Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante

[Amphetryon]

Just nitpicking here, but Suel has the same BAB as Vigilante.
But I think the only workable feature of the Vigilante class are the spells. I mean, it has some skills, but I believe having to rely only on the smite for combat is too... it feels like an NPC class.

Mettle is really awesome but it is much easier to obtain by Pious Templar or Hexblade.

Mettle would be more awesome if it worked against a larger subset of F/W saves. Most of them are binary, unfortunately.

[true_shinken]

I do not agree with this. Full BAB is definitely not too much, as this is basically an urban ranger PrC with a crime-hunting flavor. Pious Templar, Blackguard, Prestige Ranger, Prestige Paladin, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice, and Suel Arcanamach are all half-casters with full BAB, good abilities, and most of them have 4+I or 6+I, I really don't see why this class has so much less (except for mettle being totally awesome, but there's other ways of getting it)

Suel Arcanamach is not half caster and does not have full base attack bonus.
I don't think full BAB would be too much for the Vigilante. Races of Faerun Bladesinger sports full base attack bonus and 4th level spells with actual class features, though the requirements are steep.

[WinWin]

Just occurred to me. Vigilante lacks Spot and Listen... How are you supposed to eavesdrop on the bad guys without those skills?

I think that Full BAB would be too good with the current class qualifications. Alertness is easily gained. The prerequisite skills can be a pain, but are not that challenging. Now if the requirements were even more strict, it would not be an issue (for me).

[OMG PONIES]

...any word from the judges?

[Amphetryon]

...any word from the judges?

I suspect some are just now starting to get off work, which means I wouldn't expect any judgments for at least a couple hours, at the absolute earliest.

I could be pleasantly surprised, though.

[Kesnit]

Pretty much. I have a paper due, so my entire day was spent on that. (Well, when I wasn't in class...) But I have the paper to the point I can step away from it for a bit, so I should be able to get to judging tomorrow.

[OMG PONIES]

Pish posh! More judges need to update GitP at work . In other news, my spreadsheet has been updated to include a switchable view of each competition so far by entry or chef, as well as hotlinks to each individual entry and post of judges' scores. If anyone wants a copy for their personal enjoyment or tweaking, send me a PM.

[Cieyrin]

I could be pleasantly surprised, though.

Well, if you insist...

I can tell I've been judging when my living room is littered in books when I get up in the morning. Usually a good sign, too.

As always, before I post my scores, I'm judging based on the characters, not the people who made them. I tried to be fair and consistent, in line with the guidelines I put forth, but I'm prone to error like anyone else. I enjoyed reading these, as I always tend to, and I applaud all who managed to enter a delicious dish, despite how bland Vigilante may have been.

Without further ado, the scores!

Dymphna
Originality: 4 VoP Monk/Paladin/Heir of Siberys is rather unexpected as an entry into Vigilante. Nice story to go with and hold things together.
Power: 3 Nonlethal Charger with limited magics. A spells known list for Vigilante would have been useful, as well as typical spells memorized for Paladin. You mention various spells but have no definitive list of what you're capable of magic-wise. Extensive skills and magic for out-of-combat utility is evident but in-combat utility beyond the nonlethal charge isn't evident, especially considering it's smite dependent, which you can do 3/day at most. You minimize many of the weaknesses of VoP, so you're not as party-dependent but you're still somewhat held back by not being able to use the power of WBL.
Elegance: 4 Technically, as a Human, you can't be an Heir of Siberys for the Mark of Shadow, since it's Elves only.Everything else is fairly in order, though.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4 Not the earliest entry but the SI was decently used, from the spell casting, Smite the Guilty and Mettle, to little things like Streetwise.

Final Score: 15/3.75

Viyana, The Unseen
Originality: 4 Ranger is a natural fit for Vigilante, but Master Inquisitive was a nice alternative to get necessary skills and Alertness. Pixie is uncommon as well. Light on the story but it told enough to get the point across.
Power: 2 Being a Pixie, however makes it difficult to be useful early on in your career, making it unlikely to be seen till the mid-levels, as you're too highly vulnerable at ECL 5 with only 1 HD. Being Greater Invis'd all the time helps but See Invisibility is easily available at ECL 5 and up, making it not fool-proof. You're very skilly but, once combat happens, regardless of what you do, it seems unlikely you'll be able to contribute much beyond hiding out and staying out of the way. You do hardly any damage and the majority of your spells won't affect combat much. The illusions could be useful but the save DCs aren't particularly high enough that they couldn't be overcome.
Elegance: 3 The build is put together decently, with the parts flowing decently from what bit to the next. The return to Ranger was a bit jarring, seemingly only for a feat, the companion and another Favored Enemy.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2 Vigilante only seems to be used for the skills and spells, with none of the other features really utilized, making me think you probably would have been better off using those levels in another class, like Bard. The only purpose for Vigilante in here seems to be to qualify for the contest.

