Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[Gruffard]

Because with a Sky ray you can shoot all 6 shots in turn one and watch all your enemies transports go boom, and maybe a light tank. Your hammerhead takes 6 turns to shoot 6 shots, how often have you seen your tank last every turn?

[DaedalusMkV]

I kind of like to keep a Skyray around. Unlimited range, and no LOS necessary from the Skyray. It really depends on your table size, I guess. If you have enough seekers on just your DF and Piranhas, don't use it. I like the HH better, overall. But for those hard-to-reach places, I prefer the Skyray.

Fair enough. Unlimited range is no big deal; 72" plus your full move should cover the full table and you still need LOS and range from your static, shorter-ranged Markerlights.

Also - with the amount of Bonding Knives you have, you might really want to take a look at Farsight/O'Shova

I hope that was a joke... Because I want nothing more than to drop half of my Pathfinders and Hammerheads so I can grab Farsight and use all those extra Crisis Suit models I don't have. To save 20 points on Bonding Knifes. That would be excellent.
I know it was a joke. But don't tell anyone XD

Because with a Sky ray you can shoot all 6 shots in turn one and watch all your enemies transports go boom, and maybe a light tank. Your hammerhead takes 6 turns to shoot 6 shots, how often have you seen your tank last every turn?

Quite commonly? About five games in six at least one of them lasts the game, and often both of them as well. They're Hammerheads; they're harder to kill than Land Raiders at range, and plenty fast to avoid enemy attacks.

Admittedly, I've never used a Sky Ray myself, and I haven't run any Seeker Missiles since the very beginning of 5th edition over 2 years ago, so maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like the Hammerheads are so much more useful. But hey, I'm still contemplating the 'Ray. I might give it a shot. I do love my Railheads, though...

[Gruffard]

If I run 3 heavies I tend to do one Broadside team, one Hammerhead and one skyray. For balance in options, but overall it depends on in what point league I am in. I tend to find a team of broadsides and a hammerhead is more then enough to cover most heavy tanks, and the seeker missiles can be used for the transports/lighter tanks. Plus I love firing off more then half the payload in the first turn and forcing a few units to footslog it.

[dsmiles]

Fair enough. Unlimited range is no big deal; 72" plus your full move should cover the full table and you still need LOS and range from your static, shorter-ranged Markerlights.

Shorter ranged markerlights with a scout move. They can be in place and you can use those seekers asap.

[crazedloon]

sky rays are a subpar option IMHO (never used or seen one used so take what follows with a grain of salt. edit:though I do play tau and know how the other heavy options work)

Skyrays replace/fill in for the taus troop options' fatal flaw i.e. no heavy weapons. It does this by allowing them to shoot heavy weapons (str 8 missles) The problem is that you are wasting another whole force slot (which has better options) to fill a hole. It would be sorta like if a imperial guard regiment could not have any heavy weapons in its platoons but had heavy weapons teams in the heavy slot. You could take heavy weapons teams to make up for the lack of teams in your troop slots or you can take the leman russes which are far superior. In this example the Russes are obviously hammerheads or broadsides.

If you feel the need to fill in your lack of heavy weapons with unlimited range missles just add them to your hammer head. Now your hammer head can do the same thing a sky ray can but also has a rail rifle. Or you can pick up a few piranha with seeker missles and fusions guns and you have much more effective vehicle hunting with the same weapons as the skyray.

[Cheesegear]

The idea with a 2:3 ratio was so that they would still get a fair number of attacks in at their Initiative, while the Storm Shields would help with survivability.

Storm Shields only really help if all your Terminators have them. Once you start taking more than 3 wounds at a time, especially from pesky pie plates and Plasma Cannons, you'll be allocating wounds to the Lightning Claws, and they wont last too long. Unless they're in a Land Raider.

If you teleport into your opponent's Deployment Zone, you'll find that Player Psychology will take over, and they'll FIRE EVERYTHING! at them. I know there are some people who are willing to use a 200 point unit for nothing except being a Fire Magnet. But, that's not my style. I don't like Deep Striking Assault Terminators. It gets...Messy. For me.

I may buy another Assault Termi kit in the future

You should have parts left over from your first box, yes? If so, buy the regular box of Terminators, get some cool parts (like a Heavy Flamer), and just use your spare Lightning Claws and Storm Shields on the regular Terminators.

