Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Wraith]

Is there a seasoned converter in the house? I could use some advice, if they're willing to share.

Backstory: I finally bit the bullet and invested in a Daemonhunter army - a number of visits to eBay has netted me an appreciable number of both Grey Knights, Grey Knight Terminators (and even a GK Land Raider), more than enough to legally play 2000 points should I choose to.

Interestingly, one lot had Brother-Captain Stern as part of the deal - not that I particularly wanted him in my army (I don't, he sucks) but he was free with a bunch of stuff I *did* want, so I shouldn't realy complain.

What I'd like to know from you is, what do you think would be the best way to remove his head while at the same time preserving the psychic hood thing around it if possible?
Here he is, if you're unsure as to what I mean. Terrible character, great model, but I simply can't abide a Space Marine Commander with no helmet.

I'm considering investing in a rotary tool with a small-ish head but that seems to be the proverbial anti-mosquito cannon. Is there a better way I could about it, other than using a scalpel and a steady hand to dig it out sliver by sliver?

[hamishspence]

Why not leave the head as-is, and very carefully build, in green stuff, a helmet over it?

[evisiron]

Why not leave the head as-is, and very carefully build, in green stuff, a helmet over it?

I would suggest cutting the bulk out with old snippers (don't ruin new ones on metal) then either green stuff a helmet around it or cut the corresponding shape from the inside of the helmet and sticking it on.

You may have better luck with advice in the warhammer models thread by the way.

[onasuma]

Personally, Id saw, file and then redo the hood thing with greenstuff.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Grey Knight helmets don't look that hard to make out of greenstuff.

Got to play three games today. 1500 points BA vs Ultramarines, 2000 BA vs Daemons and 1000 DE vs Tau.

Against Ultramarines (led by Pedro for some reason) I lost all my assault marines to plasma cannon devastators in a tower fortified by a techmarine. Penultimate turn of the game my devastators shot four frag missiles into them, hit with all of them and killed all but the sergeant. If I'd bothered to do that on turn 1 I might have butchered him but as it was I just pulled it back in the end game with only my devastators, plasma cannon tactical squad, priest and 1 lascannon tactical marine left. One turn my devastators fired 4 krak missiles at his lascannon devastators and missed with all of them. Signums, if I paid points for them I'd hate them for how worthless they are.

Pedro started in a terminator squad with a Librarian. I thined them out over several turns with plasma cannon fire until it was just Pedro left, who I assaulted with my Libriarian (who's assault squad and priest had just been plasma cannoned and he'd lost a wound) and killed with the sanguine sword. Next turn my Libriarian rolled a 2 on a save against a flamer.

I won but did pretty badly considering I was fighting the youngest guy there with a bad army (Pedro and no sternguard, AoBR termies with no heavy weapons, techmarine with out of box servitors).

Second game was against the local daemon player's 'undefeated' army.

Kairos Fateweaver
Kugath
2 units of plaguebearers
2 units of horrors, 1 with changeling
daemon prince of nurgle
2 soulgrinders.

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Dawn of war, 4 objectives. I had a combat squad with lascannon in a tower on one objective and an honour guard and plasma cannon tactical squad in the chapel on another. He had first turn. The flamers landed and wiped out the tactical squad and all but four members of the honour guard. The daemon prince killed 2 from the lascannon squad and they broke.

My turn I moved three devastator (2 were combat squads with 2 missiles) and a priest led melta assault squad on to reinforce the tower, a tactical combat squad and deathcompany unit to take back the chapel from the flamers and a libriarian, priest and flamer squad to take out some horrors who were in the middle.

My flamers killed all but one horror, who the last member of the honour guard killed in combat.

The melta assault marines charged the daemon prince, dealing 2 wounds, but broke and legged it.

His flamers all got killed by the deathcompany's bolters.

His turn a soulgrinder comes down and kills some of the Librarian's assault marines. Kugath comes down nearby and fires his missile thingy and kills a few more. The daemon prince moves up and chases my assault marines and the lascannon squad off the board.

My turn the three devastator squads spot the daemon prince and fire enough rockets into him to kill him. Shooting rockets at daemons? Makes me feel like its 1995 and I'm playing Doom.

The deathcompany fire a few bolt guns at Kugath while the tactical combat squad moves into the objective.

