Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Renegade Paladin]

Heh. I was at the game store last night assembling my Leman Russ Demolisher (my last model for quite some time) and observing a game between two Space Wolf players and an allied Ork and Tau army. The Ork player was getting angry at not being able to win and vowing to switch to a new army as soon as the current campaign is over.

Might have made him feel better if he'd compared the point totals involved in the various areas of the table; the 300 points of Boyz that he was complaining about getting their butts handed to them were having Logan Grimnar and about 600 points worth of Terminators doing the handing. Need to watch that drop pod assault.

[Winterwind]

Might have made him feel better if he'd compared the point totals involved in the various areas of the table; the 300 points of Boyz that he was complaining about getting their butts handed to them were having Logan Grimnar and about 600 points worth of Terminators doing the handing. Need to watch that drop pod assault.

Someone should have just told him that. Instilling some reason into people sounds like a vastly preferable situation to having them complain nonsensically all the time to me.

[Renegade Paladin]

Someone should have just told him that. Instilling some reason into people sounds like a vastly preferable situation to having them complain nonsensically all the time to me.

He was told. By me, by his opponents, by his partner, by, in fact, everyone who observed the situation. He still wants to switch armies.

[Deth Muncher]

He was told. By me, by his opponents, by his partner, by, in fact, everyone who observed the situation. He still wants to switch armies.

Hm...he reminds me of a friend of mine. Does this guy play WoW, by chance? Because said friend of mine often reacts to things as he has been taught by WoW - namely, anything that is remotely good he refers to as (and I'm PC'ing/board filter fixing this next bit): Freaking Homosexual-Posterior Bullfeces. (Go ahead and de-nicen that up, and you'll quickly understand why this kind of player annoys me.)

EDIT: Still assuming he's like my friend, reason is something that is, and forever will be lost on him.

[Winterwind]

He was told. By me, by his opponents, by his partner, by, in fact, everyone who observed the situation. He still wants to switch armies.

Oh well. Either he's not accessible to reason, or this has actually deeper reasons and Orks simply don't suit his playstyle. Pity for his poor innocent models, though.

[Cheesegear]

He was told. By me, by his opponents, by his partner, by, in fact, everyone who observed the situation. He still wants to switch armies.

To be fair to him though, Orks are now being overcome by Tyranids and Dark Eldar at doing what Orks are supposed to be good at.
For the Marine player there's also Blood Angels and Chaos Marines.

Of course, it was a 2v2 battle, right? Where his opponents were both Space Wolves and his partner was Tau? The points difference might have been an issue too.

[Winterwind]

For the Marine player there's also Blood Angels and Chaos Marines.

I've recently finally started reading that Space Wolves Codex I've had lying around here for a while... and I was taken aback a bit when I realized Gray Hunters are better at everything than Chaos Space Marines, for the same points-per-model cost. Same equipment, same stat-line (minus one Ld), but get They Shall Know No Fear, Acute Senses and Counterattack. And more equipment options that cost less points. And can have two models with powerweapons in the squad without using HQ choices.

Of course, as CSM player one usually gets cult troops anyway, so it doesn't matter all that much, but that was a bit depressing. Kinda made me wish for a new codex.

[DaedalusMkV]

Quick question: A friend and I are planning on doing a Planetstrike game sometime soon. Does anyone have any experience with this sub-ruleset? Any tips? Any random things, like what a nice point size is for it, etc? I'd appreciate it.

Planetstrike is more fun with more stuff on the board. It will be dying very, very quickly, so the more there is the more there is to actually play with by the third or fourth turn. I'd say 2000 points is a minimum game size to shoot for, with 2500 being the "sweet spot". You can play at less, but frankly that doesn't work anywhere near as well.

Terrain placement is critical. A random, unthemed smattering of terrain might work for normal 40k, but in PS you want to have a defensive bastion or two in addition to the usual collection of ruins and forests. The cooler and more fortress-like the board looks at the start of the game, the cooler (and more even) the game as a whole will be. Don't go too overboard (15 Orbital Bombardments hurts way too much), but I'd say you want one defensive terrain piece per 500 points.

