Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Cheesegear]

That's because it was. What else would I be referring to? I know better than to make a one-word point as some sort of argument.

Well, as I said, a Basilisk is one of the most over-rated Tanks in the game (partly as a carry-over from previous editions I suspect). It really wouldn't surprise me if it was a one-word argument for said vehicle, as I do know people who continue using it despite all evidence to the contrary that they should.

Most over-rated (i.e; 'good on paper') tanks in the game, IMO;

1. Land Raider Redeemer, tied with Vindicator
2. Leman Russ Executioner
3. Basilisk

Most under-rated ('bad on paper', fairly amazing when used properly, which it never is) are probably Whirlwinds.

[Renegade Paladin]

At any rate.

Anyway, since you directly criticise my writings, I suppose I'm the only one, really, qualified to reply.

You seem to take an awful lot of offense. I didn't mean to come off as confrontational. I'm skipping several parts of replying to this post, mainly because I have no wish to continue arguments I didn't intend to start. If I don't answer something you said, consider the point conceded.

Because of Overkill/Inefficiency. The only thing Pask does in a Vanquisher is make it better at what its already pretty damn good at doing (like He'Stan and Hammernators and/or Suicide Sternguard). As I've said in much later posts that don't get referenced, Pask works 'best' in an Exterminator, or Emperor forbid, a Punisher. Pask in a Punisher makes a Punisher worth taking.

I suppose. BS 3 in something without a blast means you're statistically outright wasting half your shots. That's why I was considering Pask in a Vanquisher to begin with. Were there some way to just get a veteran tank crew and get BS 4 without his special (for less points, of course) then I'd do that in a heartbeat, but there isn't. As for Pask in a Punisher... No, I wouldn't say that's worth it, because 230 points, minimum, for S5 AP - (even at 20 shots) doesn't seem an efficient use of points. Crack Shot doesn't do anything for the gun, since it isn't going to penetrate any armor worth a damn anyway and I'd imagine most MCs (I haven't read any codices that actually employ them, so I don't know for sure, but considering Chaplain Cassius has T6...) have a high enough Toughness to not really care about it even if the failed wounds are rerolled.

With no justification at all, I can see why I would just take your word for it.
Basilisk. Just, Basilisk. I know about the decline of TV Tropes too.

As addressed above, it was a spelling correction, not an assertion about the effectiveness of Basilisks.

"Just pay the extra 25 points for a Leman Russ Battle Tank. Or, about the same for Devil Dogs."

You're playing on a 6x4' table. The 72" from a Battle Tank is plenty, and comes on a Leman Russ chassis with Lumbering Behemoth and trip-Heavy Bolters and everything.

I thought you said the sponsons were overpriced. At any rate, I'm not disagreeing; the range is pure overkill outside Apocalypse. Even though our tables tend to be set up 8' on one of the sides rather than 6', that's still not enough to justify it. As I clearly said, the only reason I'd take one would be to joke about shelling the next game over.

There was no mistake. I simply left it out because its an implicit part of the rules that I expected people to understand. Could it use clarification? Yes. Is it too late to do anything about it? Sure is.

Second, due to the greatness that is Open-Topped AV10, most people tend to put their Ordnance Tanks out of LoS, leaving them to fire indirectly all the time.

Once you're starting to fire directly, you're doing something wrong. The enemy is too close.

Meh. Any artillery I field is having an enclosed crew compartment, full stop. Not sure I will until/unless I get into larger scale games than are currently played, though. (Biggest one at the local store so far was the finale to the last campaign, which was played out on 8'x8'; although artillery would have been thematically appropriate to shell the tight-packed enemy as they advanced on the fortress.)

Since I wrote that, I've been looking around and since...I don't know, around four or five months ago, some players have started to swear by Deathstrikes. For me, they're too unreliable. But, apparently that's not stopping anyone from taking them. Apparently when you get a bunch of them and they fire on the first turn (gambling is fun!), you can win on the first turn.

Then those people are cheating; a Deathstrike cannot fire on the first turn. Says it black and white, right at the top of the special rule for firing it.

