Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Oslecamo]

Here's a fairly high-ranking Chaos list in my area
...
Undivided Prince with Warptime (painted red)

Of course it's better! Everybody knows red unz go fastah! I bet he isn't paying any points for that stealth upgrade!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well yes you do get a cover save when he shoots out of that kind of unit blob as only half of his unit can see you ext ext.

Which is why you do it with genestealers or hormagaunts

Great way of stopping someone from doing this is a Vindicator.

Why? A Vindicator is a great way to make your opponent want to get a 4+ cover save. Even if he has to endanger units to get it.

But vindicators are pretty much good all the time, so whatever.

[Deth Muncher]

It's about a Comp Score of 4-6 depending on the TO and friends. He loses points for have trip Vindicator/Defiler and he loses points for having Tzeentch and Khorne in the same list. He gains points for having no lash-Princes, Plague Marines or Obliterators.

Why? It's Slaanesh and Khorne that hate each other. Or are you just talking about having psykers and antipsykers in the same list?

[Winterwind]

Haha, nice! While rather restricted in terms of battlefield application, I applaud the creativity.

Creative, maybe, but I'm pretty sure the rules were not made for that kind of abuse.

I have a local guard player that does that once his Chimera's are destroyed winterwind. Just think of how much of a PITA it is when it comes to assaulting this unit as well ahha.

I think the best thing to do then is just assaulting both units at once. It makes it a lot simplier, and them being Imperial Guard you probably want to do that anyway.

It's amazing just how much difference a Squad formation can make, if you really put your mind to it. I haven't yet come across a serious discussion and dissection of the subject on the internet, but to be fair I haven't looked all that hard because it seems like the determined route to Power Gaming.

I do NOT use that phrase as a put-down or insult, as it's a perfectly legitimate way to play the game and maximize one's advantages, but just as an observation; I am not yet that ready to be that serious about the game. Getting the best squad in the codex to do it's job is one thing, getting every single model in a mathematically approved position is a level of detail I'm not quite ready to deal with!

Forget what a ridiculous level of powergaming that is, my issue with that is that I think it's pretty clear abuse of rules that were never made to support something like that. The rules only want to simulate a sci-fi battle; this is something that has no basis in the "reality" of the WH40k universe, it's something that arises purely from a loophole.

Yours is an interesting diagram, Winterwind, though it suffers in practice because it requires two large sized Squads to work properly.
After quickly playing around with coloured dots in Paint, it seems that you'd need a minimum of 18 models per squad, which puts 9 on the 'inside' and 9 on the 'outside' of the formation - the bare minimum needed to make it count as 'the majority' of models being obscured from LoS (I might be wrong in the case of larger models that can be spread out to shield more than one of it's comrades, but all things being equal it seems about right).

That rules out most MEQ armies (though why Space Marines would be too upset about losing a 4+ Cover Save, we'll never know) due to small squad sizes, but Hordes would love it. Ork Boyz, Tyranid Gaunts.... even Eldar Guardians can do it on a small scale.
And I guess it's a nice thing to know if you're playing as Black Templars or a Death Company-heavy Blood Angels army for such emergencies as suddenly find yourself on the wrong end of a squad of Fire Dragons or something.

Seems accurate. Of course, you'll only want to do it when playing against heavily armoured opponents or when you absolutely need that cover save, now, and have nothing to hide in; also, you will probably only want to do it with ranged units, because I think you need a minimum of one turn just to untangle that formation so it can move again.

If you really wanted to do it with MEQ's and their small squads, I think a 'Chess-board' setup might work:

A_B_A_B
B_A_B_A
A_B_A_B

I've done it with 2 squads of 6 models, and I think the outcome is the same - no matter where the enemy is, they can only ever see up to half models of each Squad, which diminishes as the squads get bigger. Again, it's not very practical for the purposes of movement and the likes, but this also has the advantage of spreading the two squads out evenly - one well-placed Template won't immediately disrupt the maths by wiping out a dense concentration of one squad or the other.

[Note: Feel free to correct me if I've missed something vital - it's nearly 2am and I'm aware that I'm not all here as I type - but it looks about right from what I can tell ]

Is that legal? I mean, with "my" formation, all models from either unit form one coherent mass that doesn't intersect with the other; with yours, the two units intersect, and I don't think that's allowed.

