GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Welcome to the Giant in the Playground Monster Competition chat thread where you can ask questions, comment, or just in general discuss about the submissions to our monthly monster mash.

This month's contest is...

Achilles Heel



GITP Monster Competition Chat II
GITP Monster Competition Chat: The Original

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Past Competitions

The Hunt
Nightmare Before Christmas
Considered To Be Unnatural II
It's The Great Pumpkin, Playground
Underfoot
Through the Looking Glass
Beings of Legend IV
ACHOO!
Plop Plop Fizz Fizz
Gits and Shiggles
Mr. Roboto
One Flesh
My Immortal
Angels Among Us
Grateful Dead
Fear Itself
Way of the Wyrm
A Thing of Beauty
Beings of Legend III
On the Road Again
Faerie Tales
Game Masters
Mayonnaise Mayhem
Animal Kingdom
Paragons of Passion
Tick... Tock...
Banquet of Beasts
Out of This World
Spooks and Spirits
Urban Legends
♫ Sing Along ♫
We The People
Beings of Legend II
Now You See Me...
Gone Mental
Creepy Crawlies
Of the Rising Sun
Flights of Fancy
Built of Faith
Home and Hearth
Gratuitous Gore
Dream A Little Dream
Tiny But Tough!
Beings of Legend
Burn, Baby, BURN!
Birds and the Bees
April Fools
A Wizard Did It
Champions of Good
Fimbulwinter
Holly Jolly
Harvest Moon
Fell Beasts
Considered To Be Unnatural

-=-=-=-=-

Monster Index
(Updated as of 'Plop Plop Fizz Fizz')

