Results 1,171 to 1,200 of 1501
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2012-08-21, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
- Join Date
- Aug 2012
- Location
- Spain, it's sunny
Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Awesome effort kanachi
Btw I think that the magical conduit could see a bit more work, atm it trades two good saves for spellcasting up to 5th level I would lower the BAB and probably reduce (by one) the number of doubles that it can draw so it is still attractive to play a vanilla conduit.
On the other hand, some PEACHing is due.
An impressive display... ~ Warlord Feludius
Originally Posted by Derjuin
Dark Vessel
Boldly you sought the power of flame. Now you shall witness it firsthand! ~ Firelord Magmus
Earth can be shaped, molded...you cannot! You are useless! Your kind has no place in my master's world. ~ Earthlord Obsidion
I really liked the fluff, set the tones right for the class Originally Posted by Derjuin
Wouldn't it be simple any nongood? Originally Posted by Derjuin
This class (up till now) strikes as a kind of gish using elemental mastery or a blaster in the lines of the warmage and vanilla warlock. If so d6 could be more apropiate. Originally Posted by Derjuin
Forgery? It is quite an specialized skill, I don't really know if it fits. Maybe they could benefit from intimidate, listen and spot. Originally Posted by Derjuin
No dead levels is good. Originally Posted by Derjuin
Saves look good, though I would rather see the class before judging on poor bab, essence bolt seems like something that could benefit from a 3/4 bab (and justify it) if it is balanced around the warlock's eldritch blast it might fit having 3/4 bab. On the other hand why do level 20 add an extra 1d6? It seemed to progress at odd numbers and suddenly an even one.
They can cast spells in medium armor? Out of the box? That might be a low level class feature Originally Posted by Derjuin
Nice ability and its nice to see different effects depending on the element chosen. Since fire damage is the most frequently resisted I would swap air and fire effects. Also you might want to try to give some scaling to water and earth. Originally Posted by Derjuin
Can he get elementals even in combat? Does this provoke AoO? Originally Posted by Derjuin
Awesome and simple to follow ability. I really like this one. Though one question does he get any benefit from doing this with high HD elementals? Can he do it with his "familiar" elemental without penalty? Originally Posted by Derjuin
I thought that he was able to bound elementals as frequently as he wanted, you might check the subsume elemental ability to make sure that once he has subsumed an elemental he cannot subsume another one until 24 hours pass. Originally Posted by Derjuin
I don't really see the Protection from Chaos/Evil/Law/Good fitting the theme. swift expeditious retreat or feather fall might be better air spells. Originally Posted by Derjuin
Fist of stone is another nice earth spell.
I think that a ball of lightning could fit more the air spell or lord of the sky (I love lord of the sky). Originally Posted by Derjuin
I miss the wall of stone on earth (the other elements already got their walls) and fire breath could be a nice fire spell (if you don't want to got summoning)
Great spells overall Originally Posted by Derjuin
You might want to add summon spells down the line, if you do so, do not only add the fire damage it is a bit sad that only fire elementals get love.
Do you mean transmutation? Originally Posted by Derjuin
Really cool ability and awesome. though it is a pity that they are only usable 3/day Originally Posted by Derjuin
[QUOTE=Derjuin;13686598]Elemental Path (Su): At 5th level, a Dark Vessel begins down the path to ascension. He must choose an elemental subtype (air, fire, water, or earth). He is able to influence naturally occurring elements of that type. By concentrating for 1 round, the Dark Vessel can crudely shape up to 5 cubic foot of loose earth, change the direction of a slow, shallow river, increase or decrease the speed of winds in the area by up to 10 feet, or snuff out or cause a fire to spread up to 20 feet away. In addition, he may use this ability to make a special ritual circle 10 feet in diameter which any Elemental suffers a -2 penalty on its saves against his Subsume Elemental and Dominate Elemental abilities.[quote]
Flavorful ability he can use all the elemental manipulations regardless of the subtype chosen, can't he?
Do the elementals get any bonus against the dark vessel? Originally Posted by Derjuin
Nice he can have more elemental pets Originally Posted by Derjuin
Wow really neat movement abilities and a good reason to have elementals with higher hd, now that I think about it, a familiar normally counts its master hd for purposes related to hd if the dark vessel subsumes its enslaved elemental does it still have the clause on the familiar for the HD? Originally Posted by Derjuin
I guess that this corrupting touch is not against the limited number of times that he can use corruption. Originally Posted by Derjuin
Nice ability to have when fighting elemental creatures, flavorful. Originally Posted by Derjuin
Nice ability the waiting time is a good way of balancing them. Originally Posted by Derjuin
If he uses the full round action to fire essence bolts (I would lower the number to three) what is the bab? Can creatures make use of evasion? Originally Posted by Derjuin
But planar tear gave bonuses why use it against the ones that would benefit from it? Originally Posted by Derjuin
I guess you can enslave elementals and then make them explode.
Cool ability and cool class, not overpowered.Working on: Anointed Heritor PEACHes are welcome.
Playing with: Firia & Cadaver
Awesome avatar by Strawberries
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2012-08-21, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)Troll in the Playground
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Man, you two sure do have time. Good job btw.
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2012-08-21, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Cambridge, UK
Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
You know i thought i had actually dropped the bab down already... my bad. Originally Posted by God Imperror
Awesome effort kanachi Btw I think that the magical conduit could see a bit more work, atm it trades two good saves for spellcasting up to 5th level I would lower the BAB and probably reduce (by one) the number of doubles that it can draw so it is still attractive to play a vanilla conduit.
I not really want to makes the class features different between the two classes so i think i may end up cutting it down to 4th level spells as a max instead. Do you think that would be enough to make the two classes stand on an even footing?
Peaching like a boss as well! Originally Posted by God Imperror
OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-21, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Cambridge, UK
Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Ok... so on to the next one...
The Skin Shifter
Either we playing a cockney tanner who wants to shift some leather or...
Spoiler
[QUOTE=GFawkes;13664477]Skin Shifter
Put an image of your class here!
Everyone is someone, and I'm everyone.
Skin Shifters are the best at blending. There are few situations that a Skin Shifter cannot find some application of their most basic ability: adapting to the situation. Need a Prince Charming for the ball? Or maybe an intimidating bodyguard? Or maybe just someone to cause the guards to be, ahem, otherwise occupied? A skin shifter can offer all, if the price is right.
... as i suspected.
Ok, so no image which is fine, you have plenty of time to find one.
The introduction also gives us an interesting insight into the class and its well writen.
Pre game rule information stuff...
Spoiler
Adventures: Skin Shifters may adventure for any reason, though the most common is to show off their ability. It's one thing to have your name down as a brave warrior; it's entirely different to also be a diplomat and an exiled royal in the same life.
Characteristics: All skin shifters are capable of altering their appearance to some degree. As they become more proficient in this, they can make greater changes that may even have no physical effect, but instead affect how their minds and souls are seen.
Alignment: While there are skin shifters of every alignment, they lean towards the more chaotic side. Most skin shifters are free spirited, changing their opinion of something about as often as they change their eye color. The most common alignment for a skin shifter is Chaotic Neutral, becoming less and less frequent the more steps you are away from there.
Religion: Olidammara is the most common deity for skin shifters, him being the god of trickery and all, though worshipers of Fhlarghan aren't unheard of due to the wandering nature of skin shifters.
Background: While all skin shifters are born with their abilities, there are a few factors that make each unique. Firstly, there is the source of the transformative ability. It could be that he was just born in the right place at the right time, or perhaps there's a doppelganger in his distant ancestry. Extraplanar beings may also have had some effect in causing a skin shifter's power. Then there's how those abilities manifest. They may develop into a form of lycanthropy, only have a small effect such as looking more like the neighbor than the father, or not appear at all until he is on his deathbed.
However, having power is much different than controlling it. Many skin shifters take time to first show signs of their ability, and will spend about as much time learning to control it. After all, it's embarrassing to be in the middle of wooing the elven queen when you suddenly change into a feral orc warrior.
Races: Humans are the most common race to show skin shifting, though it is by no means exclusive to them. Skin shifters can show up in any race native to the Prime Material plane. Skin shifters among the more savage races are more inclined to imitate animals and present a more feral look.
Other Classes: Skin shifters generally get along well with everyone. It's their job to do so. Other social classes, such as bards, beguilers, and certain rogues, get along extraordinarily well with skin shifters. Non-social rogues also get along well, though they don't see the risk of interacting with so many people to get somewhere you could easily break into. Divine casters that are tied to nature (druids, spirit shamans) both sympathize with and question skin shifters. They understand that there is more to life than one physical form, but often disapprove of how casually skin shifters alter their form. Paladins disapprove of skin shifters, seeing them as dishonorable tricksters. However, as with rogues, they will give an individual a chance to prove himself. Skin shifters have no special relations with any other class.
Role: Skin shifters make unparalleled infiltrators, being able to change their appearance on the fly. Some skin shifters focus more on combat, allowing them to fight long enough for assistance to arrive, while others lean to utilize their bodies, being able to be prepared for any situation.