I'm sure there are more disgusting things that we could think of to do ranging from obvious to subtle (I think I'm on to something useful to know about Independent Characters in units that also have a 'Sergent' model, but I need to refresh my rules-lawyering before I know it for sure) but I think the important question we ought to ask ourselves is: do we really want to go down this road, end spend the rest of our gaming careers carefully nudging alternating-coloured Orks 1/8th of an inch to the left every turn, just to be absolutely sure it's in the best possible position?

Hey, I'm outlining things I consider to be abuse of rules, not something to strive for.

The aspect of this I'd be more interested in discussing is, what should one say to a player who actually does something like that? I mean, the rules are clearly on their side, but the spirit of the rules lies moaning in the corner in uttermost pain...

I'm sorry, but if somebody I played against actually took the time to specifically position his squads in intricate patters that wrapped around each other so as to grant a permanent cover save, I would:

1- Argue that since his guys have to fire through each other and be careful with their aim, my units also recieve a 4+ cover save from either unit firing at me, either granting me a decent save or halfing his firepower.

Yes, but you play Orcs. You would actually benefit from getting a 4+ cover. Anyone who already has good armour would not benefit from it at all.

2- Lever play against him again.

A wise approach.

[Trixie]

Well, there are also those silly shenanigans of the type "I make a loooong line of models spaced apart as far as possible stretching from my actual formation to something that gives a bonus to everything around it.

Like this:
O.O.O.O
O.O.O.O..O..O..O..O..O......M
O.O.O.O
O.O.O.O

I take you never saw Kroot konga line of instantwin?

_BBBBAAAA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
BAAAABBBBA
_BBBBBAAAA

A_B_A_B
B_A_B_A
A_B_A_B

They can't really move. How about this one:

A_A_A_A_
_B_B_B_B
A_A_A_A_
_B_B_B_B

Here, the formation can move both front/rear and to the sides. Sure, diagonal move is hurt, but you can't have everything. Also, a bit less compact, so plates hurt less, while still in coherency.

You would actually benefit from getting a 4+ cover. Anyone who already has good armour would not benefit from it at all.

*cough* Vindicator/Russ/Defiler/Earthshaker/etc *cough*

[Winterwind]

I take you never saw Kroot konga line of instantwin?

No, I haven't. What is that supposed to be?

They can't really move. How about this one:

A_A_A_A_
_B_B_B_B
A_A_A_A_
_B_B_B_B

Here, the formation can move both front/rear and to the sides. Sure, diagonal move is hurt, but you can't have everything. Also, a bit less compact, so plates hurt less, while still in coherency.

You will need at least three ranks for each unit though, else you do not have more than half of the unit covered. Also, it's not protected at all if the enemy is shooting from the side.

*cough* Vindicator/Russ/Defiler/Earthshaker/etc *cough*

If you can wrap entire units consisting of Vindicators/Leman Russes/Defilers/Earthshakers around each other, I will be really impressed (especially as only one of these comes in squadrons).

Or with less sarcasm, if you reread the section you quoted there, you might notice it was referring to the cover save the opponent at whom the units that are wrapped around each other shoot gets.

[Wraith]

Is that legal? I mean, with "my" formation, all models from either unit form one coherent mass that doesn't intersect with the other; with yours, the two units intersect, and I don't think that's allowed.

I *think* so. I flicked through the rulebook and the only thing I found about intersecting units was when one of them was fleeing and bumped into another, which is a valid point.
If either unit in the formation breaks, they will insta-gib because they're automatically moving within 1" of another unit. Beyond that though, I couldn't see much else that disallows it.

Then again, it was 2am. I wasn't looking all that hard.

The aspect of this I'd be more interested in discussing is, what should one say to a player who actually does something like that? I mean, the rules are clearly on their side, but the spirit of the rules lies moaning in the corner in uttermost pain...

I think Lycan has the best approach to a casual game. If you're there playing just for your own amusement, then this sort of behaviour is far below acceptable, on par with other Rule Lawyering that generally make the game less fun but aren't, strictly speaking, against the rules. If that's not the game you want to play, don't play it.