Spoiler

Show

* Contest Winners

A Shadow of Spiders by Yahzi
* Aadar Llwach by Stycotl
Ajatarra by strawberryman
Anamnesis by Closet_Skeleton
Angel, Caries by Bisected8
* Angel, Dairymaid by Debihuman
Angel of Sustenance by rtg0922
Angelic Preener by Admiral Squish
Anima Aderendo by NemoUtopia
Ankou by Mulletmanalive
Arcadian Beetle by Belboz
Asherah, Spirit of the Shores by Sir Shadow
Ashling by Mr.Bookworm
Aspect of Leviathan by Schylerwalker
Assimilator Flies by DarkShard
Astarus by Bakkan
Astral Pack-Beast by DracoDei
Astral Shard by vegetalss4
Autumnal Avenger by waterpenguin43
Autumnal Seer by The Demented One
Bad Harvest by Reltzik
Barbed Fleshworm by Reltzik
Bardfly by Cespenar
Bee-Holder by Bhu
Behemoth, Demon Prince of Gluttony by Iamyourking
Belly Serpent by Joxer t' Mighty
Bitterbug by Bisected8
Blight Cow by LordOfNarf
Bloodscarab by Abjurer
* Bloody Handed Jack by Bhu
Blood Ooze by Vaynor
Bone Conductor by adanedhel9
Bornura by Lappy9000
* Bubba the Headless Chicken by Bhu
Burning Bush by OOTS_Rules.
Busker by Vaynor
Butchery Golem by The_Glyphstone
Cab't by NemoUtopia
Cake Golem by Fangthane
Carnivorous Thyme by Bisected8
Caterwaul by Debihuman
Charspawn by Closet_Skeleton
* Chef's Mage™ Brand Fully Automatic Kitchen by Adanedhel9
Chelissadhu by Stormthorn
Child of Flame by Macrovore
Chocolate Truffle by Afroakuma
Christmas Goodies Golem by Purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
Chroneruts by Kellus
Clockwork Weaver by Sir Shadow
Cloud of Strife by Excellence
Coal Elf by Belboz
Coronal Elemental by Icewalker
Corrupted Offshoot of Yggdrasil by Random_person
* Crow Mistress by Sir Shadow
Cruor Skeleton by Bisected8
Cyrocerebellus by Khantalas
* Dadafly by The Demented One
Daemon, Malzalalim by Amiel
Dancing Golem by Bisected8
Dark Seed by Belboz
* Dattar by Poppatomus
Deadly Gaze by Bisected8
* Death by Lyinginbedmon
Deathspore Mushroom by ShneekeyTheLost
Delphine by waterpenguin43
Deus Die by Qube
Devouring Domicile by Kyace
Diatock by Lappy9000
Digit Swarm by rtg0922
Dirgesinger by XenoGeno
* Discernable Anatomy Golem by ArmorArmadillo
Disco Dragon by DracoDei
Dismal Haze by Stormthorn
Disruptor by Lord Tataraus
Divine Brigadier
Divine Spark of Inspiration by Fax_Celestis
Domestic Brownie by Littlechicory
Doomborn Warrior by Carrion_Humanoid
Dopplepunkt by Bisected8
Dracolocust Swarm by Bisected8
Dragon Victim bySlaadLord
Dread Colossus by Holocron Coder
Dringwr by Bisected8
Drome by NakedCelt
Drummer Ghoul by The Demented One
* Dust Bunny by Fax_Celestis
Edible Golem by Bhu
Eggnog Elemental by DragonTounge
Emberwilde by The Demented One
E.M.I.T by Bisected8
Empress of Rot by Jaerc
Ender by Schylerwalker
Eqach Wuilees by Grey Knight
Ergotine by Belboz
Essence of Fire by Kel
Ethercat by Adanedhel9
Existential Terror by Ghill
Exploding Chicken by Bitzeralisis
* Facsimilix by Maerok
Falling Foam by Shuryougospel
* False God by Bhu
Farceur by PhantomBread
Favored of the Traveler God by DracoDei
Fear Archon by Flarp
* Fergaast by Palcosmo
Fimbulwight by Purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
Finger of Loki by Beldak
Fish In A Barrel by Cog
Flamefly by Onasuma
Flamehaunt Wraith by Athenodorus
Flent by Kuja.girl
Flesh Beast by Beldak
Flying Spaghetti Monster by NakedCelt
Forsaken Blade by Vaynor
Fractal Bear by DracoDei
Free Spirit by DracoDei
Fungal Banshee by Penguinizer
Furnace Shadow by Bisected8
Futureling by Glooble Glistencrist
Fyumyad by Sir Shadow
Galuverant by MechaKingGhidra
* Gamer by sidhe3141
Gastrus by Belboz
Geliefd by Knight9910
Ghostfolk by Silence
Giant Bacillus by Belboz
Gingerbread Giant by RS14
Glass Golem by Duchess_of_Elysian
Glass Spider by Blue_C.
Gluttonous Plague by Khantalas
Golden Flame of Pelor by Glooble Glistencrist
Gorin No Oni by Caracol
Gorshk by Nelphine
Gothad by Sir Shadow
Graveforged by Hyrael
Gray Master by Vrel
Grey Goo by Belboz
Grey Reaper by Schylerwalker
*Gridoll by Guyr Adamantine
Gumwad by Enlong
Guoreeat by Unosarta
Gut Snake by DracoDei
Haint o’ the Crossroads by rtg0922
* Harvester by Deca
Haurla by dentrag2
* Headhunter by Kellus
Headless Dragon by Bisected8
Hearth Protector by Lord Tataraus
Hearthworm by FirebirdFlying
Heliotoad by Lord Tataraus
Helon of the Heaven's Lore by Anonymouswizard
Herald of Winter by MandibleBones
Hidden Flame by hylian chozo
* Hjordis by Bisected8
Hollow Vicegerent by Jaerc
Hordeling by Cespenar
Icicle Beast by Glooble Glistencrist
Idle Chill by TheLogman
Ilthslamael by Closet_Skeleton
Immortal Frawg by Bhu
In-F-able Horror by Zom B
Inaran Fae by RandomFellow
Invisible Giant by Vaynor
Issun-bōshi by Paragon Badger
Jack-o'-Ripper by Jergmo
Janus Golem by Debihuman
Jump-At-A-Body by Joxer t' Mighty
Karnak the Everfrozen by gorknmork
Kawaii Ooze by Goober4473
Ketrakion by NakedCelt
* Khrysalathi's Memorandum by Joxer t' Mighty
Kindling by Mattarias
* Kiseichuu Yuurei by Bhu
Kittenbush by Shuryougospel
Knight Divine by Peregrine
Lap Dog by Blue_C.
Legendary Crocodile by Bhu
Limb Louse by Bisected8
Living Bard Song by Daedu
Llorrick by Lord Iames Osari
Lord of Rest by DracoDei
Loutae by Nhoj
*Lowfolk by AKA_Bait
Luugu by NakedCelt
Lure Eel by Icewalker
Lusca by strawberryman
Magic Eater Termites by Caracol
Magypsy by waterpenguin43
Maiden of Plumes by SlaadLord
Malicious Slander by Bisected8
ManBearPig by Maerok
Mandrake Oak by The Gilded Duke
Man o’War by Belboz
Marauder of the Flesh by Maerok
Mawstinger by Bisected8
Megadentis by Mulletmanalive