I may ditch the termies until I can find a good way to work them into the list.

Ways to use Terminators.
Regular; Deep Strike with Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon. Metal Storm. I really don't like Terminators doing anything else. I suppose when they get really bored they can Power Fist a tank.
Assault, Lightning Claws:Thunder Hammers;
4:1; Add a Chaplain. Put in Land Raider. If you're using a Crusader, might want to go 5:2 and Chaplain, or 6:2.
0:5+; Hammernators. Do whatever you want. It'll work.

You don't need Hammernators if you're running Lysander. Or vice versa.

I'm tempted to go with an Ironclad I got recently, but that may turn out to be a bigger point-sink than a normal dread.

Depends how you use it. Mine never, ever, ever leaves home without a Drop Pod. Dual Heavy Flamers for winning times. Add He'Stan.

The abundance of Melta Bombs in the list is probably paranoia left over from my first 40k game where a drop-podding Ironclad slaughtered my infantry in hand-to-hand...

See? Ironclads. Drop Pods. ???. Profit.

though the fact I forgot about Combat Tactics

Speaking of...Are you sure you want to run Lysander? Combat Tactics is very good. Way better than Stubborn is.

As for the Heavy Flamers, I remember you mentioning that they're in the Terminator kit, is there only one in the kit? And how hard is it to modify them for normal Marines to use?

Yes, and easy.

Yeah, I kind of got a little carried away on the elite choices. Should've sorted out troops first, in hindsight. Might grab another tac squad and some sniper scouts. Maybe a Land Speeder Storm.

Are your opponents cool with proxy models? I highly suggest trying out a Land Speeder Storm before you actually go and buy one...They're not for everybody, to put it lightly.

Granted, he doesn't have Eternal Warrior but even if they do have EW it's still not something they can ignore.

I think you'll find that models with Eternal Warrior generally do ignore Power Fists. I know Lysander does.

I figured some multi-melta Land Speeders would work well at anti-armour work, considering their speed. Though this could be a case of 'good on paper, bad in practice'.

It is. But not with He'Stan.

Tip; I've mentioned He'Stan a lot. There's a reason for that. You should take him.

I had a feeling I was a bit light on troops, but wasn't sure how to work them in.

Really? Most people find working in Troops the easy part. It's working in everything else that's supposed to be hard.

Here's the list in full if that was too hard to follow:

...Right...

Spoiler

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Lysander - 200 Points

I don't think this list works with him very well.

Sternguard Squad (x10) - 340 Points
Power Fist, 4x Combi-meltas
+ Drop Pod
Locator Beacon

Why Locator Beacon? Do you Deep Strike your Assault Squad as well? Because that's a Terrible (capital T) idea. If you were using Vanguard, it'd be a different story.

Or are you Deep Striking Lysander? Because you don't need to. A Drop Pod fits 12, and Lysander loves Sternguard. Or maybe you already knew that.

Second, you're planning to Alpha Strike those Combi-Meltas. Problem is, you don't have enough of them. And you only get one shot. You need to hit. Use He'Stan. Or get more Meltas.

Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points
Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon
+ Razorback
Twin-Linked Lascannons

Nice. Although I think given the squad armament, you don't really gain anything by having a 75 Point Razorback running around.

Tactical Squad (x10) - 270 Points
Meltagun, Plasma Cannon
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol and Power Weapon
+ Razorback
Twin-Linked Lascannons

This one works better with the Razorback since a Meltagun is not a Plasma Gun. The problem with this squad is, though, to get the full effect of the squad, you'll be needing to Combat Squad every single game. Which you might not want to do.

...Don't feel bad. Building an 'optimal' Tactical Squad is actually one of the harder things that Space Marine players have to do.

Scout Squad (x10) - 227 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks
Sergeant Telion

No.
If you want a 3+ save, you can get Tactical Marines for the same price as a Scout in a Camo Cloak. Cloaks are the worst.

Telion is a waste. He's really not worth the points IMO. You know in this squad, alone, is 80 points worth of stuff. With the +75 points you've got from ditching the Razorback up above, you've got a spare ~150 points.

Which is a whole 'nother Scout Squad. Or Devastators with Missile Launchers. Trip-Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas? No, really. Any of those things would be better than Camo Cloaks and Telion.