The Librarian gets confused and doesn't know to charge Kugath or the Soulgrinder. Bravely he charges the soulgrinder and casts Unleash Rage and The Sanguine Sword. He hits twice, getting a glancing and a penetrating hit. The glancing hit is a stun that he ignores but the penetrating hit fels the foul machine.

The lone honour guard charges Kugath and blocks the daemon's mighty blows with his storm shield.

His turn more horrors come down, this time trying to take the tower that the daemon prince just died by. Plaguebearers come in and take another objective, giving him 2 on his side of the board. Another soulgrinder comes down in front of the Librarian.

The mawcannon fires, killing a few assault marines who fail their cover save and the sanguinary priest , leaving me with none since my other ones got flamered on turn 1 or ran off the board with the other assault marines.

Kugath tries to swat away the honour guard, but fails yet again.

The horrors kill four missile launcher devastators, leaving just the sergeant alive

My turn.

The librarian and his squad flies after the second soulgrinder and with Sanguine Sword and Unleash rage he gets three hits again, this time all penetrate and the infernal contraption is dead . His squad consolidates under the wreckage for cover.

The devastators missile the horrors, but only a few die. The lone devastator sergeant charges and kills one, but fails his save and has his head crushed by the changeling.

The honour guard survives yet another turn

His turn
Kairos Fateweaver finally shows up.

Kugath kills the honour guard at last and summons some nurglings

My turn.
The deathcompany try to shoot the nurglings but the changeling makes them kill a tactical marine instead. The tactical squad's plasma gun deals a wound to Kugath.

One missile devastator squad kills a few horrors. The other one fires their pistols and then finishes them off in close combat. So one unit of horrors got shot to bits by assault marines and the other one got wiped out in CC by devastators

The Librarian charges Kairos with his squad and deal no wounds.

From that point on it all went south, Kairos didn't suffer a single wound and Kugath wiped out the combat squad and the deathcompany. He ended the game with 2 objectives held by plague bearers. I had 2 devastator combat squads and a assault marine sergeant in combat with Kairos the invincible. Kugath still had 4 wounds left.

Against Tau I had Lelith in a squad of 8 wyches with raider, agoniser and shardnet. My Archon in a venom with 4 incubi included Klaivex with demiklaives and 10 warriors in a raider with splinter cannon and blaster. He had 2 units of fire warriors, 3 broadsides with drones, commander and bodyguards with missiles, fusion guns and drones.

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Turn 1 the venom flies up and kills one of the broadside's drones with its splinter cannons, the wyche's raider moves flat out in front of the broadsides and the warriors just moves 6" and shoots the squad's splinter cannon, which fails to kill a fire warrior and the dark lance which fails to kill a drone.

His turn he stuns all my vehicles and blows the dark lances off the raiders. He forgot about my vehicles being open topped, which may have effected the game a little but my wyches might still have been in assault range with fleet.

Turn 2 Archon Ysabael and her Incubi leap out of the venom and charge the commander and his bodyguard. Lelith gets out her raider and charges the broadsides. The warriors get out of their shaken raider so they can get into cover and shoot, killing a firewarrior with the splinter cannon.

Lelith gets 12 attacks and yet somehow manages to kill only a single drone. The rest of the wyches make up for it by killing all his drones while suffering no wounds in return and catching and wiping out the broadsides (despite rolling a 1 on the initative roll).

Ysabel manages to do better than Lelith and kills 2 drones. The rest of the incubi kill some gun drones and 1 bodyguard. The battlesuits do nothing, but the shield drones somehow manage to kill 2 incubi Regardless they break and get torn apart.

His turn he feels like surrendering but I remind his that he only needs a bit of luck to wipe me out with his 20+ fire warriors.

One unit shoots at Lelith's unit, causing one wound on her and killing all but a single regular wyche and the shardnet. If it weren't for the pain token from killing the broadsides Lelith wound be on her own.

The other unit shot at Ysabael and wounded her as well as killing her two remaining bodyguards.

Turn 3.
Lelith charges the firewarriors and only kills 2, but the wyches kill a few despite their defensive grenades and its enough to break them and wipe them out.

Ysabael tries to do the same but only kills three fire warriors. They get one hit on her which she negates with her clonefield. They just pass their break test.