Melodic Dragon by Arkanis
Mepholk by DracoDei
Mherephess by TheEscapist
Mindmite by Fax_Celestis
* Minimus Drone by The Demented One
Mist Maiden by NakedCelt
Monstrous Cicada by Paragon Badger
Monstrous Silk Worm by rtg0922
Mortal Devil by Bisected8
Mother of Shadow by Fangthane
Mourning Dove by Thistle
Mousefolk by Belboz
MS-OBv9 by waterpenguin43
* Muliwai by Fax_Celestis
Mynithar Beetle by MattKatt
Nephilim by The Gilded Duke
Nephtyan Rivermaid by waterpenguin43
Nigh by Krimm_Blackleaf
Nightleech by Closet_Skeleton
* Nimbus Golem by Poppatomus
Noble Fir by LordOfNarf
Nobody's Problem by TheLogman
Nog Fairy by Thomar_of_Uointer
Nudibrancha by Levi
Occult Cúcharraige by strawberryman
Oculans by Magnor Criol
* Old Man of the Field by Bearofbadnews
* Oneiroi by AKA_Bait
Oran-Spawn by The Demented One
* Oreichalkos Dragon by Stycotl
Panic Shade by Crafty Cultist
Patchcorners by Bisected8
Peanut Reaper by Lappy9000
Pembunuh by Bhu
Penumbral Stalker by The_Glyphstone
Perfected One by Random_person
Phaighthmeam by NakedCelt
Phobus Beast by SlaadLord
Pituku by flyingpoo22
Poisonskin Crusher by Leicontis
Porcelain Doll by Sir Shadow
* Precious Little Thing by strawberryman
Preymaker by Icewalker
Pure Thought by Bisected8
Pyrotechnic Golem by Simius
Pyroworm by Bisected8
* Qliphoth by The Demented One
Quencher by Hyrael
Quiet by Hairb
Quintessence Dragon by NakedCelt
Quintessence Golem by rtg0922
Raenia by Phoenix Talion
Raisuden by Bisected8
Raver Swarm by Stormthorn
Raw Sinusoid by RS14
Raze, the Soul of the Sun by Proven_Paradox
* Reality Shifter by Vaynor
Reanimator by Zom B
Relentless Cuckolder by EndlessEnnui
Repenter of Heironeos by Onasuma
Retrospect by Stycotl
Reveler by Admiral Squish
Rider's Angel by Arioch
Rift Demon by Corncracker
Roach by Billwill91
Roc Golem by Bisected8
Rook, The Greymount Fortress by Admiral Squish
Rthuote by SmileyX
Sabretooth by NakedCelt
Sacrificial by Cespenar
Sandalphon, the Hand of God by Iamyourking
Sandblighter by Sir Conkey
Sapphiren by Elrond
Savior of the Forest by Corncracker
* Scaramouche by The Demented One
Scorpell by Ajkkjjk52
Sebal, Power Unbound by SilveryCord
Sentient Tumour by AtomicKitKat
Seraph of the Heavenly Host by Schylerwalker
Serviceforged by Finerty
* She Who Walks Beneath the Ice by Bearofbadnews
Shimmering Ooze by RS14
Sialla Danda by Afroakuma
Silly Frocker by Bisected8
Silver Lionling by rtg0922
* Skratta-sker by Stycotl
Shiny by Owrtho
Shrieking Slicer by McDeath
Singers From Outside by Bhu
Singing Stone by KingGolem
*Singing Tree by Sir Shadow
Skin Spiders by Dove
Sleeper In the Deep by Alveanerle
Slumber Cat by Thistle
Smokey Floater by DracoDei
Snap Dragon by Sir Shadow
Snowball Warrior by The Demented One
Snowy Archon by The_Cowinator
Soil Keeper by The Demented One
Soluminaire Ooze by ShneekeyTheLost
Somesclaustrum (Whining Head) by Bisected8
Somniletum by FlyingWhale
Sonorous Mouther by rtg0922
Sons/Daughters of Silence by Lord_Gareth
Soot Brownie by Thistle
Soul Hound by RandomFellow
Sower of Seasons by adanedhel9
Spartoi by Joxer t' Mighty
Spideer by Fax_Celestis
Spirit Gate by Owrtho
Spirit of Dullness by Bisected8
Spirit of the North Wind by Duke of URL
Spirit of the Woods by Vaynor
Split Second by Titanium Dragon
Spook by RS14
Spriggan by NakedCelt
Starperson by belboz
Star Spore Seedling by Glimworm
Stoic, Shield of Shields by Proven_Paradox
* Storm Serpent by RS14
Stormhaunt by The_Snark
Strangefolk by Fangthane
Sun Devil by Stolenchariot
Sun Sprite by ZeroNumerous
Sun Thief by Haruspex
Sycophantic Specter by Kyace
Taco Fairy by Lappy9000
Talmascalion by Foeofthelance
* Temporal Echo by TheLogman
Thane of the Anvil by Haruspex
The Angel of Death by Bhu
The Benefactors by Schylerwalker
The Black Mask by Bhu
The Colors Purple by The Gilded Duke
* The Eight Brothers by TheEscapist
The Final/First Word by DracoDei
The Grandfather Djinn_In_Tonic
The Gray Man by Jergmo
The Harvest King by Admiral Squish
The Hawk by Headwarpage
The Jester by The Dark Fiddler
The Known World by The Gilded Duke
The Kulreich von Lemminstantrophonees Legacy by CabbageTheif
The Morrígna by Stycotl
The Name and the Soul by Khantalas
The Resurrection Women by Bhu
* The Slender Man by Hyooz
The Terror by Gorgondantess
The Weeping Children by Jkoshe
These Boots by The Gilded Duke
Thoughtleech by Dennetik
Tome of the Worlds by Vaynor
Torell the Nightheart by Kel
Tosurak by Maerok
Träumen by Calver
Tuatha de Danaan by sidhe3141
Turtlehawk by Krimm_Blackleaf
Unbound Elemental Spirit by Bisected8
Unspoken Chorus by Djinn_In_Tonic
Urban Oasis by rtg0922
Vascula by Kai-Palin
* Vastor by NakedCelt
Vazjura by Lord Iames Osari
Veiled Deer by Malachite
Vertigo Swarm by Ertier
Vetala by Lord Tataraus
Vilapi by Hyrael
Violence by Runeir
Voice of Divinity by Blue_C.
Voracious Lemming by Bhu
* Votive Guardian by Thistle
* Wanderwish by SlaadLord
Watchdog by Debihuman
*Watcher by Paragon Badger
Weirded Way by Adanedhel9
Whimsycap Toadstool by Djinn_In_Tonic
Whisperlings by Daverick
Windsider by Thomar_of_Uointer
Wing Dragon by DracoDei
Wingbane Glider by Cespenar
* Winterchilde by Bearofbadnews
Witch-Begotten Stalker by Closet_Skeleton
Wonup by Bisected8
Woodsman by The Gilded Duke
Woror by Kyace
Woruldoomwere by Bisected8
Wrath by Krimm_Blackleaf
Wupperhin by The Great Skenardo
Xintri by Sir Shadow
Yersinia by Lucid_Archon
Yule Pig by Total_Viking_Power
Zodiacal Hydra by Calver
Zuni Warrior Fetish Doll Debihuman

