Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Cheesegear]

Maybe it's all the 3++ I've been reading, but I'm not sold on comp. Not that I ever really was, though. I read through the local TO's notes and just thought about how truly broken his system was.

Err...This is one of the particular topics I hate. Almost as much as I hate discussions on statistics, but, Klose, I like to think I know the regular posters of the 40K-thread quite well...

You've said on more than one occasion that you'd like to make a Themed Army, and, at other times, you've come out and said that you like playing 'challenging' armies that don't exactly fit the mold of the meta-game.

I've also seen from a few of your posts that you might not have mountains of disposable income, or maybe, you're like me, in that even if you do have mountains of income, you don't like to spend on things you don't have to...

Anyway...Comp Scores are for people like you! Or, rather, Comp Scores don't negatively affect a player like you* in any way. Why do you rail against a system that benefits you?

If you go 5-0 at a tournament, that's amazing. If your buddy next to you goes 5-0, but also has 17 Thunderwolves in his army; Who is the better general? You, for winning with [what you've got/what you can afford, or What You Like], or someone who net-listed like all get-out and just has the most broken things possible?

If you want to play 'Ard Boyz, where there are no Comp Scores, and all armies are the exact same four or five lists and winning is determined by dice rolls (chance) rather than by strategy and list-building, then, great. Money talks, newbs walk. I wish you all the best because you'll never see me at any of those events.

But, I get the feeling you don't want to play 'Ard Boyz, and you like having fun lists, and having fun while playing the game...In which case you shouldn't be knocking Comp Scores. Comp Scores only affect the top-tier players negatively, for everyone else, Comp Score is 'free points' - you shouldn't complain.

Unless you've drastically misrepresented yourself behind your posts. In which case all of this is moot. Keep hating on Comp Scores.

*Meant to be taken as a compliment; Players who play to have fun.


Everyone else;
I'll have my DE review up before the weekend. Probably a Battle Report too. Ultionis and Lysander team up to smash some Orks.

[Razaele]

Ultionis and Lysander team up to smash some Orks.

Ultionis AND Lysander? Now this I gotta see. *popcorn*

[Ninja Chocobo]

Well, I've decided to put together a new army for the 2011 Student Nationals in April, since I've been meaning to for a while and needed some motivation.

Hoooo boy this list is going to die horribly in kill points and probably won't do much better in objectives.
1. Painboy and Cyborks in your Nobs unit. At their size, with the Warboss, a Waaagh! Banner, Bosspole and Power Klaw probably isn't necessary. Still quite good items to have, though.
1a. Attack Squig on your Warboss. +1A at S10 is good.

2. Drop the Shoota Boyz squads. Take one 19-man squad and put it in a Battlewagon with a KFF Mek. Trukks are made of paper; you need something to protect them.
2a. But I still don't think armour plates and RPJs are worth it on them.

3. Bigbomms aren't good, and they make your already expensive unit even moreso.

4. If you're going to take Warbikers, take squads of five at least. With four, they only need to kill one to force a Ld test at Ld 7.

5. Put Rokkits on your Kans. You've got too much anti-infantry and not enough anti-vehicle. Most metagames are mech-heavy. Also take one squadron of three. Since you've 'only' got BS3, you won't really be wasting your shots.

Short of a complete overhaul, this is all I can think of. Good luck!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Alright, so I slept on it and came up with another list. I'm pretty happy with it, but I have a sinking feeling that it's not equipped to handle hordes.

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Librarian with Terminator Armor, Storm Shield [140]

Elites

Sternguard Veteran Squad with Combi-Meltas x10, Drop Pod [335]

Troops

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Tactical Space Marine Squad with Plasma Gun, Lascannon, Razorback with Twin-Linked Lascannon [265]

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Devastator Squad with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Whirlwind [85]

Total: 1920

I have no idea what I can do with the leftover points.

I'd appreciate any advice and suggestions!

Needs more power fists. Yes, on the units you don't want to get into combat.

Do you plan on combat squading the lascannons out and putting the plasma gunner and sergeant in the razorback? If not, I'd rather have landspeeders or attack bikes. Or even dreads, but they cost too much.

To be honest I find your list pretty dull and wouldn't use anything like it.

Where's the librarian going? The drop pod or babysitting the gun line? If you take away his terminator armour he might be safer in a razorback, he can still use null zone and his hood out of it, with actually increased range.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Err...This is one of the particular topics I hate. Almost as much as I hate discussions on statistics, but, Klose, I like to think I know the regular posters of the 40K-thread quite well...