His turn Ysabael fluffs her rolling and only kills one and her clone field once again negates the only hit on her. The fire warriors still don't run.

Turn 4 he surrenders due to Lelith being close enough to charge in to help out Ysabael.

With Dark Eldar vs Tau at 1000 points it can't really go beyond turn 3.

[Deth Muncher]

Hey, any tips on how to Iron Warriors-ify some Grey Knights/GK Termis? I'm feeling like that's going to be my next project, after putting together a Dradnought once I find it again.

[Incomp]

Iron warriors...the chaos legion? That's an...interesting project. Sadly, GKs wouldn't make good Iron Warriors AFAIK. Plus they're metal. :(

[Turcano]

Is there a seasoned converter in the house? I could use some advice, if they're willing to share.

Backstory: I finally bit the bullet and invested in a Daemonhunter army - a number of visits to eBay has netted me an appreciable number of both Grey Knights, Grey Knight Terminators (and even a GK Land Raider), more than enough to legally play 2000 points should I choose to.

Interestingly, one lot had Brother-Captain Stern as part of the deal - not that I particularly wanted him in my army (I don't, he sucks) but he was free with a bunch of stuff I *did* want, so I shouldn't realy complain.

What I'd like to know from you is, what do you think would be the best way to remove his head while at the same time preserving the psychic hood thing around it if possible?
Here he is, if you're unsure as to what I mean. Terrible character, great model, but I simply can't abide a Space Marine Commander with no helmet.

I'm considering investing in a rotary tool with a small-ish head but that seems to be the proverbial anti-mosquito cannon. Is there a better way I could about it, other than using a scalpel and a steady hand to dig it out sliver by sliver?

At some point in the future I'd like to do the same thing, replacing the Stern head with a GW terminator helmet. My plan is to take a plastic terminator helmet, cut it down to make it look like the GW terminator helmet, and then take out the plastic in the rear to make a shell that I can just glue over the normal head. If you were planning on doing something similar, that's probably a more painless way to go about it.

[Deth Muncher]

Iron warriors...the chaos legion? That's an...interesting project. Sadly, GKs wouldn't make good Iron Warriors AFAIK. Plus they're metal. :(

Gah, they still haven't released GKs in plastic? Damn you, WOTC...er, sorry, I'm just so used to saying that on these boards. Damn you, GW!

And yeah, IW the Chaos legion. I've always felt that the GK armor - especially the helmets - just kind of screamed IW, and so I was thinking of Chaosifying some at some point.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Gah, they still haven't released GKs in plastic? Damn you, WOTC...er, sorry, I'm just so used to saying that on these boards. Damn you, GW!

*blink*
They haven't released anything new for the GKs in, like, eight years.

this isn't news

Stern isn't a bad character, either. He's 34 points less than a Grand Master with Holocaust and Hammerhand (both very useful powers), and he only has -1W and -1A, plus his re-roll trick.

If nothing else, he's a second NFW force weapon. Which is nice, seeing as they work on Eternal Warrior types.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Grey Knights being the next 40K army (with plastic minis) is pretty much certain.

When I was fighting Tau I also rolled a 2 on my combat drugs, getting +1 WS. Which I just ignored because it sounded useless but actually his fire warriors should have been hitting wyches on 5s, but even hitting on 4s they couldn't kill one.

[Cheesegear]

Grey Knights being the next 40K army (with plastic minis) is pretty much certain.

Source please?

[Keris]

Hey guys, after reading Imperial Armour 9 I decided to put together a Tyrant's Legion list, mainly because it allows me to combine my existing Marines with the Guardsmen I've been putting together as a modelling experiment.

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1500pts Tyrant's Legion List

HQ:
Legion Centurion  - 80pts
 - Power fist

Legion Auxilia Command Detachment - 105pts
 - Grenade launcher x2, missile launcher heavy weapons team
 - Tribune upgrade for Prefect

Elites:
Corpse Taker - 120pts
 - 3 Dissection Servitors
 - Apothecary Vivisector with power weapon and bolt pistol
 - Razorback

Marauder Squad  - 240pts
 - 2x Meltaguns, 2x Brutes
 - Marauder Chief with meltabombs
 - Murder Cultists
 - Arvus Lighter with TL autocannon

Legion Retaliator Squad - 195pts
 - Lascutter
 - Sergeant with power weapon
 - Razorback with TL lascannon