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Ok, old thread is dead, and the third has risen. Though I started July's competition early, June's contest still needs votes!

Click here to vote in ACHOO!

[DracoDei]

Hmmm... you probably foreshadowed this in Chat-Thred version II, but this comes as quite a surprise for me...
Will have to think of what to do with it... almost certainly DO want to do something with it, if only because both components of the theme (template, and Epic) have a certain appeal to me.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Hmmm... you probably foreshadowed this in Chat-Thred version II, but this comes as quite a surprise for me...

Template contest or that it's epic-levels?

[BisectedBrioche]

That time of year already, is it?

Oh well, I've been wanting an excuse to create some sort of insanely complex template (one which has a great deal of different outcomes based on the base creature, instead of simply adding a few abilities and subtypes).

[DracoDei]

Template contest or that it's epic-levels?

For me the surprise was both that you finally decided to go ahead and do a Template contest (we knew you were going to do one one of these days, but it didn't seem like it was likely to be soon), and that you decided on Epic for the theme of the first such outing.


P.S. I am FINALLY remembering to mention that the example creature block in the NORMAL contests has completely the wrong formatting to be Quoting friendly for newbies.

P.P.S. I assume that multiple input creatures (such as occurs with the Tauric template) are acceptable? Also, that randomly makes me ponder the idea of a dual OUTPUT creature...

[Mulletmanalive]

Well, that sucks. A chance to writesome nifty text in a different prose for and have it compared to the work of others and the theme is thatthe requirement is epic levels...

Ah well, maybe next time.

Edit: Is it possible to enter only half of the competition? More precisely, could I enter a creature/template of too low power and have it invalidated from voting and still have the connected legend considered for that part?

