Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Cheesegear]

That's fairly tenuous though. It's hardly an ironclad argument that arriving via a deep striking transport requires a unit to be subject to the same deep strike restrictions. There's similarly circumstantial evidence to the contrary in the same codex.

Found it. The paragraphs on Deep Striking; BBB, page 95.

In the Movement phase, when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking vehicle.
[...]
In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles count as having moved at Cruising Speed.
[...]
In that turn's Assault phase, however, these units may not launch an Assault [...] they are too disrupted by their Deep Strike move.

In a vehicle or not, Open-Topped or not; You can never Assault after a Deep Strike unless you have a special rule.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Open-topped or not, you can never Assault out of a Deep Striking vehicle. Unless you've got a special rule.

This was covered; the idea is that the unit isn't Deep Striking, the transport is. Then they disembark (which they can do), and since it's Open Topped, they assault.
(Assault, by the way, being quite an effective counter-argument against people who try this on you)

e: Hm. The Lucius Pattern Dreadnought Drop Pod's Assault Vehicle special rule has the same name as the Land Raider's. The wording is different, though.

[Ricky S]

@ Cheesegear:
Yea that is always the problem. Its a catch 22. I dont want to buy the army without testing it. And I wont be able to test it without buying it. At least everything is a troops choice well except for the Command squad.

@ Zorg:
Yea I know the captain is really expensive but I dont think there is anything else that I can spend the points on. Plus he will definately use all of his items as he is mounted. Although if I dropped his articifer armour, hellfire rounds and a storm shield I could take a rhino for the tactical squad on foot. I know the bike squads are fairly small but that is how they are most effective.

I'm not sure how this army will work but the general plan would be:
-Deep strike the drop pod tactical squad onto an objective or next to some an infantry unit they can rapid fire the stuffing out of.
-The tactical squad on foot will be used to hold an objective in my board edge and provide some cover fire (plasma cannon).
-The rhino tactical squad will be used to capture objectives in the open and reinforce any holes in the line.
- Command squad with captain as an infantry/Monstrous creature killer.
- Plasma gun bikes to destroy light vehicles and kill heavy infantry
- Bike squad with Meltas as anti-tank.

[Eldan]

So, at the local shop, there's a rumour going around that there's going to be a new Eldar codex sometime soon. Anything behind this or just baseless?

[Cheesegear]

So, at the local shop, there's a rumour going around that there's going to be a new Eldar codex sometime soon. Anything behind this or just baseless?

Nothing that I've heard in any shape or form. Just spent the last ten minutes on Warseer looking for anything on the subject...Nope. Is it Blackshirts telling you this? If so, since the Blood Angels debacle, they can lose their job for saying stuff like that if its true.

Since the aforementioned Blood Angels...Thing...We don't really get rumours anymore. Pretty much nothing will ever be confirmed ever again until you can see it in a White Dwarf.


However, I know Eldar are getting some fun new things in IA11. I know this one is true. Perhaps this is what people mean? Forgeworld is not Games Workshop, and actually likes telling people what they're doing.

[Eldan]

Not blackshirts, no. It's not an official GW shop, merely a semi-associated one, and it was two of the shop assistants telling me this, not the owner himself (who wasn't around, or I'd have asked him, he usually knows the stuff). Which is why I am suspicious.

Oh well. That could perhaps actually have gotten me back into 40k.

[Cheesegear]

Had a look on BoLS

2011 supposedly has Grey Knights to be released in Q1 (February or March), with Tau or Necrons to be released in Q3. None of this is confirmed. People are saying that from what they've seen, currently, it would 'make sense' if GW released GKs next. Will most likely get released with the Stormraven.

Keep in mind that the discussion seems to be GKs only. Not 'the Inquisition'.

However, 2011 will definitely contain Flyers for everyone. Similar to Spearhead, released earlier this year. That's about all that's actually confirmed. Or not. And we may see a return of more 'White Dwarf rules' similar to what the Eldar Night Spinner was given so that everyone's Codex gets updated gradually.