You answered your own question.

Did I? Because while (not quite) another veteran squad (and even then only in high point games) would be handy, first I'd want to mount it up like the others, which is another [redacted due to GW not wanting anyone posting point costs] points (not to mention another $35), and the storm bolter and heavy stubber are, at least on paper, better than any anti-infantry weapon the veterans can carry.

Edit: Something else that should be said about the way I'm building my lists, in case anyone cares. The local independent games shop just started carrying 40k and hosting games a couple of months ago. ALL of the players are new, nobody except me has sprung for a large amount of vehicles yet (I got my infantry used on the cheap, so I could afford to spend my money on other aspects of the army), and consequently there's a lot of all-infantry lists around the local game scene, at least for the moment. You said the Exterminator is a trap, but before reading that I was considering one for the reason that it's (at least apparently) able to quickly mow down infantry (and more likely to hit, because twin-linked). In light of the fact that I'm not facing a lot of tanks, is it still a trap? (And yes, I'm aware that a pair of Hydras outguns its main armament for the same points, but they're much less survivable.)

Well, as I said, a Basilisk is one of the most over-rated Tanks in the game (partly as a carry-over from previous editions I suspect). It really wouldn't surprise me if it was a one-word argument for said vehicle, as I do know people who continue using it despite all evidence to the contrary that they should.

Most over-rated (i.e; 'good on paper') tanks in the game, IMO;

1. Land Raider Redeemer, tied with Vindicator
2. Leman Russ Executioner
3. Basilisk

Most under-rated ('bad on paper', fairly amazing when used properly, which it never is) are probably Whirlwinds.

No argument from me. I like the model better (given an enclosed crew compartment, it looks very much like a modern M109A6 Paladin self-propelled gun), but despite the apparent confusion, I don't contend that they're some sort of super-unit.

[Klose_the_Sith]

...I tried. But, that White Scars base-army that you told me to run with just wasn't impressive enough. I'll post a Battle Report sometime soon. Maybe tomorrow if I'm not already playing another game.

?

The White Scars army that I told you to run with? When have I ever been brave (or sure of myself) enough to give you advice?

Most over-rated (i.e; 'good on paper') tanks in the game, IMO;

1. Land Raider Redeemer, tied with Vindicator
2. Leman Russ Executioner
3. Basilisk

Woo! There's that tank that I use lots at number 1

(Although, really. I like tanks being used as tanks and I find Preds boring - what was I meant to take? )

Most under-rated ('bad on paper', fairly amazing when used properly, which it never is) are probably Whirlwinds.

To which effect? Multiple Whirlwinds dropping multiple templates for multiple pinning checks on every template?

I can see that working as an infantry suppression tool, I guess. Problem is that they add nothing to my armour saturation and beyond tanks I'm only running two metal bawkses to begin with, so anti tank would start whittling my midfield apart.

[lord_khaine]

To which effect? Multiple Whirlwinds dropping multiple templates for multiple pinning checks on every template?

I heard something about the FAQ (or erata) saying a unit will only be required to take singel pinning check each round, no matter how many times it got shot at.

[Zorg]

Incorrect, a Whirlwinds are only one per unit:

Q: How many Pinning tests can a squad firing multiple
Pinning weapons cause on the enemy it is shooting? (p31)
A: Each unit can only cause a maximum of one Pinning
test on each enemy unit wounded, per turn, regardless of
the number of wounds caused, unless specifically stated
otherwise.

Checking the FAQ isn't that hard.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Bought a box of Hellions, so I can mix things up and play 1000 points without Lelith.

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HQ
Archon
Clone field, agoniser, combat drugs, ghostplate armour, phantasm grenade launcher
145 points

Elites
4 Incubi
Klaivex with onslaught, demiklaives and bloodstone, venom with dual splinter cannons and nightshields
228 points

Troops
10 Wyches
Hydra gauntlets, shardnet and impaler, haywire grenades, Hekatrix with agoniser, blast pistol and phantasm grenade launcher, raider with nightshields and chain snares
260 points

10 Kabalite Warriors
blaster, splinter cannon, sybarite with venom blade, raider with nightshields, flicker-field
200 points

Fast Attack
3 Beastmasters, 2 Clawed Fiends, 4 Khymera
164 points

The beastmasters would probably do better with a portal but I'm not going to take one just for one unit.

