Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[Arcanoi]

"some secrets of the Deathwatch are far too great to ever be told outside of it"

It's common unconfirmed knowledge that Nathaniel Garro, a Captain in the Death Guard Legion, was the first member of the Deathwatch after he fled from the massacre at Istvaan.

19 to 21 actually.

Huh? You need to buy a Mark of Khorne to get equal attacks. It's 30pts, which equates to 3pts a model in a 10 model squad.

Read - 4 or 5?

I hardly see how that's a crapload, you'd need some seriously unlucky rolls many times in a row to lose that big amount of points. In fact, rolling that badly should make all the guys who hate Mathhammer happy - after ally, you used up all the bad luck you had before combat!

If you roll a one, you'll lose approximately a third of your models, which means you're effectively paying 50% more per model. If you roll a 6, you lose a model a turn, which -will- come back to bite you, guaranteed, even if you are S6. Both of these are a large portion of the unit.

Except they can do things berserkers cannot even dream about doing

Like what?

and are way better if they're on receiving end of a charge.

Except they're not. They still have less A unless you pay 21pts a model, and are WS4 instead of 5, which will often mean being hit on 3s instead of 4s or 4s instead of 5s. And if the Berzerkers do get the Assault, they're far and away better.

Their customization potential is far greater. Their every drawback, be it S, A, I, Inv, or T, can be covered with a bit of wargear.

Berserkers might be good, but they're much less versatile.

If you're Biling them, you're building them to be an assault squad, or wasting points. Berzerkers are better at assaulting things, and about equal at being assaulted. This isn't an argument against CSM squads in general, just against Biling them.

Yeah, they only have Uber Grit

Which is better than TG, they don't forget how to use it when they charge for one.

Wait, CSM are Relentless and have Noise Blasters? Where does it say that? Otherwise, I'm legitimately confused as to what you're talking about here.

If you use the difference in points to buy more bodies, they hit more often, have more W, more staying power, and are much more expendable.

You'll have 6 Biled Space Marines for every 5 Grey Knights. You will wish every second of your interaction with Biled Space Marines that they were Grey Knights. Grey Knights are awesome, Biled Space Marines are not.

Well... actually, against 90% of the things in the game? FNP is way better than 5++, as it stacks with 3+. 5++ will mostly fail if the enemy dedicates one or more than one S8/ID attack, after all. Unless you're really lucky, Power Fist kills Bile as easily as any of these 5++ ICs. Anything less than AP2/S8? FNP laughs at it as it's not going to be very effective.

90% of the things in the game won't be directed against your IC. The Relic Blade (and every other variety of Power Weapon) attacks that ignore your armor save, and thus your FNP, will be. And they will kill Bile about twice as easily as any other Chaos IC, since he is WS5 and has no Invul Save.

Sure, 5++ might come in handy, but more on whole units, than on ICs, stopping 1/3 of the wounds is pointless if threatening weapon makes more than one of them. Even one wound is fatal with weapons that ignore FNP, and 5++ is going to not save them more often than not. It is, after all, an equivalent of IG armor save, and those aren't exactly famous for rolling it often.

Power Weapons also ignore FNP, and when your Bile goes down over and over and over again because you don't even get the chance of a save, you will wish he had one.

And IG aren't known for making their saves because so very few weapons actually let them take them. But when they get to take them, they're actually rather renowned for making about a third of their saves.

Which isn't that great of an issue, IMHO.

Or rather, it wouldn't be if 80% of the armies weren't Spees Mareens with goddamned EWs and 3+ saves. Sigh.

The number of Multiwound models with a save worse than 4+ can probably be counted with one hand. The only one that immediately comes to mind is Tyranid Shrikes.

[Cheesegear]

It's common unconfirmed knowledge that Nathaniel Garro, a Captain in the Death Guard Legion, was the first member of the Deathwatch after he fled from the massacre at Istvaan.

I thought he was the first Inquisitor? Or maybe he was the Inqusitor that founded the Deathwatch? Or something...We'll see when Garro comes out.

[Arcanoi]

I thought he was the first Inquisitor? Or maybe he was the Inqusitor that founded the Deathwatch? Or something...We'll see when Garro comes out.

Well, that's what I'd heard. My guess was that Qruze(or however you spell that name) would be the first Inquisitor.