Final Score: 11/2.75

Oduk
Originality: 3 Bards and Rogues are expected entries into Vigilante, though not a Divine Bard, let alone a Fochlucan Lyrist.
Power: 3 Oduk appears to be an unarmed bardic gish, with an interesting use of Fochlucan Lyrist to get dual progressions of Bard spells. Not quite sure why Oduk is going after unarmed combat over using a weapon but it's not hurting him in the slightest, I suppose. He has a fair amount of skills, including UMD, so he's fairly well rounded, though not overly powerful.
Elegance: 3 Some may frown on the usage of Divine Bard but the build is clean and well though out, except for the feats, as I see no clear need for all the Extra Music you gathered. They could probably have been better used for things like Dragonfire Inspiration or Metamagic Song, which would have given a clear reason for all the Extra Musics.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 1 You used Vigilante for the spells to get into Fochlucan Lyrist and then nothing beyond that, making it a stepping stone at best. Too bad this isn't Iron Chef(Fochlucan Lyrist), as you'd definitely get a 4 or 5 here but it's not.

Final Score: 10/2.5

Rhys
Originality: 4 Human Paragon/Paladin is a different means of getting into Vigilante, indeed. Shadowstriker is not something I see at all often, either.
Power: 3 You're a smiting meleer with some nice bardic spells to back you up. Decent saves plus Mettle and Evasion to keep you safe. Some feat choices leave something to be desired, as Battle Blessing is a very minor bonus when you have 2 spells a day affected by it, tops, and Sickening Touch has a very paltry effect, sickening a target for 1-3 rounds when you get it. Law Devotion is a little squandered as well, especially when you gave up Turning for Favored Enemy, leaving it usable 1/day. You're also exceptionally focused towards Undead killing, Evil slightly less so. A lot of your favorite toys disappear when not fighting those foes, which makes you little better than a Fighter without bonus feats. Shadowstriker perhaps would have been more useful earlier on, as it's not very relevant at the end of the build.
Elegance: 4 Nothing out of the ordinary and the hopping around that did occur made sense.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4 You use Vigilante primarily for the spellcasting, Smite the Guilty and Mettle, which is done decently to boost you up somewhat. The other bits got attention as they come forward and seem decently used.

Final Score: 15/3.75

The Judge
Originality: 5 Maug Cloistered Cleric/Thug Fighter is definitely not a usual suspect for Vigilante. Not expected in the slightest.
Power: 4 A Smiting Charger with tricks to continue to charge and knock people around. The only thing holding you back from being all overpowering is a lack of ability to deal with hard to reach enemies, like fliers, teleporters and casters. I kinda expected the Judge to pick up Swift Fly as one of his Vigilante spells known to deal with that, as the Stone Spitter does little more than harry said foes.
Elegance: 2 Here is where you seriously take some hits. LA Buyoff isn't guarenteed to be available in every game. Maugs don't gain a free 2k of grafts, only the ones without class levels, which you aren't. The 'Gains skills as Outsiders' appears to be an editting error, as Maug were probably an Outsider in an earlier phase of their existence before being changed to Extraplanar Constructs and their skills never got changed (Note: I didn't take points off for this particular point, just an observation). You're very diptastic about your PrCs, all going for more Smitings and interweaving them around Vigilante, which comes in late because of it. You gain Improved Sunder twice, once as your 15th level feat and once as a bonus feat for Shadowbane Inquisitor. Shadowbane Inquisitor isn't one of those PrCs that allow you to freely switch your bonus feat if you already have it, so you probably should have switched Vigilante 4 and Shadowbane Inquisitor 3 to gain Combat Brute. You also do nothing or at least very little with your Cleric or Pious Templar spells, as you have the Wisdom to get access to 2nd level Cleric spells and a few Paladin spells. They seem to be there just as entrance requirements into your PrCs, which can also be said of Thug Fighter.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2 You get into Vigilante late in your career and delay advancement for picking up goodies from your other PrCs, which takes away from Vigilante being useful to you. You focus a lot on smiting but you mostly use your other PrCs for it, ignoring Vigilante. The feature you make use of most is the casting, which you use reasonably well but not much beyond that. Seems tacked in for getting into the contest and probably would have been better off going Bard.

Final Score: 13/3.25

Nightwatch
Originality: 1 Bard/Urban Ranger is basically the suggested entrance into Vigilante. Also, congrats on making Batman. Your originality suffers for it.
Power: 5 Nightwatch is a full-blown gish caster who two-weapon fights with net and trident and then has skills for when those fail. He bleeds power.
Elegance: 5 Everythng plays nicely together. Nothing dodgy and flows well from one class to the next.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 1.5 Nightwatch's success is in spite of Vigilante, not because of. Replacing Vigilante with more Bard would probably work better, since the only thing he's using Vigilante for is the casting.

Final Score: 12.5/3.125

Allistair
Originality: 3 Ranger is a suggested path into Vigilante, though Marshall as an interesting alternative entrance. Using the Psychoactive skins as costumes is a nice touch.
Power: 4 Allistair is excellent for gaining tactical superiority over his foes, though, as you've said, his damage decreases significantly when not facing humanoids, humans in particular. Still, he works wonderfully as a support character.
Elegance: 3 The Draconic Aura bit can freely stand, as it's implied when they're talking about Dragon Shaman in Dragon Magic that these are merely more auras to choose from.
On the actual build itself, Allistair is very dippy, though kept in balance to avoid multiclass XP penalties. Cleric appears to be there just to exchange domains for Devotion feats. Marshall is a more natural fit, as it comes in early and sticks around for the show and genuinely adds to your value as a good support character. Improved Favored Enemy only increases your damage by +3 against all your Favored Enemies, not all the bonuses against one Favored Enemy.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4 You utilize all the features you gain from Vigilante fairly well, though I was surprised you skipped out of Vigilante before getting Mettle, which would have nicely boosted your save defenses quite reasonably. All in all, though, your class choices uplifted Vigilante into the spotlight fairly well.