As to building actual armies, unless you know who's going to be the defender you should realize that long-ranged units are a lot less valuable than in normal 40k unless the attacker is Guard or Tau. Everything Deep Strikes, so the battles are going to be short-ranged and brutal. Meltas and Flamers are an absolute necessity for both defenders and attackers, and assault troops with good saves can be ungodly (Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines are even better than in normal 40k!) You'll still want some support units, but the Leman Russ Demolisher, for example, heavily outperforms its longer-ranged cousins.

You should also have some craters on hand. Unlike normal 40k (usually) buildings will explode, and frequently. You'll be wanting proper terrain to replace them with.


(The best PS game I ever played was 2000 points, CSM against IG. I was attacking with my CSM, the IG player was defending. 2 Bastions, 2 Aegis Defense Lines and a Landing Pad, all interlocked into a cool three-part connected base, roads and all, made up his fortress, as well as a firebase in a ruined building nearby. Taking that fortress is one of the highlights of my 40k career, no doubt about it.)

[Incomp]

I've recently finally started reading that Space Wolves Codex I've had lying around here for a while... and I was taken aback a bit when I realized Gray Hunters are better at everything than Chaos Space Marines, for the same points-per-model cost. Same equipment, same stat-line (minus one Ld), but get They Shall Know No Fear, Acute Senses and Counterattack. And more equipment options that cost less points. And can have two models with powerweapons in the squad without using HQ choices.

Of course, as CSM player one usually gets cult troops anyway, so it doesn't matter all that much, but that was a bit depressing. Kinda made me wish for a new codex.

I miss the old codex. 180 points for a strength six monstrous creature that ignored invulnerable saves. Eat that, hammernators. But yeah, regular CSMs are crap compared to the cult troops. I just wish I had realized that when I was building my CSM army.

[Closet_Skeleton]

My Chaos Space Marines are Black Legion, so I pretty much have to use regular troops. But at least I don't have it as bad as the other undivided legions.

[Lycan 01]

Regarding the AoBR set, I understand that it's a better deal if you're planning on using the Orks in it. I am, and also like the blast templates and other things that come with it. I would also use the marines to work on my painting with and possibly incorporate the less suboptimal ones into a Marine army sometime.

The problem is, I already picked up the rulebook fairly cheaply. With that in mind, is there a better route to go for a wouldbe Ork player to start off with?

Oh dude if you are an Ork player than Black Reach is your best friend. Cheesegear already summed it up pretty good, but I can personally attest that it is a rockin' investment.

Lemme break it down for you. If you can find somebody to split it with or somehow sell off the Marines to make up for half the cost, you're get 20 Boyz, 5 Nobs, 3 Koptas, and a Warboss, an army worth about 480 points without upgrades, for 35 dollars or so.

Now, at basic market value, 20 Boyz would be 40 bucks. The Nobs another 20, the Warboss about 15, and the Koptas... well, I forget how much their worth, but since you can't get them any other way and they're a friggin' awesome unit, they're worth quite a bit. So yeah, for 30 bucks you're getting over 75 dollars worth of Orks. Sure, you don't get all the extra weapons and gear the normal kits come with, but your don't need those just yet.

Now you've got a nice little Ork army. And hopefully the Codex. Trust me - you want the Codex. Codex-less Orks are a shadow of their potential power. Furious Charge, Waaaaagghh!!, and things like Heavy Armor for you Boyz? Mmmmm, Dead Stompy.

(cough cough I neglected to get the Codex for awhile, despite everyone's advice... I regret that decision... cough cough)

After you've gotten an understanding of your new army, you'll need a bit more Dakka. Get a Boyz kit. Just a basic 20 dollars Boyz kit. Boyz are the basis of a good Ork army, and you can never have too many of them. (Green Tide tactics, baby!) This will give your army some extra oomph, especially if you make them into Shoota Boyz or kitbash them together with your AoBR boyz for some cool-looking models. Also, you'll be able to practice your conversions on these new models. Believe me when I say this - the ability to convert and customize your models is an extremely useful skill for Ork players to have. I've got a scratch-built/Kustom Killa Kan, Painboy, Loota Squad, and a few other fun things. Being able to convert one model into another is not only a useful skill to have, but it saves money. And more money means more Dakka.