Troops
Legion Space Marine Cohort - 240pts
 - Plasma gun x2
 - Sergeant with power fist
 - Rhino

Legion Auxilia - 80pts
 - Flamer x2

Auxilia Armsmen Cadre - 65pts
 - Grenade launcher, autocannon team

Auxilia Armsmen Cadre - 65pts
 - Grenade launcher, autocannon team

Heavy Support
Auxilia Battle Tank Squadron - 210pts
 - Leman Russ Battle Tank w/ lascannon, heavy bolter sponsons, extra armour and a dozer blade

Artillery Barrage - 100pts
 - Bombard Strike

I'm not aiming for the list to be particularly competitive, just something to bring down to the FLGS every now and then. However, I would like some advice and opinions; I'd hate to spend ages putting it together only to find I've picked crap wargear choices.

Since not everyone has a copy of IA9 I'll run through my choices below, which should hopefully get me some more advice.

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Legion Centurion - This guy is compulsory in 1500pts or above. He's essentially a 2 wound Space Marine Sergeant; I plan on sticking him in with the Corpse Taker unit.
Legion Auxilia Command Detachment - Basically an IG command squad, except they lose orders in favour of an 18″ Leadership bubble. The Tribune upgrade gets the leader a second wound and a 5+ Invuln. save, which should allow other to benefit from his 'mighty' Ld 8 a bit longer.
Corpse Taker - Chosen primarily because I like the idea, the Apothecary Vivisector is essentially an evil Apothecary. He has a special rule that means SM units wiped out within 12″ count double for Kill Points, and comes with a pair of Dissection Servitors, which are armed only with chainswords. His narthecium (and thus FNP) sorta useless with only Servitors around, which is why I'm planning on the Centurion riding with him. The Razorback is so they can get into combat quicker (with only a couple of bolt pistols, this unit won't be doing a whole lot of shooting)
Marauder Squad - Murder Cultists gives the unit Furious Charge and Scout, and with an Arvus Lighter as a transport they should hopefully be able to get in a position to melta something's rear armour. The Brutes can soak up some firepower (W3), and should prove useful in an assault (S/T 4 and 3 attacks).
Legion Retaliator Squad - Assault Marines who lose jump packs for combat shields, the Razorback is probably essential to get these guys forwards quickly. The Lascutter is basically a Str 9 powerfist that you can't get bonus attacks with (even for charging) and it only costs 5pts.
Legion Space Marine Cohort - Spess Mareens who can take a special/heavy weapon for each 5 guys in the squad, and come in batches of 10-20. They (and all other Legion troops) unfortunately don't have combat squads, so I've left them 10 strong for now.
Legion Auxilia - Conscripts with a worse save, can rally under half strength, and a Ld 7 sergeant. They're a 1+, so I have to have them. They come in mobs of 20-40, and get a special weapon per 10 guys.
Auxilia Armsmen Cadre - An infantry squad that can re-roll 1's to hit when standing still. These two squads will stand back and provide fire support.
Auxilia Battle Tank Squadron - A Leman Russ. Mainly so I can use the conversion I've been working on.
Artillery Barrage - Str 8 AP 3, 7″ blast. Comes in from Reserve and is placed anywhere my guys can draw line of sight to, scatting 2d6 off that point each turn. Should be useful to tie down any objective I don't think I can get to.

Please feel free to correct any misconceptions, and any advise would be welcome.

[Wraith]

If you were planning on doing something similar, that's probably a more painless way to go about it.

That is pretty much what I was intending - my green stuff skills have never been put to the test, and I wouldn't dare modeling my own helmet without a number of less expensive projects first - but was wondering if there was an easier way that doesn't involve buying a new set of tools.

Thanks anyway, Turcano. Plastic helmet avec knives it is, I think.

Stern isn't a bad character, either. He's 34 points less than a Grand Master with Holocaust and Hammerhand (both very useful powers), and he only has -1W and -1A, plus his re-roll trick.

If nothing else, he's a second NFW force weapon. Which is nice, seeing as they work on Eternal Warrior types.