It has its ups and downs.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The single, 15-man brood of termagants seems pretty pointless to me. I'm not a 'nids player, but I would think you take gaunts in force or not at all.

In my genestealer list their role was objective camping and going to ground. Now they're just in there because that's all the models I have.

Hi

I am planning on making the white scars army list that is shown on page 107 of the Space Marines Codex. I just wanted to know whether that would be an effective army? There will be a few small differences. Mainly just getting rid of the scouts as they dont fit the theme to my army and taking plasma in their place on the tactical squads.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Captain, Bike, Artificer Armour, Relic Blade, Hellfire Rounds, Storm Shield- 205 pts

Command Squad, Bikes, Company Champion, Flamer x 2, Storm Shield x 2- 260 pts

Troops
Bike Squad x 5, Plasma gun x 2, Power Sword- 185 pts

Bike Squad x 5, Melta gun x 2, Power Fist, Attack Bike, Multi-Melta- 235 pts

Tactical Squad x10 Meltagun and Multi-Melta, Drop Pod -210 pts

Tactical Squad x10, Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon, Rhino- 220 pts

Tactical Squad x10, Plasma gun, Plasma Cannon- 185 pts

Total 1500
So what do you guys think?

Also just a quick question can a librarian join a command squad and benefit from the apothecary's feel no pain rule?

I would drop the rhino-less squad for more bikes and I'm not sure about the command squad's flamers

[Incomp]

@ Cheesegear:
Yea that is always the problem. Its a catch 22. I dont want to buy the army without testing it. And I wont be able to test it without buying it. At least everything is a troops choice well except for the Command squad.

That's not really true. In a casual setting, playing practice games with proxied models should be fine with your opponents. (So long as you have access to the codex, of course. You will need to buy that.)

[Cheesegear]

That's not really true. In a casual setting, playing practice games with proxied models should be fine with your opponents. (So long as you have access to the codex, of course. You will need to buy that.)

Some people might remember about two months or so ago I pretty much proxied an entire Grey Knights army. The kinds of people that don't allow proxying models when you're first starting, are not the kinds of people you want to be playing your first 'test-games' with a new army with, even if you do have the right models.

Proxying is an important part of starting a new army, and people should allow it more often. However, if you've had the same proxy models for longer than two weeks, you're not doing it right - this is assuming that you can get models fairly reliably. Proxy models should be gotten rid of. ASAP.

And, if you can't get models reliably...That's a different problem altogether and you might want to start a different hobby. Kind of like online gaming with an unstable internet connection.

[Renegade Paladin]

@ Cheesegear:
Yea that is always the problem. Its a catch 22. I dont want to buy the army without testing it. And I wont be able to test it without buying it. At least everything is a troops choice well except for the Command squad.

I shall now commit heresy of the highest order. Well, according to GW, anyway.

http://vassalengine.org

http://vassal40k.info

Welcome to the wonderful world of online tabletops. Enjoy, but don't recommend it in a GW store; they'll kick you out for not buying minis. It's no substitute for the real thing, of course, but it's wonderful for testing army ideas without spending tons of money only to find out something doesn't work.

[Erloas]

So, at the local shop, there's a rumour going around that there's going to be a new Eldar codex sometime soon. Anything behind this or just baseless?

Someone I play with mentioned something like this. More specifically what I think he said was that the guy that did the new Dark Eldar codex said that he came up with a lot of good ideas that would fit well in a craftworld eldar codex.
So someone that writes codex for GW has some good ideas for eldar or another eldar variant. If that means they actually let him write it and produce it anywhere in the near future is another question entirely.

[Wraith]

So, at the local shop, there's a rumour going around that there's going to be a new Eldar codex sometime soon. Anything behind this or just baseless?

I've become convinced that this is just wishful thinking.