Adaptation: The easiest way to adapt a skin shifter is to make them a master of disguise, though there are plenty of imaginative ways to fit them into a setting.
Pretty much as i suspected it would be, and you should not take that in a negative way. There is nothing wrong with what you have done here at all.
I would second what God Imperror said in his peach though. You should probably write a little bit about dopplegangers and changelings.
Game rule information...
Spoiler
GAME RULE INFORMATION
Skin shifters have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma helps a skin shifter do what he does best: blend in. As with any class that wears little armor, Dexterity is important. Constitution is important for more battle-oriented Skin Shifters, for both hitpoints and Concentration.
Alignment: Any, though they tend towards chaotic
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As bard.
Starting Gold: 4d4x10 gp.
Class Skills
The skin shifter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...
Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (All, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (NaN), Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier
Looks pretty solid, I would maybe consider Move Silently, search and Spot if your infultrating places these are pretty core skills. While its always possible to form a disguise to get entry to the barrons party, there generally comes the moment where you have to break away from the crowd and do the actual spy stuff unseen, regardless of your form.
Class Table...
Spoiler
Skin Shifter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Skinslip, Form Focus, Social Awareness
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Alternate Persona (1 minor identity), Resistive Body
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Genderslip, Shift Utility, Hide Alignment
4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Skinshift, Alternate Persona (2 minor identities)
5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Alternate Persona (2 minor identities, 1 medium identity), Shift Utility
6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Raceslip, Alternate Persona (3 minor identities, 1 medium identity)
7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Ageslip, Quickened Change (Standard Action), Shift Utility
8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Gendershift, Alternate Persona (4 minor identities, 1 medium identity, 1 major identity)
9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|Transmutive Body, Shift Utility
10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|Sizeslip, Alternate Persona (5 minor identities, 2 medium identities, 1 major identity)
11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|Ageshift, Quickened Change (Move Action), Shift Utility
12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Raceshift, Alternate Persona (6 minor identities, 2 medium identities, 1 major identity), Hide Thoughts
13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|Disguise Mastery, Shift Utility, Mask Alignment
14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|Alternate Persona (7 minor identities, 2 medium identities, 1 major identity)
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9|Alternate Persona (7 minor identities, 3 medium identities, 1 major identity), Quickened Change (Swift Action), Shift Utility
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Sizeshift, Alternate Persona (8 minor identities, 3 medium identities, 2 major identities)
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Disguise Perfection, Mask Thoughts, Shift Utility
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|Alternate Persona (9 minor identities, 3 medium identities, 2 major identities)
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|Quickened Change (Free Action), Shift Utility
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|Alternate Persona (10 minor identities, 4 medium identities, 2 major identities), True Identity[/table]
Nice plump levels with saves and bab as they should be. Everything looks good here.
Class features...
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
Spoiler
Skin shifters are proficient with all simple weapons, any natural weapons of the forms they take, and all light martial weapons. They are not proficient with any kind of armor, and tend to dislike wearing it.
Its hard to pass for a guard if your not wearing armour, but i can also see why you made this call.
Skinslip (Su):
SpoilerThis is the most basic ability of any skin shifter. A skin shifter can alter his appearance at will, with large limitations. He must remain the same race, gender, and age category, altering his appearance takes a full-round action, and it only affect his appearance, as disguise self. This quickly improves, however.
Useful for those who don’t have something better, but it’s an instant turn off if your a race like a changeling as it offers you something worse than what you already have for little benefit. Maybe consider throwing members of such races some kind of small boost.
Form Focus (Ex):
Spoiler
When you can be anyone, it's hard to remember what you look like in a mirror. Skin shifters must constantly concentrate to maintain a form. This is usually a DC 10 Concentration check when performing day to day activity. During combat, or other moments of high stress (Taking 10 not allowed), this doubles to a DC 20. If he takes damage, a skin shifter must automatically make a Concentration check of DC (Damage Taken/Skin Shifter level, round up). These checks are made automatically with no action required. If the skin shifter fails this Concentration check, he immediately reverts to his natural form and cannot use any slips, shifts, or Shift Utilities until he makes a successful Concentration check
wow so far your a poor mans changeling at best. I sort of understand what your doing here and it does add a lot of theme to the class, but i think in practice your hitting it with the nerf stick before its even learnt to walk.
Spoiler
Social Awareness (Ex): All skin shifters learn to blend in at a basic level by learning how to behave like everyone else. This has three effects:
A skin shifter may always Take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive
A skin shifter can make a Sense Motive check to get a gut assessment of the situation as a Move Action
A skin shifter gets a +4 on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive checks
This is actually some pretty heavy stuff and does make this class excellent for a 1 level dip if nothing else.
Alternate Persona (Ex):
Spoiler
When you change your identity on a nearly constant basis, it can help you stay sane by having an identity that you can retreat to. Starting at 2nd level, a skin shifter develops an alternate identity, and then realizes that one simply isn't enough. At every even level, he gains an additional minor identity. At 5th level, and every 5 levels after, he gains a medium identity. At 8th level and 16th level, he gains a major identity.
A minor identity is just that: someone he can call himself at the end of the day. These identities are usually inconsequential ones. Not necessarily low-class, but no one would notice if they disappeared for an extended period of time without explanation.
A medium identity is more important, and thus can learn more. While in a medium identity, a skin shifter gets a +4 bonus on Gather Information checks and a +2 on one Knowledge skill, chosen when the identity is made. The Knowledge boost is from some social connection or perhaps a library. Medium identities are roughly middle class: they can vanish for a day or two without warning, but any longer and people will at least have the thought cross their mind of where they are.
A major identity is a person of influence. They often have people that depend on them on a daily basis, and are in a much higher position of power. While in a major identity, a skin shifter gets a +10 to Gather Information, +4 on three Knowledge skills chosen when the identity is made, and can ask for a minor favor 1/week. The favor can have a gp value of no more than 100 gp. Any request that is either out of the ordinary for the identity (such as a wealthy tailor asking how crops are growing) or overly suspicious (such as asking guards to not be around a certain area for an hour) allows the target a Sense Motive check against the skin shifter's Bluff check. Major identities are almost always high class. If they disappear without announcing plans to travel, there will be investigation.
Creating an identity takes 1 week plus -1d4 days for a minor ID, 1d6 days for a medium ID, and 2d4 days for a major ID. This consists of focusing on the new form, committing it to memory, separating thoughts that belong exclusively to it, and making the identity known.
It is possible to retire an identity, though each one is different. Most minor identities can simply just disappear with no effort. Medium identities require 1d4+2 days of effort to come up with an explanation and spread it around. Major identities require either a drastic spontaneous event (making a fake murder) or 1d4-1 months of effort, minimum 1 month.
To be honest this is the kind of thing I would normally want my players to roleplay out and would give them appropriate bonuses for as we went along.
However, this is a pretty cool and fun way of applying rules to such things. I like the way you have kept it all pretty simple but added a degree of depth and plenty of room for customisation by the player.
Its a very flavoursome ability, perfect for the class.
Resistive Body (Ex):
Spoiler
A skin shifter's body reacts differently to transmutations than most people's. When a skin shifter is the target of a transmutation spell, it acts as if it were cast (1/2 Class Level) levels lower, due to his body resisting change that it has not chosen to make.
can they turn this ability off? this could suck pretty bad if not.
Genderslip (Su):
Spoiler
As skin shifters are constantly learning to shift further from their original form, one of the earliest tricks is gender alteration. He can now appear to be either male or female, though this is also appearance only, as per disguise self, and he still takes a penalty for disguising as the opposite gender.
Just to clarify something, is the Skin Shifter changing shape physically or simply using an illusion to give the appearance that they are?
Depending which route you take your flavour will change quite a bit.
Shift Utility (Ex):
SpoilerAt level 3, and every 2 levels thereafter, a skin shifter learns a new trick for his transforming. He can only pick a Shift Utility once, unless otherwise noted. Some have prerequitite Shift Utilities, and cannot be taken until those are.
Well i guess this answers my question it must by a physical change?
Anyway, these abilities all see pretty cool and give you quite a bit of wiggle room.
Hide Alignment (Su):
SpoilerDisguising yourself as the captain of the guard doesn't do much if you register as evil in the paladin's eyes. Starting at level 3, a skin shifter is constantly protected by an undetectable alignment effect. He may choose to suppress this ability as a free action, and may re-activate it as a move action.
Much needed. Well done.
Skinshift (Ex):
Spoiler
Since it is one of the most innate abilities of a skin shifter, it's only natural that it's one of the first ones mastered. At 4th level, a skin shifter's Skinslip ability ceases to be an illusion and becomes an actual physical change. It now functions as alter self, though it retains the limitations from before. However, it does not allow Genderslip to become a physical change.
Hmmm... i would probably do away with this and makes your changes physical as you seem to be popping in and out of the two at the moment.