It's either that or i'll just have to make an "elder evil" template, leaving the actual creature still, strictly, a threat for non-epic levels...

[Debihuman]

M-Man, there's nothing that says you can't enter and then be disqualified, but I don't think that's what you really wanted to hear.

Epic Templates are hard. I have an idea for one but I'm not sure I'm going to have the time to write it out.

Debby

[Mulletmanalive]

Not quite what i was asking really. I hated epic play on both occasions i forayed into it so i have no experience with it. I guess i coul just make a +1 or +0 CR template for epic creatures only and just focus on the writing

Edit: ignore me, i can still [i dunno if this was the intention but i'm all about the maleable spirit] fill this without issue by simple dint of the 20HD+ option. I can still keep my numbers managable! Wee!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

For me the surprise was both that you finally decided to go ahead and do a Template contest (we knew you were going to do one one of these days, but it didn't seem like it was likely to be soon), and that you decided on Epic for the theme of the first such outing.

Do epic this time every year

P.S. I am FINALLY remembering to mention that the example creature block in the NORMAL contests has completely the wrong formatting to be Quoting friendly for newbies.

In what way?

P.P.S. I assume that multiple input creatures (such as occurs with the Tauric template) are acceptable? Also, that randomly makes me ponder the idea of a dual OUTPUT creature...

Sure. It's not the sample creatures we're voting on but the template. The Epic can be about the template or the sample creature, either way.

Re: GITP Monster Competition Chat Thread III
Well, that sucks. A chance to writesome nifty text in a different prose for and have it compared to the work of others and the theme is that the requirement is epic levels...

Ah well, maybe next time.

Edit: Is it possible to enter only half of the competition? More precisely, could I enter a creature/template of too low power and have it invalidated from voting and still have the connected legend considered for that part?

Sorry, all or nuthin'.

Epic Templates are hard. I have an idea for one but I'm not sure I'm going to have the time to write it out.

Aww, that's why I gave y'all a full month this time.

Not quite what i was asking really. I hated epic play on both occasions i forayed into it so i have no experience with it. I guess i coul just make a +1 or +0 CR template for epic creatures only and just focus on the writing

Well, I've never really played an epic campaign (that lasted more than a week anyways) but just make it worthy of a CR over 20 and you'll be fine.

[MythMage]

Not quite what i was asking really. I hated epic play on both occasions i forayed into it so i have no experience with it.

I should point out that epic monsters technically include CR 21 dudes who are probably not even strong enough to be a good boss monster at level 20. An epic monster doesn't have to be for epic characters to fight; they might just be for 19-20th-level characters' boss fights. Like most of the Monster Manual's epic dragons are and (for an evil game) a solar might be.

[Mulletmanalive]

I came up with a good idea and i'm goint to make a full elder evil template for a cyclic arrising.

I ended up Homebrewing all nine of the Dukes of Hell for the request thread so i may as well use them: Binder gone hideously wrong and turned harmful harbinger of horribleness, anyone?

[FlyingWhale]

I had a thought about using common ideas, such as; greed, strife, pestilence, fear, death, war, etc etc and making them into a "job" like template. Just, something that you acquire.

MY entry, if it will work out, is the DEATH template... The creature with said template actually takes up the position of DEATH INCARNATE, or what have you.

Quick example, Morin, a 2nd level Warrior 1st level Rogue is in a skirmish just outside of town when a stray arrow hits him in the neck. As he lays bleeding in the grass, a shadow slowly approaches from behind, it reaches a long scythe blade to him but pauses momentarily. Morin isn't dead, yet, the figure seems to check an hourglass, pulling back the cowl of his cloak revealing a alabaster skull. Morin reaches for his sword, then thrusts it into the skull, splitting in half. Skip ahead a few odds and ends I will reserve for fluff and such, Morin has usurped Death and is now the deliverer of souls.

So, my big question, has this been done? I know we have Gods(esses) of death and such, but has there been an exact depiction of "The Grim Reaper" or "Death" who single-handedly guides all souls to their appointed place? I am sure I have seen Valkries and the like, but this Death I am making actually cuts the tether of life from said soul and body... Any help GITP??? I googled a bit and checked with some older dudes of lore and they dont seem to recall anything too similar to my idea at all.

[BisectedBrioche]

I'd make it something more along the lines of "death chooses people to become his subcontractors". The idea that a 3rd level character can kill the personification of death feels like a bit of a stretch to me...