Scout Squad (x10) - 180 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Camo Cloaks

Another 30 point waste. This puts you at 180+ points. If you drop Lysander for Vulkan, you get another 5 points to boot. And Ironclad in a Drop Pod with dual Heavy Flamers is 185 Points...Think about it.

Assault Squad (x10) - 230 Points
2x Flamers
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, Melta Bombs

Yep.

Total: 1717 Points

Are you supposed to have 1750? Or 1700? Either way, you've got problems with that points total.

There's a contradiction in that statement.
Pants...generally means bad.

Huh...So it is. Weird. I always thought that 'Pants' meant 'good'. Because, you know...Pants are awesome.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Quite commonly? About five games in six at least one of them lasts the game, and often both of them as well. They're Hammerheads; they're harder to kill than Land Raiders at range, and plenty fast to avoid enemy attacks.

How is a Hammerhead harder to kill than a Land Raider?

I get that it can stay out of range, to an extent, but it's FA 13, SA 12 and vulnerable to being shaken/stunned. I see other tanks popping them open all the time.

Not that there's anything wrong with them, cause they're still excellent vehicles. I just don't buy the unbreakable.

[Cheesegear]

Not that there's anything wrong with them, cause they're still excellent vehicles. I just don't buy the unbreakable.

Hammerheads...Unbreakable? Pretty sure those are the first things to die when I play against Tau. However, that is me, though. Most Medium/Heavy Tanks don't last past Turn 2 against my armies.

[onasuma]

I disagree with cheese on the camo cloaks issue. A 3+ cover save unit of scouts is suprisingly survivable (assuming its approprietly positioned). Ive got a small squad of camo cloaked bolter scouts (to anger him further ) in my Iron Hands army and they always seem to do pretty well sitting away from the combat.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I disagree with cheese on the camo cloaks issue. A 3+ cover save unit of scouts is suprisingly survivable (assuming its approprietly positioned). Ive got a small squad of camo cloaked bolter scouts (to anger him further ) in my Iron Hands army and they always seem to do pretty well sitting away from the combat.

Go to ground for a 2+ Cover Save

[Cheesegear]

I disagree with cheese on the camo cloaks issue. A 3+ cover save unit of scouts is suprisingly survivable (assuming its approprietly positioned).

You can get it to 2+ if you run Lysander or a Techmarine (by which I mean a Thunderfire Cannon) as well. Still, I'm just not one to rely on Cover Saves too much. The sheer abundance of low-cost Template and 'ingore cover' weapons makes cover fairly unreliable.

Ive got a small squad of camo cloaked bolter scouts (to anger him further )

Camo Cloaks...And...Bolters!? The nonsensery of the entire sentence boggles my mind. You're aware you can get Tactical Marines instead, right? ...For the same points cost!?

...Yeah, but you already knew Scouts with Bolters (let alone Camo Cloaks) would break my brain.

[dsmiles]

How is a Hammerhead harder to kill than a Land Raider?

I get that it can stay out of range, to an extent, but it's FA 13, SA 12 and vulnerable to being shaken/stunned. I see other tanks popping them open all the time.

Not that there's anything wrong with them, cause they're still excellent vehicles. I just don't buy the unbreakable.

I think we're getting into specific vehicle upgrades here like the Decoy Launchers and the Disruption Pods.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not up to par (knowledge-wise) on anything non-Tau, and I have to do a lot of studying before each game, so AFB I don't know what land raiders are capable of.

[ShadowFighter15]

Storm Shields only really help if all your Terminators have them. Once you start taking more than 3 wounds at a time, especially from pesky pie plates and Plasma Cannons, you'll be allocating wounds to the Lightning Claws, and they wont last too long. Unless they're in a Land Raider.

I did put them together under the assumption I'd be able to get them in a Land Raider, but I won't be buying the model of it for a while and I'm not sure how to work it into the list.

You should have parts left over from your first box, yes? If so, buy the regular box of Terminators, get some cool parts (like a Heavy Flamer), and just use your spare Lightning Claws and Storm Shields on the regular Terminators.

Might do, and if I have a body left over I might be able to make a Terminator-clad Captain/Chapter Master for future use.

