Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Cheesegear]

Anyways, the best advice I can give is to stock up on Superheavies. Titans, those crazy IG tanks, etc. . . those can kill hundreds of points of stuff in one turn of shooting.

Not quite sure that that's helpful for a Tau player.

[Gruffard]

I personally don't own any super heavies, but I do know there will be a baneblade and two of the "smaller" titans, one chaos one imperial. Plus the big Appoclypse Ork smashie thing.

So there should be a decent amount of smashie smash big things.

Right now its more of no one has done a really stupid big game, so lets try it. Depending on how it goes we might or might not do it again, I am up for trying.

[Lostintransit]

I feel I should point out that big 40k apocalypse games usually take a day to play, so prepare yourself in advance! Organisation is key!

But it is good fun!

Regards

[Tren]

Also, be prepared for the reality that you will lose tons of models, and it's always a possibility that you can be tabled in a turn or two. People tend to get really worked up over Apocalypse because they're excited about fielding these super armies and cool formations. Unfortunately everyone else is fielding super armies with cool formations, and with Destroyer weapons on the board too, things tend to die really quickly.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but be prepared! Just as you may kick lots of ass in an Apocalypse game, it's very easy to get ass-kicked in return.

[Lostintransit]

Yeah, I agree with that. When I was organising the battle of the beacon game, everyone was excited over the awsomeness of their stuff, with bio titans and huge mobs and super tactics, but when the imperials pulled out vortex grenade using assassians and missiles people where WTF???

[Gruffard]

Oh I just want to see that many minis at one place. It be fun.

I wish I had access to the Apoclypse book, but I do not own one, and until I swing by the store this weekend I can't look up or prepare a list (cause If I can can I want to take advantage of a formation special rules, etc.

[Lycan 01]

Since when AoBR has any Termie Captains?

Either you meant Sergeant here, or...

Er, oops. I meant to say Termie Sarge.


No advice or opinions? Thanks guys.





As for the Apocalyse game, I don't really know what to tell you. Tanks tank tanks, and more than a few Troops choices since they'll basically be evaporating en masse.

Also, keep your distance from Titans and superheavies. I hear they go nuclear when they're finally taken down, and it can wipe out whole squads if they're within X inches of the blast.

[lord_khaine]

So, did i not bring enough dakka in my previous listed army, or did my dice just hate me?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

So, did i not bring enough dakka in my previous listed army, or did my dice just hate me?

Why do you bother asking? DERE CAN NEVA BE ENUFF DAKKA!
<-- see, green is best!

[Cheesegear]

So, did i not bring enough dakka in my previous listed army, or did my dice just hate me?

Let's review.

Spoiler

Show

Maugan Ra - 195 Points

Maugan Ra is a joke.
S6, AP5, Assault 4(5), Pinning, Rending.

Cool. I guess. And, as we know, high strength is useless if your opponent still gets a save. He can deny cover though, which is good though.

Dark Reaper Exarch with Fast Shot and Crack Shot - 77 Points.
Tempest Launcher (+20): S4, AP3, Heavy 2(3), Barrage.

Let's review; Barrage weapons cause Pinning. Check. Heavy 2/3 makes it Multiple Barrage. That will get way more hits than Assault 4/5. At AP3 and ignoring cover, it may as well be Rending to all but Terminators and Meganobz, and will guarantee that your opponent takes Pinning checks instead of needing to roll sixes for Rending.

Last, Barrage weapons don't need line of sight.

The only downside for this, compared to the Maugetar, is S4. Who cares? AP3. If you want to pop vehicles, you should be using something else. But the Maugetar is an Assault weap...*slap* Why are you Assaulting with a Ranged Hero?

Due to the Tempest Launcher being a Barrage weapon, you don't need LoS, and don't have to move, ever. Being a Heavy weapon shouldn't be an issue.

10 Wraithguard + Seer

In this list? Pretty much useless. Points would be better spent on D-Cannons, Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers. Since we're replacing Maugan Ra, for an Exarch half his points cost, lets go with Dark Reapers. The points left can be spent on more Guardians, Dire Avengers or Fire Dragons.

Farseer

2 HQs is a bad idea in 5th Ed. for most armies. Doubly so for this list because Maugan Ra kind of sucks.

Banshees in Wave Serpent

Sure, why not. I prefer Scorpions because they're useful against a wider variety of units, and, due to not needing a Wave Serpent, cost less. This list is also missing Fire Dragons.

Dire Avengers and Guardians

The more competitive lists use Dire Avengers or Guardians. Not both. And they normally don't block their Guardians in units of 20 without a Warlock. Due to giant squads of Guardians, the Dire Avengers' Bladestorm is kind of made redundant. And large blocks of Guardians (with Warlock) are just as good at holding objectives as Wraithguard.

2 Wraithlords

Yep.