The best way to get around it is to talk with your opponent before you play about how much 'fun' you expect to have. If you're in a very informal setting, make it clear that you'll probably not use the most strict adherence to every single rule in favour of using the Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny.
If they still don't get it and try to min-max their setup to such horrific extents, I think the resulting game will probably see to it that their reputation drops through the floor and no one will want to play them again.

In a Tournament though.... Not much you CAN do about it. You could appeal to the Referee about Spirit of the Game, but I suspect that you'll generally falter in the face of cold, hard RaW (and lose sportsmanship points into the bargain for accusing your opponent of being 'unfair').
Give their Sportsmanship a good, hard kick into the gutter, play the game as best you can and know that you will at least emerge the Moral Victor of the tale.

No, I haven't. What is that supposed to be?

Imagine the scene: On one side, a Space Marine player whose army consists entirely of Kor'sarro Khan, Bikes and other Scouting units. ENTIRELY. Basically, a White Scars themed army.
On the other, a Tau player who has one large unit of Kroot.

The Tau Player sets up, and the White Scars player states that his entire army is in Reserves. So in his first turn, the Tau player Infiltrates his Kroot unit and places them along his opponent's table edge - stretching coherency as far as it will go, it ends up with a single Kroot unit stretched across from table edge to table edge.

And then the White Scar player loses, because there is absolutely no point on the table where his Reserves can enter the game without moving within 1" of an enemy (Kroot) model.

They can't really move. How about this one:

Nope, they're fine.The rule is written "Models may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting", which specifically excludes friendly models.
It's perfectly fine to move one friendly unit through another, so long as neither of them are Falling Back. Unless of course you;re only referring to the practicalities of moving two intertwined units through each other in order to receive a mechanical bonus, in which case you're clearly not Power Gaming hard enough!

Similarly, I don't think your setup works as intended because the models in it are staggered like that, in each others' "gaps". It means that an enemy shooting from the front (The "top of the page" in this case) can see the front rank of both squads clearly - there are no bodies in the way to obscure them, meaning that they're not in cover.
The B rank will receive a cover save, as the rulebook states that they would under the same circumstances as shooting through some scenery or something (specifically, through the think trunks of trees), but the A rank's front line is not obscured at all. You would need to add more ranks, so that more models were hidden away from the enemy - at the moment, they're only in partial cover simply because less than half of the unit is obscured.

[crazedloon]

actually the set up with 2 units over lapping
a:1-1-1-1-1
b:2-2-2-2-2
c:1-1-1-1-1
d:2-2-2-2-2

works because unit 2 has half of its unit (really all of it) behind another unit and unit 1 has half (line c) its unit behind the other unit. you do not actually need to place the models behind each other to block line of sight because any line which passes through another unit causes cover.

It is a well known "loophole" (at least around here) that will immediately get you laughed at for trying in game.

[Cheesegear]

Why? It's Slaanesh and Khorne that hate each other. Or are you just talking about having psykers and antipsykers in the same list?

I think maybe he loses points for having two Daemon Princes. Not as bad as having two Princ(ess)es of Slaanesh. But, still, two Princes.

[crazedloon]

its actually tzeench and Khorne who hate eachother the one being the paragon of chaos magic and the other hating the very concept and use of magic

And if you are really loosing points because you take 2 HQ options in a list that is a little ridiculous particularly if it can loose you a tournament (or at least a higher position in the rankings.)

[lord_khaine]

its actually tzeench and Khorne who hate eachother the one being the paragon of chaos magic and the other hating the very concept and use of magic

Hmm? according to my material its Khorne and Slanash who hates each other.

[Gauntlet]

I believe pretty much every pair of chaos gods have mutual hatred.

[evisiron]

its actually tzeench and Khorne who hate eachother the one being the paragon of chaos magic and the other hating the very concept and use of magic

It changes through the alterations in codex and setting, but traditionally Tzeentch is opposed to Nurgle, as while Tzeentch changes, mutates and evolves (all the while planning and scheming) Nurgle merely reduces everything to the same base form through rot and decay.