[Cheesegear]

Well, that's what I'd heard. My guess was that Qruze(or however you spell that name) would be the first Inquisitor.

Probably. Like I said; Garro comes out soon. We'll find out what he does after Flight of the Eisenstein.

I'm still waiting on the creation of the Grey Knights. However, they were a second (or third?) founding Chapter made after the Heresy. So, probably wont see them for a while.

I do like the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Tenuous. It's like saying Grey Knights are Thousand Sons. You can see a few links, but it's a lot of straw-grasping.

More likely that the Grey Knights are one of the two missing legions. They are supposed to be a secret after all and their founding is unknown but happened around the time of the second founding and possibly before, so they could be first founding easily.

I was reading an old book that definately stated the possibility that they could have been created before the second founding, which implies during the heresy or even the great crusade.

They're secret after all. They could have been fighting daemons while the other primarchs were conquoring stuff.

[Cheesegear]

Unrelated, but I'd also like to point out that Malcador is awesome.

[SmartAlec]

More likely that the Grey Knights are one of the two missing legions. They are supposed to be a secret after all and their founding is unknown but happened around the time of the second founding and possibly before, so they could be first founding easily.

I was reading an old book that definately stated the possibility that they could have been created before the second founding, which implies during the heresy or even the great crusade.

They're secret after all. They could have been fighting daemons while the other primarchs were conquoring stuff.

There's a brief mention of the two missing chapters from Loken in the early books of the Horus Heresy series, which means those chapters definitely predate the Heresy; and from Loken's thoughts, it seems the two missing Chapters are considered traitorous somehow and that's why their details were expunged.

The Grey Knights were supposedly created after the Heresy, from scratch, using the Emperor's own genetic material.

[Cheesegear]

There's a brief mention of the two missing chapters from Loken in the early books of the Horus Heresy series, which means those chapters definitely predate the Heresy

Yes. It is fact that the Emperor created 20 Legions, and found 20 (21, including Omegon) Primarchs. However, Big Daddy E disowned two of them. The 2 Legions were also destroyed, their gene-seeds purged and all records of them deleted.

Common theory is that they're actually worse than traitors. Because there are a whole nine Legions who were traitors, but the Imperium still acknowledges their existence.

[lord_khaine]

Who is Omegon?

[Cheesegear]

Who is Omegon?

A massive spoiler. Read Legion by Dan Abnett.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm, ok if its Dan that has written it, then it might very well be worth reading.

[hamishspence]

On Deathwatch- Chaos Marine is unlikely- but renegade might be less unlikely. If a chapter were to go renegade, without actually falling to Chaos, and one of those guys decides his comrades have "crossed the line" and flees, he might in theory end up returning to the Imperium, and becoming a Blackshield.

From Deathwatch:

Who are these mysterious warriors, who shroud their Chapter symbols and often hide their faces beneath dark hoods? Some say they are the last of their Chapters, their Battle-Brothers having been lost to war, disaster or the irreversible destabilization of their gene-seed. Others whisper that these lone strangers might have remained true to their oaths while all of their fellows turned against them. Some may even be traitors turned back to the light, but haunted by a life of sin and blasphemy they can never confess.

So- former Renegades does not seem impossible.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There's a brief mention of the two missing chapters from Loken in the early books of the Horus Heresy series, which means those chapters definitely predate the Heresy; and from Loken's thoughts, it seems the two missing Chapters are considered traitorous somehow and that's why their details were expunged.

Anything the primarchs were told could have been a lie. The Emperor supposedly lied to the majority of the populous about the existance of chaos. I haven't read the Horus Heresy books, so I don't know how much he told the Primarchs about it.

The Grey Knights were supposedly created after the Heresy, from scratch, using the Emperor's own genetic material.

Which is a blatant Red Herring, since the primarchs were supposedly "the Emperor's sons", eg contained his genetic material, and the Emperor was not a space marine, so the Grey Knights can't have him as their primarch.

Yes. It is fact that the Emperor created 20 Legions, and found 20 (21, including Omegon) Primarchs. However, Big Daddy E disowned two of them. The 2 Legions were also destroyed, their gene-seeds purged and all records of them deleted.

Not actually stated in any fluff I read. The missing legions are mentioned as removed from records, but that also means there's no clarification that they were destroyed, only that their fate became a secret.