Once you know what you're doing, and you feel comfortable with your army choice, I'd say pick up a Battleforce. 20 more Boyz, 2 more Nobs, a Trukk, and three Bikers for 90 (or less!) bucks? Excellent, excellent deal. And if you've learned how to convert and kustomize like a true Mekboy by now... oh yeah. It is a most excellent deal.



Like most of the other guys are saying, though, start small. Don't rush out and buy the Assault on Black Reach kit, the Codex, an Ork Battleforce, and an extra Boyz kit or two all at once. You will quickly find yourself overwhelmed by the sheer number of models, and if you decide you don't like Orks... well, better hope you can find a good buyer.

[Deth Muncher]

Re: Orks -

So lemme tell you my story. I was gifted an old boxed battleforce set, with everything pre-put together (often really badly so I had to fix them): an oldschool Trukk, 5 bikes, whatever the vehicle is that's the Wartrakk without the trakks, and a crapton of boys. I then bought a box of Boyz and I was ready to go. Yay for overwhelming people in small games!

But then my itch to expand caught a hold of me: I inherited two Black Reach boxes (the Ork side), I got Gazgkull Thraka I got a Painboy, I got a Big Mek w/ Shield Generator, I got MOAR BOYZ, I got the old conversion kit for Stormboyz (back before the new models) and had a crapton of fun converting that up, and I got a Big Shoota Boy, a Killa Kan and a New Trukk (not all at once, mind you). Now, I am ready to deal death wholesale - or I would, if I could get into the Orky mindset. You have to THINK like an Ork, but with the tactics of a player, in order to win. You have to remember that if you're gonna shoot EVERYTHING needs to shoot, because you've got a crappy BS. If you're gonna wade into combat throw EVERYTHING in combat - you're good at becoming a green Slice-O-Matic, especially with special characters and/or sheer overwhelming numbers. Even Marneus Calgar will fall if he's got enough Nobz on him and fails enough saves.

Basically - if you can't think like an Ork, don't play 'em.

[Timberwolf]

Fortunately, thinking like an Ork is not particularly hard to do, what with them not being bred for brains...

[Cheesegear]

Fortunately, thinking like an Ork is not particularly hard to do, what with them not being bred for brains...

Well, that's not true at all. Its just that they have a very special kind of brains. Fighting is supposed to be fun. If you're playing a 40K game with Orks, and you're not having fun, you're playing Orks wrong.

[Ninja Chocobo]

AoBR is roughly worth it for the Koptas alone, because you're not going to find plastic Koptas anywhere else. Especially not ones with Rokkits. Like I said, they're a Fast Attack choice worth having.

Deffkoptas aren't very good.
But, without Rokkits they're useless, and AoBR is cheaper than buying three metal ones with Big Shootas.

[Incomp]

My Chaos Space Marines are Black Legion, so I pretty much have to use regular troops. But at least I don't have it as bad as the other undivided legions.

Liez. Even in the codex, there are examples of Black Legion cult troops with funny paint schemes. But even if this weren't so, I wouldn't care too much. If you're concerned about fluff, you can say your CSMs have made an alliance between two warbands. (a not uncommon occurrence) And even if you don't want that, you want to be pure Black Legion, then be creative. Invent a reason why some of your troops have gone berserk or got 4++ saves and crazy bolters. Fluff is less important than a solid army IMHO anyway.

[Lycan 01]

By the way, what's the verdict on Flash Gitz? Are they completely useless, or do they have their strengths? They've got 2 Wounds, 4+ armor, and pretty good weapons. BUT, that points cost looks painful. Are they ever worth it?

By the way, I have some spare Ork torsos and stuff, so I'm thinking about "Cyborking" them with robot legs and stuff to crank out a few extra Boyz. Is that "okay" if they don't officially have Cybork Upgrades, or can they not have that if they don't actually have the upgrade?

[Cheesegear]

[Flash Gitz]'ve got 2 Wounds, 4+ armor, and pretty good weapons. BUT, that points cost looks painful. Are they ever worth it?

Well, they come at the cost of Battlewagons, Killa Kans and Lobbas. So no.