I have issues with any character that not only inflicts s5 hits on my own units but also punishes me for using his special abilities (in the sense that Stern's reroll trick gives a free reroll to my opponent too. Do you see Eldrad giving your opponent a free setup at the start of the game? Or Dante giving Descent of Angels to the enemy? Of course not, and they are examples of some very good characters )

That Hammerhand is considered among the best of GK Psychic powers, just showcases how poor the others really are.
Why turn your S6 Power-Nemesis Force Weapon into a s8 club? Were he given the equivalent to a Power Fist then I wouldn't mind, but s8 non-power is pretty poor, especially when he has no earthly business trying to take down any vehicle other than a light transport, for which his Force Weapon will do just fine anyway.

And what irks me the most is that I a deliberately trying to build an army of the Emperor's most dedicated and potent of soldiers, and I like the idea of building my ow Hero to lead them.

Meanwhile, by RaW, Stern isn't a Grey Knight. I admit that he isn't an awful character in so far a these things go, but in terms of strength and usefulness he's barely Second Tier if we were being VERY generous, and as a character he lacks the fundamental abilities that make him better than an ordinary Space Marine Chapter Master-in-Terminator-Armour.
I couldn't besmirch the honour of the Chapter by allowing them to be led by an 'impostor'!

[Closet_Skeleton]

That Hammerhand is considered among the best of GK Psychic powers, just showcases how poor the others really are. Why turn your S6 Power-Nemesis Force Weapon into a s8 club? ere he given the equivalent to a Power Fist then I wouldn't mind, but s8 non-power is pretty poor.

Hammerhand is for attacking vehicles in melee. Power weapon does nothing against vehicles.

[Deth Muncher]

*blink*
They haven't released anything new for the GKs in, like, eight years.

this isn't news

Oh, I know. But it's been a while since I paid attention to 40k, so when I noticed that Dark Eldar had been updated, I just kind of assumed everything else had too.

[Wraith]

If you're having your Grey Knight HQ (in Terminator Armour with a 'reroll' for his saves and a Nemesis Force Weapon specifically designed to kill characters and Eternal Warriors) bludgeoning his way through the side of a tank, something has gone very wrong.

Fair enough, maybe I exaggerated a little. But still, for one of the better GK Psychic Powers, it's very subjective and still not as good as most of the powers owned by Space Marines, Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

And to be honest, GK Powers have never been as good as those of the other Astartes, which is a poor show from a Chapter made up exclusively of some of the most highly trained psykers in the Imperium.

If it comes down to either Stern, or a Grand Master with a Thunder Hammer? I'll take the hit to my points with a disgustingly big smile and thank you for it.*
Or take a normal Brother-Captain and give one of his retinue a 'Hammer for free, that works just as well.

* Please note that my currently proposed Grand Master weighs in at a healthy 250pts for one model. Do not take my advice as anything other than the determined ramblings of a O.C.D.-inspired lunatic

[Closet_Skeleton]

Source please?

There's no official source, just more rumours for them than for anyone else. From the internet and GW employees that is. The same sources that everyone laughed at when they said "Dark Eldar" are also suggesting GKs.

And to be honest, GK Powers have never been as good as those of the other Astartes, which is a poor show from a Chapter made up exclusively of some of the most highly trained psykers in the Imperium.

Not true. In the edition the Grey Knights were actually supposed to be used in, then regular Space Marines only got Smite. Back when they were released Eldar and Chaos were the only other armies that even got a choice of powers. In the first 3rd ed Chaos book even Ahriman only knew 1 power, but they had their 2nd codex out by the time Daemonhunters came out. Orks and Guard didn't even get psykers until later.

[Arcanoi]

Hey guys, after reading Imperial Armour 9 I decided to put together a Tyrant's Legion list, mainly because it allows me to combine my existing Marines with the Guardsmen I've been putting together as a modelling experiment.