[crazedloon]

I don't see the hellions in that list

run the portal as the hellions, beastmasters and incubi will be thankful for the boost in speed via a closer board edge

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't see the hellions in that list

I said I bought a box of Hellions, not that I made them into Hellions or put Hellions in the list

run the portal as the hellions, beastmasters and incubi will be thankful for the boost in speed via a closer board edge

The Incubi have a transport already.

I could split the beastmasters up, I'm just not sure that majority T5 is enough to protect the Clawed Fiend's Beastmasters as the moment they suffer 4 AP 5 or better wounds both leadership 8 models will die (also taking away their ability to benefit from pain tokens if the common interpretation of the rules is correct).

But I'm really not sure if beastmasters without a portal is even vaguely viable.

Then again, the idea of beastmasters leading hordes of monsters out of a rip in space is pretty darn awesome.
I guess I'll have to test it.

[lord_khaine]

Checking the FAQ isn't that hard.

No, but it is a lot faster to just ask in here, when you dont know its exact location

[Cheesegear]

To which effect? Multiple Whirlwinds dropping multiple templates for multiple pinning checks on every template?

Trip-Whirlwinds can do that. But, the problem with taking more than just one or two Whirlwinds is the distinct lack of Predators or Devastators.

[Renegade Paladin]

Incorrect, a Whirlwinds are only one per unit:

Q: How many Pinning tests can a squad firing multiple
Pinning weapons cause on the enemy it is shooting? (p31)
A: Each unit can only cause a maximum of one Pinning
test on each enemy unit wounded, per turn, regardless of
the number of wounds caused, unless specifically stated
otherwise.

Checking the FAQ isn't that hard.

So what you're saying is that multiple sniper weapons in a unit is useless, contrary to what I was told last thread?

[Penguinizer]

Which of these armylists would be better? I'm very curious.

Armored Deathstar (Or two, depending on how the opponent deploys).

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HQ: Primaris Psyker: 70

Troops:
Veteran Squad, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185
Veteran Squad, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185

HS:
2x Leman Russ with HB Sponsons: 340
2x Leman Russ with HB Sponsons: 340
2x Leman Russ Demolisher with HB Sponsons: 370

The Deathstar comes from the fact that the plan is to deploy the chimeras so they're side to side, then put all the tanks around the Chimeras to form a big cube of turrets and death. It can also deploy it so that two Leman Russes shield one Chimera each, and the Demolishers can move freely.


More traditional mech with Sentinels.

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HQ: Primaris Psyker

Troops:
Veteran Squad, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185
Veteran Squad, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185
Veteran Squad, Harker, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 240

Fast Attack:
3x Scout Sentinel, Autocannons, Camo Netting
3x Scout Sentinel, Autocannons, Camo Netting

HS:
Leman Russ Demolisher, HB Sponsons: 185
Leman Russ Demolisher, HB Sponsons: 185
Leman Russ Demolisher, HB Sponsons: 185

The sentinels scout into cover and shoot at enemy light vehicles, solos and infantry units.

Both are for 1500 points.

[Cheesegear]

So what you're saying is that multiple sniper weapons in a unit is useless, contrary to what I was told last thread?

No. That's not what its saying at all. And its specifically why multiple Sniper units are so good.

A unit takes one Pinning check per unit it gets shot by.

Read the question again...How many times can one squad with multiple Pinning weapons cause Pinning checks? Answer; Once per unit shot at.

You can take one Pinning check per turn, per unit that shoots - and wounds - you.

[lord_khaine]

So what you're saying is that multiple sniper weapons in a unit is useless, contrary to what I was told last thread?

Nahh, you need on average around 8 Sniper shots to inflict even 1 casulty and force the pinning check.

btw Cheesegear?