Slaanesh is set against Khorne as Slaanesh will often use subtlety and deceit to corrupt foes from within, seizing control without a weapon being drawn. This detracts from Khornes drive for (potentially mindless) bloodshed.

Keeping it brief of course, but those are the basics as I have read them.

[Deth Muncher]

It changes through the alterations in codex and setting, but traditionally Tzeentch is opposed to Nurgle, as while Tzeentch changes, mutates and evolves (all the while planning and scheming) Nurgle merely reduces everything to the same base form through rot and decay.

Slaanesh is set against Khorne as Slaanesh will often use subtlety and deceit to corrupt foes from within, seizing control without a weapon being drawn. This detracts from Khornes drive for (potentially mindless) bloodshed.

Keeping it brief of course, but those are the basics as I have read them.

This is basically what is in the last codex (not the most recent). However,

I believe pretty much every pair of chaos gods have mutual hatred.

Also this.

But further back to point:

I think maybe he loses points for having two Daemon Princes. Not as bad as having two Princ(ess)es of Slaanesh. But, still, two Princes.

Yeah, okay, I'll give you that one.

[Cheesegear]

And if you are really loosing points because you take 2 HQ options in a list that is a little ridiculous particularly if it can loose you a tournament (or at least a higher position in the rankings.)

Composition Scores are designed to screw you over. Of course you're going to win if you rock up with a b0rked list. However, that being said, you've got a b0rked list. Does that take skill to win with? What about the other player/s who don't have b0rked lists and still win their games? Doesn't that make them better players (at least in theory)?

Same with painting and sportsmanship. Why should you win the tournament when your army looks like a turd and you're the biggest a-hole on the planet? You shouldn't.

[crazedloon]

I simply meant that 2 princes does not seem nearly on par with rule abuse/cheating/being an A hole or the like. It seams rather silly to penalize people for making the sound strategic decisions in list composition when you are playing a strategy game. It would be like penalizing a guard player who uses cover because its better and more reliable than his normal save.

But than that is my own opinion on the matter

edit: also the "issue" with painting and sportsmanship is non existent in my opinion because like the strategy of the game they are integral parts of the game. Its a game where you collect and paint an army, and playing the game is not just how you use the rules but how you act while doing it. You can play ruthlessly but be a very nice opponent and amiable the entire time (some of the games which stand out in my mind are actually the ones where I have my face kicked in on the table but my opponents are really nice and we have a good time playing the game.)

[Cheesegear]

It seams rather silly to penalize people for making the sound strategic decisions in list composition when you are playing a strategy game.

It's also designed so that people don't keep taking the same list over, and over, and over again. Or, at least it's supposed to stop two players showing up with exactly the same list (Net-Listers). It also allows parity between armies. As I've said more than once, 40K isn't actually fair.

What's the point in playing if you already know who's going to win? Especially at a tournament. What's the point in playing if your opponent shows up with 1500 points worth of Infantry Squads and 200 points of HQ? Forfeit on Turn 1. Don't even bother. Tournaments are awesome fun. Don't you just want to go to that?

Composition Scores are to encourage balance in people's lists. Or, to encourage fairness, at least.

But, you're right. There's Battle Points. You get a prize for topping each score (Battle, Painting, Sportsmanship). However, the only score people care about is Painting. As Sportsmanship is pretty easy to get if you aren't retarded, and winning Battle just means, great, you've got a great/b0rked/broken list and/or you abused the rules into winning. Good for you! *thumbs up* Want a mint?
Or, you're just simply an amazing general. But, very rarely have I seen 'just, simply good players' win Battle Scores.

Best Painted, and Best Overall (across all three scores) are usually the only prizes people make a fuss over. And getting Best Overall usually means you need a decent Comp Score. As I said, winning with a non-b0rked list takes a lot more effort. And you're recognised as such and you get points for it.


I also know, for a fact, that not every country uses Comp Scores (they're prevalent in Australia), and I know the US is one of countries that usually doesn't (some people have very demeaning guesses to why this is...However, if those guesses were correct, I wouldn't be surprised).