Certainly, a small number of new Eldar units were announced at the same time as the Dark Eldar codex was confirmed, but nothing much else. Chances are we'll get a new 'errata' or something along those lines, but most likely is that all armies - Eldar included - will get a few new additions in the 'Flyers' sourcebook that Cheesegear mentioned, but I'll be utterly shocked and amazed if there's a dedicated Codex released this year.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Went into GW today to get some paint and someone there had bought the space marines to build a copy of someone else's cheesy Vulkan tournament army. Which made me die inside a little.

Not going to stop me from seeing if I can swap my AoBR multi-melta for some rocket launcher bits. Not like I have a use for it.

[TheThan]

I've become convinced that this is just wishful thinking.

Certainly, a small number of new Eldar units were announced at the same time as the Dark Eldar codex was confirmed, but nothing much else. Chances are we'll get a new 'errata' or something along those lines, but most likely is that all armies - Eldar included - will get a few new additions in the 'Flyers' sourcebook that Cheesegear mentioned, but I'll be utterly shocked and amazed if there's a dedicated Codex released this year.

i doubt it'll be this year for a new eldar codex, maybe late next year though. I think they need to do a necrons and inquisition book(s) first. necrons should take priority seeing as they now have the oldest codex out there.

[hamishspence]

Daemonhunters (Grey Knights) are older than Necrons- but once theirs is out, Necrons will indeed be the oldest.

[Klose_the_Sith]

i doubt it'll be this year for a new eldar codex, maybe late next year though. I think they need to do a necrons and inquisition book(s) first. necrons should take priority seeing as they now have the oldest codex out there.

Pretty sure it's Grey Kights -> Necrons -> ??? -> Profit

[Ricky S]

@ Closet_Skeleton:
Yea I might drop the last tactical squad for more bikes but not the flamers. Flamers on a mounted command squad works wonders.

@ Incomp:
The thing is that I have no casual gaming area. I have to either play at tournaments or the local GW store. Its not that I dont have the necessary items to play at home it is just that I have no one to play with. I have a huge gaming board and more terrain than you can poke a stick at but everyone I know either stopped playing or has moved away.

The way I "test" armies and their components is by going to tournaments and seeing what works for other people. Although that is not the same as using it yourself it is better than nothing. And I have the codex already.

I have decided I am going to make the army I posted earlier and damned be the consequences.

Currently my armylist is:

Spoiler

Show

Captain, Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armour 160pts
Command Squad, Company Champion, Company Standard, Flamer, Storm Shield x 2, Rhino, Extra Armour - 230pts

Librarian "Avenger and Null zone"- 100pts

Terminators x 5 - 200pts

Dreadnought - 105pts

Tactical Squad x 10, Plasma gun, Plasma cannon - 185pts
Tactical Squad x 10, Plasma gun, Plasma cannon - 185pts

Bike Squad x 5, Power Fist, Melta x 2 - 185pts

Devastator Squad x 5, Missile Launcher x 4 - 150pts
Total 1500

My current army is pretty flawed as it doesnt focus on any one thing and lacks manouvrability. It obviously started with the AoBR boxed set (yes I know AoBR is terrible but it was cheaper to buy it than the hard back rule book). The terminators are not worth it and the Dreadnought is destroyed frequently on turn one or two without doing anything. Because of that I have a 300pts gap that the rest of my army have to take up the slack with. So this leaves me at a disadvantage right from the start of the game.

The devastator squad was bought simply to get the plasma cannons for the tac squads and armed with all missiles they dont do too badly. They take out lots of transports and light tanks, and are effective at destroying units of guard equivalents but there are only 5 of them so they frequently get cut down by small arms fire. The Bike squad has been great, being the main anti-tank of this army. The command squad and librarian go together in the rhino and take on the opponents close combat units (terminators, carnifexes, etc) or if they dont have one, they go infantry hunting. They are a large point sink though and if their rhino gets destroyed they are left stranded. The tactical squads are good because of the high str plasma but there aren't enough of them and I usually suffer in objective games because of it. My opponent will focus on destroying the two units to at least ensure a draw. Combat squading them makes it even easier to take out as they are too small in units of 5.