You've said on more than one occasion that you'd like to make a Themed Army, and, at other times, you've come out and said that you like playing 'challenging' armies that don't exactly fit the mold of the meta-game.

I've also seen from a few of your posts that you might not have mountains of disposable income, or maybe, you're like me, in that even if you do have mountains of income, you don't like to spend on things you don't have to...

Anyway...Comp Scores are for people like you! Or, rather, Comp Scores don't negatively affect a player like you* in any way. Why do you rail against a system that benefits you?

If you go 5-0 at a tournament, that's amazing. If your buddy next to you goes 5-0, but also has 17 Thunderwolves in his army; Who is the better general? You, for winning with [what you've got/what you can afford, or What You Like], or someone who net-listed like all get-out and just has the most broken things possible?

If you want to play 'Ard Boyz, where there are no Comp Scores, and all armies are the exact same four or five lists and winning is determined by dice rolls (chance) rather than by strategy and list-building, then, great. Money talks, newbs walk. I wish you all the best because you'll never see me at any of those events.

But, I get the feeling you don't want to play 'Ard Boyz, and you like having fun lists, and having fun while playing the game...In which case you shouldn't be knocking Comp Scores. Comp Scores only affect the top-tier players negatively, for everyone else, Comp Score is 'free points' - you shouldn't complain.

Unless you've drastically misrepresented yourself behind your posts. In which case all of this is moot. Keep hating on Comp Scores.

*Meant to be taken as a compliment; Players who play to have fun.

Well, I'm not super competitive. Nor is a super competitive tournament really my thing. I'm just not sure that comp scores do the work they're supposed to do.

I'm going to be assembling squads I'll never use because, among other things, I'm building the complete 4th company of my homebrew chapter ... as well as support units/auxiliaries. I'm also starting Orks which mix piles of Slugga Boyz with Bad Moonz guns n support, which again I'm fluffing.

But I honestly don't have time to explain my position right now (plane tomorrow at 6:30 ). I just didn't want you to think that I was hiding behind a blanket of internet-denial. And yes, you do know your forumites ... more or less

EDIT: Oh and just to clarify something else.

Local comp system I thought was broken.

[Cheesegear]

I'm just not sure that comp scores do the work they're supposed to do.

At the top end, no. It doesn't actually do what its supposed to do. Sportsmanship and Painting, or, more likely, just Sportsmanship will take care of the top end.

Where Comp Scores help 'the most', is in the middle of the pack, where painting isn't too top notch, and win:loss ratios are pretty even.

Low end? No. Comp Scores wont help you. When you're running zero for five, not even a 'free' ten points is going to help you.

Local comp system I thought was broken.

The Comp Scoring there is retarded. No. This Composition Marking that you've described will definitely not do what its supposed to.

My Scouts list is amazing under that Comp System; I lose one point for having triple-Devatators (450 points, so under the 500 mark, although, knowing the system, I shrink it to two Devastators and a unit of Attack Bikes and get all my points), and, at worst, I lose three points for TO Discretion. Since if he takes away any more than that, I can cry about it since it's written down in the rules that he can't take away any more than that.

Apparently I get a Comp Score of 10 for one of the most broken lists I've ever written. Likewise with any other Codex that favors Troops over any other slot (Chaos Marines, Infantry Guard). When you start writing crap like this, you get some rampant bulls*. A TO Should Never Write Down How He Scores.

20/20 (10/10 is better/more even though) marks should be at the TO's discretion. He should be able to give you whatever he wants because not all Codecies are balanced. It's quite possible to take all-Troops and still have a fairly broken army. Imperial Guard loves this move.

Then you get to Peer Scoring. One man's Power Game is not the same as another's. For example, I think Mechanised is crap, but others don't. So when people see my Scout list, they're not that impressed. There shouldn't be any Peer Scoring at all. 'Revenge' scoring runs rampant that way too.

In short, there's crap Comp Scores and good Comp Scores. The one you've linked to is crap.


The Peer Scoring for Sportsmanship is all wrong too. Apparently the TO doesn't know that you can get your arse kicked by nice guys. When my Scouts Pin your whole army and you don't have a fun time, that's not really my fault, per se. And, if anything, that kind of thing should be graded against my Comp Score (according to this system) rather than my Sportsmanship.

