Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XXVII: God Has Nothing to do With This

[SaintRidley]

Not much to say except for a nitpick with the newspost:

Unsurprisingly, given it's Mookie, but surprisingly given his self-proclaimed expertise in metal, Mookie did once again not do the research:

IMMORTAL, bad as they are, are not Death Metal. They are Black Metal.

</metal nerd>

I already revoked his metal cred during the Bland Arc.

I think he's trying to get it back.

And failing.



So what drew you to the language, Curly? I think part of it for me is the fact that I'm an etymology nerd.

[Neoriceisgood]

I remember the good old days when this comic was still about unlikely heroes saving innocent maidens.

[CurlyKitGirl]

So what drew you to the language, Curly? I think part of it for me is the fact that I'm an etymology nerd.

The entire reason I applied to the uni I did was because after the introductory first year the course split into Course I and Course II. Course II being the older, medieaval option with the ability to take papers in Old Norse (and Old Norse Literature), the Gothic language, Anglo-Saxon archaeology, Middle French, Middle Welsh, Old Irish and all kinds of fancy things like that. Not to mention being able to choose from any option in CI as well.

And OE is offered as an option in one of the compulsory papers (It was OE or MddE), and being the linguistic and literary nerd that I am I didn't even hesitate to pick OE.
Mainly because I knew I was going to pick CII, and we have two compulsory MdE papers, and only one on OE Lit. Plus MdE is relatively easy to read.

How about you? COmpulsory topic, or option? ANd what's the best part of your course so far?

[SaintRidley]

Complete Independent Study. My school doesn't offer it, and I got a taste for it by reading Chaucer in the original and wondering what it'd be like to do that with things like Beowulf.

So I asked around of some of my professors - my Chaucer professor had some book recommendations, my linguistics professor didn't know, and my Spanish professor studied it as part of his bachelor's in Germanic linguistics, but he didn't know where his books were.

My advisor was able to give me some real help, though. Her husband did his PhD in Anglo-Saxon poetics, so I've been going out to their farm weekly to work through translations and study the language better.

I speak English and Spanish, so the hard part is mostly dealing with remembering the declensions since I've never dealt with a language that declines as much as Englisc. Never taken German or anything like that, so I don't have a huge base of comparison.

Once I get into grad school, though, I intend to continue with Old English and get started on Old Norse too. I'm already at the point where I'm loving some of the words enough that I want to use them now.

I don't know. I'm weird. I'm triple majoring in Writing, Literature and Spanish. And I'm studying Old English in my spare time. And the Old English is starting to bleed into my poetry the more I pursue it.

[M84]

Heyall,

Yeah, but they eat motile plants, which may have some level of sentience since they choose targets and attack them like an animal would. And the WH40K orcs are actually mushroom. So technically, the DD orcs would be allowed to eat WH40K orcs.

One thing I'll say in Mookie's favor about his "Vegan" orcs: at least he didn't try to make their veganism a deliberate moral choice, thus making the "Veganism is good" aesop anvilicious. They are vegans because they can't digest meat. They probably wouldn't have any problem with eating Orks and Squigs.

I just wonder why Mookie bothered to give them this trait at all -- it almost never comes up and doesn't add anything to the overall story -- it's just a token effort to make his orcs different from other fantasy orcs.

At least with other orcs in media, the differences are an important part of the setting. For example, take WH40K Orks: their fungal lifecycle is what makes them such a dire threat -- once they "infest" a planet, nothing short of Exterminatus or a Tyranid feeding frenzy will get rid of them. In Tolkien's works, Orcs being a corrupted stunted subrace of the Elves is part of his overall interpretation of Evil's inherent weakness -- it cannot create, only imitate (badly). Warcraft Orcs are essentially no different from humans, which is kind of the point -- the two races have plenty of common ground and could get along if they ever worked past their difficult history together. It also makes it possible for players of WoW to sympathize with either side for the sake of roleplaying. In the Forgotten Realms, the Orcs' brutish evil is justified since their creator deity Gruumsh One-Eye is a monster who wants to destroy everything in creation that isn't an orc because he hates the other gods -- especially the elven ones. A GM can easily use this to make epic campaigns.

What does making DD orcs vegans do for the plot? Absolutely nothing. It just makes them even more Mary Sue-ish since Mookie is apparently a vegan as well -- while that probably wasn't his intent, it does seem like he is using his orcs to spread the "veganism is METAL" message. The only reason I don't believe that is the case is because DD Orcs are far from perfect -- the most sympathetic ones seen in the comic are a rapist and his victim who became a violent near-misogynistic brute.

@PersonalSaviour:

How can there be "stereotypical" orcs? Orcs don't exist! My earlier posts simply meant that DD Orcs would not fit in at all with WH40K Orks. Big difference.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Complete Independent Study. My school doesn't offer it, and I got a taste for it by reading Chaucer in the original and wondering what it'd be like to do that with things like Beowulf.

You don't do the original over in Trogland?
How bizarre.
The number of time since I was sixteen I seen the General Prologue in original MdE is astounding.
Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every eyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
whan Zephyris eke with his soote brethe
etc.