So my next step will to be to take another tactical squad, give them a meltagun and a multi-melta from the devastors squad I bought and drop the terminators.

[Incomp]

Then I recommend Vassal. It's honestly not as fun as the real deal, but it's a great way to test armies and a decent way to play 40k at home when you have no friends. (In the area, who play 40k, I mean.)

[TheThan]

Daemon hunters are 2003, necrons are 2002, so yeah the necrons are probably the oldest codex out there. Which fits with their backstory. At least according to the codexes (what’s the plural on that again?) I have.

[Tren]

Updated main rulebook FAQ is out. It's basically doubled in size. Alas, no resolution to the transport deep strike question. Also, DE raiders will never be able to go flat-out again.

Edit: As someone reminded me, anytime the rules say "turn" they refer to "player turn", so the FAQ does not make fast moving vehicles flaming death traps in the enemy shooting phase. It merely makes clear that even in an Explodes result, the models still die as they would in a Wreck, being unable to disembark.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...version1_1.pdf

[sircarp]

I would say that the rules as written for deepstriking are pretty clear. Unless it clearly says that you may do so, you cannot. In the case of the Duke, or a Land Speeder Storm, they don't say anything about assault in their rules, so the rules on deepstriking hold.

[Tazar]

I seriously doubt there will be a new Eldar codex anytime soon.

Tau, Necrons, Grey Knights and Witch Hunters all need the update more, and I believe Grey Knights and Necrons are confirmed for the 2011 schedule. Eldar will probably be a 2012 release at the earliest; they do need an update but their book isn't as outdated as any of the above.

I'm inclined to come down on the side of those agreeing you can't assault out of a deep-striking vehicle; whether or not it is mechanically sound it feels against Rules As Intended.

[EndlessWrath]

From what I heard, Grayknights and Witchhunters and/daemonhunters were being put into 1 codex. I'm not certain about this though. Necrons...in my opinion, should definitely have an update in the codex...but I hope they don't change the Gauss weapons at all.

[hamishspence]

Daemon hunters are 2003, necrons are 2002, so yeah the necrons are probably the oldest codex out there. Which fits with their backstory. At least according to the codexes (what’s the plural on that again?) I have.

After a bit of checking, I've found you're right- Necrons were August 2002:
http://www.gamehobby.net/white_dwarf...dwarf_271.html

and Daemonhunters were March 2003:
http://www.gamehobby.net/white_dwarf...dwarf_278.html

I'm not sure how I got them the wrong way round.

Updated main rulebook FAQ is out. It's basically doubled in size. Alas, no resolution to the transport deep strike question. Also, DE raiders will never be able to go flat-out again.

Explain. I've seen several references to flat-out in the FAQ- so it can't have been abolished.

[Cheesegear]

Went into GW today to get some paint and someone there had bought the space marines to build a copy of someone else's cheesy Vulkan tournament army. Which made me die inside a little.

Sad face. Another case of Competitive 40K and Net Listing ruining the hobby

The thing is that I have no casual gaming area. I have to either play at tournaments or the local GW store.

What's wrong with the GW store? I play quite a fair few games there. Especially when I'm starting a new army since the people I'm most likely to play against in the store are...Not extremely competitive. Leaving me to develop the list how I like it so when I eventually do play the competitive players, I at least have some idea of how my list works.

The way I "test" armies and their components is by going to tournaments and seeing what works for other people.

This...Isn't that different to what Closet_Skeleton posted. The only difference is that you're actually getting out of the house, rather than cherry-picking from your computer chair.
While it is a commendable difference, the outcome is the same.

I have decided I am going to make the army I posted earlier and damned be the consequences.