Common theory is that they're actually worse than traitors. Because there are a whole nine Legions who were traitors, but the Imperium still acknowledges their existence.

Any theory is as good as any other once you exclude the deliberately stupid ones.

From the Ultramarines Codex (aka the 2nd ed space marine codex):

The Grey Knights were the first of the new chapters to be created during the second founding. They are an exception among the second founding chapters in that they have no antecedants, their gene-seed was engineered from sources unknown. The history of their creation is not a matter of record and even its inclusion in the Second Founding is debatable. There are hints in the Adeptus Record that the chapter was created by the Emperor during the Great Crusade.

So:
Created during the great crusade +
Not derived from the geneseed of a pre-existing chapter
=First Founding.

No records of their creation + first founding = Missing legion.

So the Emperor finds one of the unknown primarchs and tells him to make his legion into secret daemonslayers, deletes their existance from the records of all but the proto-inquisition and tells the other primarchs that one of their brothers had a regretable accident.

The Grey Knights are chapter 666, but that's doesn't mean they were the 666th chapter to be created since that would conflict with them being believed to be "the first second founding chapter". They could easily have been assigned a new number after the record of them being a <20 numbered chapter was deleted.

Rogue Trader era fluff makes it clear that the Inquisition was set up by the Emperor pre-heresy, but that's been explicitely retconned for years now. While the Grey Knights may have been intended as a missing legion by the writer of the Ultramarines codex, that's also easily retconable.

Its all presented as "hints and rumours" in the fluff, so you can decide what you want.

[hamishspence]

In Mechanicum, Rogal Dorn and Malcador are talking about the 13 legions they can muster to face Horus (there are unaware that some have already gone over. Dorn muses "Would that it were fifteen" and Malcador responds "Do not even think of it. They are lost forever"- this is usually taken as referring to the 2 deleted legions.

[Closet_Skeleton]

In Mechanicum, Rogal Dorn and Malcador are talking about the 13 legions they can muster to face Horus (there are unaware that some have already gone over. Dorn muses "Would that it were fifteen" and Malcador responds "Do not even think of it. They are lost forever"- this is usually taken as referring to the 2 deleted legions.

It clearly does, but it doesn't contradict the possibility that the primarchs were lied to. Maybe Dorn knows that the Grey Knights are in theory contactable and would fight against Horus and Malcador is just reminding him that he isn't supposed to talk about them.

[hamishspence]

On Grey Knights- just because it's hinted that they were created in the Great Crusade, in one book, doesn't mean that's true. But then again, just because their geneseed was "said by some" to have come from the Emperor's flesh, doesn't guarantee that's true either.

Codex Imperialis (the generic 2nd ed fluff book for all the armies) has this to say:

The Chapter was the sole creation of the mysterious Second Founding at the beginning of the 31st Millennium. It was designed to fulfil a specific function, to fight daemonic forces in close combat either in space or on the ground. Its original Space Marine brothers were genetically engineered and surgically adapted along the same lines as the original founding but also received additional bio-engineering in keeping with their specialist role. As a result they are mentally tougher than most Space Marines and many of them are psychic. Space Marine psykers of the Grey Knights undergo their own rigorous program of training and screening, so that they are amongst the strongers psykers of the entire race.

Compare with the 3rd ed Codex Daemonhunters:

Legend tells that it was around the time of the Second Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret chapter of Space Marines. The fragile Imperium had only just survived the galactic civil war of the Horus Heresy, and was still very much at the mercy of the powers of Chaos. The Emperor understood that it would require a dedicated band of incorruptible warriors to protect it from the dread creatures of Chaos in the days to come, and so the creation of the Grey Knights was undertaken in great secrecy. Where other Space Marine chapters were created from the gene-seed of existing Chapters, the Grey Knights were unique in that their gene-seed was said by some to have come from the Emperor's own flesh. The Ordo Malleus was in its infancy at this time, the corruption of Horus lending new impetus to the creation of an order tasked wih the hunting and elimination of the daemonic.

Maybe the Grey Knights are a hybrid of Space Marine design, and Adeptus Custodes design? Both are engineered superhumans- but the Custodes didn't require a primarch.

the "Additional bio-engineering" in the 2nd ed version- can apply to "adding some of the Emperor's own genetic material into the process".

