Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Cheesegear]

Against Imperial Guard, maybe. Try anything with T5+ and tell us how it went

Against anything T5, Grey Knights should be Assaulting with their S6. Yes. All of them have S6.

Really, in pretty much any normal situation GK are good, Sternies are better

Except in Assault and prolonged firefights. Like if your opponent is a similar shooty unit with 4+ (or better) save and 4+ (or better) cover, which happens all the time. At least to me it does.

Second, as I am really am taking this into consideration, what if I don't use Pedro? What if I use Tigurius, He'Stan or Lysander? The Sternguard are no longer Scoring, wheras the Grey Knights are, and due to Shrouding and Aegis, aren't likely to die so easily.

Wait, maybe my memory is faulty but in recent BT discussion someone claimed psykers aren't that dangerous at all, eh?

Maybe your memory is faulty?

I never said that at all (at least I don't believe I did, feel free to find it, and I will concede). I said that psykers weren't dangerous against Black Templars with the proper vow, or against Grey Knights with Psychic Hoods.

Why would I say psykers aren't dangerous when I consistently, and frequently use one? Instead of Lysander who I consider the best character in the Codex? Pretty sure you're just making stuff up, or leaving out key points of my sentences, or ignoring further points of my argument.

Or, that 'someone' you mentioned wasn't me. But, it certainly sounded like you were trying to Straw Man me, there.

IMHO, now that practically every single definition from DH Codex (especially what is considered to be Daemon) is outdated and you lose most of powerful rules, vs new and fresh Codex with unit specifically geared to counter all existing threats...

No. What is considered 'Daemon' is still in play. The only thing that no longer applies is '50 points worth of Daemonic Gifts'. Everything else is still valid.

The 'Daemonic Instability' rules no longer exist. That's it. And Daemonic Infestation is now even better for Daemon players. Except that no-one plays Chaos Daemons. So I don't even care.

The Aegis and the Shrouding, Fearless with 3+ Armour, and True Grit and 'everyone is S6' still exist. And those are the Grey Knights' most powerful abilities. Please know what you're talking about before you claim that I don't know what I'm talking about.

What, are they welded into it?

Apparently so.

Then why all the commentary on Pedro/Lysander from you focused on GK Heroes?

Because I didn't. I never actually said what Pedro would be. Considering that he makes Sternguard Scoring, I had always planned on making him a Deathwatch Captain.

Lysander, a totally different person, with entirely different rules, was slated to be a Grey Knight Hero completely irrespective of Pedro. However, even then, probably not, as I have recently come across a ripping conversion to make Lysander into Deathwatch.
Although I can just make both. I have a decent GK-Lysander conversion as well.

With what you described about your FLGS, only by converting the actual IC model you'll get a pass, and I'm not sure even about that :P

Well, that's not true at all. Who told you that? It certainly wasn't me. I've got a dozen of converted characters. Yeah. About a dozen. I don't think I'm using hyperbole there.

Hang on, I'm on the internet, I've got heaps of time before I press 'Post'...I can go check...

Okay, I've got 11 characters that are not official models. Each and every one is allowable. So, I don't know what you're talking about.

As for why - unless all you want to ID are Eldar, well, PF will be better in most cases.

Maybe. But, 25 points to lose an attack, and go last? Considering that you're already S6 at Initiative value? It would be better in most cases, but it's not worth the points. Generally, when you pay more points, things are better. I'm not going to dispute that.
But, the Justiciar is now 75 points. F* that. How 'bout I get Melta Bombs instead?

[Incomp]

Except that no-one plays Chaos Daemons. So I don't even care.

Thank you, Cheesegear and Closet Skeleton, for your stellar defenses of GK. (I'm a GK player myself)

But I am offended. I play Chaos Daemons, thank you.

[Arcanoi]

But I am offended. I play Chaos Daemons, thank you.

Get used to it. I play Daemons too, and I got used to it about the time a new guy came into my FLGS with some swanky-looking Grey Knights and asked if anyone played Chaos Daemons, to which a regular answered that no, nobody did. I'd played him with my daemons the weak before.

[Lycan 01]

So the guy you played against lied so you wouldn't have to deal with the GK player, in case he was a jerk or powergamer? Am I reading that right?



Might see about attending a 40K tournament next week with my Space Marine buddy. Kind of a last Hoo-Rah before he heads off to college and basically quits the hobby. I'm basically gonna do a model blitz this week, and force myself to finish my Orks. Do I feel confident going to a local tournament, even a small unofficial one? Balls no. They're gonna stomp me into the dirt, especially if That Guy - y'know, the one who called my friend gay for playing Space Wolves and tried to convince me Orks suck - is there and tries to challenge me to a game. But I think it'd be fun to at least try, and maybe there will be a few friendly players who just want to have a fun casual game or two. I mean, I don't claim to be good at 40K. I'm still rusty on several rules, like terrain and buildings. But at least I'm a good sport?