Hooray! That's more like it. I ran my take on your previous list earlier tonight (the White Scars one). It didn't perform as well as I would've liked to, but, its definitely...What's a word slightly better than adequate? Not terrible?

Currently my armylist [...] is pretty flawed as it doesnt focus on any one thing and lacks manouvrability. It obviously started with the AoBR boxed set (yes I know AoBR is terrible but it was cheaper to buy it than the hard back rule book). The terminators are not worth it and the Dreadnought is destroyed frequently on turn one or two without doing anything. Because of that I have a 300pts gap that the rest of my army have to take up the slack with. So this leaves me at a disadvantage right from the start of the game.

I've emphasised the important bits. Took the words right out of my mouth.

The devastator squad was bought simply to get the plasma cannons for the tac squads and armed with all missiles they dont do too badly.

That's how I do it.

They take out lots of transports and light tanks, and are effective at destroying units of guard equivalents but there are only 5 of them so they frequently get cut down by small arms fire.

I don't point this out very often, but Devastators are terrible unless you have Lysander or a Techmarine in the army. Since I regularly use Lysander and/or Thunderfire Cannons, this hasn't come up much in the thread.

Invest in a Predator or two.

They are a large point sink though and if their rhino gets destroyed they are left stranded.

That's why I prefer Command Squads on Bikes, rather than in a Rhino. Alternatively, you might consider getting a Razorback for them so they don't really have to move forwards for the first few turns. Do this especially if you plan on getting Predator(s) and/or Whirlwind(s).

The tactical squads are good because of the high str plasma but there aren't enough of them and I usually suffer in objective games because of it.

Get...More?

So my next step will to be to take another tactical squad, give them a meltagun and a multi-melta from the devastors squad I bought and drop the terminators.

I do like Terminators. But, if they're not working for you, then they're not working for you.

If you've got a Multi-Melta in a Tactical Squad; Get a Rhino. They wont be moving anytime soon, so they're usually sitting ducks. And, if they do want to move, they probably want to do so, faster.

From what I heard, Grayknights and Witchhunters and/daemonhunters were being put into 1 codex.

This has only ever been wishful thinking, no new Sisters or Deathwatch models have been seen in a long, long time. Grey Knight models have been popping up every now and then since the end of last year...And only Grey Knights.

All the rumours I have seen thus far have been about Grey Knights releases only. And its getting awfully close to Feb 2011 (the middle of Q1, when they're rumored for).

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't point this out very often, but Devastators are terrible unless you have Lysander or a Techmarine in the army. Since I regularly use Lysander and/or Thunderfire Cannons, this hasn't come up much in the thread.

How would sanguinary priests compare to that? They obviously don't help as well against AP2.

That's why I prefer Command Squads on Bikes, rather than in a Rhino. Alternatively, you might consider getting a Razorback for them so they don't really have to move forwards for the first few turns. Do this especially if you plan on getting Predator(s) and/or Whirlwind(s).

He's only got a rhino so he can put the librarian in the same unit, which to me feels like putting all your eggs in one basket, which from using Black Templars Command Squads with Marshall and Reclusiarch I know... well I can't actually remember. To be honest I don't think they've ever lost a fight, but I've lost battles using them.

One of the things I like about assault marines with jump packs over rhino ones is that you can't destroy their 12" move.

I might actually take a biker command squad if I could, but I can't because my codex is "obviously superior in every way due to power creep".

[Cheesegear]

How would sanguinary priests compare to that? They obviously don't help as well against AP2.

How does Feel No Pain stack up to a 3+ cover save?

Considering that a Priest is 50 points, I'd say quite well. Not only that, but you're taking the Priests anyway - seriously, you're daft if you don't.

Wheras Lysander and/or Thunderfire Cannons are not for everybody. Lysander takes the place of other characters you might want to use ([He'Stan, Pedro or Shrike] and Librarian), and Thunderfire Cannons slots from Whirlwinds, Predators and Vindicators when you want Mech, and take slots from MOAR DEVASTATORS when you don't play Mech.