[evisiron]

Spoiler

Show

HQ

Warboss 130
Warbike, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw

Troops

4 Nob Bikers 210
3x Kombi-skorcha and Big Choppa

12 Shoota Boyz 107
Trukk

12 Shoota Boyz 107
Trukk

12 Shoota Boyz 107
Trukk

12 Slugga Boyz 152
Nob: Power Klaw
Trukk: Armour Plates, Red Paint Job

12 Slugga Boyz 152
Nob: Power Klaw
Trukk: Armour Plates, Red Paint Job

Fast Attack

4 Warbikers 135
Nob: Power Klaw

4 Warbikers 135
Nob: Power Klaw

2 Deffkoptas 100
Bigbomm x2

Heavy Support

Killa Kan 40
Skorcha

2 Killa Kans 80
Skorchas

Killa Kan 45
Grotzooka

Total: 1500 Points.

I'm really surprised by how cheap Kombi-skorchas are. A oneshot Heavy Flamer looks ridiculously good to me, especially since you can still charge afterwards.

Most of what I would say has been mentioned by Ninja Chocobo. It kind of makes me cringe to see 1500 points with 18 kill points with the highest AV being 11 and best save is a 4+.

As with all lists, we have to ask "what's the plan?". You have manoeuvrability on your side, but not much else. Bar the warboss with the Nob bikers, there isn't a lot that's great in assault (and even the nob bikers aren't geared for that), and the shooting units don't have that much firepower.

Little notes:
-Read over everything Ninka Chocobo said again.
-Don't bother with skorchas on Killa Kans, its a waste of what little BS3 the Orks have. If you need anti infantry templates, go with grotzookas!
-Bundle the Kans together with the same weaponry to cut down on Kill Points available to your opponent.
-Always have a Nob with a power Klaw. Unless the unit is 'no frills' to act as a screen or objective holder, every mob will benefit from one of these. Also, when in units of 12, bosspoles are also a necessity.
-Beware Kombi skorchas. They are useful, but if you are going for an assault make sure the enemy can't lose enough models to get out of assault range.
-Shoota mobs really benefit from Big Shootas and they are pretty darn cheap.
-Take some grot artillery to fill the anti tank gap.

Most of all, make sure you go and play test it. See what gets ripped to shreds and what earns the glory and tweak accordingly.

[Razaele]

Needs more power fists. Yes, on the units you don't want to get into combat.

Why? Is that not a waste of points? I mean seriously, they're Tactical Space Marines. I have Combat Tactics for a reason. Plus most of the time I will be using Combat Squads. A squad of 5 Tactical Space Marines probably won't even last long enough against a dedicated Assault unit to do any decent damage with the Power Fist.

Do you plan on combat squading the lascannons out and putting the plasma gunner and sergeant in the razorback? If not, I'd rather have landspeeders or attack bikes. Or even dreads, but they cost too much.

Yes, I will be using Combat Squads. The reason why I took Razorbacks is because I wanted to have the option to transport my troops if the need arises, so yes I will be putting my Space Marine with a Plasma Gun along with his squad mates and the Sergeant in a Razorback should the need arise. As for the Landspeeders or Attack Bikes, I'm not so sure if they work with what I'm trying to do with my army. I do have 80 points left over though, so I think I'll invest in a Landspeeder to contest objetives during the last turn of the game.

To be honest I find your list pretty dull and wouldn't use anything like it.

There's no need to be rude.

Where's the librarian going? The drop pod or babysitting the gun line? If you take away his terminator armour he might be safer in a razorback, he can still use null zone and his hood out of it, with actually increased range.

Situational. I'm aware that I won't be able to put him in a Razorback, but I feel that the lack of a decent Invulnerable Save is just too painful. I could be wrong though. Is he not safer stashed in a squad of Space Marines in cover?

[Kzickas]

When it comes to flamers before charging, independent characters are your friends. Also seargents/exarchs/whathaveyou, but not as much

[Closet_Skeleton]

Why? Is that not a waste of points? I mean seriously, they're Tactical Space Marines. I have Combat Tactics for a reason. Plus most of the time I will be using Combat Squads. A squad of 5 Tactical Space Marines probably won't even last long enough against a dedicated Assault unit to do any decent damage with the Power Fist.

Combat tactics doesn't always work. It only has about a 55% chance to work against I4.