Actually, that brings up a good point. What do you do at a gaming club if That Guy tries to challenge you to a game? Y'know, the powergamer who knows he can beat you, and just wants to see you squirm? Is it good sportsmanship to turn down his challenge, or do you lose respect and favor for that in the eyes of the other players?

[Arcanoi]

So the guy you played against lied so you wouldn't have to deal with the GK player, in case he was a jerk or powergamer? Am I reading that right?

Nope. He forgot I played Daemons.

He remembered after I went over and tapped his shoulder, and then I played a rather enjoyable game with the affable fellow who is now a regular at our store. Highpoint, Grey Knight squad charges a unit of Bloodletters and wipes them out to the last man with one casualty, only to be counter-charged on my turn and wiped out by another squad that took no casualties at all.

Actually, that brings up a good point. What do you do at a gaming club if That Guy tries to challenge you to a game? Y'know, the powergamer who knows he can beat you, and just wants to see you squirm? Is it good sportsmanship to turn down his challenge, or do you lose respect and favor for that in the eyes of the other players?

Chances are that if That Guy is that That Guyish, everyone at the store knows exactly how That Guyish That Guy is, and anyone who loses respect for you abstaining from a game isn't someone whose respect you really need.

[Incomp]

I agree with DCGFTW. That Guy is no one to concern yourself over, and if you don't have fun, don't play him. He's a douche, and therefore, no one cares if you won't accept his challenge. Don't worry about it.

And by the way, at my gaming club alone, I know that at least three other players have daemons armies. So there.

And as for the revenge of the bloodletters, I'm not sure if that's sad or awesome, since I have loyalties to both sides.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Actually, that brings up a good point. What do you do at a gaming club if That Guy tries to challenge you to a game? Y'know, the powergamer who knows he can beat you, and just wants to see you squirm? Is it good sportsmanship to turn down his challenge, or do you lose respect and favor for that in the eyes of the other players?

My community might be a special case, because Cheddar (from Bega), as he is known, is a great sport and a pretty cool guy to be around in general.
He just knows all the rules incredibly well, and can see synergy where others can't. Hell, he annihilated Conflict with a 4/5 for composition. Since then, his list became a 0/5; a forced rewrite.
People play him to learn more about the game, mostly. He's a very good general, and after all, you learn more from a loss than a win.

[lord_khaine]

I've seen plenty of lists in which a farseer isn't sitting in a Wave Serpent so he doesn't waste 300 points on himself, the Wave Serpent, and a bodyguard unit as well, and plenty of games where the Farseer wasn't inexplicably able to sit in a Wave Serpent all game and still matter in the game.

Really, how does he waste 300 points on himself?

Noone buys a farseer for their impressive battle skills, they take them for their psykic powers.
And since he is able to use his powers from inside the Wave serpent, then its just about the best place for him to sit, since it offers him some decent protection, and allows him to get around the battlefield to where his powers are needet.

[Wraith]

Really, how does he waste 300 points on himself?

Noone buys a farseer for their impressive battle skills, they take them for their psykic powers.

I respectfully disagree, in the strongest possible terms. A Farseer and a half-dozen Warlocks with Singing Spears and the Enhance power will do awful things to virtually any (non-Apocalypse) vehicle, Monstrous Creature or High Toughness/Low Save unit (Tyranids?) in the game.

THEN you give the Farseer a couple of powers, and that's when it starts getting funny as they start carving into High Toughness/Mid Save units (Ork Nobs, Bikers) as well!

[Closet_Skeleton]

The 'Daemonic Instability' rules no longer exist. That's it. And Daemonic Infestation is now even better for Daemon players. Except that no-one plays Chaos Daemons. So I don't even care.

Daemonic infestation doesnt' technically do anything since there's no "sustained attack" scenario rule in the current rule book (even though what it does is obvious just from reading the Daemonhunters codex) and it only applies to the old chaos space marine units 'daemonic packs' and 'daemonic beast packs', not the plague bearers, flamers and bloodletters that made up those packs. Well, it also effects nurglings, but giving just nurglings a non existant scenario rule doesn't really help daemons.

Of course, that not working is actually in the favour of Grey knights. Woo-hoo.

Kind of a last Hoo-Rah before he heads off to college and basically quits the hobby.

Funny, I only got back into this hobby because I went to college and there were people to play there.

[Incomp]

One would imagine the players would be reasonable, and decide that "daemonic packs" would apply to daemon troops choices (being bloodletters, daemonettes, plaguebearers, nurglings, and horrors) and "daemonic beast packs" would apply to...furies, screamers, and flesh hounds, I guess.

But I have a side question: Why would anyone want to take nurglings, ever? I mean, maybe as objective squatters, but they're instakilled easily and have a poor save, and it's not like they're even that cheap.

[Cheesegear]

But I have a side question: Why would anyone want to take nurglings, ever? I mean, maybe as objective squatters

As per Page 90. Swarms are not Scoring. Nurglings don't even hold objectives.

but they're instakilled easily and have a poor save, and it's not like they're even that cheap.