Final Score: 14/3.5

Sally
Originality: 5 Domovoi Artificer? I hadn't even known the Domovoi were in Frostburn or that they existed at all till reading this. Definitely not expected.
Power: 4 Artificers are almost always powerful, plus you have minions to do battle for you. You always have toys to play with that you make for your purposes and that of your companions and minions. Your spell like abilities and Vigilante spells give you battlefield control, as well as things to do when combat isn't happening, right along with your pervasive skill set. Not overpowering, certainly, but respectably powerful, especially when you start making your minions.
Elegance: 4 You technically can't qualify for Renegade Mastermaker, as you have to be a Humanoid to get in, but, if I were the DM, I probably would let it slide, as it fits the character particularly well, especially with the other grafts. Along those lines, the battlefist isn't technically a Construct graft, so it wouldn't count towards the benefits of having multiple Construct grafts but, again, it's something I'd let slide.
On the matter of construct minions, much as I like them, other DMs may be wary of such, especially the advanced Ironwyrm. As much fun as having a tank to ride around in and to trick it out while you're at it with infusions, it probably couldn't make it into more conservative campaigns.
Now for the more serious dings, the first being LA buyoff, which won't always fly, depending on the game.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5 You use Vigilante for spellcasting primarily, plus Mettle, though only your Will save really benefits from that. Smite the Guilty is mentioned, though you don't really make use of it. It's an alright utilization, though I think Bard or more Artificer would have benefited you better.

Final Score: 16.5/4.125

Again, I thank all the chefs for their contributions and look forward to the next Iron Chef. Here's hoping for something like Seeker of the Song.

[bondpirate]

Man, I don't know how you guys managed to put out finished builds. Mine, no matter how flavorful, always were better off without Vigilante or couldn't get the proper base class arrangements to fit.

What I had as ideas were:
1) Aquatic Elf Thug Fighter 2/Urban Ranger 8(With pretty much every ACF)/Vigilante 10 - Would use superior swimming and jumping to get drop on slaver pirates and spells to gather info in their floating city; held up by the gassing corpses in the baubles under the town. Made good use of net and trident (one handed reach weapon, aka awesome), both are racial weapons granted. Ended up too spread out and unfocused; not too mention really weak at the early and late career. Though if vigilante is dropped, I'm going to seriously consider playing an aquatic elf on land. After a couple feats it's a non issue for suffocation, that and the trident.

2) Half-Elf Paladin of Freedom 4/ Half-Elf Paragon 3/ Human Paragon 3/ Vigilante 10 - Didn't have any real focus for this build. Used Half-Elf Paragon to get Human Paragon so skills weren't as huge an issue (why does Vigilante seriously need FIVE skill requirements, ugh. Wanted UMD for Adaptive Learning with high Charisma and double wand wielder for spells and combat. Also, a great-sword with a wand chamber. I thought it could work. Way too weak till lvl 8ish without party support. Though make yourself immune to fire and then just blow yourself up with wands of fireball (If only Vigilante allowed evil [Paladin of Tyranny], if only).

3) Human Fighter X/Rogue X/Master Thrower 5/Devoted Defender 3/Vigilante Z - Wanted a Minority Report style setting where a psychic would report a crime about to happen, then the vigilante would arrive to protect the victim and use throwing daggers so she didn't have to leave the victim. There's a little pre-req synergy with dd and vigilante, but for some reason the character doesn't feel right. The spells help, but I keep feeling the build is better off with anything else.

Even though I didn't get anything in, this was a lot of fun and look forward to the next [BEAT] "Iron Chef!"

[Grynning]

Hello all. Just got back from Cali, and I'll read builds for as long as I can stay awake tonight. Judging should be up tomorrow or the day after.

[T.G. Oskar]

Count me in the group of people who tried to make a build out of Vigilante and pretty much lost the interest. You could do a good build out of it (Vigilante spellcasting behaves a lot like Suel Arcanamach), but the class features were kinda sucky. Also, it was rather hard to enter.

However, I'm afraid I can't speak which build I would have entered because I figure that in the future, one of those classes may come up and I'm gonna lose whatever edge I may get if I manage to participate in a future. In any case, the general gist of it would have been:

Spoiler

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Rogue 2/Spellthief 4/Racial Class 3/Martial Class 4/Vigilante 9

The idea was to use a pretty useful trick from the combination of both classes, focus on the spells, and perhaps add Inspired Smite, Awesome Smite and Sapphire Smite to take advantage of Smite the Guilty (Sapphire Smite is basically an Extra Smite + extra damage on smite, Awesome Smite would have allowed ignoring DR which could have been combined with the Sneak Attack from Rogue and Spellthief, and Inspired Smite for better damage).

However, that trick may be useful in a future, so I can't spoil it. I'll give some kudos to whomever figures out what I was gonna do, if you think you got it.