Ways to use Terminators.
Regular; Deep Strike with Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon. Metal Storm. I really don't like Terminators doing anything else. I suppose when they get really bored they can Power Fist a tank.
Assault, Lightning Claws:Thunder Hammers;
4:1; Add a Chaplain. Put in Land Raider. If you're using a Crusader, might want to go 5:2 and Chaplain, or 6:2.
0:5+; Hammernators. Do whatever you want. It'll work.

You don't need Hammernators if you're running Lysander. Or vice versa.

*puts above quote into Notepad doc titled "Marine Tactics I'll Probably Forget"*

Depends how you use it. Mine never, ever, ever leaves home without a Drop Pod. Dual Heavy Flamers for winning times. Add He'Stan.

Was going to run it with one melta and one flamer, though that might be because the first thing the Ironclad in my first game did was immobilise my Rhino with its melta. I was also planning from the start to run it with a Pod; if I'm going to have a dread starting on my side of the table, he'll be packing the biggest guns I can get my hands on (which at the moment are the lascannon & missile rack from the kit). It'd take him too long to get across the table otherwise and he'd just be a big fire-magnet.

See? Ironclads. Drop Pods. ???. Profit.

I'd known before the game that Pod-clads could be scarily dangerous, but there's a difference between seeing it mentioned on forums and working it out from the codex, and actually seeing it in action.

Speaking of...Are you sure you want to run Lysander? Combat Tactics is very good. Way better than Stubborn is.

Which is my main problem. I'm wanting to run He'Stan, but part of me just keeps recoiling from the near-cheese. Though I may just bite the bullet and go with Vulcan.

Yes, and easy.

Good to know.

Are your opponents cool with proxy models? I highly suggest trying out a Land Speeder Storm before you actually go and buy one...They're not for everybody, to put it lightly.

They're fine with proxy models; all three games I've had so far (had one against an ork army yesterday afternoon - I lost, but it was pretty close: Pitched Battle Annihilation, lost 5-6 but the game ended early at the end of turn 3 because he had to head home. I might've been able to get another couple of kill points from blowing up some of his wagons) I've used a captain model to proxy a Jump-Pack Chaplain. Still haven't gotten around to gluing the Chaplain together yet.

I think you'll find that models with Eternal Warrior generally do ignore Power Fists. I know Lysander does.

Fair point. I'll see how the claw goes with the assault sarge.

It is. But not with He'Stan.

Tip; I've mentioned He'Stan a lot. There's a reason for that. You should take him.

I assume you mean "not without He'Stan."

Like I said, I'm leaning towards getting him. Especially after facing him in my first game; just about all of my casualties were from him and the Ironclad.

Really? Most people find working in Troops the easy part. It's working in everything else that's supposed to be hard.

Well I started off with the two tac squads and then sorted out all the other units before coming back to Troops. Don't know why, in hindsight.

Spoiler

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Why Locator Beacon? Do you Deep Strike your Assault Squad as well? Because that's a Terrible (capital T) idea. If you were using Vanguard, it'd be a different story.

Actually I can't remember why I put that on there.

Or are you Deep Striking Lysander? Because you don't need to. A Drop Pod fits 12, and Lysander loves Sternguard. Or maybe you already knew that.

I did, plus I wouldn't want to deep-strike an IC unless he was coming down as part of a squad.

Second, you're planning to Alpha Strike those Combi-Meltas. Problem is, you don't have enough of them. And you only get one shot. You need to hit. Use He'Stan. Or get more Meltas.

Like I said, access to combi-melta bits is kind of limited without spending stupid amounts of money (plus four of the Sternguard I've built so far have normal bolters). This is just making He'Stan even more appealing.

Nice. Although I think given the squad armament, you don't really gain anything by having a 75 Point Razorback running around.

Should I mount the squad in a Rhino or are they fine on their own?

This one works better with the Razorback since a Meltagun is not a Plasma Gun. The problem with this squad is, though, to get the full effect of the squad, you'll be needing to Combat Squad every single game. Which you might not want to do.

...Don't feel bad. Building an 'optimal' Tactical Squad is actually one of the harder things that Space Marine players have to do.

Might leave this squad as-is. See how it goes and change if it doesn't work out.

No.
If you want a 3+ save, you can get Tactical Marines for the same price as a Scout in a Camo Cloak. Cloaks are the worst.