2 Wounds each? Not that good of a save. And no way to improve their cover saves. Welcome so S8+ Pie Plate town. Population; None. Everyone got Instant Death'd and there were no lead fridges to hide in.

Lootas are a better choice since they have better range and usually more shots. And don't take a Heavy Support slot for some reason.

Alternatively, take more Shoota Boyz.

Is that "okay" if they don't officially have Cybork Upgrades, or can they not have that if they don't actually have the upgrade?

Due to Flash Gitz being pretty terrible, it might be worth taking the Painboy and Cybork Bodies for FNP and an Invulnerable save. When you're paying that many points for Orks, you need them to survive.

I've found nobody complains about WYSIWYG when you're opting to be worse than what the model is. So, yeah. You can model them as Cyborks and not take the upgrade.

[Lycan 01]

Alrighty, that's a no to Flash Gits, then. XD

And I meant the Cybork thing for just regular Boyz, but your point remains the same. Hopefully that'll give me an extra four or five Boyz.

[Cheesegear]

So, here's a discussion that came up in my meta-game while I was testing out the current Dark Eldar Codex and the fact that Reaver Jetbikes aren't that good anymore (its not their fault).

Well, Fast Attack, in general, sucks.

Spoiler

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Blood Angels
With the exception of the Baal Predators, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use anything from FA. Even then, a lot of players have figured out that Razorbacks are better. Heavy Flamers for free makes no sense.

Chaos Daemons
Pretty much all units in the FA section are just very, very expensive Hormagaunts. About the only thing worth it are the Flesh Hounds, and not even then.

Chaos Space Marines
...Sorry, I couldn't stop laughing.

Daemonhunters
You get to have a regular Grey Knight squad that isn't scoring. Daemonhunters don't even have +Reserves. Hope you brought your Teleport Homer(s). Just kidding. You don't need Teleport Homers because you aren't using GK Teleport Squads. Dur.

Dark Eldar
As I explained during my review of the Codex...Nah.
Unless you're taking John Wayne. In which case the Hellions are now Troops. Not Fast Attack. So you're still not using Fast Attack.

Eldar
Shining Spears...And that's about it. And only if you're running an Autarch as well. Which means you aren't running double Farseers.

Imperial Guard
Everyone knows how bad Sentinels and Rough Riders are.
But, Guard do get Hellhound Variants and Gunships. Which are pretty amazing.

Necrons
Even further back than the Dark Eldar review - when I was trying to prove that Necrons don't totally suck - I tended to run Scarabs a lot. Destroyers are nice too. However, the Codex doesn't exactly encourage you to take these units until much higher-level games.

Orks
Deffkoptas with Rokkits. That's about it.

Space Marines
The only FA choice I ever see in Space Marine lists are Land Speeders. And usually only in He'Stan lists. Bikes do tend to see a fair amount of play. But, not as Fast Attack choices. Which means it doesn't count. Like Hellions.

Space Wolves
Guess I shot myself in the foot here. The best unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice. Well, its the best unit in the game providing you take lots of them, and the battlefield isn't littered with ruins/buildings.

Tau
Pathfinders are decent.

Tyranids
Shrikes are used in specialised lists where Synapse needs to be fast. Other people just use Warriors in Spores for pretty much the same effect. Because Warriors are Troops.

Witch Hunters
Dominions are good. But not strictly necessary.

So...Yeah. Fast attack kind of sucks. It confuses me somewhat that the best Fast Attack choices in the game come from Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. Rather than say Eldar or Tyranids which are armies that like fast things.

[Turcano]

Well, that's not true at all. Its just that they have a very special kind of brains. Fighting is supposed to be fun. If you're playing a 40K game with Orks, and you're not having fun, you're playing Orks wrong.

It certainly helps that most Ork units, and especially vehicles, are absolutely hilarious.

[Ricky S]

So, here's a discussion that came up in my meta-game while I was testing out the current Dark Eldar Codex and the fact that Reaver Jetbikes aren't that good anymore (its not their fault).

Well, Fast Attack, in general, sucks.