So I asked around of some of my professors - my Chaucer professor had some book recommendations, my linguistics professor didn't know, and my Spanish professor studied it as part of his bachelor's in Germanic linguistics, but he didn't know where his books were.

My advisor was able to give me some real help, though. Her husband did his PhD in Anglo-Saxon poetics, so I've been going out to their farm weekly to work through translations and study the language better.

I speak English and Spanish, so the hard part is mostly dealing with remembering the declensions since I've never dealt with a language that declines as much as Englisc. Never taken German or anything like that, so I don't have a huge base of comparison.

Once I get into grad school, though, I intend to continue with Old English and get started on Old Norse too. I'm already at the point where I'm loving some of the words enough that I want to use them now.

I don't know. I'm weird. I'm triple majoring in Writing, Literature and Spanish. And I'm studying Old English in my spare time. And the Old English is starting to bleed into my poetry the more I pursue it.

Clever clogs.
This site help any?
Or this?
Or ON?

I have more, similar sites if ever you want any. I'd post more, but I must dash.

[rocketpony]

I just wonder why Mookie bothered to give them this trait at all -- it almost never comes up and doesn't add anything to the overall story -- it's just a token effort to make his orcs different from other fantasy orcs.

IIRC it's there to explain why they got those big ol' choppers, but they're not inherently violent (supposedly), llike you'd expect a race of sentient predators to be.

the most sympathetic ones seen in the comic are a rapist and his victim who became a violent near-misogynistic brute.

Don't forget Outrage Chief! Whose curse in retribution for seeing most of his clan butchered was to introduce a rarely manifesting cosmetic mutation into the Callanian popuation, which was not only easily correctable through creepy alterist magic, but also easily confused with the non-curse based tuskmouth, and orcish blood. Which was really pretty reasonable of him, all things considered. As opposed to if, say, he'd cursed them with "All of your babies are now living bombs."

How can there be "stereotypical" orcs? Orcs don't exist!

I guess there is such a thing as a "stereotypical" orc, in that when you say "orc" you have expectations for what it's going to be like? (assuming you've heard the word before) In the same fashion that if you say "sheep," you have a general idea of the kind of animal I'm describing, size behavior etc.
It is kind of weird to call something an orc and then go out of your way to make it un-orcy. Like describing a race as "like sentient platypus people" except they don't have duck bills and webbed feet, and they don't lay eggs, and the males aren't poisonous, and basically they look like humans.

[M84]

Heyall,

IIRC it's there to explain why they got those big ol' choppers, but they're not inherently violent (supposedly), llike you'd expect a race of sentient predators to be.

Except fangs are best suited for eating meat, and tusks aren't really meant for eating either -- in real life, most animals with tusks use them for social displays of dominance, particularly among males, and for defense against predators -- in other words, violence.

Fang-filled maws w/ tusks and biologically enforced veganism don't mix, even in a fantasy setting.

Edit:

OC was responsible for the abomination that is Luna. That alone makes him unsympathetic.

[Kris Strife]

WoW-ish?

1- WoW didn't invent those stereotypes
2- WoW subverts the stereotypes about as often as it plays them strait.
3- Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine.

4- That's the Warhammer 40k stereotype.

[SaintRidley]

You don't do the original over in Trogland?
How bizarre.
The number of time since I was sixteen I seen the General Prologue in original MdE is astounding.
Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every eyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
whan Zephyris eke with his soote brethe
etc.

Inspired hath in every holt and heeth...

We do Chaucer in the original, since it's quite readable. We just don't touch him much at all until the university level. Which is a shame. And we don't touch Old English at all in the original unless you're studying it for a Master's Degree.

It's a bit disappointing, honestly.

Clever clogs.
This site help any?
Or this?
Or ON?

I have more, similar sites if ever you want any. I'd post more, but I must dash.

I think they'll help a lot. Mostly I use a combination of John Pope's Seven Old English Poems, Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Dictionary and the University of Michigan's pages on Old English grammar. But these will help me tremendously.

[Oracle_Hunter]

4- That's the Warhammer 40k stereotype.

Obligatory Penny Arcade Link

Re: Orcs

A look at Our Orcs Are Different may be helpful.

Spoiler

Show

Y'see, everyone uses tropes when they write; making reference to a common understanding helps engage readers within a story. Most people merely incorporate the trope into their works, but some people try to Play With A Trope to make their work stand out. However, playing with tropes is a tricky game: if you don't understand the trope you're invoking, or do a poor job of fiddling with it, you can easily end up with Narm or Unfortunate Implications. But there are certain easy ways to play with tropes that have the advantage of making your work look fresh without requiring a lot of thought; when applied to (largely) fictional concepts, these can be grouped as Our Tropes are Different. Specifically, the tropes in this index show how it is easy to take a generally understood fictional concept (e.g. orcs, wormholes) and change something about it to make it new without sufficiently novel that the author needs to spend time explaining the core concept. These listed concepts are now core to entire genres so they are amongst the most popular to tweak - which, in turn, makes their tweaking a trope of their own.