[Closet_Skeleton]

Imagine the scene: On one side, a Space Marine player whose army consists entirely of Kor'sarro Khan, Bikes and other Scouting units. ENTIRELY. Basically, a White Scars themed army.
On the other, a Tau player who has one large unit of Kroot.

The Tau Player sets up, and the White Scars player states that his entire army is in Reserves. So in his first turn, the Tau player Infiltrates his Kroot unit and places them along his opponent's table edge - stretching coherency as far as it will go, it ends up with a single Kroot unit stretched across from table edge to table edge.

And then the White Scar player loses, because there is absolutely no point on the table where his Reserves can enter the game without moving within 1" of an enemy (Kroot) model.

Except your example sucks because Kor'sarro Khan lets you outflank. So you'd need at least four kroot units.

The more likely thing to happen is a dawn of war deployment where the other player elects to not deploy his two troops and one HQ.

I've never seen comp scores in Wales, but the only tournaments I went to were run by the same people so there wouldn't be too much differance between them.

[Trixie]

Except your example sucks because Kor'sarro Khan lets you outflank. So you'd need at least four kroot units.

Sucks? If you spend 10 seconds typing that exact sentence into Google, you'd find out that it actually happened, and it is in fact one of the most famous Warhammer photos:

Here, WS player and a judge try to find a way out of this, while Kroot player grins.

[Cheesegear]

Except your example sucks because Kor'sarro Khan lets you outflank. So you'd need at least three kroot units.

Fixed. White Scars aren't Wolf Scouts or Snikrot's Kommandos. You don't need to cover your own table edge.

Still, the opponent only needs to put one unit of Bikes on the table, then, 'open a hole' by using Twin-Linked Relentless Bolters into Kroot. It'll work.


Assuming 6x4' table...You'd need about 25-30 Kroot to cover the 6' side. And about 15-20 to cover the 4' sides.
...Around 400 points worth of Kroot, about 55-60 models (3-4 squads). Certainly doable. I've seen a picture of it...

OH! Hey, Trixie posted it.

Here, WS player and a judge try to find a way out of this, while Kroot player grins.

Fail. Kor'Sarro Outflanks. Use the other table edges. Although I'd have to wonder why you declared that you were using Reserves instead of using Outflank. Which is the only way that could've happened. And why wouldn't you outflank? It's amazing.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Fail. Kor'Sarro Outflanks. Use the other table edges. Although I'd have to wonder why you declared that you were using Reserves instead of using Outflank. Which is the only way that could've happened. And why wouldn't you outflank? It's amazing.

Aargh. I hate when people get this wrong.

He didn't have Khan, that was the entire point. The tournament he was at didn't allow any special characters. It was an all-Bike White Scars army, without Khan.

No. Khan.

[lord_khaine]

In that case, what was the idea of having his entire army in reserve?

[Wraith]

Fail. Kor'Sarro Outflanks. Use the other table edges. Although I'd have to wonder why you declared that you were using Reserves instead of using Outflank. Which is the only way that could've happened. And why wouldn't you outflank? It's amazing.

Okay, I admit that one remark was my one and only exaggeration. In actuality it was just a normal Chapter Master on a Bike, I think, but with that in mind you can probably see where I made the "Chapter Master + White Scars = Kor'Sarro" mistake.

Not that bad, to say I haven't read the actual story for months and paraphrased it off the top of my head, right?

Sucks? If you spend 10 seconds typing that exact sentence into Google, you'd find out that it actually happened

Thank you, Trixie, for backing me up. I know I occasionally make mistakes, but I don't blatantly just make things up for the heck of it.

Here, WS player and a judge try to find a way out of this, while Kroot player grins.

I love that picture, just for the caption that goes with it.

White Scars Player: "C'mon man, there has to be something in there that lets me play the game!?"
Referee: "I.... I... I just don't know what is happening. All the BBB does is refer me to something about 'Tactical Genius'...."
Kroot Player: "Hurr hurr hurr Creed Hurr hurr hurr!"

In that case, what was the idea of having his entire army in reserve?

Your opponent spends an entire turn with nothing to shoot at and nothing to Assault, and you automatically get to setup however you want that best counters your opponent while also effectively getting the 'first turn' when your guys arrive.