Spoiler

Show

Blood Angels
With the exception of the Baal Predators, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use anything from FA. Even then, a lot of players have figured out that Razorbacks are better. Heavy Flamers for free makes no sense.

Chaos Daemons
Pretty much all units in the FA section are just very, very expensive Hormagaunts. About the only thing worth it are the Flesh Hounds, and not even then.

Chaos Space Marines
...Sorry, I couldn't stop laughing.

Daemonhunters
You get to have a regular Grey Knight squad that isn't scoring. Daemonhunters don't even have +Reserves. Hope you brought your Teleport Homer(s). Just kidding. You don't need Teleport Homers because you aren't using GK Teleport Squads. Dur.

Dark Eldar
As I explained during my review of the Codex...Nah.
Unless you're taking John Wayne. In which case the Hellions are now Troops. Not Fast Attack. So you're still not using Fast Attack.

Eldar
Shining Spears...And that's about it. And only if you're running an Autarch as well. Which means you aren't running double Farseers.

Imperial Guard
Everyone knows how bad Sentinels and Rough Riders are.
But, Guard do get Hellhound Variants and Gunships. Which are pretty amazing.

Necrons
Even further back than the Dark Eldar review - when I was trying to prove that Necrons don't totally suck - I tended to run Scarabs a lot. Destroyers are nice too. However, the Codex doesn't exactly encourage you to take these units until much higher-level games.

Orks
Deffkoptas with Rokkits. That's about it.

Space Marines
The only FA choice I ever see in Space Marine lists are Land Speeders. And usually only in He'Stan lists. Bikes do tend to see a fair amount of play. But, not as Fast Attack choices. Which means it doesn't count. Like Hellions.

Space Wolves
Guess I shot myself in the foot here. The best unit in the game is a Fast Attack choice. Well, its the best unit in the game providing you take lots of them, and the battlefield isn't littered with ruins/buildings.

Tau
Pathfinders are decent.

Tyranids
Shrikes are used in specialised lists where Synapse needs to be fast. Other people just use Warriors in Spores for pretty much the same effect. Because Warriors are Troops.

Witch Hunters
Dominions are good. But not strictly necessary.

So...Yeah. Fast attack kind of sucks. It confuses me somewhat that the best Fast Attack choices in the game come from Space Wolves and Imperial Guard. Rather than say Eldar or Tyranids which are armies that like fast things.

I think that is because both Eldar and Nids are so fast any way. Their entire army is fast so they dont need great fast attack units. Whereas Space wolves and guard are primarily foot slogging so they need the extra speed.

Ooh and I played in an apocalypse game recently.

Spoiler

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It was nids, 2 orks and chaos vs 2 space marines and 2 imperial guard. 4000pts each and both sides had two warhound titans as well. The imperial forces were defending a massive fortress complex.

It was an insane game with almost nothing on the board left after 4 turns. The guard players also had 2 baneblades and the orks had 3 stompas.

The first turn was an absolute bloodbath with templates landing everywhere and killing scores of imperial guard and tactical marines. We responded taking down scores of nids orks and a few chaos marines. There was a battery of basilisks which assisted greatly in thinning down the numbers we had to face. The two baneblades and our warhound titans (along with quite a few lascannon shots from the tactical marines) destroyed a warhound which went apocalyptic and also a stompa and damaged another. The warhound exploding wiped out a massive amount of tyranid swarms.

Turn two and abaddon and about 30 terminators turned up as well as a tunnelling trygon and 30 guants. The infantry on the evil side advanced with great speed and there were some assaults by some of the speek freek orks and more nimble nids. The stompas used their gatling guns and obliterated the right flanks defensive position despite the cover saves from the battlements. Those that had made it into combat overwhelmed the defenders but luckily it had left them in the open.
We replied with pouring a massive amount of rapid fire into the the orks and nids. The massive amount of flamers we had was essential in killing the hordes that were breaching the defences. The 2nd marine player counterattacked the orks and nids with TH/SS termies from his land raider crusader and easily wiped them out along with the help of some guards.