[Winterwind]

Anything the primarchs were told could have been a lie. The Emperor supposedly lied to the majority of the populous about the existance of chaos. I haven't read the Horus Heresy books, so I don't know how much he told the Primarchs about it.

Nothing whatsoever. Upon every encounter with daemons or any other Chaos-related thing, the primarchs were completely ignorant and utterly shocked. Magnus was probably the only one who knew about what lurked in the Warp.

And, yeah, no matter what the primarchs or anyone else states about the two lost legions, that still doesn't preclude the possibility that these are just lies they were told as part of a giant mystification in order to hide the existence and/or origin of the Grey Knights.

What I'm wondering more about is, why? What purpose does surrounding the Grey Knights in so much secrecy serve? One would think having the Grey Knights stand there as shining paragons of virtue against the darkness of Chaos could only be a morale-boost for everyone in the Imperium.

...I think we really should revive the fluff thread, or (if it's too long gone) start a new one.

[hamishspence]

And, yeah, no matter what the primarchs or anyone else states about the two lost legions, that still doesn't preclude the possibility that these are just lies they were told as part of a giant mystification in order to hide the existence and/or origin of the Grey Knights.

...I think we really should revive the fluff thread, or (if it's too long gone) start a new one.

It's too long gone: 8/7/2010- nearly two months.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...arhammer+Fluff

In 2nd ed, the existence of the Grey Knights is pretty well known- it's their role that's hidden.

(But then, in 2nd ed, even the Ordo Malleus was far more secret than the rest of the Inquisition).

[Closet_Skeleton]

First edition has the whole "every soldier who fights alongside the Grey Knights are killed afterwards, except for space marines who are mind wiped" thing.

But first edition Grey Knights fought in tactical squads with a single missile launcher and flamer, had captains, chaplains and apothecaries. Their halberd wielding psychic hood wearing* terminators were added later in white dwarf.

The Emperor wanted to hide chaos from the populous, since apparently not believing in daemons weakens them. First edition states that the Emperor's role is to protect humanity until it can evolve into a fully psychic race capable of withstanding daemons. Until then he soulbinds and eats psykers to keep the universe safe from daemons.

I have no idea if the standard member of the Imperium is supposed to know about the existance of chaos or not. Telling space marines that daemons aren't real seems kind of pointless when they have rivalries with chaos legions that they know to exist.

*psychic hoods and aegis suits were the same thing, with standard librarians wearing aegis suits

[Cheesegear]

I have no idea if the standard member of the Imperium is supposed to know about the existance of chaos or not.

No. No they're not. Because if you know about Chaos, you can think about Chaos. And Chaos can find you if you do that. Ignorance is Bliss.

[SmartAlec]

Mentioned it a couple of times, but it's pertinent here.

The explanation I recieved of the missing chapters was that when Rogue Trader was being written, 20 of the folks working in the Studio at the time were asked to come up with ideas for Space Marine chapters. This is why they're quite wildly different. Two guys left the company before RT was published, though, under bad circumstances -and their Chapters were 'expunged from the records' as a sort of meta-referential slap in the face.

Thus, it's very unlikely that the missing chapters would be the origin of anything as illustrious as the Grey Knights, as they're considered 'worse than traitors' as a GW company joke aimed at the two guys who left.

Feel free to take this story with a pinch of salt, mind. It's anecdotal, from Adrian Wood.

No. No they're not. Because if you know about Chaos, you can think about Chaos. And Chaos can find you if you do that. Ignorance is Bliss.

I think they know that there's something bad out there; just none of the details. The term 'Ruinous Powers' is often used, I think. It's a term that gives the impression that the Chaos Gods are bad without referring to them as Gods or as Chaos.

[Issabella]

Speaking of Tournaments and results, the North American results where up, I was wondering if this spread of armies is considered typical? I wish they would break up the SM armies by book instead of lumping them together.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/co...?aId=13200005a

Rough count: (Of store winners, over all top three was IG, SM, Tyranids)

Space Maries: 23
Orc: 6
Tyranids: 6
Chaos Marines: 5
Eldar:5
Tau: 3
Daemons: 3
Necrons: 3
Imperial Guard: 2
Dark Eldar: 2
Sisters: 1

(no Grey knights it seems)

[Arcanoi]

Around here you'd probably see a few more IG, but yes, that's a pretty standard spread.