So far everyone in this thread who thought the same thing as you about power fists has changed their mind.

There's no need to be rude.

Your army is completely one dimensional apart from the rocket launcher devastators. All it can do is kill tanks. The only anti-infantry you have is a single whirlwind, which isn't reliable. Its an okay army if its fighting armies very similiar to itself, but against horded orks or genestealers its a bit substandard. Horded guardsmen just laugh (once the whirlwind is gone at any rate). Against non-mech marine equivilants it isn't too good either, they only need 4 anti-tank units to kill all your razorbacks before turn 3 and they aren't going to be diverting anything against that whirlwind.

Look at your sternguard for instance. They have 10 combi-meltas. I don't want to suggest just copying Cheesegear's lists, but he has 8 combi-meltas and 2 heavy flamers for a reason.

Situational. I'm aware that I won't be able to put him in a Razorback, but I feel that the lack of a decent Invulnerable Save is just too painful. I could be wrong though. Is he not safer stashed in a squad of Space Marines in cover?

Safer? Do you want to be safe or do you want to be killing stuff.

I use invulnerable saveless librarians as my compulsory Blood Angels HQ. Yes, he dies in 80% of games, but losing him has never lost me the game. Usually I've either already won or already lost by that point.

If your librarian is on the back lines he's reasonably safe for at least 3 turns if his unit has a unit on either side and doesn't need an invulnerable save. If he drops in with the Sternguard then the invulnerable save is only prolonging the inevitable. Which is sometimes necessary.

Your librarian only needs to survive as long as the enemy's pyskers. But you have nothing to assassinate them anyway.

The Comp Scoring there is retarded. No. This Composition Marking that you've described will definitely not do what its supposed to.

Funny, most of those rules actually enforce good list building rather than discouraging cheesy list building.

Spend 500 points on HQs?
Take less than 3 troops in 2000 points?
Take three of the same elites?

Why would you do those anyway?

I can't think of an army where its worth taking three of the same elites choices. Except maybe Grey Knights.

The BT army I'm intending to take next time I go to a tournament army doesn't loose a point.

My Blood Angels army doesn't loose a point.

My terrible Chaos Space Marines list looses 2 points.

Thankfully my pretty terrible tyranid army doesn't loose a point either.

[Incomp]

Nah, with Grey Knights you take two units of GKTs and an assassin. Because assassins are just that cool.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Nah, with Grey Knights you take two units of GKTs and an assassin. Because assassins are just that cool.

You can have a third unit of terminators as a retinue anyway.

[evisiron]

There's no need to be rude.

...and there is no need to take a comment like that personally. He is commenting on the list itself, nothing else.

By the way, current conundrum: Whether to keep my Grot Artillery in my Ork Battle Wagon list to hit anti-tank early in the game and accept that the wagons may cut off their LoS
or
Go for Killa Kans with the likes of grotzookas to add a bit of extra oomph to the charge in, knowing that they wont hit the enemy in combat until at least a turn after everyone else.

Thoughts?

[Ninja Chocobo]

Thoughts?

If you're dropping the Kannons, you need more Lootas. Alas, Kans are more expensive so you don't have the points.
Also: Ideally your Kannons would be in a building for 4+ cover and be able to see over the top of your wagons anyway.

As easily as a Deff Rolla can tear through 3 light transports in a single Movement phase, you're not always going to have the opportunity. Taking away their metal boxes is pretty necessary for an assaulting Ork force.

[Ricky S]

I have recently been invited to join in a cityfight tournament with a group of about 15 guys from my uni. It is 750pts and we each get to pick and use a stratagem although we can't swap it once the tourny has started.

My army list:
Captain, powersword - 115pts
Command Squad, Flamer x 2, Razorback 165pts

Dreadnought Multimelta, Heavy flamer - 115pts

Tactical Squad, Flamer, Heavy Bolter - 170pts
Tactical Squad, Plasma gun, Plasma cannon - 185pts

Total:750pts

I am planning on using the command squad to clear out enemies off objectives. The Dreadnought will do the same and possibly provide some anti tank depending on what people bring. I am not expecting anything above AV12 so the plasma should also be able to fill the anti tank role as well as anti heavy infantry. I will split my tactical squads into combat squads and keep the heavy weapon in my deployment to pour fire into the enemy while the special weapons guys advance on the objective which has hopefully been cleared by the dreadnought and command squad.