Turn three and the majority of the enemy forces had closed the gap and were throwing themselves into combat. The trygon assaulted an imperial warhound and with some lucky rolls it blew up and killed all of the imperial guard mortar teams nearby. One of the stompas assaulted a baneblade and destroyed it. Abaddon and the remaining terminators created a massive breach and killed 3 tactical squads and a guardsman unit.
My main bike force turned up and destroyed the 2nd chaos warhound with lots of meltas and assaulted the zoanthropes that had been blasting chunks out of the imperial defences. The rest of the imperial forces surged forwards in an attempt to repell the invaders.

Turn four saw a massive battle between the forces for control of the walls and through sheer luck the imperial forces pushed back the assaulting orks, nids and chaos despite their large amount (or should I say obscene amount of) attacks. By the end of the turn everything was either destroyed or badly damaged. There were almost no vehicles left on the table and all the super heavies had been destroyed bar our titan and a baneblade. The remaining infantry were just ragged clumps of survivors.

It was an imperial victory although the cost was very high. By the end of the game all I had left were 4 terminators, my command bike squad and another unit of bikes, and about 24 tactical marines from various different squads.

MVP was awarded to Commisar Von Kemp who single handedly killed the ork warboss and stopped him running rampart through the defences.
MVP for the evil forces was given to the trygon who killed the titan and 4 basilisks.

[Cheesegear]

I think that is because both Eldar and Nids are so fast any way. Their entire army is fast so they dont need great fast attack units. Whereas Space wolves and guard are primarily foot slogging so they need the extra speed.

Well, that's certainly part of it. But, Thunderwolves and Gunships are not just good Fast Attack units. But, they are good. Units. Full stop. Its not about the army needing extra speed. Its mostly that Fast Attack suck.

Space Wolves, as a Space Marine army, work perfectly well with Rhinos. And, are actually the best Marines out of Drop Pods. Speed is never really an issue in a Wolves army.

[Ninja Chocobo]

By the way, what's the verdict on Flash Gitz? Are they completely useless, or do they have their strengths? They've got 2 Wounds, 4+ armor, and pretty good weapons. BUT, that points cost looks painful. Are they ever worth it?

They're way way way too expensive. You're paying for their Nob statline but you don't want them in assault.
Also, their weapons are only good once you buy all three upgrades and the Painboy. At which point you're dealing with 40 points/model. They also really need a transport, which again eats up the points.

Take Lootas instead.

By the way, I have some spare Ork torsos and stuff, so I'm thinking about "Cyborking" them with robot legs and stuff to crank out a few extra Boyz. Is that "okay" if they don't officially have Cybork Upgrades, or can they not have that if they don't actually have the upgrade?

I'm going to, in the future, scratch-build a "Tin-'ead" which could be a Weirdboy or a Big Mek - not sure yet. Pretty sure no-one's going to take issue with it.
Orks and crazy conversions go together very well. It's almost why you'd collect them.

[Winterwind]

My Chaos Space Marines are Black Legion, so I pretty much have to use regular troops. But at least I don't have it as bad as the other undivided legions.

Well, technically, in the codex Black Legion is presented as the one legion that actually uses all four cult troops, capable of manufacturing Berserkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines that are not worse than those of the World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children respectively...

Ooh and I played in an apocalypse game recently.

Oooh, sounds epic.
Makes me wish I had enough army to play Apocalypse games. Well, or rather, that I had the time to put enough army together, which between having two 40k and three Fantasy armies is... not easily done. So much to do, so little time...

[Renegade Paladin]

Oooh, sounds epic.
Makes me wish I had enough army to play Apocalypse games. Well, or rather, that I had the time to put enough army together, which between having two 40k and three Fantasy armies is... not easily done. So much to do, so little time...

What are your two 40k armies? Apocalypse rules let you just field them all as one force, presuming they're not hated mortal enemies who would never do such a thing.

[Winterwind]

What are your two 40k armies? Apocalypse rules let you just field them all as one force, presuming they're not hated mortal enemies who would never do such a thing.

Chaos Space Marines and Eldar. So... yeah. >.>

[Ricky S]

Well, technically, in the codex Black Legion is presented as the one legion that actually uses all four cult troops, capable of manufacturing Berserkers, Plague Marines and Noise Marines that are not worse than those of the World Eaters, Death Guard and Emperor's Children respectively...