Telion is a waste. He's really not worth the points IMO. You know in this squad, alone, is 80 points worth of stuff. With the +75 points you've got from ditching the Razorback up above, you've got a spare ~150 points.

Which is a whole 'nother Scout Squad. Or Devastators with Missile Launchers. Trip-Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas? No, really. Any of those things would be better than Camo Cloaks and Telion.

Fair enough, might go with the Attack Bikes (I like the models more than the other options you've listed and I've been wanting a way to get some bikes into this list).

Another 30 point waste. This puts you at 180+ points. If you drop Lysander for Vulkan, you get another 5 points to boot. And Ironclad in a Drop Pod with dual Heavy Flamers is 185 Points...Think about it.

This'd actually give me a good reason to finish that Ironclad (got the sub-assemblies all built except for the right arm and then I'll just have to glue the torso and feet to the legs, then stick it on the base... messed up the Hurricane Bolter though; glued the bolters in upside-down).

Are you supposed to have 1750? Or 1700? Either way, you've got problems with that points total.

It was supposed to be a 1750 point list, I was just stumped on what to spend the left-over points on. I'll make some changes to the list and see what it all adds up to.

[One Step Two]

I think we're getting into specific vehicle upgrades here like the Decoy Launchers and the Disruption Pods.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not up to par (knowledge-wise) on anything non-Tau, and I have to do a lot of studying before each game, so AFB I don't know what land raiders are capable of.

A Landraider is considered the pinnacle tank of the Imperium, and indeed ingame it is second only to the Monolith to many players.

14 AV on all sides, a half dozen or so Variations that can fufill multiple roles. But in most cases, it is an assault fitted heavy vehicle armed with devastating firepower. In its basic configuration the Landraider has an assault ramp with a 10 man capacity, armed with two twin-linked Lascanon and twin-linked heavy bolters.

Power of the machine spirit means that the Landraider can fire one more weapon that it should be able to on any turn, so rules for combat speed, crew shaken and crew stunned means little to the Landraider, so even the refuge of a glancing hit means little to it.

Power of the Machine Spirit is on every single variant of the landraider, so if you cannot kill it, chances are it will turn around and vapourise whatever could be a threat to it.

[dsmiles]

A Landraider is considered the pinnacle tank of the Imperium, and indeed ingame it is second only to the Monolith to many players.

14 AV on all sides, a half dozen or so Variations that can fufill multiple roles. But in most cases, it is an assault fitted heavy vehicle armed with devastating firepower. In its basic configuration the Landraider has an assault ramp with a 10 man capacity, armed with two twin-linked Lascanon and twin-linked heavy bolters.

Power of the machine spirit means that the Landraider can fire one more weapon that it should be able to on any turn, so rules for combat speed, crew shaken and crew stunned means little to the Landraider, so even the refuge of a glancing hit means little to it.

Power of the Machine Spirit is on every single variant of the landraider, so if you cannot kill it, chances are it will turn around and vapourise whatever could be a threat to it.

Range, Strength and AP rating?

Hammerhead with railgun: r:72", s:10, ap:1 (or r:72", s:6, ap:4, large blast, if you fire a submunitions round)
hammerhead with ion cannon (why?): r:60", s:7, ap:3

[Winterwind]

I'd known before the game that Pod-clads could be scarily dangerous, but there's a difference between seeing it mentioned on forums and working it out from the codex, and actually seeing it in action.

In the last 2v2 tournament last Saturday here, there was a team that brought some 8 or 9 Furioso, Death Company and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, in Lucius-Pattern Drop Pods from Imperial Armour (these being the ones that cost like 30 points more than regular Drop Pods, but allow to assault after leaving them immediately).

I hear they managed to practically table an army on their very first turn...

Which is my main problem. I'm wanting to run He'Stan, but part of me just keeps recoiling from the near-cheese. Though I may just bite the bullet and go with Vulcan.

Having played against He'Stan several times by now, I don't think the "near-" is appropriate in front of cheese.
I can, however, testify that he is tremendously powerful.

I assume you mean "not without He'Stan."

He was referring to your "good on paper, bad in practice" line. As in, multi-meltaing Land Speeders are good on paper but bad in practice - but not if you use He'Stan.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Range, Strength and AP rating?