Any suggestions/tips? Does anyone knows of a good stragem to use because I have never played cityfight before?

[Cheesegear]

Any suggestions/tips? Does anyone knows of a good stragem to use because I have never played cityfight before?

First, make sure you know the rules. Cities of Death is a 4th Ed. sourcebook, and it shows. The most important rule that I can think of is that True Line of Sight doesn't apply. And moving in Ruins is dead-easy. At least, its not that difficult to move up and down levels anyway.

Which Stratagem you want to use is entirely up to you. However, you build around a Stratagem. You don't choose your army then pick a Stratagem that looks nice. You pick your Stratagem first, and work out how crazily broken you can make the rest of your army.

With only one Stratagem (alpha level missions?);
Fuel Dump
Medicae
Power Generator

In Cityfight, Master Snipers is broken. No. Broke. More than that. I'm serious. If you build your army around this Stratagem, you win.

For actual list-building though;
Template weapons are almost God-mode. As is anything that ignores Cover Saves (see; Master Snipers). Whirlwinds are your friend. If you're playing against stacked-Markerlight Tau army; You lose.

Get into Assault. The damage you do from shooting will be piss-weak. Even if you have Bolters. Cityfight favours short-range shooting (Template weapons), Skimmers and quick Assaulting.

If I was to rewrite your list, while still keeping the relative theme...

Spoiler

Show

Librarian - 100 points
Avenger, [whatever you want]

Sternguard (x5) - 190 Points
x2 Combi-Meltas, Heavy Flamer
Sergeant: Melta Bombs
+ Razorback

Tactical Squad (x10) - 230 Points
Flamer, Heavy Bolter
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad (x10) - 230 Points
Flamer, Heavy Bolter
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Rhino

Total: 750 Points

Alternatively, swap all Transport vehicles with Drop Pods.

Of course, this is your list how I see it. If I was making my own list, I'd be using Master Snipers and Sergeants with Combi-Flamers and Land Speeder Storms.

[Razaele]

Combat tactics doesn't always work. It only has about a 55% chance to work against I4.

So far everyone in this thread who thought the same thing as you about power fists has changed their mind.

Hmm. Well, I suppose I just haven't had enough experience with Power Fists spamming. I'll give it a try some time and see how it goes.

Your army is completely one dimensional apart from the rocket launcher devastators. All it can do is kill tanks. The only anti-infantry you have is a single whirlwind, which isn't reliable. Its an okay army if its fighting armies very similiar to itself, but against horded orks or genestealers its a bit substandard. Horded guardsmen just laugh (once the whirlwind is gone at any rate). Against non-mech marine equivilants it isn't too good either, they only need 4 anti-tank units to kill all your razorbacks before turn 3 and they aren't going to be diverting anything against that whirlwind.

Look at your sternguard for instance. They have 10 combi-meltas. I don't want to suggest just copying Cheesegear's lists, but he has 8 combi-meltas and 2 heavy flamers for a reason.

Well, I guess I just got a little paranoid from what my cousin pointed out to me about mech lists. Killing a vehicle is one thing, but killing 6 Razorbacks and 3 Baal Predators is just crazy. I feel a bit more secure when bringing a lot of things that can kill vehicles. That said, I do realize that I need more anti-infantry. I suppose I can drop a Devastator squad and replace it with an additional Whirlwind. Or maybe take a couple of Land Speeders with Heavy Flamers? An Ironclad with dual Heavy Flamers?

Safer? Do you want to be safe or do you want to be killing stuff.

I use invulnerable saveless librarians as my compulsory Blood Angels HQ. Yes, he dies in 80% of games, but losing him has never lost me the game. Usually I've either already won or already lost by that point.

If your librarian is on the back lines he's reasonably safe for at least 3 turns if his unit has a unit on either side and doesn't need an invulnerable save. If he drops in with the Sternguard then the invulnerable save is only prolonging the inevitable. Which is sometimes necessary.

Your librarian only needs to survive as long as the enemy's pyskers. But you have nothing to assassinate them anyway.

So what would you suggest I add in order to assassinate said enemy psykers?

...and there is no need to take a comment like that personally. He is commenting on the list itself, nothing else.

I guess I just felt a little insulted by the way the statement was said. I mean sure, it's quite far from being an incredible list, but I still gave it a lot of thought. But in any case, if I was just being over-sensitive, I apologize.