We got startet on discussing the use of space marine scouts in my local club, do you have a quick link to the scout army you were forced to rewrite in that tournament?

[Cheesegear]

We got startet on discussing the use of space marine scouts in my local club, do you have a quick link to the scout army you were forced to rewrite in that tournament?

No, but I can write it in my sleep.

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Lysander - 200 points

Sternguard (x10) - 345 Points
x8 Combi-Meltas, x2 Heavy Flamers
+ Drop Pod

Scouts (x10) - 155 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
Sergeant: Melta Bombs

Scouts (x10) - 150 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

Scouts (x10) - 150 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

Scouts (x10) - 150 Points
Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher

Devastators (x5) - 150 Points
x4 Missile Launchers

Devastators (x5) - 150 Points
x4 Missile Launchers

Devastators (x5) - 150 Points
x4 Missile Launchers

Total: 1750 Points

Only thing you've got to watch out for is Tyranid armies with multiple units of Ymgarl Genestealers, and multiple Land Raiders.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I heard something about the FAQ (or erata) saying a unit will only be required to take singel pinning check each round, no matter how many times it got shot at.

I meant spreading a template so it hits 2-3 units, forcing 2-3 pinning checks per whirlwind - and a unit will be forced to take multiple pinning checks each round if hit by multiple different other units. Each unit can only force any other given unit to take a single pinning check, but the guys being shot up can be forced to take multiple checks from multiple sources.

Nahh, you need on average around 8 Sniper shots to inflict even 1 casulty and force the pinning check.

It's an unsaved wound though, not casualty (this gets relevant with Nobz et al) and 5 rifles still have a decent chance of causing unsaved wounds. Even if they're only spitting out 1-2, plenty of squads can get doomed by that.

Plus rending (I think?).

EDIT:

Trip-Whirlwinds can do that. But, the problem with taking more than just one or two Whirlwinds is the distinct lack of Predators or Devastators.

Compensate with melty bike squads, Land Speeders and/or tank cracking Dreadnoughts?

[Cheesegear]

I meant spreading a template so it hits 2-3 units, forcing 2-3 pinning checks per whirlwind - and a unit will be forced to take multiple pinning checks each round if hit by multiple different other units.

My favourite, is when bastard Tyranid or Imperial Guard players 'weave' their units. F* that. It's Whirlwind time. Start dropping Blast weapons that ignore Cover saves and get five hits on each weaved unit.

[Closet_Skeleton]

My favourite, is when bastard Tyranid or Imperial Guard players 'weave' their units. F* that. It's Whirlwind time. Start dropping Blast weapons that ignore Cover saves and get five hits on each weaved unit.

Its actually been FAQed now that if two units are mixed together, the one closest to the shooter doesn't get a cover save.

[Klose_the_Sith]

My favourite, is when bastard Tyranid or Imperial Guard players 'weave' their units. F* that. It's Whirlwind time. Start dropping Blast weapons that ignore Cover saves and get five hits on each weaved unit.

My problem with Whirlwinds is that they aren't terribly effective against MEQ's, cause they're ordnance that still allows armour saves. They're a decent enough counter at cheaper foot-hordes, but I just dunno about their power armour cracking capability.

Of course I suppose I could run 2x Vindicators, 1x Whirlwind and (assuming the smoke launchers don't fail me) devour 2-3 squads on turn 2 ...

[Ninja Chocobo]

No. That's not what its saying at all. And its specifically why multiple Sniper units are so good.

A unit takes one Pinning check per unit it gets shot by.

Read the question again...How many times can one squad with multiple Pinning weapons cause Pinning checks? Answer; Once per unit shot at.

You can take one Pinning check per turn, per unit that shoots - and wounds - you.

No, you read the question again. He was asking if having more than one Pinning weapon inside each unit was bad.

Which it isn't; you need a few of them to make sure you're actually wounding them.

[lord_khaine]

No, but I can write it in my sleep.

Thanks, this should help if we resume the scout discussion next thursday.

It's an unsaved wound though, not casualty (this gets relevant with Nobz et al) and 5 rifles still have a decent chance of causing unsaved wounds. Even if they're only spitting out 1-2, plenty of squads can get doomed by that.