Raceslip and Ageslip:
Spoiler
Raceslip (Su): Building his repitoir of transformations, a skin shifter of 6th level or higher can alter his apparent race. He must remain humanoid, and keeps his original type and subtype. This is visual only, as disguise self, and he takes the penalty for not disguising as his own race.
Ageslip (Su): Age is but a number, and a number multiplied allows options. Starting at level 7, a skin shifter can alter his apparent age. This functions as disguise self, and retains the penalty for disguising as a different age category.
more of the above really... Its not really a problem but you seem to be stuck 50/50 between whats real physical change and whats illusion.
Quickened Change (Ex):
Spoiler
After so much practice, it's only natural that a skin shifter would get faster at changing his appearance. At 7th level, it takes only a Standard Action to change form. At 11th, it goes down to a Move Action. At 15th, it further shortens to a Swift Action. Finally, at 19th level, a skin shifter can alter his form as a Free Action.
hehe, this is pretty cool. I would probably avoid a free action though as you could theoretically do such things a bazzillion times and give everyone watching you an epileptic shock.
Transmuting Body (Ex):
Spoiler
Easing the path for alteration, a skin shifter of level 9 or higher improves on his Resistive Body. At the time he is affected by a transmutation spell, he may choose to instead raise the ECL of it by (1/2 Class Level) instead of lowering it.
hmmm not sure if i would involve things like ECL here and also there maybe should be a way to turn the ability off?
Seems fare enoguh though.
Sizeslip (Sp):
Spoiler
Sometimes, you just need to be big enough to use party members as improvised weapons or small enough to use a rat as a mount. Starting at level 10, a skin shifter can alter his size by up to (CHA Modifier) categories, to a minimum of Fine and a maximum of Colossal. This imitates the enlarge person or shrink person spells, respectively. However, due to the awkwardness of being a size you weren't born into, the bonuses, if any, are halved and there is a -2 penalty to Dexterity if growth is chosen or a -2 penalty to Strength if shrinking is chosen.
You can do some pretty mega stuff with this. Into a fine animal fly onto the BBEGs head and then turn into a whale. SPLAT!
Hide Thoughts (Su):
Spoiler
With all the identities in his head, it makes sense to at least lock the door to a skin shifter's mind. In any identity, his mind is concealed with an effect similar to mind blank. While his mind can be detected, no access is permitted to outsiders without permission. The skin shifter is aware of the attempted intrusion, though not where it came from.
Great ability a must for any such individual hoping to infiltrate a mage circle or the like.
Disguise Mastery (Ex):
Spoiler
At level 13, a skin shifter becomes highly competent in his disguises. He can always Take 10 on a Disguise check, and disguises in only 1d3 minutes. Additionally, he no longer takes penalties for disguising as a different gender, race, or age category.
This is what its all about. These last few levels feel like the point where the class really hits its stride.
Mask Alignment (Su):
Spoiler
While hiding information can work, it may raise a few unnecessary issues. Better to give false information. At level 13, a skin shifter can alter his apparent alignment. Doing so takes a swift action, and may only change by one step at a time, or a full-round action with no step limitation. For example, if the skin shifter is naturally Chaotic Neutral, and he wants to appear Lawful Good, it will take either 3 rounds (Neutral to Good, Chaotic to Neutral, Neutral to Lawful) and permit him to do other things, or 1 round (Chaotic Neutral to Lawful Good) but will not let him focus elsewhere. This does not affect his ability to emulate alignments with the Use Magic Device skill. Using the same skin shifter as an example, if he is masking his alignment to be Lawful Good, he still gets hurt from touching a Book of Exalted Deeds.
I can see this being pretty situational but should the time come I’m sure you will be happy that you have this!
Good ability.
Disguise Perfection (Ex):
Spoiler
Practice makes perfect. At level 17, a skin shifter can Take 20 on a Disguise check any time he could Take 10 without the use of his Disguise Mastery ability. Additionally, he can now disguise as a full-round action.
I like it. I woudl not call it a mega ability or anything though, because at this level there are a lot bigger things flying around. Still that does not make it a bad ability. Plus it really adds to the theme of the class.
Mask Thoughts (Su):
Spoiler
In the Abjuration vs. Illusion arguement, it comes up that abjuration lets them know you're aware they're trying, while illusion offers no protection besides hiding. A skin shifter of level 17 or higher reaches a middle ground when protecting his mind. When his mind is forcefully accessed, he only shows thoughts that match up with the identity he is currently assuming. If there are none, or he doesn't want to allow access, he can still allow his Hide Thoughts ability to affect the intrusion.
Pretty fun, you could almost allow yourself to be taken prisoner and interrogated at this point which could be fun to play out.
True Identity (Ex):
Spoiler
A skin shifter by this point will have had at least 17 different identities that he needs to keep up with. Even with all his practice, this can be taxing on his brain and make him lose his sense of who he is. By defining a True Identity, he avoids this problem. First, he chooses one of his identities, including the one he had before reaching level 2 of skin shifter. By meditating for 8 hours a week, not necessarily consecutive, he prevents himself from forgetting who he is. If his Hide Thoughts and Mask Thoughts abilities are penetrated, or access to his mind is otherwise forced through, the only thoughts that will be read are the ones pertaining to the chosen identity. Secondly, the skin shifter can take the form of his chosen identity as an immediate action.
Its not really a cap stone in the grand scheme of things but its interesting none the less.
Summary
Of all the shape changer things I’ve read so far in this competition this one is closest to what I normally think of as a shape shifter in terms of fluff. A master infiltrator and manipulator.
Sadly the crunch is a little off in my eyes. I think you need to pump this class with several cans of powerthirst and get it to live up to the scarlet pimpernel master of disguise gig it set out on. Sadly at the moment it weighs in as a poor mans changeling for a few levels and only really hits its stride at level 10ish (after which its really picks up).
You probably don’t need to change that much to bring this closer to what I think you’re going for though. Just clear up the confusion surrounding the illusion/physical alteration aspects of the class and give it a few more abilities to help it on its way.
I would also like to see a more offensive combat ability as standard. Maybe they can mimic other classes for a short amount of time or something? Perhaps they can assess peoples weaknesses quite easily?
but the most important part of any class in my eyes "the idea" is solid and thus i've high hopes for what you will construct here.Last edited by kanachi; 2012-08-21 at 04:53 PM.
OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-21, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- CA
- Gender
Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Awesome, thanks! Return PEACH will be forthcoming. Originally Posted by kanachi
Um...of course! It was completely intentional, and I'm glad you picked up on it!I’m not sure if it’s a deliberate choice but rolling into town with no image is a master stroke of theme setting for this class.
::Narrate Flashback::
My original concept was to fill those with "Trope of Legend" abilities, creating a set of abilities you could gain with advancement, based of course on more tropes. Didn't wind up going through with that, but your point is a good one; I'll see if I can fill them up with something.Dead levels, which is something i normally have issue with. I understand that you are happy with your build and the symmetry and balance one can achieve by having them can be tempting though. However, I would personally always consider throwing something in at every level, even if its a token fluff ability.
Players enjoy that feeling of progression and you don’t have to make every class feature shatter the cosmos. A chief who has adds a pinch of flavour to their meal here and there is something I look for in every build.
I had been concerned about that, and figured if anyone brought it up, I'd go back in and put more precise mechanics in spoilers under each ability. I'll set that up.I will firstly say that while I do enjoy your writing style it does at times make things a little more obtuse to read than they really need to be. I personally find it a lot easier to have the fluff and crunch separated a little more as I don’t want to have to read a around thing when I’m referencing something “in game”. I love the effect you have created however, like you are telling the tale of the class and so forth, but it’s something to be aware of from a practical stand point.
Whoops! The [Language-Dependent] tag exists for a reason.Also I assume the target has to be able to understand your instruction? so you would have to speak their language (or another they know)?
Wow! High praise!It’s a class which I both had amazing fun reading but also found totally overblown and actually quite frustrating to work through at times. It packed full of flavour and will surely get one of my three votes just one those grounds alone (at time of writing) in fact i think you have thus far created the class to beat as I think many will fall in love with your work here.
Pretty much glossed over point by point quotes since the meat of the issue with the higher-level abilities can be summed up here, and it's a valid point. I definitely don't want to strictly remove the abilities, as they fit the theme and can probably work fine in higher-tier campaigns where divinations and contingencies and the like are the norm. I'll see if I can come up with some alternatives, though, that don't provide quite as much control.Sadly for all its utterly awesome and incredible work i do still find it a little disappointing, because i know i would never allow this in my game and I am pretty sure a lot of others would feel the same. Which is a crying shame indeed because I firmly believe that a more DM sensitive version of this class would certainly be something which I would build a private lobby for in my dnd airport.
Apologies neither necessary nor warranted. Thanks a ton!I’m sorry I can’t peach you class better to be honest, you have hit the edge of my abilitys as a pearcher (not hard to do). It warrants someone far more skilled than me to go other things in greater detail and break down what I believe to be one of the most creative classes I’ve seen in a long while.A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
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2012-08-21, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
right thats me burnt out for the night... I'll try to have a look at some other classes further down the list asap, so i'm sorry if i have not yet reached you!
OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-21, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
I thought I had been a bit too "creative", and I get what you're saying. Anyway, thanks for the heads up! Originally Posted by kanachi
EDIT: I've gone through it, and gave everything a tweaking. Should be a bit better balanced now.Last edited by TheGeckoKing; 2012-08-21 at 05:23 PM.
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2012-08-21, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Originally Posted by God Imperror
I'll take both of those into consideration. Here's a list of things I noticed both had in common: Originally Posted by kanachi
Both asked for specification on how the slip abilities are different from the shift ones. I had meant for it to be that the slip abilities are detectable via magic and whatnot, while the shift ones are actual changes, like a werecreature changing forms, except for Sizeslip/shift. I'll clarify that sometime within 36 hours.
Both asked if the Resistive Body could be turned off. I'll bounce the idea off of a friend and see what he thinks. The idea for it was to provide some sort of defense that would aid in combat, as opposed to just hiding. The upgraded form, Transmuting Body, is meant to raise the Effective Caster Level of it, the idea being that helpful spells are more accepted (like eagle's splendor) while harmful ones are resisted (like disintegrate)
Both asked to add more skills. I can see the logic here, and will update that with all the other feedback updates.
Both asked about changelings and doppelgangers. I was considering making a racial variant for changelings, but I'm thinking of just giving both races a boost to social and disguise checks.
Both mentioned the "Fantastic Voyage Bomb" idea of shrinking, entering someone, then growing. I should have seen that coming. I'll update the Sizeslip/shift abilities to limit growth based on available space.
Both said that Form Focus was harsh at early levels. I agree. I'm considering halving the DCs, making it a 5 on day-to-day and a 10 in combat/stress. Or even just removing the passive DCs, and having a check only needed when hit.
Both mentioned that I should limit how many shifts per round you get. Again, should have seen this coming. Shift to a dwarf to get a bonus against that orc ranger, then shift to a human so he doesn't get bonuses against you, for instance
Both ended saying that I need to send this class to Hans and Franz. I'm thinking of possibly slowing the progression of Alternate Persona, and having Sneak Attack fill in. I recall that one idea I had at one point was to give it a damage multiplier against targets unaware of its attack. Then I realized that multiplication is a bad idea in 3.5. Thus the variant Social Assassin was born. In terms of other combat things, I'll probably look at other roguelike classes, such as scouts.
Here are my other general notes. These function as both a reminder to me, and to allow insight to everyone else:
Alternate Persona could easily be adapted as a general rule for everyone, simply requiring a Disguise check in place of the ability. It was meant mostly as flavor/fluff, but could also work mechanically. No one expects the town drunk to also be the captain of the guard, for instance.
Shift Utilities are a growing list. Each one is meant to imitate either an object or spell, and there's a lot of each of those. Some, obviously, are just impossible/gross. Making a tent of your own skin defeats the purpose of protecting your skin from the weather, for instance.
I'll more than likely rework the first few levels entirely within a day or so. That was a big area of weakness that both reviews noted. I'll take suggestions on how to do so while I think of how to do it.Awesome Gordon Freemane Avatar by Dirtytabs
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2012-08-21, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Take a rest before jumping into the anointed heritor it is a long read atm Originally Posted by kanachi
Working on: Anointed Heritor PEACHes are welcome.
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2012-08-21, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Thanks, kanachi
Fixed: Bestial Knowledge level and Fangs damage.
Claws: You can get two if you don't attack with your unarmed strike which is beneficial to do until you have iterative attacks and possibly even then (is it better to have two attacks at your highest bonus or 1 at your highest and 2 at 5 less). Mostly it's to stop you from getting 3 attacks per round at 2nd level, and because I was worried about giving them too many attacks. I might make it so that after a certain (relatively low) level you can attack with unarmed strike and both claws since that just catches you up with flurry of blows assuming you take 2 feats.
Shifting Claws: I agree that Shifting Claws is not really the most fluff appropriate ability, but with the difficulty in getting magical properties on natural weapons (which ended up a big difficulty in trying to balance the class) and problems with DR I decided they needed some way to get around DR from a balance point of view (at least in my opinion).
Enhanced Movement: I mainly gave them this ability so that they'd have a reason to make a full attack and an ability to letting them bring their natural weapons all to bear. That said, I might just make it a swift action movement so many times per day or encounter.
Living Battle: Looking over it again it might be a little too much all at once
Any advice on how to spread it out a bit? I might could split it into 3 abilities (Immunity to transmutations, Immunity to crits and stunning, and the 
improvement to their Fort only Mettle) but what levels would be good for each one? The last I'd feel really worried about giving at an earlier level because it's actually rather strong (Finger of Death is now 3d6+15 damage save negates for example, disintegrate is 5d6 damage save negates).
Summary: Thanks I actually statted 2 out, one at 5th level which I ran through a challenge I'd been running a few homebrewed classes through and I had to make several changes to the class for it to not lose to the fighter and even then it was one of the worst ones I ran. The other was 17th level and I never tested it but was worried it might be a little strong, so I definitely agree that it's balance is a little bumpy for lack of a better word.
Hope it goes well as an NPC and that reminds me I'm building an adventure in Limbo, I might should use some of these classes for it
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2012-08-21, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Okay, went through the Dimensional Double. Hope some of this is useful!
Dimensional Double:
Spoiler Originally Posted by kanachi
So, the meat of the class. This is a really cool ability, and a tricky one to balance. While the mechanics are solid overall, what I'm concerned about is that the nature of the class heavily encourages casters, making it a sort of omni-theurge if played optimally. A group of casters with very specific specializations, with the lower-level ones emphasizing utility, support, or defense-piercing spells, allow you to have tremendous amounts of versatility and a truly staggering number of spells per day.
Non-casting classes, meanwhile, seem notably discouraged. The higher hit points of warriors aren't useful, and lower levels mean they'll have trouble contributing effectively. I'm a little unsure how the constant swapping in and out would work for many skill uses. Most critically, the AoO for using the ability is a strong deterrent to melee doubles (there are ways around it, of course, but it becomes a hoop you have to jump through to get an already less-optimal result). I suppose a purely damage-optimized charger or archer would be worth a slot, though.
Dimensional Guidance:
SpoilerDimensional Guidance (Su):
Upon reaching 2nd level the conduit learns to draw inspiration from its infinite doubles without drawing upon a singular individual.
If the conduit chooses not to activate a double this turn they may select one of the following aspects to receive a +2 insight bonus to until the start of their next turn. The aspects the conduit may choose are:
- Attack rolls
- Saving throws
- Armour Class
However, when a conduit chooses to benefit from this ability they immediately become incapable of activating a double until the start of their next turn. In essence each turn the conduit must choose to either benefit from this ability or utilise a double (they may never benefit from both abilities in the same round).
For every 5 Additional levels the conduit gains within this class the bonus provided by this ability increases by 1 (+3 at 7th level, +4 at 12th level and +5 at 17th level).
This is a nice ability. I don't expect it will often be worth giving up your double's actions, though since you have doubles for offense, I can imagine combining this with defensive actions to make the conduit itself a capable tank, if you can find a way to force foes to attack you.
Actually...you know what, you could make this an immediate action, and change it to, you can't activate a double on your next turn. That would make the conduit into a credible tank; if the enemies don't mount a serious enough attack against it to force it to buff its defenses, it can summon up some offense-focused double to wreak havoc.
Planar Lore:
SpoilerPlanar Lore (Ex):
Starting at 2nd level the conduit’s understanding of the dimensional weave gives them insight into the multiverse and its many realms. As a result the conduit receives a bonus to all Knowledge [the planes] equal to half their dimensional conduit class level.
Fits the flavor and certainly doesn't hurt.
Rift Stride:
SpoilerRift Stride (Su):
Upon reaching 3rd level the conduits bond with the dimensional weave allows them to step through rifts unseen by other beings, using them to teleport short distances. The conduit may, as a swift action, teleport 10 feet. Later at the distance the conduit may teleport increases by 5 feet every 6 levels (15 feet at 9th level and 20 feet at 15th level).
The conduit may not utilise this ability if restrained or grappled and must have a line of sight to their destination.
I actually really like this ability for this class, because summoning a double still gives you a use for your swift action. This gives the class something to use that on, a helpful little boost to mobility. Actually, I'm starting to realize that there really are worse things you can do than put one of your upper-slot doubles to some horrifically brutal charger. Blink 10' back (or into the air with Battle Jump?), summon the charger, guaranteed charge every turn, terrain permitting.
Warp Shield:
SpoilerWarp Shield (Su):
Upon reaching 3rd level doubles who enter the conduits dimension can envelope themselves with a dimensional shield when entering combat.
Any double who draws an attack of opportunity when moving or performing a bull rush receives a +4 bonus to their armour class. This bonus to armour class increases by +1 at 8 level and every 5 levels thereafter (+5 at 8th level, +6 at 13th level and finally +7 at 18th level).