Daemons can not be insta-killed and most daemons have a poor save. So I don't see what the problem is there.

To answer your question though, Nurglings get exponentially better the more you have of them since they have three wounds (and Eternal Warrior) and attacks each. They last for a long, long time if they aren't hit by Flamers and the like.

Add Epidemius into the mix. If your opponent claims that Nurglings aren't 'Daemons of Nurgle', punch him in the mouth, then continue playing.

[lord_khaine]

I respectfully disagree, in the strongest possible terms. A Farseer and a half-dozen Warlocks with Singing Spears and the Enhance power will do awful things to virtually any (non-Apocalypse) vehicle, Monstrous Creature or High Toughness/Low Save unit (Tyranids?) in the game.

THEN you give the Farseer a couple of powers, and that's when it starts getting funny as they start carving into High Toughness/Mid Save units (Ork Nobs, Bikers) as well!

Well, the psychic powers are still the reason you take the Farseer and his buddies instead of 10 fire dragons, who are also able to roast most things that gets to close.

[Gauntlet]

Also, Fire Dragons take up a valuable Elites slot.

[Wraith]

You're saying that Fire Dragons and Warlocks are virtually the same apart from Powers, lord_khaine?

Really?

What, are they (Grey Knight Terminators) welded into it? (Terminator Armour)

Not just GKT's. All Terminators are:

Spoiler

Show

Alright, not specifically what you were asking I know, but that's always a cool picture worth showing off

[MountainKing]

Well, the psychic powers are still the reason you take the Farseer and his buddies instead of 10 fire dragons, who are also able to roast most things that gets to close.

I'm still not seeing the point of the Wave Serpent... I know at least my Sisters list giggles uncontrollably in the face of transports of any sort (except Land Raiders. Those get a little grim-faced instead). Heck, my Land Raider consistently brings down that one Dark Eldar HQ skimmer with "effectively" A14 on all sides; the least it's ever gotten from shooting at that guy is a Vehicle Disabled or Weapon Destroyed.

I mean, sure, it's a shot that isn't going to the Farseer's face... until they have to roll saves for vehicle asplosions.

[lord_khaine]

I'm still not seeing the point of the Wave Serpent... I know at least my Sisters list giggles uncontrollably in the face of transports of any sort (except Land Raiders. Those get a little grim-faced instead). Heck, my Land Raider consistently brings down that one Dark Eldar HQ skimmer with "effectively" A14 on all sides; the least it's ever gotten from shooting at that guy is a Vehicle Disabled or Weapon Destroyed.

I mean, sure, it's a shot that isn't going to the Farseer's face... until they have to roll saves for vehicle asplosions.

Its a skimmer that can move up to 36 in a singel turn, depending on how much you upgrade it.

This means that it will consistently either be in total cover, and therefore not shot at, or else still have a 4+ cover safe from moving very fast.

And even in the situation where where it might get shot down, then fortune will make sure the following explosion is a minor annoyance.

Meanwhile, the rest of my army have been free to blow the landraider apart with brightlance and Maugetar fire, while it has been busy with the wave serpent.

[Psychotic]

Its a skimmer that can move up to 36 in a singel turn, depending on how much you upgrade it.

This means that it will consistently either be in total cover, and therefore not shot at, or else still have a 4+ cover safe from moving very fast.

And even in the situation where where it might get shot down, then fortune will make sure the following explosion is a minor annoyance.

Meanwhile, the rest of my army have been free to blow the landraider apart with brightlance and Maugetar fire, while it has been busy with the wave serpent.

The best shenanigans involve using Eldrad in a Wave Serpent to put fortune on his squad AND on the Wave Serpent.

[Incomp]

Daemons can not be insta-killed and most daemons have a poor save. So I don't see what the problem is there.

I can't believe myself. I play daemons. I should know that.

[Arcanoi]

I can't believe myself. I play daemons. I should know that.

They can also be used to give cover saves to Plaguebearers and Bloodletters, and can be surprisingly killy with Epidemius on the board.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Workin' on my 1500 list, trying to make use of the marines I'm about to inherit.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Librarian 130
Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter
Null Zone, Might of the Ancients

Elites

Terminator Squad (5) 480
Assault Cannon
+ Land Raider

Troops

Tactical Squad (10) 225
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant w/ Power Sword
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad (10) 225
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant w/ Power Sword
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad (10) 190
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant w/ Bolter

Heavy Support

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

Total: 1500 Points

The rhino-less squad where the Sergeant carries a mere bolter is probably a bit of an off choice, but I'm planning on using them as my defensive support while I push a Vindicator up each flank (my preferred tactic involves triple Vindi's, for both flanks and the middle, but I won't have that many even owned, let alone painted) and use the brick of Terminators + Land Raider to ruin everyone's day in the centre.

This is the first draft of a tournament list, but it's a (supposedly ) friendly tournament so I'm not too stressed over getting it perfect.