[Trond Forgelighter]

Speaking of Tournaments and results, the North American results where up, I was wondering if this spread of armies is considered typical? I wish they would break up the SM armies by book instead of lumping them together.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/co...?aId=13200005a

Rough count: (Of store winners, over all top three was IG, SM, Tyranids)

Space Maries: 23
Orc: 6
Tyranids: 6
Chaos Marines: 5
Eldar:5
Tau: 3
Daemons: 3
Necrons: 3
Imperial Guard: 2
Dark Eldar: 2
Sisters: 1

(no Grey knights it seems)

Yeah I guess this looks pretty normal, though I think this speaks more about what armies are used the most then actual power. Space marines get the most wins just cause they get played so much. don't get me wrong they all of the marine codecies (excepting DA) can make very good armies. I would have expected IG to be much higher on the list and chaos quite a bit lower. Chaos is suffering from a very old codex and they can't put out the mech to withstand truly optimized IG/SW/BA/Tau/Tyrandis/Sisters/some dark eldar lists. That said their capable against average army lists so if these events were using comp then it makes sense.

[Cheesegear]

Rough count: (Of store winners, over all top three was IG, SM, Tyranids)

That's a bit weird. Should've been Space Wolves, Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

Space Maries: 23

'Space Marines' is fairly generic. Any idea of how many were running Space Wolves or Blood Angels, or - depending on points - anyone brave enough to run Dark Angels?

Daemons: 3

That's actually about three too many.

Otherwise, looks like a fairly standard spread.

[Issabella]

Unfortunatly the Games workshop site only lists them as "space marine" so no idea what was actually played.

[Lycan 01]

I always thought the reasoning for the 2 Expunged Legions is so players could make up their own chapters and have fun with the game without fluff-fanatics spazzing out and biting their faces off. Also, I heard that the 2 missing Patriarchs are rumored to have died or dissappeared before the Emperor could find them and start their chapters, or however the Primarch stories went.

I do like the idea of the Grey Knights being one of the mysterious forgotten chapters, though. Its a nifty idea to toy with, as possible or far-fetched it may be.

[Cheesegear]

I always thought the reasoning for the 2 Expunged Legions is so players could make up their own chapters and have fun with the game without fluff-fanatics spazzing out and biting their faces off.

/sigh.

It hurts my brain when people mention this. Yes. That might have been how it was. About 15 years ago. However, that was back when the fluff was nowhere near as solidified as it is now. Now, saying that your Chapter is one of the two 'missing' Legions (not Chapters), is likely to get your head punched in.

Because now it's massively unoriginal, and clearly shows that you didn't try very hard. Claiming that your Chapter is First Founding, when there is literally 982 other Chapters to choose from. There are currently 756 un-named Chapters with which you can do whatever you want without limiting yourself to the First Founding.

Hell, of the 266 non-First Founding existing Chapters, about half of them have no existing Fluff beyond a name and a colour scheme. And about a third of them don't even have colour schemes.

There is no reason that you should claim that your Chapter is one of the two Missing Legions.

Also, I heard that the 2 missing Patriarchs are rumored to have died or dissappeared before the Emperor could find them and start their chapters, or however the Primarch stories went.

The Emperor definitely found all 20 Primarchs. During the Horus Heresy books there's more than a few nods towards the two missing ones. And it's definitely implied and pretty much outright stated that the other Primarchs miss them.

Unrelated, but, aside from Rogal Dorn, all of the other Primarchs come off as massive jerks in the Heresy books.

I do like the idea of the Grey Knights being one of the mysterious forgotten chapters, though. Its a nifty idea to toy with, as possible or far-fetched it may be.

Except that the Grey Knights and Inquisition were created after the Heresy to combat Chaos after half the Legions fell. Grey Knights are not First Founding.

Grey Knights are Second Founding. Perhaps third.

[Lycan 01]

Okay, okay, sorry. I'm not the best and most well informed when it comes to the history of 40K fluff, especially with the bazillion space marine chapters and such. Cut me a bit of slack, would you kindly?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Speaking of Tournaments and results, the North American results where up, I was wondering if this spread of armies is considered typical? I wish they would break up the SM armies by book instead of lumping them together.

Here 's probably more like Orks 3, Eldar 7, Daemons/Necrons 0, IG 9.