It's an interesting alternative to the traditional method of denying your opponent any achievable goals and granting yourself an automatic "Second Setup" - which is having the entire army arrive via Drop-Pods and Deep Striking - with the added bonuses of less scattering and the raw awesomeness of lots of Bikes.

[Cheesegear]

It's an interesting alternative to the traditional method of denying your opponent any achievable goals and granting yourself an automatic "Second Setup" - which is having the entire army arrive via Drop-Pods and Deep Striking - with the added bonuses of less scattering and the raw awesomeness of lots of Bikes.

Yeah, I fully, and 100% am behind Reactive Deployment. I love Infiltrators more than you could possibly imagine and I love Drop Pods only slightly less than that. The Scouts rule is a potential make-or-break move for the unit before the game even starts, etc.

In short; Reactive Deployment is for winners. You get to see your opponent deploy, then make an optimal choice for dealing with said deployment. Deploying second anyway is pretty much the same thing. Except doesn't come with 'going first' which can be super-great for a Static Shooting army. >.>

But, as it turns out, the guy didn't have Kor'Sarro, so what could possibly have been the reason to put his army in reserve? None of it comes on in the first turn (your opponent would still have nothing to shoot at in the first turn if you went second, and were using Drop Podsanyway or something), and, beyond that, without Outflank, you only get to come on in your own deployment zone, you don't get to rush objectives from the side of the table. No hitting tanks in the arse-armour, no hitting your opponent's super-units that are 'protected' by the units in front of it, etc.

And that's not even saying that Reserves are unreliable to begin with. Which I just did. Tigurius and Kor'Sarro work together rather nicely.

...There's simply no benefit to having Reserves come on in your own deployment zone. It's why Dawn of War sucks. So. Much. It's why that picture frustrates me.
The player with the White Scars isn't using Kor'Sarro's Outflank (which I just found out that he couldn't anyway), so why is he using Reserves? Let alone his entire army.

...Maximum Reserves is about 3 units. And only then if you've got something amazing to help them out, like half of them arriving on Turn 1, or +Reserve Rolls.

The player with the Kroot made an extremely opportunistic move. Which he should never have been able to do. I applaud him for his creativity. But, it would only happen once. And only against...Well, someone making horrendous tactical errors.

[Shas aia Toriia]

The player with the Kroot made an extremely opportunistic move. Which he should never have been able to do. I applaud him for his creativity.

That kroot player made an AWESOME move. He should get a medal or something.

[Winterwind]

Regarding that "Which Chaos God opposes whom?" thing, it's like this: While it's indeed Slaanesh who opposes Khorne and Nurgle who opposes Tzeentch, Khorne has an additional dislike for Tzeentch (due to thinking sorcery is cowardly) on top of being the antithesis of Slaanesh.

So when it comes to which Chaos God gets along with whom (mind, they will still fight each other whenever they think they can gain some benefit from it, they just do not harbour any perpetual hatred for each other), it's:
Khorne gets along with Nurgle
Slaanesh gets along with Nurgle and Tzeentch
Nurgle gets along with Nurgle and Slaanesh
Tzeentch gets along with Slaanesh

The holy numbers of the gods (6 for Slaanesh, 7 for Nurgle, 8 for Khorne and 9 for Tzeentch) are, by the way, arranged it such a fashion that no two gods who are the direct antithesis of each other have holy numbers that are right next to each other.

I *think* so. I flicked through the rulebook and the only thing I found about intersecting units was when one of them was fleeing and bumped into another, which is a valid point.
If either unit in the formation breaks, they will insta-gib because they're automatically moving within 1" of another unit. Beyond that though, I couldn't see much else that disallows it.

Then again, it was 2am. I wasn't looking all that hard.

Hmmm... if that's true, it would mean friendly units could walk through each other without a problem. So much time I wasted manouvering them around each other...

Oh well, I still will. Intersecting units do not look cool.

I think Lycan has the best approach to a casual game. If you're there playing just for your own amusement, then this sort of behaviour is far below acceptable, on par with other Rule Lawyering that generally make the game less fun but aren't, strictly speaking, against the rules. If that's not the game you want to play, don't play it.