First, you never said how many points you were playing, and you don't really say - specifically - what your opponent had. So I have no idea if you had enough firepower.

Individually, all the units are fine. However, the game doesn't work that way. It's not that you didn't have enough firepower. You just didn't have the right kind of firepower.

[lord_khaine]

ahh sorry, it was 1750 points.

I bought Maugan Ra to test if his rending weapon would be usefull in stopping rhinoes, and to see if he could save my wraithguards from getting their butt kicked in melee combat.

Anyway, thanks, ill think a bit about what to do next, with the models i have.

[Arcanoi]

ahh sorry, it was 1750 points.

I bought Maugan Ra to test if his rending weapon would be usefull in stopping rhinoes, and to see if he could save my wraithguards from getting their butt kicked in melee combat.

Anyway, thanks, ill think a bit about what to do next, with the models i have.

You brought the 200pt model to see if he could stop the 35pt Transports and make sure the S5 T6 Sv3+ models don't lose their close combats too badly. Wraithguards are in danger of getting tarpitted by things with decent saves, rendering them incapable of using their guns, but actually losing a combat is something they struggle mightily to do. For the same amount of points, or nearly so, as Maugan Ra, you can pick up an entire squad of Dark Reapers. Maugan Ra, like most of the Phoenix Lords, I'm beginning to suspect, is one of the things that looks good on paper, but just isn't that good in practice.

[lord_khaine]

You brought the 200pt model to see if he could stop the 35pt Transports and make sure the S5 T6 Sv3+ models don't lose their close combats too badly. Wraithguards are in danger of getting tarpitted by things with decent saves, rendering them incapable of using their guns, but actually losing a combat is something they struggle mightily to do. For the same amount of points, or nearly so, as Maugan Ra, you can pick up an entire squad of Dark Reapers. Maugan Ra, like most of the Phoenix Lords, I'm beginning to suspect, is one of the things that looks good on paper, but just isn't that good in practice.

The problem is the wraithguard did not get tarpitted, they got torn apart in a singel round of melee combat by 5 terminators and a chaplain.

The same unit was then killed itself in a singel round by my Banshee's and the Farseer.

Think it would be worth it to bring the Avatar instead?

[Arcanoi]

The problem is the wraithguard did not get tarpitted, they got torn apart in a singel round of melee combat by 5 terminators and a chaplain.

When a Land Raider cruises up 18" from your Wraithguard, you take the move and then Wraithcannon the crap out of it. Wraithcannons were designed to beat the crap out of Land Raiders and Monoliths.

[crazedloon]

I would say try the avatar, but if you do you may wish to try larger blocks of guardians since they benefit tremendously from being fearless (not that avengers do not there is just less of them to take advantage of fearless so are worse tarpits and worse cover saves)

[lord_khaine]

When a Land Raider cruises up 18" from your Wraithguard, you take the move and then Wraithcannon the crap out of it. Wraithcannons were designed to beat the crap out of Land Raiders and Monoliths.

The problem was that the land raider were as far as i could see 19-20" away from me, and if he drives 18" forward, place his men 2" away from the raider, then the large base of the terminators give them an effective charge range above 18".

[Lycan 01]

Would people be irked if I counted a handfull of Catachan jungle fighters as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers? I mean, they are pretty hardcore. I modelled three of them last night for various units, including one carrying a Sentinel's autocannon to represent a Heavy Weapon Autocannon Team, and they came out fairly awesome. I'll post pics in the 40K Modelling thread once I get more of them done later.


I also downloaded the Witch Hunters Codex, and I didn't see anything in there about taking or being allies. I thought ya'll said they included the rules for allies in the WH online codex... Hm. So could I not take a Witch Hunter Inquisitor as an Elite unit choice for my Daemonhunters without a physical copy of the WH Codex?

Just out of curiousity, of course. I haven't really looked through the WH gear and stuff, since I'm not sure if I can even use them. If it is possible to use them, would that be worth looking in to, or would ya'll suggest against it?

[Keris]

I also downloaded the Witch Hunters Codex, and I didn't see anything in there about taking or being allies. I thought ya'll said they included the rules for allies in the WH online codex... Hm.

Neither online codex included the Allies rules. When they put the codexes up the WH codex included the rules for Inducted IG and Allied SM, which DH lacked, but they've since removed that section from the WH book as well.

So could I not take a Witch Hunter Inquisitor as an Elite unit choice for my Daemonhunters without a physical copy of the WH Codex?

I would be careful about doing so, as without a copy of the rule to lean on, an opponent may not accept you doing so. I'd let you do so, since I have my own copy of the WH 'dex and am familiar with that rule, but if I wasn't familiar with it I'd be rather sceptical about someone using a rule he couldn't point to in his codex.