More good news for the charger-double!
Dimensional Pocket:
SpoilerDimensional Pocket (Su):
Upon reaching 4th level the conduit gains access to a small pocket dimension between the normal planes of existence.
Once per turn the conduit may, as a free action, move any one item within their hands into a dimensional pocket, accessible only to them. The dimensional pocket may hold a total weight of 10 pounds per level (to a maximum of 200 pounds at 20th level).
Additionally once per turn a single item may, as a free action, be retrieved from the dimensional pocket by the conduit. The retrieved item emerges within the conduits hands. If the conduit has no free hands they may not retrieve items from the dimensional pocket.
If a conduit’s dimensional pocket is suppressed, by an antimagic field for example, it will become temporarily inaccessible to the conduit. Items which offer links to extra dimensional spaces, such as a bag of holding, may not be placed into a dimensional pocket.
This ability is cool. I feel like there should be some way to allow it to be used to let your doubles bring in items of their own. Even just letting you put in your weapon and they pull out theirs or something. Although I guess that's what Riftweave is for.
Riftweave Weapon:
SpoilerRiftweave Weapon (Su):
Beginning at 4th level the conduit’s doubles gains the ability to, as a free action, summon forth a single riftweave weapon whenever they activated.
The double may summon one weapon they are proficient with to a free hand (if they have no free hands the ability fails). If they choose to summon a projectile weapon, it comes with 10 bolts, cartridges, arrows, bullets, or whatever serves as the most appropriate projectile.
Weapons summoned by this ability gain a +1 enchantment bonus to their both attack and damage rolls. Additionally for every 4 further levels the conduit gains within this class the bonus provided by this ability increases by +1 (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level and +5 at 20th level).
Weapons summoned by this ability are made of riftweave, a trans-dimensional material which can mimic the form of metal and wood yet has the appearance of raw solidified energy. Riftweave weapons are considered magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction and also extend into the ethereal realm, functioning normally against any creatures present there.
The summoned weapon (and all projectiles summoned with it) persist only while the chosen double is in play, after which they vanish.
I get the point of this ability, although to be honest, it strikes me as just another problem with non-caster doubles. As it stands, I'd more likely make sure all my doubles who use weapons, if any, use the same as my conduit, so I could buy a level-appropriate one (and GMW it up with a caster double).
Still and all, guaranteed magic weapons are a nice perk for low levels. I actually learned that the hard way recently. Shadows, bah.
Void Keeper:
SpoilerVoid Keeper (Su):
At 5th level the conduit observes the rifts and weaves of the infinite dimensions and can interpret their motions, allowing them to act against methods of extradimensional travel in their locality.
Any creature within 20 feet of the conduit who attempts to use a method of extradimensional travel has a 10% chance of their action failing. The conduit may opt to suppress this ability as a free action if they so choose.
Forms of movement hindered by a this ability include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like or psionic abilities.
Later at 8th levels and every three level beyond (until 17th level) the chance of such abilities failing increases by 10% (20% at 8th level, 30% at 11th level, 40% at 14th level and finally 50% 17th level).
Niche, but potentially useful and cool flavor.
Worlds Collide:
SpoilerWorlds Collide (Su):
Upon reaching 6th level the conduit may, Once per encounter when activating a double, pull them into their dimension with such force that a rift between the worlds detonates as 20 foot emanation centred upon the doubles location.
All other creatures and unattended objects within this area must overcome a reflex save (DC = 10 + half the conduits class level + half the chosen doubles character level) or pushed back 5 feet, knocked prone and sustain 1d6 force damage for each character level the chosen double possesses.
A creature who successfully overcomes this save suffers only half the full damage and is neither pushed back or knocked prone. Creatures with evasion (and improved evasion) may deploy that ability, as normal, against this effect to lessen or avoid the damage it inflicts.
Using this ability expends the move action of the chosen double as they take time to steady themselves after such a turbulent entry into the conduits dimension.
Only a double called to temporarily replace the conduit (and not those summoned using the Endless Worlds ability) may be targeted by this ability.
This is nice, although centered-on-self area attacks can be tricky to use. Would make for a nice nova move with a caster or psion double with Greater Fireburst or Energy Burst or whatever. Also pretty awesome thematically.
Dimensional Grasp:
SpoilerDimensional Grasp (Sp):
A conduit who reaches 7th level may, as a standard action, cast the dimensional anchor spell as though they were a wizard with a caster level equal to their dimensional conduit class level.
Further development of anti-teleport capabilities. Always nice.
Beyonder:
SpoilerBeyonder (Sp):
A conduit who reaches 9th level understands how to safely traverse the rifts linking differing planes of existence, time and space.
Once per day the conduit may, as a standard action, cast either the plain shift or teleport spells as though they were a wizard with a caster level equal to their dimensional conduit class level.
Unlike the either of these spells however the conduit is not required to physically touch creatures to transport them and may instead target creatures up to 30 feet away as a ranged touch attack. Targeted creatures are still permitted saving throws and allowed the opportunity to use any spell resistance they may have as normal.
You may utilise this ability twice per day upon reaching 13th level and a third time at 17th level.
Level-appropriate access to long-distance teleportation - it's a wonderful thing. Targeted teleportation is even better. This is the ability that proves that the conduit itself is not to be discounted.
Endless Worlds:
SpoilerEndless Worlds (Su):
A conduit who attains 10th level learns to draw their doubles into the world without substituting their own involvement. The conduit may, once per encounter, summon one of their doubles into any free space within 30 feet of their current position as a standard action. The Double may then immediately act as normal, returning to its home dimension upon concluding its actions.
Later at 15th level the conduit may use this ability to summon two of their doubles and finally upon reaching 20th level they may summon a third double.
Summoned doubles appear wearing no armour or possessing any items of their own. Instead they emerge in clothing forged from riftweave, which offers a +1 Enchantment bonus to armour class for every 4 character levels the double possesses. Each double may also opt to emerge wielding a single weapon forged from riftweave as if the conduit had utilised the riftweave weapon ability for each double.
If a double summoned in this way sustains 1 or more hit points of damage whilst within the conduits dimension their immediately return to their home dimension. Unlike a double who takes the conduits position none of the excess damage flows over to the conduit when a summoned double is struck.
All doubles have a fleeting existence within the conduits home dimension and thus may not extend their time here by any means. Any attempts to grant further actions to either a double or the conduit (even through the manipulation of time) immediately fail.
When you first get this ability it's less than impressive. You basically get to keep your move action, although I suppose being able to target your double's location has its advantages. Once you get multi-summoning, though, it's a potent nova move.
Between Worlds:
SpoilerBetween Worlds (Su):
Starting at 13th level the conduit learns to survive and travel within the space between dimensions. Once per encounter the conduit may, as a swift action, become ethereal for 1 round.
This ability does not extend to the conduits doubles, who do not appear in an ethereal state. The conduit however will remain ethereal so it’s therefore possible for a conduit to become ethereal, activate a double (who emerges in a non-etherial state) before returning once more – still in ethereal form.
As a move action the conduit may re-set this ability, allowing them to once again use it within the same encounter.
Another helpful use for your swift action, and per-encounter usage gives it reasonable general utility. Quite nice.
One of Many:
SpoilerOne of Many (Su):
Starting at 16th level the conduit learns to act as an intermediary between the infinite versions of them self and their doubles, sharing experiences, motivation, insight and tactical suggestions. As a result whenever a double enter the play they receive a +2 bonus to all their saving throws. Later at 19th level this bonus increases to +4.
To be honest, this ability feels pointless. It's only really useful against readied actions, and if a caster has an action readied to tell your double to go home, it can probably come up with one that a save won't matter against (even a basic area attack will do - half damage is still enough to send a double away instantly).
5 World Step:
Spoiler5 World Step (Su):
At 20th level the conduit has learned to meld their many selves into a seamless dimensional confluence, allowing their many doubles to take action in the blink of an eye.
Once per day the conduit may, as a full round action, activate all their doubles - one after the other – as if using their dimensional double ability up to 5 times in a row.
Each of the conduits five chosen doubles may only be used once and may only perform a single move or standard action instead of a full round action.
The intense strain of performing this action causes the conduit to become fatigued upon conclusion of the final doubles action. This effect persists until the end of the encounter.
The capstone ability is pure awesome, and pure insanity if you have a full lineup of casters. Unloading an 8th, two 7th, and two 6th level spells in succession should be sufficient to annihilate anything even vaguely level-appropriate. And as written, I...think they might still be able to quicken, if that isn't enough (unless I misinterpreted the base ability and they don't actually get a swift action).
Overall
The class has a cool theme, and interesting mechanics. Really, I think it's quite solid, my only really significant complaint being that the class seems better geared towards being an omni-theurge (well, plus a beastly charger) than really going for a mix of roles. The mundane/caster disparity is going to be a problem in any mechanic that involves having access to additional character sheets, of course, but if I were to suggest any changes to the class, it would be to tweak things to make melee and skill doubles more worthwhile.Last edited by Quellian-dyrae; 2012-08-21 at 11:42 PM.