Hammerhead with railgun: r:72", s:10, ap:1 (or r:72", s:6, ap:4, large blast, if you fire a submunitions round)
hammerhead with ion cannon (why?): r:60", s:7, ap:3

Str and Ap isn't the issue here, it's how killable you are at range that I was questioning. Yes, a Hammerhead has a better gun. (Although it could still lose a shoot-out with a Land Raider, as stun/shaken will turn your Hammerhead into a brick, but not a Land Raider).

[One Step Two]

Range, Strength and AP rating?

Hammerhead with railgun: r:72", s:10, ap:1 (or r:72", s:6, ap:4, large blast, if you fire a submunitions round)
hammerhead with ion cannon (why?): r:60", s:7, ap:3

Well for starters, all Landraiders are BS4, considering the majority of weapons are twin-linked. And something else about power of the machine spirit, just to add, using it, means you can fire at a different unit from what other weapons might.

Standard Landraider
2x Twin-linked Lascannons: Heavy 1, 48", S9, AP2.
Twin-linked Heavy Bolter: Heavy 3, 36", S5, AP4.

To this above landraider you can add a Multi-Melta (Heavy 1 24", S8 AP 1 Melta), and a Hunter-killer Missile (Unlimited Range, S8, AP3, One shot).

In regards to any of the weapons, power of the machine spirit means they can move 12" and still fire a weapon, which gives their lascannon a range of 60" and a 4+ cover save in addition to all it's other goodies to keeping it hard to hit.

[SmartAlec]

Well, there's a reason Land Raiders are 100 points more than a Hammerhead.

That said, at extreme range they've got similar odds - Hammerhead's single s10 AP1 weapon vs. Land Raider's AV14 vs. Land Raider's single s9 AP2 weapon vs. Hammerhead's AV13.

If you added a few of the available upgrades to the Hammerhead - counts as Fast, always obscured - things draw quite level.

Essentially, though, it's because of the two armies' very different underlying ideas. Space Marines - survivability and strength in redundancy; Tau - combined arms and evasion of enemy fire.

[Closet_Skeleton]

That said, at extreme range they've got similar odds - Hammerhead's single s10 AP1 weapon vs. Land Raider's AV14 vs. Land Raider's single s9 AP2 weapon vs. Hammerhead's AV13.

For tanks at extreme range, space marines have deep striking meltas.

Six S6 attacks at I5 on the charge? Damn right he does. Unlike alot of 4th ed heroes, the man is properly wargeared up to the eyeballs. Rites of battle? Win. 4+ invulnreble save for the _entire_ unit, extra nifty.

So he's as good as a cover save and worse than a techmarine. Woo. He's be even worse if Dark Angels hammernators didn't suck.

[One Step Two]

For tanks at extreme range, space marines have deep striking meltas.

And Blood Angels can Deepstrike Landraiders with metlas.


This reminds me, a member of my local club scratchbuilt a Storm Raven using a Valkyrie and a Rhino, I'll try and get photos this friday. Bloodstrike missiles: Scary.

[Closet_Skeleton]

And Blood Angels can Deepstrike Landraiders with metlas.

Except they have no bloody reason too, since they have combi melta sternguard like everyone else, and doa assault marines with melta guns (an okay sub par substitute) and doa vanguard veterans with melta bombs (a terribly overpriced substitute).

A deep striking land raider can power of the machine spirit a multi melta that it needs to pay extra points for (whoo, an expensive version of the worst form of dreadnought in a drop pod) or unload a unit with meltas (whoo, an expensive drop pod without a drop pod's special rules).

My Blood Angels army has managed two victories against infantry guard.

Spoiler

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Libriarian
Hand flamer, jump pack, fear of the darkness, unleash rage

Elites
Sanguinary Priest
1 with bike and melta bombs, 1 with power weapon and jump pack

Troops
10 assault marines
sergeant with power fist and hand flamer, 2 hand flamers

10 assault marines
sergreant with inferno pistol and power sword, 2 melta guns

10 tactical marines
sergerant with bolt gun and power fist, plasma gun and plasma cannon

Only about 3 assault marines survived both times, but the four flamers hitting those poor guard won the battle for me. That and feel no pain.