[Cheesegear]

I would say try the avatar, but if you do you may wish to try larger blocks of guardians since they benefit tremendously from being fearless (not that avengers do not there is just less of them to take advantage of fearless so are worse tarpits and worse cover saves)

Avengers are not tarpits?
Defend. Shimmershield. And Avengers can actually hold their own in combat for a while. Since they can actually deal damage back.

Would people be irked if I counted a handfull of Catachan jungle fighters as Inquisitorial Stormtroopers?

Maybe. ISTs have a 4+ save and carry Hellguns. Catachans they ain't. Considering that official Storm Trooper models already exist and they look nothing like Catachans...

Your other option (if you're me), is to heavily convert Space Marine Scouts, who also have a 4+ save.

I'd probably say no. Catachans do not reflect ISTs. Some people are a lot more lenient than me.

I also downloaded the Witch Hunters Codex, and I didn't see anything in there about taking or being allies. I thought ya'll said they included the rules for allies in the WH online codex...

We said that they didn't. And that's why it sucked. And remember that whole conversation about if you wanted Allies you'd have to have a physical copy of the book?

So could I not take a Witch Hunter Inquisitor as an Elite unit choice for my Daemonhunters without a physical copy of the WH Codex?

No, you couldn't. Your opponent will say "Show me where you can have allies..." and you wont be able to show him. And your army will be illegal. Some people might allow it.

If it is possible to use them, would that be worth looking in to, or would ya'll suggest against it?

Witch Hunters are better Assault Inquisitors. If that's what you need in your army, go for it. But, Daemonhunters already have Grey Knights.

[Lycan 01]

Alrighty. Yes, I remember the whole thing about needing the Codexes, but I remembered ya'll saying that the Witch Hunters Codex had something in it that the DH Codex did not. Guess my mind was playing tricks on me.


Oh well. It was really just curiousity. I was probably going to make a Witch Hunter model with a cool hat and whatnot, and use him as a spare model/Dark Heresy piece or something. I was just trying to see what sort of other uses I could get out of him...


Hm. Pity 'bout the Catechans. I could still do the Tau Firewarrior conversion thing, but while an awesome idea, I can see that going over worse than Catachans with most people.

[Cheesegear]

Hm. Pity 'bout the Catechans. I could still do the Tau Firewarrior conversion thing, but while an awesome idea, I can see that going over worse than Catachans with most people.

I can't. Do they have 4+ Armour? Do they have awesome guns? If the answer is 'yes' to both questions, then they're ISTs. Catachans answer 'no' to both questions, and that's why I wouldn't allow them as ISTs.

[Lycan 01]

Yes, but they also have the funky feet and hands. Granted, it could be assumed the armor has been tweaked for the Stormies' feet and hands to fit in and use the armor... But some people still might raise a hissy fit over it.



Oh! On the plus side, I successfully made a plasma gun by combining a plasma pistol and las gun earlier. A little bit of knife work, and it came out looking awesome! I've got two more plasma pistols to work with, so that gives me 3 spare plasma guns to play with total. Should come in handy...

[Cheesegear]

Yes, but they also have the funky feet and hands. Granted, it could be assumed the armor has been tweaked for the Stormies' feet and hands to fit in and use the armor... But some people still might raise a hissy fit over it.

Oh. That's not how you 'do it'. I thought you were cannibalizing the box. I've pretty much stolen this guy's idea for Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, except I'm using Space Marine Scouts as the base, and using them as Marine Scouts, so I can give them Shotguns and Bolters and the like.

I'll probably all give them Telion-Style Bolters, nobody should have a problem with them being pretty much whatever-I've-paid-points for. Except for Combat Blades. Which I'm not really a fan of on Scouts.


Anyway, everyone, I'm still writing Game 3. It's the most exciting because I've changed the list after two games now that I know what works (lots of Knights) and what doesn't (Dreadnoughts). Because that's what you do when you're play-testing.

Then, there's a bonus Game 4. Which was actually the shortest of the night. And I can write in a few sentences.

[Lycan 01]

Well, I'm not just making Fire Warriors and saying "They're Stormies!" I would give 'em human heads, switch some of their pulse rifles for (modified) lasguns, decorate them in purity seals, and otherwise try to at least show they're humans using Tau technology. But, fluff wise, most people would call shenannigans and whatnot, so its probably a waste of time and models in the long run.

Hm. Maybe I can plasticard/greenstuff some carapace armor onto a few Catachans. I only really need 8 stormtroopers - I was going to give the sarges power armor, and just use a pair of spare Space Marines I have. It would probably look better than the Tau conversion. But, it still may not be good enough...


I might as well just shelf my Daemonhunter army for the time being. Unless I can get a job when I get back to college, there's no way I'll make any progress with it for awhile...