Plus rending (I think?).

But that was assuming a cover save of 4+, rending wont matter.

[Klose_the_Sith]

But that was assuming a cover save of 4+, rending wont matter.

Well Rending is actually less likely than them just buggering their save anyway

... And then I started rolling dice for funzies / pesudo sciencey testings and got incredibly distracted

[Closet_Skeleton]

Is the hurricain bolter on an Ironclad ever a good option? I suppose it can be combined with a heavy flamer on the chainfist/hammer for some anti-infantry power but then you'd probably be better with 2 heavy flamers and DCCWs.

Would you ever take a "Dakka-clad"?

[Mr Chief]

Hey, Im going to a specialist tournament for kill team, and wanted some input on my list. Basically the games are small scale (300 pts) objective games, everyone is their own squad, but you still have to but people as squads. Three people in your army get a universal special rule, and one get +1 to any stat. My list:

Painboy Field Commander +1 T, Stealth Specialist
Cybork body

Nob biker Preferred enemy specialist
Power claw
Shoota/skorcha kombi-weapon
Cybork body

Nob biker Swarm specialist
Waaagh! Banner
Big choppa
Shoota/scorcha kombi-weapon
Cybork body

18 grechin
Runtherd

[Renegade Paladin]

Hey, Im going to a specialist tournament for kill team, and wanted some input on my list. Basically the games are small scale (300 pts) objective games, everyone is their own squad, but you still have to but people as squads. Three people in your army get a universal special rule, and one get +1 to any stat. My list:

Just to point this out, since you seem to have done it:

Do not, ever show individual points costs for options and Wargear. It's one of the very, very few things GW doesn't let people talk about. So, just don't do it. On other forums (where the mods are 40K-savvy), posters have been banned, and whole websites have been suspended or shut down for showing Wargear Costs. Yeah. That's all it takes. Just write that you have the Wargear. Nothing else. Don't write points.

Not that anyone with a functioning brain or a calculator couldn't figure out wargear points by simply looking at different unit configurations and doing some math, but y'know, how GW runs their show is how GW runs their show. In short:

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*Shrug*

[Zorg]

Just to point out, from GW's What's New:

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And, lol, he messed up and didn't include the Helliarch so his list is over points.

[Dark Faun]

Speaking of "what's new," Blood Angels will get reinforcements in February.

You know, because they didn't have enough models already.

[evisiron]

Battle Report: Orks vs Chaos Space Marines

In prep for the December tournament, a friend (who is also entering) and I tested our lists against one another. Our battles are always pretty close victory wise and extremely bloody, so I was looking forward to it.

The lists are 1500 with no special characters.

My list:

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HQ
Big Mek
Kustom Force Field
Grot oiler

Warboss
Mega Armor
Attack squig
Cybork body
Bosspole


Troops

19x slugga boys
+Nob
+Power Klaw
+Boss Pole
Mounted in…
Battlewagon
-2 Big shootas
-armour plates
-Red paint job
-deffrolla


19x slugga boys
+Nob
+Power Klaw
+Boss Pole
Mounted in…
Battlewagon
-2 Big shootas
-armour plates
-Red paint job
-deffrolla



5 Mega Armoured Nobz
2x Komnbi skorcha
Kombi Rokkit
Mounted in…
Dedicated battlewagon
-2 Big shootas
-armour plates
-Red paint job
-deffrolla

12 Shoota Boyz
-Big Shoota
-Nob
--Power Klaw
--Bosspole
Mounted in…
Trukk
-Reinforced Ram
-Armour plates

Elite

9 Lootas

Fast Attack

Warbuggy
Skorcha


Heavy Support

Grot Artillery
3 Kannons
3x ammo runts


Total: 1499

His chaos list (roughly):

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Daemon Prince
-Lash

Daemon Prince
-Lash

7x Plague marines
2x Flamers
In a rhino with extra armour.

7x Plague marines
2x Plasma guns
In a rhino with extra armour.