Spoiler

Show

1500pts Tyrant's Legion List

HQ:
Legion Centurion *- 80pts
*- Power fist

Legion Auxilia Command Detachment - 105pts
*- Grenade launcher x2, missile launcher heavy weapons team
*- Tribune upgrade for Prefect

Elites:
Corpse Taker - 120pts
*- 3 Dissection Servitors
*- Apothecary Vivisector with power weapon and bolt pistol
*- Razorback

Marauder Squad *- 240pts
*- 2x Meltaguns, 2x Brutes
*- Marauder Chief with meltabombs
*- Murder Cultists
*- Arvus Lighter with TL autocannon

Legion Retaliator Squad - 195pts
*- Lascutter
*- Sergeant with power weapon
*- Razorback with TL lascannon

Troops
Legion Space Marine Cohort - 240pts
*- Plasma gun x2
*- Sergeant with power fist
*- Rhino

Legion Auxilia - 80pts
*- Flamer x2

Auxilia Armsmen Cadre - 65pts
*- Grenade launcher, autocannon team

Auxilia Armsmen Cadre - 65pts
*- Grenade launcher, autocannon team

Heavy Support
Auxilia Battle Tank Squadron - 210pts
*- Leman Russ Battle Tank w/ lascannon, heavy bolter sponsons, extra armour and a dozer blade

Artillery Barrage - 100pts
*- Bombard Strike

I'm not aiming for the list to be particularly competitive, just something to bring down to the FLGS every now and then. However, I would like some advice and opinions; I'd hate to spend ages putting it together only to find I've picked crap wargear choices.

Since not everyone has a copy of IA9 I'll run through my choices below, which should hopefully get me some more advice.

Spoiler

Show

Legion Centurion - This guy is compulsory in 1500pts or above. He's essentially a 2 wound Space Marine Sergeant; I plan on sticking him in with the Corpse Taker unit.
Legion Auxilia Command Detachment - Basically an IG command squad, except they lose orders in favour of an 18″ Leadership bubble. The Tribune upgrade gets the leader a second wound and a 5+ Invuln. save, which should allow other to benefit from his 'mighty' Ld 8 a bit longer.
Corpse Taker - Chosen primarily because I like the idea, the Apothecary Vivisector is essentially an evil Apothecary. He has a special rule that means SM units wiped out within 12″ count double for Kill Points, and comes with a pair of Dissection Servitors, which are armed only with chainswords. His narthecium (and thus FNP) sorta useless with only Servitors around, which is why I'm planning on the Centurion riding with him. The Razorback is so they can get into combat quicker (with only a couple of bolt pistols, this unit won't be doing a whole lot of shooting)
Marauder Squad - Murder Cultists gives the unit Furious Charge and Scout, and with an Arvus Lighter as a transport they should hopefully be able to get in a position to melta something's rear armour. The Brutes can soak up some firepower (W3), and should prove useful in an assault (S/T 4 and 3 attacks).
Legion Retaliator Squad - Assault Marines who lose jump packs for combat shields, the Razorback is probably essential to get these guys forwards quickly. The Lascutter is basically a Str 9 powerfist that you can't get bonus attacks with (even for charging) and it only costs 5pts.
Legion Space Marine Cohort - Spess Mareens who can take a special/heavy weapon for each 5 guys in the squad, and come in batches of 10-20. They (and all other Legion troops) unfortunately don't have combat squads, so I've left them 10 strong for now.
Legion Auxilia - Conscripts with a worse save, can rally under half strength, and a Ld 7 sergeant. They're a 1+, so I have to have them. They come in mobs of 20-40, and get a special weapon per 10 guys.
Auxilia Armsmen Cadre - An infantry squad that can re-roll 1's to hit when standing still. These two squads will stand back and provide fire support.
Auxilia Battle Tank Squadron - A Leman Russ. Mainly so I can use the conversion I've been working on.
Artillery Barrage - Str 8 AP 3, 7″ blast. Comes in from Reserve and is placed anywhere my guys can draw line of sight to, scatting 2d6 off that point each turn. Should be useful to tie down any objective I don't think I can get to.

Please feel free to correct any misconceptions, and any advise would be welcome.

I remember reading this list in IA9 and thinking "I'd much rather do this with Imperial Guard and Allies," and it's no less true now. You could essentially take everything you're taking now, but not be crippling yourself so thoroughly.

[Ninja Chocobo]

I have issues with any character that not only inflicts s5 hits on my own units

Erm Holocaust doesn't have to be centred on the guy (so it's possible to only hit the dude himself), and you've got a 2+ save. With, potentially, a re-roll. I have seen Holocaust used to enormous effect.

but also punishes me for using his special abilities (in the sense that Stern's reroll trick gives a free reroll to my opponent too. Do you see Eldrad giving your opponent a free setup at the start of the game? Or Dante giving Descent of Angels to the enemy? Of course not, and they are examples of some very good characters )

The thing with that is that they have to use it in the same player turn. Which means you get to use it at the perfect time but they have to scramble to get a use out of it. It's a finesse ability, and if you're playing Grey Knights you ought to hope you've got buckets of finesse.

and as a character he lacks the fundamental abilities that make him better than an ordinary Space Marine Chapter Master-in-Terminator-Armour.