[Cheesegear]

I would give 'em human heads, switch some of their pulse rifles for (modified) lasguns, decorate them in purity seals, and otherwise try to at least show they're humans using Tau technology. But, fluff wise, most people would call shenannigans and whatnot, so its probably a waste of time and models in the long run.

You did say something about the hands and feet being 'off'. If you use Cadian legs and arms then there's no problem. Nobody should call shenanigans on the fluff. There are Human Tau Auxiliaries, so, we know that Humans can learn use Tau tech if given the chance. And, second, they're the Inquisition. You can give them anything they want.

Under the Imperial Guard Codex, a 'Hellgun' is a really, really funky laser. Model whatever you want that isn't a lasgun. Or modify/knife-attack a lasgun and make it cool if you want to be true-to-source.

Under Daemonhunters, there isn't much functionally different between a Hellgun and a Boltgun. Model your models with Boltguns. If anybody complains, punch them in the head.

[Lycan 01]

Well, I don't really have any spare legs to use. Though I could probably greenstuff some boots, if I can find the patience. (That stuff is the devil...) I have enough spare arms though, I think.

The Hellgun should be easy enough to model. Put some spare bits on it, maybe hook a power line up to a backpack...

Hm. I have a few spare bolters. I could probably use those for some variety in the models, and count them as Hellguns. It'd save a butt-ton of time, that's for sure.

[Klose_the_Sith]

No it doesn't. It makes an acceptable Power Maul.

"The Crozius Arcanum itself is a staff of medium length, topped with either an Imperial eagle or a winged skull."

A bit of conversion work is what it takes to make it into a Crozius. Either one of billion Dark Angel symbols you get from the box (like Asmodai, above) or use the skull-and-wings from the Command Squad box, or find a double-eagle icon. I think one exists like the other Crozii...Somewhere. Probably, again, in the Command Squad box.

A 'Power Maul' is not a 'Sacred Staff of Office' that symbolizes the Imperium, or the Chapter (such as a Salamanders' Hammer, Asmodai's Angel, etc).

What about a staff topped with the winged gem thing from the Assault Terminator box? It's still got wings and fits with my skull-less chaplain approach, so it's even sticking with a theme I suppose?

Although tbh I don't see why you couldn't just make a Chaplain be a Marine Commander with a power sword, iron halo, jump pack and bolt pistol. It's not like there'd be any difference in the end ...

[Siosilvar]

Not to interrupt your conversation, but... thoughts on playing 40k over play-by-post? I have access to a friend's rulebook and Tau Codex (judging from my research, looks like my favorite army), but have no disposable income (at least not until next summer) but still want to play. Some of those models are ex-pens-ive.

Also, my FLGS isn't very friendly... last I checked, one of my other friends was forced to write his name on a wall (or was it a bone? maybe it was both) for losing a Magic tournament there.

EDIT: Yes, I think it is a 5e rulebook.

[Incomp]

I...wouldn't recommend that idea, without some out-of-site help. Uhm. In my army (Daemons), and in most others, people will regularly be rolling 20+ dice at once. All I can say is I DO NOT want to use the dice roller on GitP for that. If you have a dice roller which is better for the situation, it might be worth a try.

But the real killer is measurement. Are you going to draw a map, then upload it? Scale becomes an issue. As do blast weapons, etc.

Agreed that the models are truly expensive. If you really do want to play, and you don't feel aesthetics are an issue, you may want to try playing with armies of proxies. Yes, it's dumb to field a squad of bottlecaps, and it raises it's own set of problems, (LOS mainly) but it's better than not playing.

If that doesn't appeal, you'll probably have to wait until the summer, or until you can scrounge up a nice deal. Friends who are sick of playing the game are a good source of cheap armies. Though beware of bad paint jobs, among other things.

[Siosilvar]

I...wouldn't recommend that idea, without some out-of-site help. Uhm. In my army (Daemons), and in most others, people will regularly be rolling 20+ dice at once. All I can say is I DO NOT want to use the dice roller on GitP for that. If you have a dice roller which is better for the situation, it might be worth a try.

But the real killer is measurement. Are you going to draw a map, then upload it? Scale becomes an issue. As do blast weapons, etc.

[rollv] works well enough. If not... Invisible Castle saves dice by the "character", type in "Sio's Tau Army [40k]" or something like that and keep it consistent to prevent cheating.

Measurement? 10 pixels per inch. 25mm bases are 10 pixels wide, 40mm bases are 16 pixels... A Rhino is 46 by 30 pixels (roughly). Tabletop is 480 by 600 pixels.
Blasts are 3" and 5" diameter.

Main problem I can see is working out line of sight, which is done easily enough if you assign each piece of terrain a height or just "this blocks view of everything behind it".



EDIT: And if anybody's willing to take me up on the PbP40k offer, I built my first two army lists today. 750 and 1000, probably post them tomorrow for critique.