A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
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2012-08-22, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Thank you! very kind of you to do a re-peach! Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Agreed. Its very hard to balance. Not allowing items, which includes: spell books, spell components or holy symbols was one way of cutting down on the range of spell casting uber classes that would be effective. A savvy conduit would likely have a holy symbol in store, to get around this however, but a lack of spell books and components are still a lot harder to work around. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Also no two doubles can share the same class so you could only have 1 sorcerer, 1 druid, etc...
Still, I would concede that even with the above spell casters remain the most potent choice as your double. The fact they are the most potent classes anyway does not help of course.
I have toyed with the idea of putting a cap on the spells and spell like abilities which a double can manifest in "our" dimension of say... 5th level spells/spell like abilities. This would also extend on to psionics as well of course. Do you think something like that would be a good idea?
To be honest, i wanted to avoid the conduit being able to use doubles to circumvent the need to use her own skills, hence the extremely short time which doubles are involved. So yes skill monkeys are at a disadvantage for that reason, which i believe to be a good thing as far as skills are concerned. I should probably write up something to emphasize/expand upon this however. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
As for non-casters, to be honest its what i would like to try to use my doubles for, not because its the most powerful option but because its the most awesome especially when you get 5 world step and can make an uber melee attack in multiple different forms.
That being said however, i dont want doubles to act as damage sponges. That would obviously make stopping the conduit very tough.
Any idea you have are most welcome though!
Not a bad idea at all! Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Yer this is one of my favorite aspects of the class as well. It also help the conduit avoid being entirely passive. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
This was my though also. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Agreed, though to be honest a large part of this class is supposed to be embracing the vast differences between your doubles, sure you can be boring and make a mega build where everyone of your doubles works in perfect harmony... but where is the fun in that?! Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
who would not want to 5 world step where your doubles attack with a great bow, kung fu, a goliath great hammer, a whip dagger and a psi blade? it would be like having the entire cast of soul blade at your disposal.
Yer this one was purely for the lols to be honest. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Also not having to put yourself in the line of fire is a good boon at its first step. Still, it obviously gets way more powerful once you get to 15th level and beyond. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Agreed, its not really supposed to be a mega powerful thing but it will possibly help you get your doubles into some situations a bit more easily. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
An all magic mega blow out is a concern as is meta magic (which i may disallow or limit). Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Again I would hope that a dm or a preferably the player themselves would see the actual intention of the class and not use it as a way of simply loading up on a bazillion casters and instead have fun bashing some heads in a many different ways. However, you cant count on such things sadly so there is more tinkering to be done i fancy.
Thank you so much for going over all this! Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
I think the most important thing is trying to balance out the doubles you can make, which is probably best done by limiting the abilities of casters once they enter our dimension... which would make sense thematically i think. Do you think a spell level and spell like ability cap of 5th level is a good idea?
If you have any other thoughts let me know as well! :)OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-22, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Rest taken and challenge accepted sir! Originally Posted by God Imperror
Take a rest before jumping into the anointed heritor it is a long read atm
Obviously as I've gone over a number of aspects of your class before this will be a little bit more brief, or at least I think it will.
anyway I'll shut up, because its PEACHIN' TIME!!
The Anointed Heritor
It sounds like a feminine hygiene product sold by the Vatican, but let’s find out...
Title Image and initial fluff...
Spoiler
I learned the way of the sword by listening to stories. I practice the way of the sword by being part of stories.[/center]
The anointed heritors follow a path of tradition and oral history that goes back to the ancestral heroes. Those heroes from the dawn of time are shrouded and mysteries, not many facts remain of the heroes. And everything that is left is subject to interpretation by the anointed heritors.
Nowadays is hard to tell what are the heroes. They might be lesser deities from times past that even after loosing most of their followers keep some of their former power by being attracted to the heritors. They might be myths that have gained power due to the believes of generations. They could be just inspiring stories that keep the anointed heritors goings. Whatever they are it is impossible to tell, as the written documents are scarce and date several hundreds of years latter than the theoretical time of the heroes, and oral tradition focuses in their practices rather in where did they come from.
... well yer actually that does look like the kinda thing the Vatican would put on such a product were they selling them.
Anyway, enough of my tomfoolery, lets move on because everything here looks dandy to me!
Pre game rule information stuff...
Spoiler
Adventures: Anointed heritors most of the time adventure in order to get closer to their patron hero. By adventuring they also expand the area of influence of the ancestral heroes, some truly dedicated even join the ranks of the ancestral heroes themselves.
Characteristics: The most important abilities of anointed heroes are the heroes that they chanel, through them they get access to several varied skills and abilities. Its abilities are also supported by the guidance of ancestral heroes, helping the anointed heritors in moments of need.
Alignment: Characters of any alignment can become anointed heritors as there are heroes of several alignments and mentalities.
Religion: Religion is not normally an important part of anointed heritor's life, those who chose to follow the path of a deity normally revere warrior deities specially those with portfolios that include fate or strategy. Some anointed heritors choose to revere the ancestral heroes as if they were deities.
Background: Most anointed heritors start they career studying the deeds of heroes. They will unravel the misteries of their chosen heroes life. Training to emulate their fighting style soon they will become experts and draw some of the true essence of the ancestral hero being partially indistinguishable from their patron hero. By continuing the legend of their chosen hero they empower both themselves and the hero. Once they are able to chanel the essence of a hero they can learn new paths following the steps of other heroes and eventually combining their styles to form a unique legend.
Races: As every race has heroes characters of any race can become anointed heritors. Races with a distinct trait for story telling and oral tradition have more anointed heritors as their ancestral heroes are better known.
Other Classes: Anointed heritors work well with companions of other classes and races. He might be awed the stealth of rogues and their ability to finish enemies with a single strike, maybe he feels atracted to the heroic ideals of a paladin or he admires the powers of spell casters over reality.
Role: Anointed heritors are generalist, depending on their ancestral heroes they can work on different roles. Mostly mundane in their abilities they can fall in the middle ground between skillfull characters such as rogues or rangers and more martial characters such as fighters or paladins. Chosing on hero or another would make the anointed heritor strive more to a role or another, as he progresses in his career he is able to fill more roles. Regardless of their particular strengths anointed heritors as a whole tend to have strong personalities and be good spokesmen.
Adaptation: Heroes are porpuselly left ambiguious and open, every anointed hero can have a different view of the ancestral heroes to fit their backstory and personality. Depending on the campaign the heroes might be renamed or even with the collaboration of the DM new heroes can be created.
I really like the flavour you have built up for this, it’s filled out much better than when I first looked over it all and as such has really helped elevate the class beyond a simple numbers experiment (which many other classes become).
I would like to see alternate explanations for their powers explored within the “Adaptation” section however. This is just personal preference though as I always think this is one of the more interesting elements when analysis these fluff entries. Not all campaign worlds are the same and thus it’s nice to show that you creation can be melded to fit a new theme and form if needed.
Game rule information...
Spoiler
GAME RULE INFORMATION
Anointed Heritor's have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma determines most of their abilities potency and uses. Most anointed heritors are martial characters, strength, dexterity and constitution become important depending on their fighting style.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As bard
Starting Gold: As sorcerer
Class Skills
The Anointed Heritor's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are...
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather information (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (oratory) (Cha), Search (Int), Spot (Wis) plus any skill that the anointed heritor receives from his channeled heroes and his patron hero.
Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Just as solid as its always been :)
Class Table...
Spoiler
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save*|Ref Save*|Will Save|Special|Heroes|Offerings|boons
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Patron Hero, Anointed Guidance|0|0|0
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Anointment|0|0|0
3rd|+2|+1|+1|+3|Ancestral Channeling (one hero)|1|0|0
4th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Offerings (maximum lvl 1)|1|1|0
5th|+3|+1|+1|+4|Ancestral Skills|2|1|0
6th|+4|+2|+2|+5|Anointment, Boons (one)|2|2|1
7th|+5|+2|+2|+5|Anointed recovery (move action)|3|2|1
8th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+6|Ancestral feat (one), Offerings (maximum lvl 2)|3|3|1
9th|+6/+1|+3|+3|+6|Ancestral tactics 1/day|4|3|1
10th|+7/+2|+3|+3|+7|Ancestral channeling (two heroes), Anointment|4|4|1
11th|+8/+3|+3|+3|+7|Ancestral guidance (Initiative)|5|4|1
12th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Offerings (maximum lvl 3), boons (two)|5|5|2
13th|+9/+4|+4|+4|+8|Anointed recovery (swift action)|6|5|2
14th|+10/+5|+4|+4|+9|Anointment|6|6|2
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+9|Anointed recovery (full round)|7|6|2
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Ancestral feat (two), Offerings (maximum lvl 4)|7|7|2
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|Ancestral Guidance (3 skills)|8|7|2
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|Ancestral tactics 2/day, Anointment, boons (three) |8|8|3
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Anointed recovery (superior)|9|8|3
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Ancestral channeling (three saints), Offerings (maximum lvl 5)|9|9|3
[/table]
More of the same, all looks good here.