That said, what are my weaknesses? I've only ever really played against Tau, Witchunters and those blasted Chaos Marines, so I'm never really sure what my best options are.

Also, yes. My list is really, really boring slash generic. I do not care

[Incomp]

I can see nothing really glaringly wrong with the list. I would say it looks like the only thing in the army that packs real punch is the vindicators , and I'm not a fan of standard terminators. (5+ Invo saves? Ask a bloodletter how well those hold up) I don't really like standard land raiders either for the generic "Their mild anti tank abilities are anti-synergistic with their transport role" reason. I would take a redeemer; those things pack a punch, and they want to be in the teeth of the enemy.

[Cheesegear]

Workin' on my 1500 list, trying to make use of the marines I'm about to inherit.

Hmm...Well, the problem right there is, that you're using inherited models, rather than ones you picked out yourself. Anyway...

Spoiler

Show

Librarian 130
Terminator Armour, Storm Bolter
Null Zone, Might of the Ancients

It'll be alright. This guy does not have Gate. So I'm going to assume he rolls with the Terminators?

Terminator Squad (5) 480
Assault Cannon
+ Land Raider

Land Raiders aren't that good. Swap it out for a Crusader if possible. Second, don't use it as a Dedicated Transport. Put it into your spare HS slot, and that way it can carry anyone, instead of being forced to carry the Terminators - which are better off Deep Striking.

Otherwise, swap these guys out for Hammernators. Or swap them out for Lightning Claws (one Hammernator), and turn the Librarian into a Chaplain.

The setup you've got, now, is probably the least useful you could have. A Land Raider has no Fire Points. Putting shooty-Terminators inside is a waste.

Tactical Squad (10) 225
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant w/ Power Sword
+ Rhino

Kind of crap. For Rhino-squads, you're either just using it as a Firebase for the two Fire Points on it, in which case go for Plasma Cannons or Heavy Bolters, and Plasmaguns.

Or, you're running the Rhino forwards, in which case Flamer and Power Weapon, or Meltagun and Multi-Melta.

The other thing you can do is slap a Teleport Homer onto your Tactical Marines and actually get some use out of your Terminators.

Tactical Squad (10) 225
Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant w/ Power Sword
+ Rhino

Same criticism. The only solace I have is knowing that you're not actually paying points for the Missile Launcher.

Tactical Squad (10) 190
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant w/ Bolter

Yep.

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

Vindicator 125
Siege Shield

I'm not actually a fan of Siege Shields. Unless I'm playing Blood Angels and Fast and actually want to make full use out of that fact. Fortunately, it's only 20 points, and I actually can't think of anything that you should do differently (Multi-Meltas and Heavy Bolters on Tactical Squads are free).

Actually, yeah. Put a Teleport Homer on one the Tactical Squads.

Put the Land Raider in your spare Heavy Support. Transport Vehicles should never be taken as Dedicated Transports if you've got slots to spare. Granted, there aren't many of them that can be used this way (Battlewagons are the only one I can think of off the top of my head). But, still.

What's going to happen, is you use the 'Raider as a firebase, it stays put, and shoots Lascannons at tanks. Oh, wait. It's got models inside it. It should move forwards. Either swap it for a Crusader, or make the Terminators Deep Strike.

The rhino-less squad where the Sergeant carries a mere bolter is probably a bit of an off choice

It isn't. The only thing it's missing is a Power Fist.

Vindicator up each flank (my preferred tactic involves triple Vindi's, for both flanks and the middle, but I won't have that many even owned, let alone painted) and use the brick of Terminators + Land Raider to ruin everyone's day in the centre.

I'd actually put both Vindicators in the middle, and run the Land Raider up one of the flanks, while I get both Rhinos, run up the other side, and place the Line squad on an objective.
Of course, that's all subject to terrain and exactly where the LoS blockers are.

Second, regular Terminators are going to ruin relatively few peoples' day. They're not Hammernators or Chaplain-led Lightning Claws. They can't shoot their weapons whilst their in the vehicle.

In comparison to the Land Raider, the Terminators are going to do very little. Unless they Deep Strike and get placed on the board where you need them most and actually use their Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon.
...You don't buy Terminators for their Power Fists.

Also, yes. My list is really, really boring slash generic. I do not care

From personal experience, Generic = Weak. If people know how to deal with your list, then, well, they know how to deal with your list. It's why 'curveball' lists so often win. At least until 'the internet' hears about said list and it quickly becomes mainstream. But, that wont stop the curveball list from being good (if it is actually good).

If you truly want those Twin-Linked Lascannons...A single Land Raider is worth 3 Lascannon Razorbacks. With points to spare. And then you can Deep Strike the Terminators instead.

Couple of things;
1. Land Raiders are over rated. The Las Raider is considered the worst of the three - except for very specialised lists. Which this isn't.
2. Not enough Troops. Unless you Combat Squad. In which case you should have Razorbacks, not Rhinos.
3. Generic Terminators are not as good as you probably think they are. Especially in the way that you're using them.
4. Weapon combos on the Tactical Marines are definitely suboptimal. And mismatched with Rhinos.