[Debihuman]

Grim Reaper is a monster in the Ravenloft line that collects the souls of the dying if that's what you mean. It appears in Denizens of Dread page 107.

Charon also fills that role see: The Tome of Horrors Revised pg.78 for DAEMON: CHARON (BOATMAN OF THE LOWER PLANES).

Debby

[FlyingWhale]

Ah, thanks Debihuman and Bisected8!!!! I will go with the subcontractor... Though after flipping through, I still don't see the same idea, just the same name and basic legend/lore n such. Thanks again! wish me luck

Edit: The killing Death in one hit by a lowly guy was an idea that even in the worst of circumstances, there's still a .0162% of rolling 3 20's... Even Death loses his edge after a few millenniums

[Debihuman]

I'm not crazy about this contest.

According to the rules: "All entries this month must be a template that either A. increases a creature's CR by 20 or higher or B. Can only be applied to a creature with 20 or more HD. The sample creature need not be original or unique, only the template must."

I just have one comment: creating a template that only increases CR but not HD ends up being a badly designed template. They tend to have significant weaknesses not accounted for that the PCs will exploit. For example, it may be hard to kill due to SR, Damage Reduction, etc. but the PCs will find a way to push it off a cliff so it dies from falling damage. Yes, these things are fun to make, but they are terrible for actual play. See my Paragon Cat of Legend as an example of how bad this can get: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=97.

Debby

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I just have one comment: creating a template that only increases CR but not HD ends up being a badly designed template.

Then have the template add HD.

For example my Pollen Mother template.


The purpose of this contest is to make balanced, CR appropriate creations. If most epic templates are badly done then make sure yours isn't

[Glimbur]

I'm not exactly sure what CR to put on this thing. Ideas?

[Debihuman]

One more thing: these creatures will be epic and everyone will be citing to feats that aren't in the PH, DMG and MM. If you use a feat that isn't in one of these books please cite to it. All you have to do is note which book the feat came from. It saves me a lot of time to not have to Google search every feat to figure out which book it came from so I figure out if the numbers for the statblock are right. You can also link from the Online SRD here: www.D20srd.org.

It also helps to have a Creation Notes section. There's a lot you can put in there that keeps me from losing my mind when I critique these. This is also good if you use house rules to identify them so I don't think something you did on purpose is a mistake.

VT, perhaps you should note in the contests that you've asked me to critique the monsters on this thread.

Debby

[Debihuman]

Taking a look at our first contestant: Gloopy.

First, Size and Type are missing. It looks like it should be Gargantuan Ooze (Augmented Magical Beast).

Normally, if the HD are unchanged, the creature gains the Augmented subtype.

Augmented Subtype

A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

Rough CR estimation using Vorpal Tribble’s Handy-Dandy CR estimator

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.

390 divided by 6.5 = 60 plus 4 for AC (so close to 5 but it's still only 4) = 64 plus 5 special attacks = 69 plus 11 special qualities = 80 divided by 3 = 26.666.... CR = 26 unless my math is wrong. [And it was initially because I am math impaired].

A 20 HD creature with CR 26 might not be as much as a challenge as you'd hope.

Another thing, you changed all the feats from the initial creature's list of feats. Nowhere in the Template does it state that the creature gains and loses feats. You have some 'splaining to do on this one. A normal Kraken has these feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will.

Did you recalculate the skills for the loss of 2 to Spot and Listen from Alertness?

Debby

[Glimbur]

Thanks for the catch on not actually listing Gloopy's type.

I'm not terribly excited about adding hit dice with Chosen of Juiblex because it would make the most sense to make them Ooze hit dice and the possibility of two different kinds of racial hit dice is... worrisome at best. It's probably a better idea to drop the damage on the acid and the constrict and reduce the stat boosts so the CR is more in line with its HD.

Honestly, I changed the feats on the kraken because the listed feats are not very good. It wasn't intended to be part of the template, just DM fiat to make the monster more interesting. Martial Studies generally only come up once an encounter (so once in the monster's life) but they spice up the fight. I wanted to give it Combat Reflexes to really work that prodigious reach but it doesn't have the Dex for it.

I hadn't taken two off of the spot and listen for the lack of alertness, thanks for that too.

By VT's CR guidelines, the stock Kraken is about CR 18, and that's not including its seven possible attacks a round. By the book a Kraken is only CR 12. I guesstimated the template at about a +5, without a rational basis, which makes it 20 HD at CR 17 which is still low. But it has huge Con and Str and is rather frightening in melee which it can do at a large range.

[Debihuman]

Thanks for the catch on not actually listing Gloopy's type.