Class features...
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:
SpoilerLight armor and simple weapons
Brief and to the point i guess... maybe worth writing it in the more traditional style. Just a nit pick though.
Patron Hero (Ex):
SpoilerThrough study and dedication you learn a bit of the ancestral heroes. At 1st level choose an ancestral hero from the lists of ancestral heroes available to the Anointed Hero, even if you cannot fully channel it you gain its associated skill as class skill, its associated weapon proficiency and the associated good save progression (fortitude or reflex), regardless of any hero that you might channel you keep the weapon proficiency, the save progression and the class skill. In addition if you are not channeling any hero you gain the first ability of your patron hero. If somehow your ancestral channeling gets suppressed you gain the benefit of this class ability.
It was good before and still just as good now. I'll take a look at the Ancestral Heroes a bit further down, which will give a better idea of how things look.
Anointed Guidance (Ex):
Spoiler
Starting at 1st level at the beginning of every encounter you gain one guidance point per class level to a maximum equal to your Charisma bonus (minimum half your level). While you have guidance points you gain a +2 bonus to Listen, Search and Spot checks. At 11th level you gain a +2 bonus to initiative checks. At 17th level while you have guidance points you gain a +2 bonus to three skills of your choosing, in addition if those skills are gained through your ancestral skill class feature you can choose 10 with those skills, even under conditions where taking 10 would normally be impossible (some skills, like use magic device, specifically disallow you to take 10, you cannot use this ability to take 10 with those skills).
So at 17th level when do i pick the skills which i gain my bonus on? is it a one time choice? or each time i replenish my guidance points? or freeform?
I also asume from the wording that you cant choose Listen, Search or Spot and thus cant use the ability to take 10 on those?
Anointment (Ex or Su):
SpoilerAt second level you gain two anointed abilities selected from the list below every four levels thereafter you can choose an additional ability.
Wow this class really is a big read...
these abilities all seem pretty good to me to be honest. They certainly add a lot of flexability and customisation to your hero.
I guess my only gripe at this time would be the lack of flavour text for each ability. It might be nice to have a single line just to explain the fluff behind the boon a bit better.
Ancestral Channeling (Su):
SpoilerThrough special methods known only to Anointed Heritors you can channel one of the ancestral heroes. At third level you can only channel your patron hero, but you can learn new heroes at every odd level. Once you are channeling a hero you gain its associated skill as class skill and its abilities. You can make offerings and boons with the heroes that you channel as described below. At 10th level you can channel two heroes at once and at level 20th you can channel three heroes at once. Ancestral heroes are bound to your soul and they cannot be targeted or expelled by any means except by using the ancestral repentance class ability, described below, nor can they be suppressed except by an antimagic field or similar effect.
To channel a hero you must perform a private ritual every morning, this is similar to a wizard preparing spells and you can do so only once per day after a good night's rest. You must anoint yourself with clean water and oils while meditating for an hour to be able to channel heroes.
The difficulty class for a saving throw against any supernatural power granted by an ancestral hero is 10 + 1/2 your effective anointed heritor level + your Cha modifier.
Much as i remebmer it, still looking good.
Offerings (Su):
Spoiler
You gain access to a small reserve of offerings, which can be invested into your ancestral heroes abilities to increase their power. Your offerings reserve's size is shown on the table above. Your character level determines the maximum quantity of offerings that you can invest in any single ability, at 4th level you can invest up to one offering point in abilities, every four levels thereafter you can invest an extra offering point to a maximum of 5 offering points at level 20. As a swift action, you can reallocate your offerings investments in your ancestral hero abilities every round.
As above, still looking good.
It would be nice if you gave a little more insight into the fluff of your abilities though.
Ancestral Skills (Ex):
Spoiler
Whenever you start channeling a hero, or more, you can designate a number of class skills equal to your charisma bonus (if any). For the duration of the channeling you can make skill checks using your anointed heritor level in place of the number of ranks you have in that skill (even if the number is 0). You can make "trained only" checks but you can't take 10 using ancestral skills (you need to have actual ranks to take 10).
The flexability this actually offers makes it rather powerful. Not OTT but powerful.
Boons (Su):
SpoilerYou can get a boon from any hero that you are channeling. Unlike offerings boons are almost permanent and last for as long as you channel the ancestral hero. At 12th level and again at 18th level you gain an additional boon.
Stacked with everything else your class is getting over time some of these things are begining to make your class very powerful.
No single ability is broken or OTT but combined together they are very potent indeed. I see this class as a very high Tier 3 at the moment, which if totally fine but i thought you should know my thoughts.
Anointed recovery (Su):
SpoilerYou can expend a move action to recover one guidance point. You can expend as many move actions as you have, earning an equal number of guidance points. At 13th level you can choose to expend a swift action to recover one guidance point. At 15th level you can expend a full round action to recover half your guidance points (rounded up). At 19th level you recover two guidance points per expended move action (or swift action).
Much needed and kicks in at about the right point.
Ancestral feat (Ex):
SpoilerYou gain a bonus feat. The ancestral heroes are known for their heroic deeds, you cannot choose a feat with the following descriptors [divine], [item creation], [metamagic], [metapsionic], [psionic item creation feats] or [wild]. You must meet the prerequisites for this feat. Additionally if you choose any [heritor] feat you can use the effective ranks granted by your ancestral skills ability as if they were true ranks (only for the purpose of meeting prerequisites). Whenever you start channeling a new hero you can choose to change your bonus feat to any other feat for which you meet the prerequisites. At 16th level you gain a second bonus feat that you can also choose to change whenever you change your channeled heroes.
"The ancestral heroes are known for their heroic deeds, you cannot choose a feat with the following descriptors [divine], [item creation], [metamagic], [metapsionic], [psionic item creation feats] or [wild]." is not really the best flow of fluff into crunch i've seen.
Still the feature itself is pretty good, no complaints from me!
Ancestral tactics (Su):
SpoilerYour knowledge of your ancestral heroes allows you to channel different heroes if it would fit the situation. You can change your ancestral heroes, ancestral skills and ancestral feats picking new choices. Using ancestral repentance takes 10 minutes and provokes attacks of opportunity. You can use this ability 1/day at 9th level and 2/day at 18th level.
If you get this at 9th why is it all the way down here?
Also where is your capstone? is this supposed to be it? I mean its not bad but I was kinda expecting something with more balls to be honest.
Ancestral Heroes
Ok i'm gunna blast through these pretty quick...
Spoiler
Granted abilities:
- All powers granted by heroes are supernatural in origin, even if they replicate spells, powers or abilities that are not normally considered magical.
- Supernatural abilities are magical and thus suppressed in an antimagic field.
- Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled.
- Unless they deal damage supernatural abilities affect incorporeal creatures normally. A supernatural ability has a 50% chance not to affect an incorporeal target if the source of the ability is corporeal.
- Using a supernatural ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted.
- Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless otherwise noted.
- Some of the supernatural abilities granted by heroes provide constant benefits once activated. If the duration of a particular effect is not stated or implied by the ability description assume it constant. In case those abilities get suppressed they can be resumed as a free action.
- Supernatural abilities don't have somatic or verbal components, but certain requirements might apply to the use of individual granted abilities.
- Supernatural abilities are neither arcane nor divine. Thus no spell failure applies to the use of hero-granted abilities by an armored anointed heritor, even when those abilities mimic spells.
- An anointed heritor shows no outward sign when using a granted ability, unless the ability description specifies that he must concentrate, or the use of the ability would be obvious based on its description (such as becoming a werewolf)
- When subjected to a supernatural ability that requires a saving throw but has no obvious effect, the target feels a hostile force or tingle but does not necessarily know the source or the nature of the attack.
- Effects created by the anointed heritor's supernatural abilities end when the anointed heritor uses again the ability that caused them (there cannot be two identical effects at once being caused by a single anointed heritor), if the anointed heritor switches his offering points from (or to) the ability that caused the effect, the anointed heritor stops channeling the hero that granted them, or if the anointed heritor dies while channeling.
- The difficulty class for a saving throw against a hero's granted abilities is 10 + 1/2 anointed heritor level + anointed heritor's Cha modifier.
- Abilities that duplicate feats grant the benefit of the feat even if the anointed heritor doesn't qualify for the feat. Abilities granted by heroes that duplicate feats cannot be used for meeting prerequisites.
Its great to have all this sorted up front. Good job!
right on to the Ancestral Heroes themselves...
Nightthirster: very themeatic plus who does not like a bit of sneak attacking!
Stormcloak: Lightning is always fun and its got some ok abilities. Not super powerful, but i like it.
Dancing Fire: I really like this one, its quite potent as well. Inspire courage is a really nice touch.
Windrider: I always like looking at mounted combat stuff even though i never really get the chance to explore it in game as much as i would like. Its not overly powerful as far as I can tell, but i like it none the less.
Moonwolf: Becoming a kind of werewolf is awesome. I like the way this develops.