Problem is that I wouldn't have used the rest of the Vigilante class, except for the spells and Smite the Guilty. And the trick mostly relied on the classes that I can't mention, so it would have been a big loss on Power and UoSI. And I figured I could have used more levels from the secret classes, so it was really pointless to shoehorn Vigilante for it (loss of Elegance). Though, it would have racked crazy originality points (and if it weren't because of the Vigilante thing, I would have added yet another class).

[true_shinken]

Time for my judging. I spent a lot of time trying to come up with my build and Vigilante is one of my favourite classes of all time. I played a Vigilante once (a vanilla Urban Ranger/Vigilante) - he was my first gish. Some of you might know that I have a thing for gishes.
Yes, Vigilante has issues. The skill list is weird, the abilities are kinda 'uh?' and a few defensive abilities wouldn't hurt. But the class is not bad per se. The fluff is cool (specially if you like comics) and getting those spells faster than a Bard when you has 5 levels to get loaded on class features seem tasty. I look at it like Suel Arcanamach, except easier to qualify.
OK, less ranting, more judging, Mr. Shinken.

Dympha, Patron Saint of Runaways

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Originality: 5
Paladin, Monk, dragonmarks, the subdual damage focus, everything surprised me. Well done.
Power: 3.5
I think the damage is a bit on the weaker side and your mobility is hurting (lack of flight/teleport), but everything else is pretty solid.
Elegance: 2
Your dragonmark is not suitable for your race and Vow of Nonviolence might be a real bitch to your fellow party members.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4
Knowledge Devotion synergizes well with Streetwise, evasion and divine grace really complements mettle. I like your focus on divination spells.

Total: 14.5

Viyana

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Originality: 3.5
After a few years at 339, pixies don't surprise me anymore. Master Inquisitive is a tasy spice, though.
Power: 3
LA is a problem, since you start slow. Her damage is very weak, so fighting with the party she slows the other down... and if she goes solo every fight will take forever. SHe fills the role you intended very well, though.
Elegance: 1.5
I had to discount from the LA, which makes her hard to play at low levels. Also, you said a Chaotic Neutral character 'brutally tortures' people and I disagree completely with that. That's the sort of thing that raises arguments in-game and slows play, hence a deduction here. And... dust of sneezing and choking? Seriously? The OP of every IC always mentions to steer away from known cheese for a reason, guys.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
You use the spells, the SLAs and the skeleton. That's it. You rounded the skills pretty well, so I'll call it average.

Total: 11

Oduk

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Originality: 4
Divine Bard and Fochlucan Lyrist? It caught me flat-footed.
Power: 3
You have a little bit extra oomph because of added versatility from more Bard spells known. Probably you could have pulled a few very nice tricks with this... but you didn't mention any. I can't figure out your feat selection - why do you need so many bardic music uses?
Elegance: 4
Except for how late you get Weapon Finesse (and how I can't understand why you're going unarmed), everything fits together rather nicely.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 1
Very few levels, you just wanted the spell list.

Total: 12

Rhys

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Originality: 4
Favored Enemy Paladin is hardly ever seen and Shadowstriker was a very good finishing touch. Excellent.
Power: 3.5
You lack distinguishing tricks, but you are very good in your chosen area of expertise. You do have high UMD and that's a big thing, so I'm giving you a little boost here.
Elegance: 5
Everything fits, everything flows nicely, really good.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
While you take all levels, I really don't see much that Vigilante is doing here that more Paladin wouldn't do as well - well, it has the skill points, but then again you could use Rogue and grab a tasty tasty multiclass feat. Vigilante fits the character's concept and the character works fine with Vigilante, it's just that it does not need it.

Total: 15.5

The Judge

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Originality: 3.5
I find your lack of Judge Dredd references disturbing (maybe I'm just getting old). Maug surprised me, but nothing else stood out.
Power: 5
As expected of something with such huge Strenght, the Judge is a melee powerhouse. He gets utility spells and skills from Vigilante and that's all he needs. Very nice.
Spell resistance, mettle and evasion makes him a tough nut to crack. Awesome.
Elegance: 2
LA tends to hurt here and that's exactly what happened.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4
You use smite and a good selection of spells. I like it.

Total: 14.5

Nightwatch

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Originality: 2.5
Batman, Batman, Batman... Yeah, intended entry is not very original. Sublime Chord is so obvious that I believe everyone avoided it on purpose.
Power: 5
No one else is running around with Shapeshift, Time Stop and Force Cage. And you are able to realiably pull your own weight before that. Love it.
Elegance: 5
I love it. It flows amazingly well. Sublime Chord allows you to keep up and I really like how you described levels with comic book references.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5
You got out of Vigilante after getting most of the abilities, basically everything that mattered. Vigilante is integral to your build before Sublime Chord but then it kind of fades.

Total: 16

Allistair the Night Angel

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Originality: 4
Marshall is nice extra touch and familiar focus was unexpected.
Power: 4
I like it. It's solid, it's party friendly, it's the Night Angel!
Elegance: 3
I would have given more, but I can't figure out what Cleric does in your build.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5
You used everything and explained why. I like it.

Total: 15.5

Sally

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Originality: 5
Domovoi master of constructs? I'm stunned.
Power: 5
Well, Artificer.
Elegance: 1
You used buy-off and a lot of crafting. How are you at level 20 like everyone else? You also don't qualify for Renegade Mastermaker. Breaking action economy like you do is also not party friendly at all.
Use of Secret Ingredient: 2.5
Your build is very good, but it would be a lot better with less Vigilante.