Well, he's cheaper, for a start.

If it comes down to either Stern, or a Grand Master with a Thunder Hammer? I'll take the hit to my points with a disgustingly big smile and thank you for it.*
Or take a normal Brother-Captain and give one of his retinue a 'Hammer for free, that works just as well.

What. What.
Grandmaster NFWs are quite possibly the single best close combat weapons in the sodding game. why would you trade them for anything

[evisiron]

So tomorrow is the Assault on Arkham tournament, and I am marching in with an Ork list that has netted me the worst win-loss ratio of any list I have ever ran.
Better to try and get good with new stuff than rest upon the tried and tested, right?

I popped down to make sure I could navigate to there, and damn, they have a lot of huge building ruins. Not that I would change my list, but I can already see my battlewagons are going to have a hellish time.
Thankfully, I am not running an all-warbike list or anything.

Wish me luck, as Da Blue Horde is on Da Road Again!

[Keris]

I remember reading this list in IA9 and thinking "I'd much rather do this with Imperial Guard and Allies," and it's no less true now. You could essentially take everything you're taking now, but not be crippling yourself so thoroughly.

Aren't Guard only able to ally with DH/WH outside of Apocalypse games? And I know next to nothing about effective list building, but how does the Tyrant's Legion list cripple itself?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Aren't Guard only able to ally with DH/WH outside of Apocalypse games? And I know next to nothing about effective list building, but how does the Tyrant's Legion list cripple itself?

Yeah, you can't combine Space Marines and guard normally. Only way to do it is to get an Inquisition army and take Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and Inducted Space Marines (you can't induct both guard and marines).

The Tyrant's Legion list is terrible in every way.

Someone else's review from a more competative than thou view point. I wouldn't agree with it entirely (multi-meltas are the best weapon for tactical squads? Your marines are 20 points cheaper for 10 so no free heavy weapons isn't so bad.)

Mixing guard and Space Marines? Okay in theory but unlikely to be amazing. A list that gives you weak guard units and weak space marine units? Terrible.

[Zorg]

Is there a seasoned converter in the house? I could use some advice, if they're willing to share.
What I'd like to know from you is, what do you think would be the best way to remove his head while at the same time preserving the psychic hood thing around it if possible?

Drill out most of the head with a rotary tool (anythign else will take forever and damage your tools), then convert a plastic Termie head to a GK head:

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from here

Attach new head to neck, but be prepared to cut away at the palstic rather than the metal to get it to fit - I've added a helmet to the standard Termie Librarian and it is far easier to cut the plastic helmet short and use green stuff than to remove more metal.

[Keris]

Only way to do it is to get an Inquisition army and take Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and Inducted Space Marines (you can't induct both guard and marines).

That would work, but it's not really what I'm looking for. The Tyrant's Legion list also has some cool sounding units (which is more important to me than how well it performs), and I'd have to toss out my (admittedly in progress) Guard conversions if I swapped them for ISTs.

The Tyrant's Legion list is terrible in every way.

Someone else's review from a more competitive than thou view point.

Ugh, I hate that site. Pink text is bad enough, but the banner is just awful. "Hmm. We have a 100px wide logo, how should we display it on the page? I know, I'll put the logo on 1600px wide image that's just a flat blue, with no provisions for people using smaller screens!"
Anyway, I probably come under what 3++ deems "players wishing to have a unique army or looking to representing an unusual force from their own fluff". I know the list isn't going to be optimal; I'll just have to learn to use it well if I want to be competitive.

The list is an excuse for conversions foremost, an opportunity for some background, and then an effective list last. I'm mainly hoping someone can help with the unit loadouts and p'haps battlefield role, as well as correcting any heinous misconceptions.

[Arcanoi]

That would work, but it's not really what I'm looking for. The Tyrant's Legion list also has some cool sounding units (which is more important to me than how well it performs), and I'd have to toss out my (admittedly in progress) Guard conversions if I swapped them for ISTs.