In Mookie's case, he does an exceptionally poor job of tweaking "orcs" as he does not try to reconcile his new traits with his assumed traits. Orcs are bloodthirsty savages despite being herbivores; herbivores not being known for their high energy consumption nor aggressiveness. Worse, he paints his new orcs with a rather tarnished brush - the Magical Native American - which creates the Unfortunate Implication that Native Americans are orc-like savages, not to mention the assorted tropes that are tied with "savage peoples" and white folk.

[Welf]

As said before, a unexpected good comic. I like Siggy's approach to annoying flashbacks. There is a reason why he is the most popular characters. A shame Mookie never really used his potential.

[SpekterofDavid]

"New" orks are the stuff that makes me cry. JUST MAKE THEM CLASSIC GAWD NABBIT, sob... I just am so tired of "Good orks", "Fast, smart, infected Zombies", "Cruel elves", "You go girl type heroins". There becoming stale to such a point that the stereotypes them selfs feel refreshing.

[HellfireLover]

Cruel elves and fair folk was pretty much the point of fairy tales, though. Thank the Victorians for the "pretty little flower-dwellers" image. The original tales of the Fair Folk were savage.

Oh hey. Been a while since I was here...

[Arakune]

No... no it takes exactly that to be a true Ork. Anything else - like honour, magic, sparklies, or a language - acts as Negative Ork Points. Or, in the local parlance, YOU IZ MUKIN ABOUT

No, no, no! It takes a lifetime of commitment to DAKKA to be a true ork.

[ericgrau]

Panel 6 demands use in slays. Get to work!

[Coidzor]

Cruel elves and fair folk was pretty much the point of fairy tales, though. Thank the Victorians for the "pretty little flower-dwellers" image. The original tales of the Fair Folk were savage.

Oh hey. Been a while since I was here...

Welcome back.

Also, Yes. Also, also, Pratchett's Fair Folk are the best combination of Cthulhu and Fey of all time. Of All Time.

[Deme]

Cruel elves and fair folk was pretty much the point of fairy tales, though. Thank the Victorians for the "pretty little flower-dwellers" image. The original tales of the Fair Folk were savage.

Oh hey. Been a while since I was here...

The goodness or badness of the fair folk was always variable in fairy tales: they could be very good, or they could make your life impossible. They couldn't be trusted, but you needed to be nice to them. They had morality based on who they were talking to, usually.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Panel 6 demands use in slays. Get to work!

You are quite right.

[T-O-E]

You are quite right.

I don't think that's a slay, it's more like what hopefully actually happened.

[Trazoi]

Sneaky Gate
Future Link

...okay? Is anyone trying to do anything in this arc, or are they just randomly walking around until they bump into something?

[TheLaughingMan]

Sneaky Gate

Annnnnd brief moment of adequacy over. Back to your scheduled torment.

[Bobby M]

Hi everyone, first ever post on GitP forums, just for you guys!

I've been reading Dominic Deegan for nearly 2 years, and I still love it. I've been reading these snark laden threads for nearly the entire time, and I love them as well!

Really not much else to say yet...except watching Siggy punch a flashback so hard it broke made me laugh until my sides hurt.

[TheLaughingMan]

Ah, another Rocketeer.

So, would that make you Meowth?

Regardless, welcome to our lovely abode.

[Trazoi]

I've been reading Dominic Deegan for nearly 2 years, and I still love it. I've been reading these snark laden threads for nearly the entire time, and I love them as well!

You love Dominic Deegan unironically, and you love the snark threads - but they haven't turned you to the Snark Side... *my mind breaks*

Stay around, please! We need fan input! It will help us make sense of this thing!

[Neoriceisgood]

If I had stopped reading DD for .. what ... 2-3 months? And the comic didn't constantly remind us where we are, I would've thought we were still in Maltak.

Mookie and Scenery.
Water and Oil.

[Palmer]

Drawing that one Orc ass makes up for years of giant balloon boobs, am I right?
Kinda looks like he just stuck a pair of (Dominic Deegan)boobs onto his butt, come to think of it...

[Trazoi]

If I had stopped reading DD for .. what ... 2-3 months? And the comic didn't constantly remind us where we are, I would've thought we were still in Maltak.

I know. This is yet another arc where the characters aimlessly walk around a wasteland waiting for random plot points to happen to them. I... I'm not sure I can take much more of this.

What is worse this time is that I don't know what anyone is trying to do, save perhaps for Siggy who is presumably mindlessly seeking revenge. Karnak is just randomly wandering through Hell having flashbacks. Loxo wants power and Bulgak wants out (can't blame him) and are... folowing Karnak for some reason? Do Loxo and Bulgak have a plan for when they catch up with Karnak? What's going on?

[Gez]

Panel 3: Lady Loxo disapproves of Infernorcmancer's lower tusk.

[Bobby M]

If I had stopped reading DD for .. what ... 2-3 months? And the comic didn't constantly remind us where we are, I would've thought we were still in Maltak.

Mookie and Scenery.
Water and Oil.

I always just mentally insert Bulgaria into the background, as I assume that's where the film version will inevitably be made for Syfy.