Total: 13.5

Done judging!

[Dark_Nohn]

Just occurred to me. Vigilante lacks Spot and Listen... How are you supposed to eavesdrop on the bad guys without those skills?

I think that Full BAB would be too good with the current class qualifications. Alertness is easily gained. The prerequisite skills can be a pain, but are not that challenging. Now if the requirements were even more strict, it would not be an issue (for me).

According to the PHB, once a class skill, always a class skill

Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s
classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank.
(The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s
classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum
for a class skill.

Well, kinda, it still costs 2 skill points as a cross class, but you don't have the limitations of ([3+character level]/2.)

[Thurbane]

While that's true, it costs a LOT of skill points that could be spent elsewhere.

Able Learner (for a human) is usually the best way to get around this.

[T.G. Oskar]

While that's true, it costs a LOT of skill points that could be spent elsewhere.

Able Learner (for a human) is usually the best way to get around this.

Guerrilla Scout (from Heroes of Battle) is also a good way to get Listen and Spot to cost 1 skill point. It also gives a +1 bonus to Initiative, so it's great for a kind of character like this. Able Learner is better for humans that can spend their 1st level feat on something and that have LOADS of skill points; Guerrilla Scout counts for everyone, can be taken at any level, and grants a secondary skill as well.

Just saying. It still has the cross-class rank limitations, but if you get it as class skills for one class, it means it's always a class skill for you.

[Amphetryon]

Guerrilla Scout (from Heroes of Battle) is also a good way to get Listen and Spot to cost 1 skill point. It also gives a +1 bonus to Initiative, so it's great for a kind of character like this. Able Learner is better for humans that can spend their 1st level feat on something and that have LOADS of skill points; Guerrilla Scout counts for everyone, can be taken at any level, and grants a secondary skill as well.

Just saying. It still has the cross-class rank limitations, but if you get it as class skills for one class, it means it's always a class skill for you.

Just a quick counterpoint: Heroes of Battle does not appear on Grynning's 'non-obscure' sources listing unless I failed a Spot check. That means it could have cost a bit in Elegance with at least one judge. Having personally seen how much one judge's scores can influence an entry's placement in the standings, I can attest to the thought that using a book one judge deems obscure might have seemed risky.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I can tell I've been judging when my living room is littered in books when I get up in the morning. Usually a good sign, too.

Heh, that's why I invest in (cheap) PDF's

20 books open at once? Nooo problemo.

I only have books I've won or favorite books in actual book form because they are fun to read.

[Cieyrin]

Heh, that's why I invest in (cheap) PDF's

20 books open at once? Nooo problemo.

I only have books I've won or favorite books in actual book form because they are fun to read.

See, then i have to switch windows, since I prefer to have my windows full-screened, especially for PDFs. Having the actual books is more natural to me, so i can look at multiple books at once. Plus, I'm a bibliophile by nature and I have an easier time curling up with a physical book than my laptop. Easier on the eyes, too. Only issue I have is I'm constantly running out of bookshelves...

[T.G. Oskar]

Just a quick counterpoint: Heroes of Battle does not appear on Grynning's 'non-obscure' sources listing unless I failed a Spot check. That means it could have cost a bit in Elegance with at least one judge. Having personally seen how much one judge's scores can influence an entry's placement in the standings, I can attest to the thought that using a book one judge deems obscure might have seemed risky.

Good counterpoint, but the idea was to provide a counterpoint to the mention of Able Learner. Usually, Able Learner is provided as an example of a way to get class skills at reduced cost, but it has many limitations (like being Human, Doppleganger, or Changeling; others like Silverbrow Human, Azurin, and human subraces might be questionable). I just provided a much more accessible feat, which can be used by anybody and their mother, and which provides a secondary benefit (+1 to Initiative, which is basically 1/4th of Improved Initiative and also stacks with it). Not to mention that it can be acquired later in game. The other way to get that would be Skill Knowledge or Apprentice, and both are almost secure Elegance hits (SK is basically relying on converting a feat meant for another skill system; Apprentice is on a potentially equally obscure book, not to mention equally as questionable as it implies your character having a master, and something that has to be approved by a DM).

Also, relying on Elegance hits may end up being equally terrible for your scores, since it implies hits on Originality (people are tired of seeing certain stuff, and seeing "yet another human with Able Learner" and one that's not used nets hits on Elegance and Originality). Sometimes, it's not recommendable to see the judging criteria of the judges, since you'll unnecessarily cripple yourself to certain books aside from those banned by the competition rules themselves.

Finally, if Heroes of Battle is an obscure book, then Combat Medic and War Weaver should be equally obscure, and potentially risking the same hit to Elegance. A hit to Elegance shouldn't distract from cooking; a compensation may be underway, one that can potentially be more effective than what you just lost, and probably the hit on Elegance won't be measured in the same way by other judges.

If the build depends on Spot and Listen, but doesn't make much use of the other skills which may be usually classified as class skills, then Able Learner is a bit redundant and limiting; Guerrilla Scout is a bit more rare (and thus obscure), but perhaps more flavorful, more effective, grants a secondary bonus that's never bad (a +1 to Initiative checks can't be ever bad, since it's a flat 5% chance you can go first), and perhaps original enough to nudge Originality a bit.