Oooh, sounds epic.
Makes me wish I had enough army to play Apocalypse games. Well, or rather, that I had the time to put enough army together, which between having two 40k and three Fantasy armies is... not easily done. So much to do, so little time...

It was epic. We started at 9 in the morning and only finished late in the evening. I was borrowing some of my friends army. I only have 3000pts with my space marines and tau combined. My friend has about 10k of space marines and 10k of chaos and he owns all the titans whats more its all painted!

[crazedloon]

So, here's a discussion that came up in my meta-game while I was testing out the current Dark Eldar Codex and the fact that Reaver Jetbikes aren't that good anymore (its not their fault).

Well, Fast Attack, in general, sucks.

on the other part of the post about FA sucking, I think it is a strategy and use problem. For Fast attack options:

if it is not a vehicle:
-it is less protected than transported equivalents (jump pack troops vs rhino troops)
-in order to make up for this you must hug terrain which ether slows you down (which negates a portion of your speed) or may cause you to die outright (jump packs) so effectively wasting points.

If it is a vehicle:
-they tend to have less armor than equivalents in other slot
-their weapons options are overpriced or subpar in comparison to other options in other slots (is a baal really worth it when you have so many razor backs, or is a speeder worth it when a sternguard squad can bring the same pain)

each of these contribute to make FA sub-par options compared to other options in the same codex. But if you look at the 2 options you say are worth it (and they are) you have thunderwolves which have T5 meaning they are more resilient than normal troops negating the problems most non-vehicles have, and the gunship is the only fast skimmer in the list (providing something "new") and its weapon options are actually very cost effective.

at least this is my opinion as to the "problem" with FA, now to translate this into the reason i think reavers and scourges are worth it

-each unit has the option to take special weapons but they are not overpriced compared to other slots (blasters are the same points as any other unit) and you have options which no other unit you will be taking have (heat lances, and haywire blasters) which are worth it.
-each unit is more resilient than the rest of the armies counterpart units. The reavers have t4, turbo boost for a 3+ and better positioning, and the scourges have a 4+ armor with a 6+ invulnerable

reavers are the more resilient of the lot (and can be effective while not being a target thanks to their blade vanes) which is why I say they are worth it. Scourges are a little less resilient and thus the reason I believe they are more situational but their option for a haywire blaster keeps them competitive.

[Tome]

I actually get some good use out of my Fast Attack slots with my Tau army. Mostly for Pathfinders (Markerlights!) and the odd Piranha. The Piranha is actually surprisingly useful against mech heavy lists thanks to a combination of speed and anti-tank weapons.

Speaking of which, after finally getting to play a few games and a whole lot of painting, I've just about settled on my list. Any opinions would be welcome.

Spoiler

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HQ
Shas'O Commander - 175 Points
Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Cyclic Ion Blaster, Shield Generator
Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, Stimulant Injector
+Shield Drones (x2)

ELITE
XV8 Crisis Team (x2) - 68 Points
Twin-Linked Flamer, Blacksun Filter

XV8 Crisis Team (x2) - 124 Points
Missile Pod, Plasma Rifle, Multi-Tracker

XV25 Stealth Team (x3) - 175
Team Leader, Markerlight, Bonding Knife, Hard-Wired Drone Controller, Hard-Wired Target Lock
+Marker Drones (x2)

TROOPS
Fire Warriors (x7) - 85 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife

Fire Warriors (x7) - 85 Points
Shas'Ui Team Leader, Bonding Knife

Kroot Carnivore Squad (x14) - 98 Points

FAST ATTACK
Pathfinder Team (x5) - 160
+Devilfish, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Targeting Array

Piranha Light Skimmer Team (x1) - 90 Points
Fusion Blaster, Disruption Pod, Flechette Discharger, Seeker Missile, Targeting Array

HEAVY SUPPORT
XV88 Broadside Team (x3) - 260 Points
Team Leader, Bonding Knife, Target Lock
Drone Controller
Target Lock
+Shield Drones (x2)

Hammerhead Gunship - 180 Points
Railgun, Smart Missile System, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, Target Lock

TOTAL: 1500