The master of ordnance hurt a lot though. I do feel that if he'd just given his sergeants power fists I wouldn't have stomped over him in every combat.

[Incomp]

In the last 2v2 tournament last Saturday here, there was a team that brought some 8 or 9 Furioso, Death Company and Ironclad Dreadnoughts, in Lucius-Pattern Drop Pods from Imperial Armour (these being the ones that cost like 30 points more than regular Drop Pods, but allow to assault after leaving them immediately).

I hear they managed to practically table an army on their very first turn...

Really? IA is legal at your tournaments? That seems silly to me...

Having played against He'Stan several times by now, I don't think the "near-" is appropriate in front of cheese.
I can, however, testify that he is tremendously powerful.

I don't think He'Stan is cheesy at all. His special rules are good, but they're a waste unless you build your army around them. (Meltas, meltas, meltas, hammernators. It's what I'd take anyway.) It's a case of getting your points' worth, really. However, He'Stan himself is not tremendously powerful. He has a captain's profile, IIRC, with a 3+ invulnerable save, a master-crafted relic blade and a heavy flamer. I'm not too scared of that.

[SmartAlec]

For tanks at extreme range, space marines have deep striking meltas.

Sure, but if you're going to throw in stuff like that into the 'duel', the other side could probably afford two Hammerheads.

[Cheesegear]

Sure, but if you're going to throw in stuff like that into the 'duel', the other side could probably afford two Hammerheads.

Which means jack. Since the Sternguard Combat Squad out of the Drop Pod and kill both tanks on Turn 1. I do it all the time.

There are more ways than Suicide Sternguard. I myself also like Attack Bikes, and regular Bike squads with Meltas. Scout Bikes with Power Fists are also fun. Same deal for Land Speeder Storms with Assault Cannons and Scouts with Power Fists that are in your opponent's DZ on Turn 1. Etc.

[Ninja Chocobo]

and a 4+ cover save

I think you have been misinformed.

The Hammerhead is the one with the 4+ cover at range.

Really? IA is legal at your tournaments? That seems silly to me...

Anyone who doesn't think so look up the Hades Breaching Drill. Yes, those are its abilities.

[SmartAlec]

Which means jack. Since the Sternguard Combat Squad out of the Drop Pod and kill both tanks on Turn 1. I do it all the time.

A combat squad? Do you mean a squad of ten divided into two combat squads of five?

[Winterwind]

Really? IA is legal at your tournaments? That seems silly to me...

Matter of fact, part of the reason these two people played a list as ridiculous as that is that they wanted to prove to the store owner that allowing IA at tournaments was a bad idea.

Alas, in one game they were up against an Inquisitor with two Mystics, who was able to mess up those incoming Dreadnoughts, and in another there was some special rule in place that said that all non-vehicle units came back over the table's edge after being destroyed, so them practically tabling the enemy before the enemy even got a single turn didn't accomplish anything. In the third game though, their opponents lost before getting a single turn. Still, they only made place 3 and didn't convince the store owner that IA is the most poorly balanced piece of squig-dung ever printed.

I don't think He'Stan is cheesy at all. His special rules are good, but they're a waste unless you build your army around them.

Which is why you do just that when you take him. And then, he becomes quite cheesy indeed.

(Meltas, meltas, meltas, hammernators. It's what I'd take anyway.)

That makes it even worse, as it proves he improves precisely the parts of the codex even more powerful that are the most powerful already anyway.

It's a case of getting your points' worth, really. However, He'Stan himself is not tremendously powerful. He has a captain's profile, IIRC, with a 3+ invulnerable save, a master-crafted relic blade and a heavy flamer. I'm not too scared of that.

Re-rollable S6 attacks combined with 2+/3+ saves are not scary? I beg to differ.

A combat squad? Do you mean a squad of ten divided into two combat squads of five?

Yes. I haven't ever seen Sternguard used in a different way.

[EleventhHour]

I think you have been misinformed.

The Hammerhead is the one with the 4+ cover at range.

Move 12", get a 4+ cover save. Use PotMS to fire a (las/assault cannon, etc).

Unless the newer edition changed it. I never really ever learned my way through the changes between 4th and 5th.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Move 12", get a 4+ cover save.

That is...not the case.
You get a 4+ cover save only if you are a Fast Skimmer that has moved more than 12".