[Ricky S]

It will be played with 5th edition rules. So I dont have to worry about the line of sight thing. I wish I could take more flamers though .

[Cheesegear]

It will be played with 5th edition rules. So I dont have to worry about the line of sight thing. I wish I could take more flamers though .

Irrelevant. The 4th Ed. rules are written into the book. When you're playing Cityfight, you're playing by those rules. Otherwise you're not playing Cityfight. Cityfight turns to crap under 5th Ed. rules.

One of the reasons is because cover is nowhere near as good in 5th as it is in Cityfight/4th, because 4th doesn't have TLoS, and moving in Ruins (i.e; What you'll be doing All. The. Time) is a bitch unless you play under Cityfight rules, etc.

Cities of Death is a new Sourcebook. Much like Planetstrike. The rules are different to the regular game. And that's a good thing. Beucase it if worked under the regular rules it'd be a PoS.

[Closet_Skeleton]

That said, I do realize that I need more anti-infantry. I suppose I can drop a Devastator squad and replace it with an additional Whirlwind. Or maybe take a couple of Land Speeders with Heavy Flamers? An Ironclad with dual Heavy Flamers?

No, keep the devastators. They're dual-role. Maybe go plasma/las on some of your razorbacks rather than twin las.

So what would you suggest I add in order to assassinate said enemy psykers?

Power fists help, for one thing. You can really only kill independant characters in melee unless you can template hit the entire unit and not roll a single 1.

[Fcannon]

Everyone seen the Eldar Hornet? It basically negates the Vyper entirely if it's allowed; 10 pts more for better F/S armor, closed top, better weapon options, Scouts, and free Star Engines.

[Erloas]

Its a pretty cool model, but its either under-costed or the vyper is over-costed. Of course the vyper isn't all that amazing for its points. Its nice that it doesn't TL the weapons when you pick two of the same. Although by the time you pick up the two required weapons, and the fact that none of them are defensive, its probably actually a bit expensive for what it does in practical terms.

[Psychotic]

I actually like the fact that the Hornet doesn't Twin-Link its dual weapons. I would most rather take 8 scatter laser shots rather than 4 twin-link'd ones. Keep the thing cheap though, getting dual Pulse Lasers at BS3 is kinda meh for the cost and the fragile nature of the Hornet. Armor 11 vs Armor 10 doesn't do a whole lot for survivability. Dedicated anti-armor weapons will still penetrate. The fact that its not open topped is the real saving grace.

But yeah, if this thing becomes legal, it will phase out the Vyper (which, in all fairness, is crap).

On the upside, it looks sweet. Almost like a futuristic flying lobster from its topside profile.

[Winterwind]

Actually, Armour 11 vs. Armour 10 is probably the biggest jump in survivability there is, because it makes all the difference whether S4 weapons (i.e., the most common ones in the game) are capable of glancing you or not. With A11 non-open-topped vs. A10 open-topped, it even makes the difference whether S4 weapons can destroy you or not.

You know, I think I'd actually just go with dual Shuriken Cannons on this one. Keeps it superbly cheap, yet still decently effective. And, yeah, far better than the Vyper.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Vyper is pretty bad. The Venom also surpaces it completely (unless you want anti-tank) and is a designated transport.

I remember the days when they were called "Vyper Jetbikes", and could hide behind cover but pop up to shoot. I used to hate them so much. Even in 4th edition they were almost unkillable.

Played an eldar noobie at 1000 points with my dark eldar (list posted previously).

He had

Farseer
Guardians with warlock, starcannon and waveserpent with shurikan cannons.
Warwalker
Wraithlord
6 striking scorpions
5 dire avengers.
3 jetbikes

It was the small squad sizes on the aspect warriors that mostly screwed him over.

I stole the initiative and got +1 attack from my drugs.

My beastmasters somehow managed to first turn charge the jetbikes, killing 2.
The incubi first turn charged the striking scorpions, killing 3 with the bloodstone, 2 more with archon Ysabiel and the klaivex and then the exarch failed to to wound with his chainsword before the regular incubi killed him.

The wyches got out of their boat expecting to charge the scorpions, but the incubi were enough so they got stuck out in the open.

The wyche's raider killed the war walker with its dark lance.

On his turn he killed the warrior's raider with the wraithlord.