7x Plague marines
2x Meltas
In a rhino with extra armour.

Vindicator
-Daemonic possession

Vindicator
-Daemonic possession

2x Obliterators

Mission: We went for the opening mission of the tournament, a pitched battle with 5 objectives in a + formation through the board.

The board is pretty terrain heavy, especially considering that its practice for a tournament. It is only 25%, but many small pieces scattered fairly consistently.

He wins the roll off but allows me to pick and deploy first. I take the side with large blocks of impassable buildings to make sure he cant hide behind them later. It limits my options to a central battlewagon deployment, and I set the grot artillery on one side, the lootas on the other. Boss is with the nobs in the loota side battlewagon, the Mek rides with the boys in the centre and the far right is just boys. Trukk stays in reserve.

He sets up with both demon princes on the loota side flank with the flamer plague marines, while a line of rhino, vindicator, rhino, vindicator, rhino sets up in the centre, making use of the cover.

Then he manages to seize the initiative. *sigh* Bloody marines and their thousands of years of war based experience...

So, marines are first up to bat. The flamer rhino and a prince move up the flank slightly, but they seem to be hunkering in. His army reshuffles slightly while rhinos pop smoke. His vindicators are out if range, though the obliterators shoot across the board and achieve little.

Orks turn! They sit and shout a few chants ("What da we want? WAAAGH! When da we want it? WAAAGH!") to get them going, refusing to move until they can run like mad in the second turn. The lootas peg at the first daemon prince, taking 2 wounds from him, little else is effective.

Chaos turn 2. *Shuffle, shuffle, fire!* A vindicator round hits true and melts the front wheels of Da Bosses battlewagon. The Kustom Spinnin' Rims are ruined. The prince drags the lootas into a tear drop shaped huddle in front of Flamer Rhino. One quick BBQ later and the lootas are but dust in the wind.

Ork Turn 2. The mek hops out to fix da bosses wagon, everyone else rolls straight up, unleashes Da WAAAGH! and charges the vindicators and obliterators. Both vindicators are reduced to husks through an immobilised and weapon destroyed each (haha, weep in frustration, daemon bound inside a useless tank). The obliterators refuse to die.

Chaos and Ork 3: The plague marines roll around shooting things from their rhino until battlewagons run them over. Da boss and his meganobs roar up, hop out and jump a unit of plague marines, wiping them out in one combat. Plague marines jump in to assist the obliterators in combat. The boys in the centre are whittled down and charged.

Chaos and Ork 4: The daemon prince laughs as he lashes the warboss and meganobs are the way back to the front of the trukk, blocking it in. Warboss and Friends promptly hijack said trukk, and drive back to the objective. 2 of the 3 battlewagons get blown away. The plague marines fighting the orks along side the obliterators finish the unit off with a handful of marines left. Some grot artillery and an ambush from the skorcha buggy bring their number to 2. The marines on the flank kill the last few orks and head towards the objective.

Chaos and Ork turn 5: A daemon prince pounces the shoota boys evicted from their Trukk and rips them to pieces before running them down. The warboss drives flat out to arrive at the uncontested 'home' objective as the marines on that flank are flattened by a battlewagon and grot artillery fire. The final 2 plague marines hop in a rhino and park on their 'home' objective. At this point each side only has 1 troop unit still on the table.

We roll for another turn, and its a 2. Game over.

Result: 1 objective each, Draw.

PS: I am still getting used to a mech type list. An suggestion to the list itself or my tactica are greatly appreciated.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Speaking of "what's new," Blood Angels will get reinforcements in February.

You know, because they didn't have enough models already.

They don't have their dreadnought in plastic (I had to convert one of mine and buy a forgeworld model for the other) or their flyer. In fact they only have 1 more plastic kit than SW and DA and 1 less battle force.

Anyway, every new BA kit is a delay on plastic thunderwolf cavalry. Which is good as long as you don't play space wolves.

[Dark Faun]

There might be the Stormraven too. There's been all this talk about 2011 being the year of fliers.

Also, you can make thunderwolf cavalry; it's called plastic bloodcrushers.