Just doing my job here :-)

I'm not terribly excited about adding hit dice with Chosen of Juiblex because it would make the most sense to make them Ooze hit dice and the possibility of two different kinds of racial hit dice is... worrisome at best. It's probably a better idea to drop the damage on the acid and the constrict and reduce the stat boosts so the CR is more in line with its HD.

You'd never have 2 sets of racial hit dice. Magical Beast or Ooze, the choice is yours. You just have to state it up front as part of the template.

Honestly, I changed the feats on the kraken because the listed feats are not very good. It wasn't intended to be part of the template, just DM fiat to make the monster more interesting. Martial Studies generally only come up once an encounter (so once in the monster's life) but they spice up the fight. I wanted to give it Combat Reflexes to really work that prodigious reach but it doesn't have the Dex for it.

For what it is worth, don't think the feats that a Kraken has are somehow substandard. The design of a Template is to show case a "standard" representative not a ramped up star of a monster. I understand your concern, but unless you are designing a variant Kraken and then adding the feats, you should stick to the standard monster. You didn't say this was a variant Kraken and I rightly called you out for it.

This is part of what good design is all about. You should be able to take the Template and use on an existing monster without changing the monster first.

You didn't showcase the template, you showcased a new uber Kraken and then added the Template without saying that's what you were doing. I simply called you out on this.

I hadn't taken two off of the spot and listen for the lack of alertness, thanks for that too.

No problem. But now you know why I hate epic creatures so much. They're a pain to critique.

By VT's CR guidelines, the stock Kraken is about CR 18, and that's not including its seven possible attacks a round. By the book a Kraken is only CR 12. I guesstimated the template at about a +5, without a rational basis, which makes it 20 HD at CR 17 which is still low. But it has huge Con and Str and is rather frightening in melee which it can do at a large range.

That's why it is an estimator and not a precise calculation. Some special abilities are worth more than others. I probably should have added more points for more powerful abilities. It didn't take into account your more powerful feats either.

You have a decent template and the purpose of the contest is to showcase it, not the souped-up version of a kaken that you then added the template too almost like an aside. You are missing the primary focus.

Here is my recommendation: Take the standard kraken and apply the template normally. See where it needs adjusting. You can alway add a bonus feat if you like or even two. Adding more than two bonus feats means that the creature should probably have additional HD. If the creature doesn't qualify for a feat and you want to hand it out -- give it as a bonus feat. Bonus feats don't have to meet the prerequisites like normal feats do.

Let the Template do the work for you.

Debby

[DracoDei]

Hmmm... maybe a fractal template, based on my fractal bears, that can only be applied to creatures above a certain size... I would have to expand on the history of the wizards who were responsible for their creation, and then...

Anyway, does this sound like an idea I should go with? Is it original enough to qualify? Would people vote for it? Someone did say they might have voted for the fractal bears if it weren't for the fact that they were so dangerous they didn't seem funny (which was the theme of that contest...).

[Debihuman]

Draco, I applaud you if you want to make Fractal Template. At the same time, I'm fairly sure that I'm not really up to critiquing it. I think I have brain damage from the first one.

VT, I think this competition may be more than I can handle for PEACHING. Could you lend a hand with some especially the Challenge Ratings. That's my weakest skill. I don't want to steer any of our contestants wrong.

Also, I'll be off line for a few days as I'll be on the road. I should be back by next Wednesday.

Debby

[Hyooz]

Yeah... I may be making a template to cover the three big Omni's (present, potent, scient) so in-depth PEACHing might get rough...

[un_known]

I've got a poem but I have no idea how to do 3.5 Epic Templates. Since I've only been working 4E and played some 3E.

What do I do?

[DracoDei]

My method preferred method is to forget about the rules to start with (at least mostly) and just imagine what the thing IS and/or what it DOES... then build mechanics around that.

Many templates change the type of the creature.

Also, try reading the linked threads in the sticky thread at the top of the homebrew forums.

[Debihuman]

Hyooz, you've done exactly what I said not to do. A template that adds CR 25 to a 1 HD monster without a commensurate increase in HD is not a good idea (more on that later but let's get to the meat of this template)

Your Medium Humanoid is missing its subtype (Human, Elf, etc.). I'd guess Human but it is missing a feat in that case. It is also missing its hit points. It should have 6. Also where did the +2 bonus hit points come from? It has a Con of 10. It also has the wrong attack if it owns a longbow. The longbow is missing from its attacks. Unarmed attack or Longbow. It is also missing Omniscient from its Special Qualities.