Doom from the farseer and the waveserpant's cannons killed 2 incubi, the S6 taking away their feel no pain.

Bladestorm and fortune killed 8 wyches.

In the combat phase the beastmasters wiped out the bikers.

My turn 2.

The 2 remaining wyches jumped in the venom.

The beastmasters assaulted the dire avengers, cutting them down to 1 who broke and escaped.

The incubi and Ysabiel charged the farseer and took him down to 1 wound.

The venom took a wound off the wraithlord.

The warriors shot the wraithlord to bits.

His turn

The waveserpant shot down the venom.

The guardians killed 4 warriors.

Ysabiel kills the farseer.

Then we ran out of time and ended the game. I had 5 kill points, he had 2.

The wyche's sucked this game, due to not getting into combat. The stat advantage that dark eldar have over normal eldar helped a lot. Nothing the eldar have can really stand up to an archon, but on the other-hand the agoniser is kind of a waste of points (it wouldnt' be against the wraithlord, but I shot that to bits). With a clonefield there's pretty much nothing an eldar character can do to an archon.

Guardians actually had a shooting advantage against my warriors, but thankfully I had feel no pain from killing the wraithlord. Not sure if the warriors would have won that firefight if the game had continued but I had the beastmasters and incubi to move up against them.

S6 being pretty common does make feel no pain less useful on dark eldar compared to blood angels.

So currently

Incubi kill count:
1 unit of striking scorpions
Ysabiel's kill count: 1 farseer, 1 swarmlord.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could give me some comments on my Tau list. I'm not quite done with it yet, have some kinks to work out.

Shas'el: Burst cannon, flamer, multi-tracker, stimulant injector. 77 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

8 Pathfinders: Pulse carbines, Shas'ui, Bonding knife. 111 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, disruption pods. 95 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

All in all 1498 unles I'm mistaken.

But any advice would be appreciated.

[DaedalusMkV]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could give me some comments on my Tau list. I'm not quite done with it yet, have some kinks to work out.

Sure, I'll give it a shot.

Shas'el: Burst cannon, flamer, multi-tracker, stimulant injector. 77 p

My advice, if you haven't already done so, is to magnetize or otherwise set up your crisis suits to be able to swap weapons at will. You will never, ever regret it. Anyways, the primary role of a Crisis Suit, including Commanders, should be making up for whatever the rest of the army doesn't do, which in this case is being able to kill elite enemies. If possible, give the Cyclic Ion Blaster and Plasma Rifle a try; they'll synergize better with the rest of your army. Also, trade the Stims for a Targetting Array, to improve his striking power. FNP is okay, but not as good as it could be since it doesn't help against the best IC-killers. I'd also try to find the points for a Drone to follow him around and absorb those pesky Lascannon shots.

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

Standard mech-tau. That said, your Pathfinders, below, should never be in their transports. You want them shooting their Markerlights, after all. I'd reccomend dropping one of these Devilfish and using the extra one you get with the Pathfinders to ferry around the other squad. Also, drop the Target Locks, which don't do much of anything on Fish. This leaves you with 110 more points to spend, which allows you to make the above changes to the HQ and look at adding in a couple of Battlesuits or a Piranha.

8 Pathfinders: Pulse carbines, Shas'ui, Bonding knife. 111 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, disruption pods. 95 p

A large, expensive squad. I prefer teams of six; that seems to be about the right number of 'Lights to shoot at one target. Still, nothing wrong here.

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

All in all 1498 unles I'm mistaken.

But any advice would be appreciated.

Excellent, though annoyingly cookie-cutter.

Overall: Not bad, but very bland. No Elites is a major disappointment at this points level, since you really need those Crisis Suits to make up for the book's shortcomings in certain areas (your list will not have any fun at all against Nobs, Plague Marines or Blood Angels). More than that, the Hammerhead and identical-mounted-Fire Warrior spam is just boring, and your opponents might accuse you of being "cheesy", even if such a thing is nigh-impossible with the Tau codex. If these are the models you have, I'd say get some Crisis Suits ASAP, since your army really does need them. Otherwise, needs more Battlesuit.

[Ricky S]

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Hi

I was wondering if anyone could give me some comments on my Tau list. I'm not quite done with it yet, have some kinks to work out.