Besides: it's a way to think outside the box. And learn a bit more. Shouldn't that be one of the purposes of the competition, other than "ooo, I can never think of something like that!" (correction: yes, you can think of that, but you're probably too scared to try it, so shake off your fear condition and Iron Will your way to the Iron Chef competition, darn it!)

[Dark_Nohn]

I wonder if any of the Iron Chefs will start having things like templates or base creatures as their secret ingredient.

[true_shinken]

I wonder if any of the Iron Chefs will start having things like templates or base creatures as their secret ingredient.

No, IC is about prestige classes.

Judging done! \o/ Loved all builds, great competition.
Feel free to criticize.

Also, I totally agree on Seeker of the Song for the next secret ingredient.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Is Ozymandas9 going to run the next IC? I have a suggestion or two for the next secret ingredient

[Grynning]

Ok, putting these up before I over-think them. I didn't really read either of the previous judges posts, to try and prevent any bias, so I have no idea how these builds are stacking up already. All of these were fun to read, and I thank each of the contestants for giving us such a great competition!

Dymphna:

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Originality: 4

Monk/Paladin was an odd entry, and the splash of Heir of Siberys was nice. The story wasn't anything terribly new but was pretty well written. Very nice use of the exalted vows as well, I really didn't see that coming. A very cool use of the class, reminds me a lot of the 4th ed. Avenger in many ways.

Power: 3

The character is fairly versatile at high levels, but for the first half of their life they suffer a bit, with a monk/paladin base, though healing and spells come in to help out at the mid levels (6-12, which is where I consider the sweet spot for 3.5). Vow of Poverty is used well here, but it's still worse than what you'd get with WBL. The character will definitely have mobility problems, the biggest flaw in VoP; this character has very limited access to flight/teleportation, which is a real problem in Sharn. The character is good at dealing non-lethal damage, but as you point out yourself, that won't always get the job done. I would have used HoS earlier if possible.

Also, please give a spells known list, it does affect power rating

Elegance: 3.5

The most controversial thing about this build is the heavy reliance on BoED material, but it's put together well and I wouldn't see most DM's having a problem with it. As I mentioned in the Power critique, Heir of Siberys showing up at the very end seems a little odd. It would be houseruled to allow Mark of Shadow on your race; one of the human marks would have worked despite how cool Greater Prying Eyes are. I think it would have looked better for both fluff and mechanics if it had shown up a little earlier and alternated with the Vigilante levels. Overall, I quite like this character and would be happy to see it at my table, it just needs a little more work.

Use of Vigilante: 4

This is a solid use of the PrC and definitely makes it more palatable. Vigilante is here supporting a somewhat weak entry and is what brings the build up to a Tier 4 level of play with the spells and skill support, so it is very necessary and feels natural in the build.

SCORE:
Overall - 14.5
Average - 3.625


Viyana:

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Originality: 4

Pixies crop up a lot for their uber-stealthiness and SLA's, but I really wasn't expecting it here. Ranger was something I was sure I'd see a lot of, but a little Master Inquisitive was nice to see in the mix. Cool to see some use of the "rival organization" ACF's as well, no one else did that. The story was great, and reminded me a lot of superhero comics and of a pixie character I used to play.

Power: 2

Unfortunately I have to mark down here. Your character is focused on TWF melee with NO precision based damage, which means that actually attacking with this character would be kinda pathetic, even with the occasional smite. Just a couple dice of sneak attack would have helped out here. You also say the character would use "the minimum amount of magic," but spells, SLA's and item selection are the only things that keep this character up power-wise. It fails at its supposed combat role (invisible melee fighter).

Elegance: 4

The build itself is nice, each class level leads into the next in an organic progression. Pixie might raise a few eyebrows but in this case it works out well. It would need some adaptation on the rival organizations for a lot of tables, but I don't see that as a major issue. Good story helped here as well.

Use of Vigilante: 3.5

The class works nicely into the build, and only taking 9 levels is fine. The character does definitely work as a stealthy crime-solver; however, due to the low melee power of the build, and the focus on TWF, I can't give top marks.

SCORE:
Overall - 13.5
Average - 3.375


Oduk:

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Originality: 4

Fochlucan Lyrist, progressing Vigilante and Divine Bard casting. Really didn't think anyone would go there.

Story could have used a little work. I had a hard time following it, and it really didn't seem to be that thought out other than as a justification for the class levels.

Power: 2.5

Fochlucan Lyrist, progressing Vigilante and Divine Bard casting. Really, really didn't think anyone would go there.

Good selection of spells, would definitely be an asset to a tier 4 party as a buffer/debuffer. Fochlucan Lyrist is a really bad PrC though, it has no real good features, and using it to progress Vigilante casting hurts you. The last three levels of it are basically just more levels of Divine Bard.

Also, there were some odd feat choices, and I counted off here for not really explaining the character's combat role or any tricks you would use when playing it.

Elegance: 3

Fochlucan Lyrist, progressing Vigilante and Divine Bard casting. Really, really, really didn't think anyone would go there.