Your sample creature shows a CR of 20 but the CR listed in your template is +25, so I'm not sure what you were trying to do. It looks like you meant to say that the Challenge Rating: You add +25 to the base creature's existing CR (but that isn't what you did in the sample creature as it's CR is only 20 and it should be 25).

Where do the increase in Str and Dex come from? You state that it can change its Dex and Str scores but there should be a mechanic that goes with it. Can it swap Dex and Str or does it just pick it? If it is picked then there should be a way to keep it from being an excess for its CR rating, otherwise you are making a monster that has the potential to have ludicrous numbers for its CR. 70 Str for CR 25 is fine. 20,000,000 Str for CR 25 is stupid and yet that's what will be done with this template.

You neglected to say what the AC bonus was and what it is based on. Again if you give it any number freely you are going to exceed the CR and that isn't fair to the players. Put a cap on it to match CR, otherwise it might have a million bonus AC and that's just stupid. It looks to me like it gains a +25 armor bonus but you should state it outright.

Saves: What is the sacred bonus? It needs a mechanic here to go with it. This creature doesn't have an alignment requirement so why a sacred bonus? Evil creatures should get a profane bonus or there should be an alignment restriction. See your sample creature's alignment.

A sacred bonus (or penalty) stems from the power of good. Multiple sacred bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest sacred bonus applies.

Omnipotence: You need to list exactly what abilities are affected and that it affects spellcasting because it is too vague. He doesn't roll for initiative, attack, damage, saving throws etc.? He just gets to pick a number out of thin air? That's just asking for abuse. Why not just create the TPK and be done instead of bothering to apply this template. And how do you expect it to be CR 20? That's CR far more than 25 or 100. Unlimited power is unlimited abuse. Bad, bad idea. Again, a cap on this would be useful. The only truly omnipotent beings should be deities and this creature doesn't have a Divine Rank. Actually if this Template added a Divine Rank of 1 that would make a lot more sense but it doesn't. See SRD for more on Divine Rank.

Now, I did say that low HD was going to be its downfall. I have just one spell for you: magic missile. No save. It just does 1d4+1 damage at first level. At 9th level, it does 1d4+5 points of damage. Your creature has 6 hit points. A hit from magic missile does at least 6 points of damage (no save) and odds are that it will do 2 or more points. At 0 hit points, you can still heal yourself, but if it does 2 point of damage your sample creature is at -1 HP becomes unconscious and is dying. It can't heal itself because it is unconscious. So all the PCs need to do is stand around and wait for it to lose 1 hit point each round until it is dead. One spell and a low-level one at that will kill your omnipotent child. Of course, Power Word Kill does the same (it's not a critical hit and has no save) but why waste that when magic missile is just as effective?

Debby

[Hyooz]

Debi, thanks for the critique.

Looks like I missed a lot of stuff in the mess of text the template/monster ended up being. I'll clean up the inconsistencies and wrong-ness in places. That's what I get for working on it so sporadically. Thoughts get lost here and there >.<

A lot of your concerns I had in mind as I was making the template, and I might need to make a *Special Note* or something for CR, because while stuff like 20,000,000 Str is silly powerful, that's kind of the idea. I mean, yes, it's ludicrously powerful, and the template is stupidly abusable, but it's omnipotence. A DM who abuses the template is going to abuse his power anyway, and a DM who lets a player take it in a normal game is clearly out of his mind.

And yes, I know the HD concern is there, and it looks really stupid on paper, but I did it for a reason. A creature with all the power the -potence part of the triad gives it should only die if it lacks the intelligence and wisdom to use it properly. As written, magic missile wins outright, but a creature that can cast every arcane and divine spell at will, more than likely, have protections up. More than defense, but temporary HP and such out the wazoo. A smart creature/DM/player behind the wheel of this thing will make it effectively invincible. I agree it can be wholly ridiculous on its own, but I think it can also be a useful tool in the DM's arsenal.

That's not reflected on the sample creature because I honestly wasn't sure what to do with it. Several of its stats are wholly arbitrary (by design) and a lot of the other changes are going to come from spells, and aside from scouring the PHB and the SpC for every spell it might have active at any given moment, there's no good way to demonstrate what might be possible.

This isn't to say your concerns aren't legitimate. I had (and have) a lot of the same ones, but when I set out to make a template to make a creature omnipotent (or omniscient... or omnipresent... which might be its own separate issue) well... some aspects of typical good design were going to take a hit.

I'm grateful for the critique, don't get me wrong. I knew this would be rough >.<