Yeah, I know this is pretty much a list that you have no control over. But, you should think about fixing it, ASAP. Like I've said a lot of times when people are dealing with pre-assembled models; Use Knife. It's Super Effective!

Second thing, if the top hatches of the Rhino are glued down, you should be hitting whoever is giving them to you. If the hatches aren't glued down, the Razorback Upgrade sprue is one of those 'bonus' sprues that many Bitz websites and Popular Auction Sites sell on a regular basis.
Alternatively, the Land Raider Terminus Ultra upgrade from GW has the Razorback sprue in it as well. It's pretty cheap.
Then, you have the freedom to chop and change between Rhinos and Razorbacks depending on the list you're building.

Personal Opinion; Nobody should ever buy the Rhino kits. The Razorback is only 'this much' more expensive, and comes with options. In addition to the Rhino which you can use anyway.
EDIT: On the website, it appears Razorbacks and Rhinos are the same price.

[crazedloon]

EDIT: On the website, it appears Razorbacks and Rhinos are the same price.

Its not the only kit which can make 2 different vehicles but are the same price, a good example is the hammerhead/sky ray have all the same bits but the sky ray has the extra bits for the sky ray (also both have the pieces for a devilfish)

[Klose_the_Sith]

Hmm...Well, the problem right there is, that you're using inherited models, rather than ones you picked out yourself. Anyway...

Except I also own a bunch, I'm just figuring out where what he has fits into what I have. The list doesn't look much like something I'd normally run (it's my first attempt at using non-Hammernators or a Land Raider).

It'll be alright. This guy does not have Gate. So I'm going to assume he rolls with the Terminators?

My main justification for using regular Termies instead of my Hammernators is mainly that this guy just seems better suited to the role he's been set.

Land Raiders aren't that good. Swap it out for a Crusader if possible. Second, don't use it as a Dedicated Transport. Put it into your spare HS slot, and that way it can carry anyone, instead of being forced to carry the Terminators - which are better off Deep Striking.

Duly noted. Except I'd swap it out for a Crusader if I could

Otherwise, swap these guys out for Hammernators. Or swap them out for Lightning Claws (one Hammernator), and turn the Librarian into a Chaplain.

I'd still like to use my regular Termies, but oh well.

Chaplain eh? I'll look at my options ...

The setup you've got, now, is probably the least useful you could have. A Land Raider has no Fire Points. Putting shooty-Terminators inside is a waste.

Even if it just rushes them forwards for 1-2 turns before disgorging them onto the field?

Kind of crap. For Rhino-squads, you're either just using it as a Firebase for the two Fire Points on it, in which case go for Plasma Cannons or Heavy Bolters, and Plasmaguns.

Or, you're running the Rhino forwards, in which case Flamer and Power Weapon, or Meltagun and Multi-Melta.

Heavy Bolters seem pretty underwhelming to me, but oh well ...

Plasma Cannons are definitely an option.

Why not Meltagun, Multi-Melta and Power Sword? I'm always fond of my Sergeants carrying fancy swords n such. I get that you're suggesting a run-and-gun approach, but it still seems like that'll end in assault, which I'd like to be ready for.

The other thing you can do is slap a Teleport Homer onto your Tactical Marines and actually get some use out of your Terminators.

Probably good advice. Any recommendations on how to represent a teleport homer?

Same criticism. The only solace I have is knowing that you're not actually paying points for the Missile Launcher.

I like my missile launchers, they've only once failed to perform and the dice were just being weird that game. Weird I tells ya!

I'm not actually a fan of Siege Shields. Unless I'm playing Blood Angels and Fast and actually want to make full use out of that fact. Fortunately, it's only 20 points, and I actually can't think of anything that you should do differently (Multi-Meltas and Heavy Bolters on Tactical Squads are free).

Whereas I've found that Siege Shields are not only very useful, but also stuck on my models with superglue

Actually, yeah. Put a Teleport Homer on one the Tactical Squads.

I'll go into points-scrounging mode, I suppose.

Put the Land Raider in your spare Heavy Support. Transport Vehicles should never be taken as Dedicated Transports if you've got slots to spare. Granted, there aren't many of them that can be used this way (Battlewagons are the only one I can think of off the top of my head). But, still.

Wait, can't dedicated transports carry around anyone though? Isn't that explicitly stated in the rules?

*Page 67 of the rulebook*

Yes, yes they can carry anyone

What's going to happen, is you use the 'Raider as a firebase, it stays put, and shoots Lascannons at tanks. Oh, wait. It's got models inside it. It should move forwards. Either swap it for a Crusader, or make the Terminators Deep Strike.

If the Raider is really being used as a firebase then I'm pretty sure that the Termies would just get out. So yeah.

It isn't. The only thing it's missing is a Power Fist.

Which I dislike putting on Tactical squids from experience. So yeah.