I'm of the opinion that it's impossible to make a good Fochlucan Lyrist build. I'm sure there is, something wacky involving Sublime Chord, but man...I just don't like it in here, especially with the dead casting levels at the end. The Rogue and Vigilante levels are very obvious "I'm qualifying for a PrC!" levels in this progression, and as I mentioned under originality, the story didn't really help.

Despite all that, there's nothing tricky or questionable about the build, it's all very legal and allowable, so no real penalty here. I'd let you play this character at my table, you'd just get a long hard facepalm first.

Use of Vigilante: 1.5

Fochlucan Lyrist, progressing Vigilante and Divine Bard casting. Really, really, really, really didn't think anyone would go there.

I'm sorry, you can't have expected to score well here. I know the class isn't great, but three levels, then using another PrC to advance its very limited casting just doesn't cut it.

SCORE:
Overall - 11
Average - 2.75


Rhys:

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Originality: 4

Another Paladin build, but with Human Paragon, Shadowstriker and an Undead hunting variant. Very interesting, I like this one a lot. The story intro was short but was a very nice hook that made me want to pay close attention to the rest of the entry.

Power: 3

Decent Smite-monkey, good use of spellcasting and class features all around, Battle Blessing and Devotion to beef up the Pally side. Nothing really jumped out at me to bump this past tier 4 though. Also takes a few levels to really get going.


Elegance: 4

I can't see anything wrong with this build mechanically, and the levels are put together fairly nicely. There are basically two reasons this isn't a five - a lot of UMD reliance, which I always find a little cheesy, and Shadowstriker coming in at the very end. As mentioned in my judging for the first entry, I'd have been ok with you delaying the last couple levels of Vigilante to work that PrC in earlier so it would be more relevant throughout the character's life.

Oh, one other thing - Sickening Grasp requires you to have a Necromancy spell ready to cast, and I didn't recognize any on your list. However, I do not have a spell compendium available to check all the schools, so I'll assume at least one of them is from that school unless someone corrects me.

Use of Vigilante: 4

This definitely feels like a Vigilante build, and combines the spellcasting and features with enough other goodies that it all comes out looking pretty good.

SCORE:
Overall - 15
Average - 3.75


The Judge:

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Originality: 5

Ok...it's a robot thingy. With Sneak Attack, Shadowbane Inquisitor, and Pious Templar...what the hell...

You're a daring chef. I will give you that.

Power: 4

This character performs at the tier 3 level, having a fair amount of power and versatility. He can fight very well, cast, and still has enough skill investment to help out.


Elegance: 2

Unfortunately, the high score in the other categories directly lead to a lower one here. Tons of dips, not all of which are easily explained by the backstory, LA buyoff (which lead to a bit of a confusing level chart), and a race from Fiend Folio that gets free grafts, which is something I think a lot of DM's would say "no" to. Nothing illegal about it, and it does come together in a coherent whole, but that chart still hurts the eyes.

Use of Vigilante: 2.5

With so many classes in the mix here, Vigilante kinda gets lost. It still matters to the build a bit, but really, this character doesn't feel much like the streetwise dark detective the PrC is meant to represent. The class could be completely cut without any change to the character's story or flavor.

SCORE:
Overall - 13.5
Average - 3.375


Nightwatch:

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Originality: 3

I was wondering if we'd see Sublime Chord and/or Unseen Seer pop up somewhere, but you were the only one who went for them both. Able Learner and Urban Ranger were a very predictable entry for Vigilante, not that there's anything wrong with that, just didn't surprise me.

Power: 5

I guess I threw down the gauntlet when I said I wasn't expecting a character that performed at tier 2 power. 9th level casting puts this guy miles ahead of the other builds in the mix, and he's still got enough sneakiness and skill to take the skillmonkey party slot. I loved your description of the the use of the class features and tactics as well.

Elegance: 4

Pretty rock solid build-wise. I counted off a little due to the large number of sources and the three PrC's, which I think would be the only things that could stop this from being allowed at just about any table. This character definitely had the "feel" of a Vigilante even if it used a lot of other classes.

Use of Vigilante: 2.5

With only 5 levels, it's hard to give a really high score here, but I will say you did quite well with the Vigilante levels you did have. I think you got the spirit of the class in there even if you didn't use that many of the actual levels.

SCORE:
Overall - 14.5
Average - 3.625


Allistair:

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Originality: 3

Nothing terribly special here except Marshall, but it's often used as a dip for motivate auras, which is exactly what you're doing with it here. I like the twist of the character as a leader type rather than a loner though.

Power: 3.5

Good casting and buffing, the party would like you a lot. Nice use of Shadowblade to get a little extra damage onto your TWF'ing. Also uses a companion, which is always good.

Elegance: 2.5

Some problems here. Urban Companions and Familiars aren't quite the same, and it would take a bit of houseruling to get it to work the way you're wanting it to. I'm not that concerned about the armored casting thing or the Draconic Aura, neither are really overpowered, but some DM's might not let that slide. Also the build is a little bit messy with the cleric levels in there, which are obviously just for devotions, which weren't really needed. Could've just finished Vigilante. A decently written story that worked in the religious conversion saved your score from being lower here.

Use of Vigilante: 3

Pretty good overall; this is pretty darn close to what I would consider to be "average" use of the PrC. Not much more to say.