The list is an excuse for conversions foremost, an opportunity for some background, and then an effective list last. I'm mainly hoping someone can help with the unit loadouts and p'haps battlefield role, as well as correcting any heinous misconceptions.

You're aware that as long as a model meets WYSIWYG, nobody is going to care that your ISTs are modeled as Tyrant's Legion Guardsmen, right?

Another alternative is Guardsmen with Grey Knight allies to represent the Astral Claws.

[Wraith]

Erm Holocaust doesn't have to be centred on the guy (so it's possible to only hit the dude himself), and you've got a 2+ save. With, potentially, a re-roll. I have seen Holocaust used to enormous effect.

Even so, I don't trust my luck that much.
My Farseer lives in abject terror of me because, despite all the odds, he has blown his own head off with a failed Perils of the Warp test (including associated saves and wards) in 8 of my last 10 games.

What. What.
Grandmaster NFWs are quite possibly the single best close combat weapons in the sodding game. why would you trade them for anything

Ah...bwuh? "Trade"? What is this "Trade" of which you speak?

Oh no, no, no, sir.... "The Grand Master/Brother-Captain may be given any equipment in the Daemonhunters' wargear list". At no point does anything say 'replace' or 'exchange', so he can happily take both at the same time.
This is why I call my Grand-Master a 'Hero' rather than a mere Space Marine. Because he makes other Chapter Masters look like frightened little girls (Yes, Calgar, I'm looking at you.)

Not true. In the edition the Grey Knights were actually supposed to be used in, then regular Space Marines only got Smite. Back when they were released Eldar and Chaos were the only other armies that even got a choice of powers. In the first 3rd ed Chaos book even Ahriman only knew 1 power, but they had their 2nd codex out by the time Daemonhunters came out. Orks and Guard didn't even get psykers until later.

Cheerfully withdrawn. They have, perhaps more fairly, aged far worse than most of the examples available in other Codices. Truthfully I'd be hard pressed to think of another Codex that specifically refers to rules that no longer exist.

Drill out most of the head with a rotary tool (anythign else will take forever and damage your tools), then convert a plastic Termie head to a GK head:[/spoiler]

Incidentally, that was the exact tutorial that I had in mind when I referred to rotary tools an headswapping. Thanks for sourcing it again though, Zorg; it's a great image to have handy

[Closet_Skeleton]

Ah...bwuh? "Trade"? What is this "Trade" of which you speak?

Oh no, no, no, sir.... "The Grand Master/Brother-Captain may be given any equipment in the Daemonhunters' wargear list". At no point does anything say 'replace' or 'exchange', so he can happily take both at the same time.

Sorry.

Page 8 of the PDF codex.

Characters may have up to two weapons, one of which may be a two-handed weapon.

So you can have a thunder hammer (or a daemon hammer, its only 5 more ponits) and a halberd but then you can't have any ranged weapon.

Cheerfully withdrawn. They have, perhaps more fairly, aged far worse than most of the examples available in other Codices. Truthfully I'd be hard pressed to think of another Codex that specifically refers to rules that no longer exist.

The Black Templars codex refers to a rule that no-longer exists (firing priorities) and forces them to use it anyway according to the FAQ.

[Tome]

Cheerfully withdrawn. They have, perhaps more fairly, aged far worse than most of the examples available in other Codices. Truthfully I'd be hard pressed to think of another Codex that specifically refers to rules that no longer exist.

The Tau codex has a rather substantial amount of wargear dedicated to Target Priority tests.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Ugh, I hate that site. Pink text is bad enough, but the banner is just awful. "Hmm. We have a 100px wide logo, how should we display it on the page? I know, I'll put the logo on 1600px wide image that's just a flat blue, with no provisions for people using smaller screens!"
Anyway, I probably come under what 3++ deems "players wishing to have a unique army or looking to representing an unusual force from their own fluff". I know the list isn't going to be optimal; I'll just have to learn to use it well if I want to be competitive.

There's no denying that 3++ use an ooglay format, but the fact remains that they have a good point. You might say that having an effective list doesn't matter, but you will be lucky to win ANY games with the Tyrants Legion.

Maybe you're okay with this, I dunno. But everyone wants to win sometimes, losing over and over and over again gets quite disheartening, regardless of your original intentions (trust me, I know ).