I'd actually put both Vindicators in the middle, and run the Land Raider up one of the flanks, while I get both Rhinos, run up the other side, and place the Line squad on an objective.
Of course, that's all subject to terrain and exactly where the LoS blockers are.

Pretty much. It's just a pseudo-tradition of mine to flank them with 2 of the same tanks while I drive a spear through their gut.

Second, regular Terminators are going to ruin relatively few peoples' day. They're not Hammernators or Chaplain-led Lightning Claws. They can't shoot their weapons whilst their in the vehicle.

In comparison to the Land Raider, the Terminators are going to do very little. Unless they Deep Strike and get placed on the board where you need them most and actually use their Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon.
...You don't buy Terminators for their Power Fists.

It still seems like 1-2 turns of 12" move will be all they need to position themselves for a brutal firefight and I'm yet to see Termies lose a firefight.

If I'm really getting rid of that Land Raider and just deep striking them? Hmm.

Might run an assault squad@225 (Single flamer, Power fist), upgrade the Meltaguns to Plasma Rifles for 10 and then stick down a teleport homer on one of the Tac squads.

If you truly want those Twin-Linked Lascannons...A single Land Raider is worth 3 Lascannon Razorbacks. With points to spare. And then you can Deep Strike the Terminators instead.

You suggest I paint three more tanks? Madness. Pure Madness. I'll already hate finishing enough just to run the list I posted.

Couple of things;
1. Land Raiders are over rated. The Las Raider is considered the worst of the three - except for very specialised lists. Which this isn't.

Right, so chopping out the Land Raider. Goodbye shiny new toy #1.

2. Not enough Troops. Unless you Combat Squad. In which case you should have Razorbacks, not Rhinos.

Except that this way I have flexibility between combat squadding or not combat squadding as Rhinos can do both, whereas Razorbacks are locked in (Tempting as that mighty AV 11 is to use it as another tanky badass).

3. Generic Terminators are not as good as you probably think they are. Especially in the way that you're using them.

Granted. Hammernators are go!

4. Weapon combos on the Tactical Marines are definitely suboptimal. And mismatched with Rhinos.

The only thing I can see worth changing is the Meltaguns to Plasmaguns. Because Missile Launchers can fill either role, just like my Marines are meant to do.

Yeah, I know this is pretty much a list that you have no control over. But, you should think about fixing it, ASAP. Like I've said a lot of times when people are dealing with pre-assembled models; Use Knife. It's Super Effective!

Modelling? Yearch. Least favourite part of 40k

Second thing, if the top hatches of the Rhino are glued down, you should be hitting whoever is giving them to you.

That's not very nice ...

If the hatches aren't glued down, the Razorback Upgrade sprue is one of those 'bonus' sprues that many Bitz websites and Popular Auction Sites sell on a regular basis.
Alternatively, the Land Raider Terminus Ultra upgrade from GW has the Razorback sprue in it as well. It's pretty cheap.
Then, you have the freedom to chop and change between Rhinos and Razorbacks depending on the list you're building.

I'd keep it in mind were I fond of Razorbacks. I'm not particularly fond of mechanised lists at all, but thought I'd try them. Out of mechanised lists I have a slight preference for Rhinos and am yet to be impressed by Razorbacks.

Especially if there's more bloody assembly involved

[Cheesegear]

I'd still like to use my regular Termies, but oh well.

Chaplain eh? I'll look at my options ...

You can still use regular Terminators. Just don't put them in a Land Raider. They should be on foot, making full use of their Assault Cannon and Storm Bolters, or, the better option; Deep Striking.

A Librarian with regular Terminators or Hammernators works well, as he pulls his Initiative value while the rest just sit back and do nothing with their Power Fists and Hammers.

A Chaplain, in a group of Lightning Claws does scarily well. They're not as survivable as Hammernators, but, then again, they don't really have to be. But, you do have to make sure they run into a combat that they can actually win. Don't go throwing them at Monstrous Creatures (T6+) unless those MCs are down to one or two wounds.
Not being as dead 'ard as Hammernators, they need to pick their battles.

Even if it just rushes them forwards for 1-2 turns before disgorging them onto the field?

So, in other words, they spend 1-2 turns doing nothing, while another 250 points moves across the board shooting one weapon per turn?

If you Deep Strike, they'll still spend at least the first turn doing nothing. But, your 250 point model (or whatever you replace it with, should you choose to) can actually do things.

Heavy Bolters seem pretty underwhelming to me, but oh well ...

Depends who you're playing. In this list, yeah, Heavy Bolters are pretty rubbish. Especially if you've got Assault Cannons elsewhere.

Plasma Cannons are definitely an option.

In Linemen Squads? Definitely.

Why not Meltagun, Multi-Melta and Power Sword? I'm always fond of my Sergeants carrying fancy swords n such.