[Tazar]

From what I heard, Grayknights and Witchhunters and/daemonhunters were being put into 1 codex. I'm not certain about this though. Necrons...in my opinion, should definitely have an update in the codex...but I hope they don't change the Gauss weapons at all.

Nah, that's been a rumor on Warseer for a while, but the reliable "insiders" like Harry have consistently shot that down. New Daemonhunters codex seems to focus heavily on GKs, and if even half of the rumors are to be believed, they are getting heavy buffs.

As far as Gauss weapons go, I imagine they will stay mostly the same. They could use a small buff to restore them to their 4th Ed. state where they could kill vehicles; it's quite hard for them to do so at the moment.

Anyone else here play an all-GK army? I picked one up off a friend because I love the models and am looking for some tips. Current 1500 list looks something like this:

Grand Master
-3x Land Raider
-3x ~7 man GK squad
-6 GK Terminators

I do love instant-killing stuff that is supposed to be immune to Instant Death with the Grand Master's force weapon; it is oh so satisfying to watch a Hive Tyrant or a Carnifex go down in one hit.

[Closet_Skeleton]

How does Feel No Pain stack up to a 3+ cover save?

Considering that a Priest is 50 points, I'd say quite well. Not only that, but you're taking the Priests anyway - seriously, you're daft if you don't.

50 points if he's walking (and has no power weapons or melta bombs, but I only ever take the later)

I think I posted this list, but I can't quite remember and don't think anyone commented. I actually own these models, so I'm not likely to change much, but I could in theory take off everyone's jump packs and maganitise them and buy vehicles.

1500:

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Librarian
jump pack, hand flamer, unleash rage, shield of sanguinius
135 points

Honour Guard
Jump packs, thunder hammer, 2 storm shields, company banner
250 points

Elites
Sanguinary Priest
bike, melta bombs
85 points

Troops
5 deathcompany
bolt guns
100 points
(yeah, they're there for fluff but I would ditch them for a competative game anyway)

10 assault marines
2 melta guns, sergeant with infernus pistol, power fist and melta bombs
255 points

10 assault marines
2 flamers, sergeant with hand flamer and power fist
235 points
(I built them to be differant to the melta unit but I'm thinking of going with 2 melta units since the flamers haven't really helped)

Tactical Squad
plasma gun, plasma cannon, sergeant with power fist and boltgun
210 points

Tactical Squad
plasma gun, lascannon, sergeant with power fist and storm bolter
218 points

1498 points

2000:

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Librarian
jump pack, hand flamer, unleash rage, shackle soul, epistolery
185 points

Honour Guard
Jump packs, thunder hammer, 2 storm shields, company banner
250 points

Elites
2 Sanguinary Priests
bike, melta bombs
170 points

Troops
5 deathcompany
bolt guns
100 points
(yeah, they're there for fluff but I would ditch them for a competative game anyway)

10 assault marines
2 melta guns, sergeant with infernus pistol, power fist and melta bombs
255 points

10 assault marines
2 flamers, sergeant with hand flamer and power fist
235 points
(I built them to be differant to the melta unit but I'm thinking of going with 2 melta units since the flamers haven't really helped)

Tactical Squad
plasma gun, plasma cannon, sergeant with power fist and boltgun
210 points

Tactical Squad
plasma gun, lascannon, sergeant with power fist and storm bolter
218 points

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad
4 missile launchers
130 points

Devastator Squad
4 missile launchers, full size
210 points
1973 points

I do love instant-killing stuff that is supposed to be immune to Instant Death with the Grand Master's force weapon; it is oh so satisfying to watch a Hive Tyrant or a Carnifex go down in one hit.

Niether of those is immune to instant death this edition. Nothing in the tyranid army is.