The best way to get around it is to talk with your opponent before you play about how much 'fun' you expect to have. If you're in a very informal setting, make it clear that you'll probably not use the most strict adherence to every single rule in favour of using the Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny.
If they still don't get it and try to min-max their setup to such horrific extents, I think the resulting game will probably see to it that their reputation drops through the floor and no one will want to play them again.

I'm somewhat afraid people here might instead think it's a creative way of viewing the rules and deem me unsportsmanlike for protesting it in the first place...

Imagine the scene: On one side, a Space Marine player whose army consists entirely of Kor'sarro Khan, Bikes and other Scouting units. ENTIRELY. Basically, a White Scars themed army.
On the other, a Tau player who has one large unit of Kroot.

The Tau Player sets up, and the White Scars player states that his entire army is in Reserves. So in his first turn, the Tau player Infiltrates his Kroot unit and places them along his opponent's table edge - stretching coherency as far as it will go, it ends up with a single Kroot unit stretched across from table edge to table edge.

And then the White Scar player loses, because there is absolutely no point on the table where his Reserves can enter the game without moving within 1" of an enemy (Kroot) model.

Ohhh, I see. That's hilarious indeed.

Though I agree with Cheesegear. Why would the White Scars player choose to keep his entire army in Reserve in the first place? Especially against something as shooty as Tau, this sounds like an awful idea, allowing them to shoot your units one by one...

[Shas aia Toriia]

Though I agree with Cheesegear. Why would the White Scars player choose to keep his entire army in Reserve in the first place? Especially against something as shooty as Tau, this sounds like an awful idea, allowing them to shoot your units one by one...

Its a very kroot heavy list, so not as much shooting. Though it will still allow them to melee you down one unit at a time, of course.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Fixed. White Scars aren't Wolf Scouts or Snikrot's Kommandos. You don't need to cover your own table edge.

Assuming 6x4' table...You'd need about 25-30 Kroot to cover the 6' side. And about 15-20 to cover the 4' sides.
...Around 400 points worth of Kroot, about 55-60 models (3-4 squads). Certainly doable. I've seen a picture of it...

I said four because I wasn't sure you could really cover an entire long table edge with one unit (at least not unless it was one of those impractical max sized units you probably shouldn't take)

There are plenty of players who choose not to deploy any models at the start of Dawn of War deployment games, thinking that it keeps them safe and doesn't matter since your entire army comes on as automatic reserves on the first turn unless you choose to put them in proper reserve. They also might not want to put 1 HQ and 2 troops forwards without any support. Infiltrating units could be used to screw such a player over.

This is of course stupid when you think of it since dawn of war also gives the first turn nightfighting and therefore you can put your 2 troops 1 hq near your lines and keep them safe.

...There's simply no benefit to having Reserves come on in your own deployment zone. It's why Dawn of War sucks. So. Much.

It's meant to be differant and challanging.

Dawn of War also doesn't force you to use reserves since they're not proper reserves and always come on turn 1. What it actually does is give you a tiny deploment zone and lets 2 troops and a hq have a crappy form of infiltrate/scout.

[Cheesegear]

Nurgle gets along with Nurgle and Slaanesh

It's good to see that Papa Nurgle loves himself. Maybe that's how he can love everyone else so easily. Khorne clearly has all that anger and aggression directed at himself, and clearly has a Napolean Complex.

I'm somewhat afraid people here might instead think it's a creative way of viewing the rules and deem me unsportsmanlike for protesting it in the first place...

Just because it's 'creative abuse', doesn't stop it being from still being 'abuse'. Every time your opponent pulls something that you don't think should work, pull out your rulebook. Make them show you their Codex. At least find out how their crap works. And if it is abusive reading of the rules, you can still call them out on it and never play them again.

Forcing people to show me (not just tell me) how stuff works, is how I ended up telling my opponent that Devourers don't work for Pinning checks. And Barbed Strangler+Devourer Warriors are nowhere near as good as people think.

Speaking of which, the FAQ says Mawlocs can intentionally Deep Strike onto enemy models.

[Lycan 01]

Speaking of which, the FAQ says Mawlocs can intentionally Deep Strike onto enemy models.

I noticed that. I will admit, I chuckled at the irony.