Mostly because whatever you're using the Melta weapons on, the Power Weapon will be useless. I'm a huge fan of Power Fists, myself. I don't really believe that the Power Weapon brings that much to the table, if you've got Power Fist instead. It gives you a fighting chance against MCs, lets you Assault vehicles when your Melta weapons fail.
Sure, it goes last in combat, but, that's what the other 9 bodies are for.

I get that you're suggesting a run-and-gun approach, but it still seems like that'll end in assault, which I'd like to be ready for.

Which is why I said that your non-Rhino squad is missing a Power Fist.

Probably good advice. Any recommendations on how to represent a teleport homer?

The one in the Terminator Box?

Converting up my Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (Scouts), I've been using Imperial Guard voxes.

I like my missile launchers, they've only once failed to perform and the dice were just being weird that game. Weird I tells ya!

I just don't think that they work well with Rhinos. However, they are free.

Whereas I've found that Siege Shields are not only very useful, but also stuck on my models with superglue

So? I think you'll find that WYSIWYG doesn't work 'the other way'. Nobody really minds when your model looks like it has something, but actually doesn't.

I've got lots of models with Power Fists, and my opponents love it when I tell them that they don't actually have PFs.

Yes, yes they can carry anyone

Not on the first turn they can't. As I've said, sometimes you may want to Deep Strike your Terminators, and, in that case, you can have your non-Rhino Squad start in the Land Raider.

If the Raider is really being used as a firebase then I'm pretty sure that the Termies would just get out.

Or Deep Strike.

Which I dislike putting on Tactical squads from experience. So yeah.

Someone doesn't play against many Monstrous Creatures or Plague Marines then.

Pretty much. It's just a pseudo-tradition of mine to flank them with 2 of the same tanks while I drive a spear through their gut.

Again, probably different meta-games. But, putting the best thing in your army front-and-centre never ends well for me, or for my opponents.

It still seems like 1-2 turns of 12" move will be all they need to position themselves for a brutal firefight and I'm yet to see Termies lose a firefight.

Someone doesn't play against Fire Dragons.

Right, so chopping out the Land Raider. Goodbye shiny new toy #1.

Never said you had to do that. In fact, I'm kind of against getting rid of it, as now you have no long-range anti-tank firepower.

Mostly, my criticism against the Land Raider, is putting not-Assault unit inside it.

Except that this way I have flexibility between combat squadding or not combat squadding as Rhinos can do both, whereas Razorbacks are locked in.

Not necessarily. The way I do it, is to have the Razorback running around solo, blocking LoS, Tank Shocking, and generally just harassing my opponent. While my ten-man Tactical Squad sits back shooting Heavy Bolters and Plasmaguns.

Or, wait until the Tactical Squad takes four casualties (they will) and then run away!

Granted. Hammernators are go!

That's not what I said to do at all.

The only thing I can see worth changing is the Meltaguns to Plasmaguns. Because Missile Launchers can fill either role, just like my Marines are meant to do.

So...Drop the Land Raider, swap the Meltaguns...What do you have for anti-tank now?

Modelling? Yearch. Least favourite part of 40k

That's my favourite part.

Out of mechanised lists I have a slight preference for Rhinos and am yet to be impressed by Razorbacks.

A lot of people aren't impressed by Razorbacks, because their army doesn't actually need them. With your army, as it is now, it doesn't need them.

However, play against a Razorback-spam army, then come back and tell me it was crap. Double if the army was Blood Angels. I will be shocked.

Especially if there's more bloody assembly involved

It's a hobby. If it doesn't take time and effort, you're not doing it right.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You can still use regular Terminators. Just don't put them in a Land Raider. They should be on foot, making full use of their Assault Cannon and Storm Bolters, or, the better option; Deep Striking.

I never deep strike my terminators and if they're not assault termies and in a land raider crusader they just walk. They never have a problem getting into assault with something by turn 4 (and if they deep strike they can't until turn 3) and with a 30" threat range they always do something useful on turn 1. Like bust a rhino or land speeder with an assault cannon.

So? I think you'll find that WYSIWYG doesn't work 'the other way'. Nobody really minds when your model looks like it has something, but actually doesn't.

I've heard of "if its modeled you have to pay the points for it" guys, but can't remember actually meeting one.

[Cheesegear]

I've heard of "if its modeled you have to pay the points for it" guys, but can't remember actually meeting one.

I've heard of such stories too. But, even in a tournament setting, I've played models with Power Fists as 'nothing', nobody seems to mind.

However, I do know that people's heads explode if I say "The Power Fist is actually a Power Weapon." It's a slightly different sentence, but, the reactions are completely different.

[Klose_the_Sith]

You can still use regular Terminators. Just don't put them in a Land Raider. They should be on foot, making full use of their Assault Cannon and Storm Bolters, or, the better option; Deep Striking.

Right.

A Librarian with regular Terminators or Hammernators works well, as he pulls his Initiative value while the rest just sit back and do nothing with their Power Fists and Hammers.

Just seems on face value that he'd synergise better with the regular Termies, but I guess that's just me.