SCORE:
Overall - 12
Average - 3


Sally:

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Originality: 5

Oh how I love giving 5's here. Artificer had never crossed my mind as a possibility for this one, and a fiery fey is even more of a twist. Also, one of the best backstories of the bunch, I got a nice picture of this smoky little brawler in my head.

Power: 4

Infusions and SLA's, plus a dash of melee ability put this guy up into tier 3 range for sure. His companions are tough and he's not too shabby in melee himself with clever use of his SLA's and buffs. Can help out a party or function ok solo.

Elegance: 2.5

This one has some issues. First, it assumes LA buyoff, and uses a trait without mentioning it (like it was trying to be snuck in). Also, the homonculi are more WBL-mancy than character-building, and there's the shenanigans to make the dragon-golem, which you do explain, but kind of made me groan a little.

Use of Vigilante: 2.5

I really wanted to make this higher, but the more I thought about it the less it made sense for this guy to have Vigilante levels, even though the character functions just fine with them in there. The only things you mention in your tactics are basically some follow ups to work already being done by your constructs. The only thing in the backstory that made me think of the class was the stuff about stealth, but it still doesn't really justify it well.

SCORE:
Overall - 14
Average - 3.75

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Current Scores

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1st Rhys - 15/15.5/15 = 45.5
2nd Dymphna- 14/14.5/14.5 = 43
2nd Sally - 15.5/13.5/14 = 43
3rd Nightwatch - 12/16/14.5 = 42.5
4th The Judge - 13/14.5/13.5 = 41
5th Allistair - 13/15.5/12 = 40.5
6th Viyana - 11/11/13.5 = 35.5
7th Oduk - 10/12/11 = 33

[Ozymandias9]

Some rules based disputes:

@Cieyrn

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Regarding "The Judge" and "Sally": These deal primarily with graft rules. On this topic my op-fu is admittedly weak. If any other judges have insight, please chime in. If other contestants have insight, PM it to me and I will forward it.

RE: The Judge

Maugs don't gain a free 2k of grafts, only the ones without class levels, which you aren't

Maugs do get 2k worth of free grafts.

the text states "Maugs with class levels may purchase *additional* grafts..."

This one would seem self-explanatory.

RE: Sally

{paraphrased from two different disputing parties:} "Sally" chef did not include the cumulative benefits for multiple grafts in hir summary of the character.

This represents an error in presentation (which itself might alter score), but also might alter how Cieyrn views his objection.

RE: Sally

{again, paraphrased, though this time for brevity}The battlefist is a listed option with the mighty arm graft.

On this note, I believe that this makes the battlefist an optional augment for the graft, not a graft itself. But as stated, my knowledge of this particular rule area is weak.

@True Shinken

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RE: Sally (regarding how she's the same level as everyone else)

{again, paraphrased}The Character uses LA-Buyoff, which for an LA of 2 will result in reaching level 20 at about the same timeframe as non-LA characters

As a note: this is one of the more contentious issues regarding LA buyoff.

If the DM does use per-encounter XP awards (which would seem the default assumption, though not the only option), then the period of time the character would spend at a lower ECL than the rest of the party will off set the XP used for the buyoff to an extent such that the character in question will reach the XP needed for level 20 before the rest of the party would reach 21.

If memory serves, the relevant math presumes that the party has at least 4 characters and that they are otherwise of equal ECL.

You need not accept these presumptions as valid, but they would appear to be the answer to your posed question, at least relative to the buy-off issue.

I've not examined XP spent relative to the artificer reserve pool nor to differential acquisition rates. It is worth noting that artificers can salvage XP from items for reuse in crafting.

As a note, other non-rules related disputes have been accepted as valid, and will be forwarded after the rest of the judging is in. I believe these are the only rules based disputes that are currently outstanding, but feel free to PM me if I missed one.

[WinWin]

I think the judges have done well. A few nits to pick, but reading all of those entries and making a fair assessment is going to always be challenging.

I may do some preliminary scoring if I get some free time over the weekend. If the need arises, I'll be ready to submit some scores.

[Kesnit]

I've started judging, though I am far from done. I should have it all done by tomorrow.

[JRKlein]

Hmm, I just had an idea. I wonder if a Druid/Vigilante mix would work well.

[Grynning]

Hmm, I just had an idea. I wonder if a Druid/Vigilante mix would work well.

Probably not so much with the skill requirements. Wild Shape Variant Ranger with Natural spell probably would work though.

[Cieyrin]

Some rules based disputes:

@Cieyrn

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Regarding "The Judge" and "Sally": These deal primarily with graft rules. On this topic my op-fu is admittedly weak. If any other judges have insight, please chime in. If other contestants have insight, PM it to me and I will forward it.

RE: The Judge

This one would seem self-explanatory.

RE: Sally

This represents an error in presentation (which itself might alter score), but also might alter how Cieyrn views his objection.

RE: Sally

On this note, I believe that this makes the battlefist an optional augment for the graft, not a graft itself. But as stated, my knowledge of this particular rule area is weak.

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Well first, it's Cieyrin.

As for actual notes on the disputes, I'll double-check the Maug text and make a score adjustment as is necessitated.

In Sally's case, I didn't take any points off as related to the Battlefist and Renegade Mastermaker, as I considered the slight rules difference a minor technicality. I took off points for the 3 rings, the Construct emphasis and the LA Buyoff.