Shas'el: Burst cannon, flamer, multi-tracker, stimulant injector. 77 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

12 fire warriors: Pulse rifles, shas'ui, bonding knife. 135 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pod. 100 p

8 Pathfinders: Pulse carbines, Shas'ui, Bonding knife. 111 p
Devilfish: Multi-tracker, disruption pods. 95 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

Hammerhead: Railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, target lock, disruption pods. 170 p

All in all 1498 unles I'm mistaken.

But any advice would be appreciated.

Here is my current Tau 1500 point list. It is a hybrid list. Neither completely static or completely mobile. It does very well against pretty much everything and I have been having great success with it. If you want to create a mech tau list I suggest reading through this guys website http://warhammer-tau-army.blogspot.com/ He has made an interesting mech tau army that has done quite well in tournaments. I would advise against a static army because no matter how many guns you have the enemy will still be able to get to close combat and destroy you.

If you want to keep your commander alive I would suggest giving him twin-linked missile pods and a blacksun filter. That way he can jump in and out of cover to pop light tanks or kill infantry while keeping out of range of anything the enemy has.

I would recommend replacing a hammerhead with two broadsides for more accurate tank killing. While you do have 3 hammerheads they are actually better suited to killing infantry than killing tanks. A single shot hitting on 3+ is not as effective as a 4+ with re-roll. And for a mere 10 points each that can be improved to a 3+ with re-roll. This is fine at 1500 pts because you have 3 rail guns which is plenty for killing tanks. However at 2000+ points you will probably need some broadsides or quite a few fusion blasters. Or if you want to stick with your mech theme take a skyray. Actually I would recommend taking one now. With your pathfinders as well as the marker lights on your skyray it will be really effective. It could also sit out of sight firing smart missiles while your pathfinders mark targets for the seeker missiles. It would also provide some more variety to your list. Which as DaedalusMkV is pretty bland.

Ultimately the choice is yours to make. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa. So the most important thing to do is to take an army that you like. If you like the idea of having a mech list then go for it.

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HQ
Shas’El, Airbursting Fragmentation Projector, Plasma Rifle, Shield Generator, Hard Wired Multi Tracker - 115 pts

Bodyguard x 2, Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon, Multi Tracker - 136pts

Elites
Crisis Suits x 3, Twin Linked Flamers, Black sun Filter, Team Leader & Bonded - 112 pts

Crisis Suits x 3, Burst Cannon, Missile Pod, Multi Trackers, Team Leader & Bonded - 160 pts

Troops
Fire Warriors x 12, Shas’Ui, Bonded - 135pts
Fire Warriors x 12, Shas’Ui, Bonded - 135pts
Fire Warriors x 12, Shas’Ui, Bonded - 135pts

Devilfish, Smart Missile System, Disruption Pod, Multi Tracker, Decoy Launchers - 120 pts

Kroot x 14 – 98 pts

Heavy Support
Hammerhead Gunship, Burst Cannon, Rail Gun, Disruption Pod, Multi Tracker, Target Lock - 170 pts

Broadsides x 2, Team Leader and Bonded, Hard Wired Drone Controller, Shield Drone x 2, Black Sun Filter - 185pts

[Ninja Chocobo]

Crisis Suits x 3, Twin Linked Flamers, Black sun Filter, Team Leader & Bonded - 112 pts

Whaaaaaaat

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Thanks for the advice, this is my first go at a mech army and I really want it to be as mech as possible that's why I did'nt take any more suits.

But the advice on pathfinders and to skip one devilfish I'll take into consideration.

Spoiler

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Shas'el: Cyclic ion blaster, plasma rifle, targeting array, stim injector, 1 gun drone. 125 p

12 Fire warriors: Bonded 135 p
Devilfish: multi-tracker, disruption pods 95 p
Fire warriors: Bonded 135 p
Devilfish: multi-tracker, disruption pods 95 p
Fire warriors: Bonded 135 p

6 Pathfinders: Bonded 87 p
Devilfish: multi-traker, disruption pods 95 p

Piranha: fusion blaster, targeting array, disruption pods 80 p

Hammerhead: mult-tracker, target lock, disruption pods 170 p
Hammerhead: mult-tracker, target lock, disruption pods 170 p

2 Broadsides: trageting arrays, Shas'vre got hard-wired multi-tracker 175 p

Would this work better? The broadsides would now be my primary tank hunters while the hammerheads take out pretty much whatever I perceive as a threat. The commander is better equiped to handle elite infantry, but I'm not sure about the piranha.