A Chaplain, in a group of Lightning Claws does scarily well. They're not as survivable as Hammernators, but, then again, they don't really have to be. But, you do have to make sure they run into a combat that they can actually win. Don't go throwing them at Monstrous Creatures (T6+) unless those MCs are down to one or two wounds.
Not being as dead 'ard as Hammernators, they need to pick their battles.

Which is all, however, a moot point as I have neither Chaplain nor Lightning Claws and aren't really fond of either.

So, in other words, they spend 1-2 turns doing nothing, while another 250 points moves across the board shooting one weapon per turn?

If you Deep Strike, they'll still spend at least the first turn doing nothing. But, your 250 point model (or whatever you replace it with, should you choose to) can actually do things.

One weapon can still do plenty if that one weapon is a TL Lascannon.

And 1-2 turns is really not a lot. Like, at all. It is, in the business, what we'd call negligible. Or at least it is in my experience ...

In Linemen Squads? Definitely.

Alright ...

Mostly because whatever you're using the Melta weapons on, the Power Weapon will be useless. I'm a huge fan of Power Fists, myself. I don't really believe that the Power Weapon brings that much to the table, if you've got Power Fist instead. It gives you a fighting chance against MCs, lets you Assault vehicles when your Melta weapons fail.
Sure, it goes last in combat, but, that's what the other 9 bodies are for.

Whereas a Power Sword lets me bite deeper into hordes and I can still plant krak grenades on vehicles. For 10 points cheaper.

Which is important when I'm scrounging points.

Is a Power Sword as good as a Power Fist? Hell no. Doesn't mean that they get given a place in my Tactical squid on that alone.

The one in the Terminator Box?

Converting up my Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (Scouts), I've been using Imperial Guard voxes.

Alright, I'll have to see what I can scrounge up ...

I just don't think that they work well with Rhinos. However, they are free.

They're also already painted and attached. Which gives them a fair few points over the alternatives.

So? I think you'll find that WYSIWYG doesn't work 'the other way'. Nobody really minds when your model looks like it has something, but actually doesn't.

Except that I don't like my models being inaccurate. Ever. Plus I like Siege Shields.

Not on the first turn they can't. As I've said, sometimes you may want to Deep Strike your Terminators, and, in that case, you can have your non-Rhino Squad start in the Land Raider.

Why, praytell, would I want that?

That wasn't meant in a hostile way, I'm genuinely curious.

Or Deep Strike.

Where appropriate, yes.

Someone doesn't play against many Monstrous Creatures or Plague Marines then.

By experience I actually meant against Tyranids where he was packing monstrous creatures. The only way I dealt with them did not involve close combat. At all.

Someone doesn't play against Fire Dragons.

Last time I played Eldar they were running Rangers, Dire Avengers and Horse Artillery.

Never said you had to do that. In fact, I'm kind of against getting rid of it, as now you have no long-range anti-tank firepower.

Mostly, my criticism against the Land Raider, is putting not-Assault unit inside it.

My mistake I suppose. It's this silly thing where when someone refers to a model I've taken as the worst option of a series of overrated models, I start looking at other ways I could spend the points ...

Not necessarily. The way I do it, is to have the Razorback running around solo, blocking LoS, Tank Shocking, and generally just harassing my opponent. While my ten-man Tactical Squad sits back shooting Heavy Bolters and Plasmaguns.

Or, wait until the Tactical Squad takes four casualties (they will) and then run away!

So they're foot-slogging and I gain a nuisance tank?

I'll pass.

That's not what I said to do at all.

I must have misunderstood the part where you told me that Hammernators would do better

So...Drop the Land Raider, swap the Meltaguns...What do you have for anti-tank now?

...

Damn.

A lot of people aren't impressed by Razorbacks, because their army doesn't actually need them. With your army, as it is now, it doesn't need them.

However, play against a Razorback-spam army, then come back and tell me it was crap. Double if the army was Blood Angels. I will be shocked.

Well I'll keep it in mind. I get that they'd be useful in numbers, but the effort involved in Razorback spam would probably just drive me to quit the hobby altogether.

It's a hobby. If it doesn't take time and effort, you're not doing it right.

The only good part of assembly is that it motivates me to go do homework instead, because I will do ANYTHING to avoid more time spent with various tools and glues, playing with those Emperor-forsakenly fiddly plastic kits.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Whereas a Power Sword lets me bite deeper into hordes and I can still plant krak grenades on vehicles. For 10 points cheaper.

Power swords have a minor advantage against hordes, unless your enemy is somehow hording units with better than 5+ saves. They're more useful against hordes than a power fist is (unless you're fighting an I4 horde), but far from 15 points better than a chainsword.

Is a Power Sword as good as a Power Fist? Hell no. Doesn't mean that they get given a place in my Tactical squid on that alone.

Power swords are best when your fighting enemies with a 4+ or better save and you have higher initiative. Otherwise they're worse than power fists or unnecessary. Furious charge makes power weapons amazing.