Swordmaster: Martial lore as a skill is a nice touch. I love playing "the greatest swordsman who ever lived" role and while this is far away from that kind of power level it does carry the flavor.
Laughing fool: Why the Kukri as its weapon? I would hve though maybe something a bit more trixy like net or whip?
Battlelord: Spell cutter is a cool ability, i like the image of using an attack roll more than using a weapon drill check, but i see why you made that call.
Godspeaker: I love the image of a bad ass priest with a war hammer. Forbidden knowledge is a nice idea as well Omen of Peril is a cool thing for a class like this to have access to and it works quite well.
Swifttalon: Dont know why but i really expected this one to offer you a movement speed boost. none the less its a solid choice, not one of my favs though.
Wrath: ...and here is the movement boost. You get to fill that barbarian role if you so wish. Its nice and theme filled, probably not the choice I would make but good none the less.
Truthseeker: Its got that paladin feel, which i asume was the point. Sadly i'm not really that fond of paladins so its not really for me, none the less its a solid choice.
Summary
Wow, that was one hell of a class to work though.
I will be honest, I really like it and mechanically it hits all the right notes. I cant really point at to many issues beyond a few nitpicks mentioned above.
I guess my biggest single issue would be the lack of flavour on some of the features. You sometimes just kind of give a title for an ability and then state some crunch... obviously this is fine, but I quite enjoy a little bit of fluff to get me in the mood... think of it as class feature foreplay.
Anyway, I think you should be very prouf of what your making here. Its solid and powerful enough to stand shoulder to shoulder with all the cool kids without being broken.
All in all, a strong candidate for winning this entire contest if you flesh out the flavour text.Last edited by kanachi; 2012-08-22 at 04:18 PM.
OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-22, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- CA
- Gender
Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Limiting the spells would certainly help, but I think equally important, if not moreso, is encouraging the sort of tactics you want players to use. Some suggestions:
Give the conduit a spells per day list (capped if desired), even if they don't have spells known; every spell cast by a double burns an appropriate spell slot. That instantly cuts out the massive advantage of having up to six lists worth of spells per day.
Get rid of the AoO. In my opinion, this is probably the single most important change you can make. It's not that it's really that hard to get around, but psychologically, it's basically saying that the class is not intended to be in melee combat.
I'd actually allow the doubles to bring along their items if you're intending a focus on diverse melee, for a couple reasons. Holy symbols and basic spell components are cheap, and spellbooks don't matter in the one round the double will be present. Mundane characters, meanwhile, need their items, especially if they are below expected level for an encounter.
I might also say to dispense with some or all of the level reducing. I'd probably at least remove the thing where further doubles are progressively one level lower (which encourages having one main combat double, and using the rest more for utility). The baseline reduction of level as you advance is probably okay, since you can expect higher offense-optimization to make up for it, although you could even reduce it. Having it so a 20th level conduit gets 17th level doubles, and thus, 9th level maneuvers, could allow each double (well, three of them at least) to end up with an appropriately-awesome special move. I was somewhat terrified of the possible Five World Step, until I realized that every single big gun I chose for it was a full-round action and thus disqualified. Of course, if you were to do this, you would definitely need to cap spells.A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
World of Aranth
M&M 3e Character Guide
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2012-08-22, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
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- Cambridge, UK
Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Thank you so much for your reply! Your thoughts and ideas have been really helpful!
I've been thinking about this also, though it would be important to make it apply equally to psionics and other systems as well. Having a psionic ability of level X use up a slot of spell level X would probably work though. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
This ones a bit more tricky, you cant simple disallow an apponent any chance of an AOO as standard thats a pretty mega ability if you think about it. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
I do get what your talking about though.
The problem is you open the doorway for so many abuses if you allow items through, think of all the wonderous items those characters could bring in let alone the effective increase in the wealth you would have to spend on all those misc items. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
The best work arounds i can think of are:
a) Things forged from riftweave which replicate some of those much needed non-caster combatant buffs.
b) feats for either the conduit or her doubles which allow them to bring riftweave versions of items with them.
The first version of this class was actually writen so all doubles were of equal level. I may well revert back to this, but i'm not sure about 17th level... maybe. Once I'm happy i've sorted out the caster problem. Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Last edited by kanachi; 2012-08-22 at 03:15 PM.
OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-22, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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- Jul 2006
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Skipping Visionary as its not finished enough to peach.
Anyway, I'm gunna grab something to much before i get stuck into the...Last edited by kanachi; 2012-08-22 at 04:21 PM.
OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-22, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Dark Vessel
A hollow or concave utensil which is in need of a wash... hmm I cant see this wor-
Spoiler
Boldly you sought the power of flame. Now you shall witness it firsthand! ~ Firelord Magmus
Earth can be shaped, molded...you cannot! You are useless! Your kind has no place in my master's world. ~ Earthlord Obsidion[/center]
Dark Vessels are magicians, whether of inborn talent or learned skill, that have little to no respect for balance in the world. They seek to rearrange their world at their own whims or a hidden master's, and as they grow more powerful, can change it with a simple touch. Early in their career, they gain the ability to completely subsume an elemental and gain its abilities. Usually they specialize in an element to master - the most powerful of them attain the rank of Elemental Lord, signifying their absolute mastery over the element. Most Dark Vessels use pseudonyms, usually transliterated names from the elemental language that matches their mastery.
Holy crap! This is what happens if you become a curry addict.
On a serious note though... the fluff here is awesome. The image is also very bad ass indeed.
Pre game rule information stuff...
Spoiler
Adventures: Dark Vessels adventure to gain power and expand their influence. Usually this means they gain a flock of like-minded individuals they can direct, or they destroy and corrupt as much as they can. Some choose to be defilers, setting fire to forests and sinking islands, while others use more subtle approaches.
Characteristics: Dark Vessels are specialized in their elemental mastery, and can handle excursions to elemental planes with ease. Depending on their choice of mastery, they can also excel at melee or ranged combat.
Alignment: Almost all Dark Vessels are evil, as dominating the elements in such a reckless way leaves little for good intentions. Those few that are not evil are certainly of a neutral bent, though they can be either lawful or chaotic. Those lawful Dark Vessels see the elements as a right, while the chaotic ones tend not to care about them either way and use them when it is convenient.
Religion: While Dark Vessels tend not to be very religious in their quest for power, those that are revere deities of power, death, or destruction. They almost never join the ranks of the supplicants of elemental deities - it is considered an affront to the deity to attempt to control their element as the Dark Vessels do.
Background: Dark Vessels are typically made up of fanatic cultists with a lust for power, with the skill and devotion to excel. Those diplaying the skill and intentions are often approached by cults looking to recruit them for greater elemental beings, those that are outside the power of the Vessel to control. It is not often that these cults are known amongst the general populace except in terror.
Races: Races strongly gifted in magic without a penchant for doing good may find themselves with many Dark Vessel candidates among them. Those that are easily swayed by promises of power may also have an elemental cult within them that harbors Dark Vessels.
Other Classes: Dark Vessels most often work well with other "loner" classes - evil or neutral clerics of evil gods, rogues, or sorcerers. Wizards may see them as forcing magic with a hammer instead of working it with a quill, though they also may admire them for their devotion. Dark Vessels are almost always incompatible with Paladins or good-aligned Clerics, as their philosophies differ largely. Druids and other nature spellcasters are the exact opposite of a Dark Vessel and will clash often.
Role: Dark Vessels inflict damage, control enemies, and can handle certain types of traps. They are somewhat good at dealing with people through lies and propaganda.
Adaptation: Dark Vessels manipulate the elements to their benefit, forcing them to bow to their will or even consuming them in rituals. This can be changed to demons, spirits, or other forces, typically intelligent ones with some will to resist.
Very strong fluff entry. I like the fact that the flavour of class can be easily adjusted to have a different "victim" in mind.
Game rule information...
SpoilerGAME RULE INFORMATION
Dark Vessels have the following game statistics.
Abilities: A Dark Vessel's Charisma score affects its damage, ability to manipulate its element and subsume an elemental, and several other things. It is paramount to its effectiveness, while Dexterity and Constitution keep the Dark Vessel alive longer.
Alignment: Any Evil, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
Hit Die: d4
Starting Age: As cleric.
Starting Gold: As cleric.
Class Skills
The Dark Vessel's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Forgery (Int), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at First Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier
d4 hit points seems a bit harsh and i'm not sure why Forgery, hide and Move Silently are all here. Is there a sneaky infultration element to them?
Class Table...
Spoiler
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Corruptions
1st|+0|+2|+0|+2|Essence Bolt (1d6), Enslave Elemental|0
2nd|+1|+3|+0|+3|Subsume Elemental (Resistance), Drawn Power (1st)|0
3rd|+1|+3|+1|+3|Essence Bolt (2d6), Inflict Corruption|1
4th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Drawn Power (2nd)|1
5th|+2|+4|+1|+4|Essence Bolt (3d6), Elemental Path|2
6th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Subsume Elemental (Traits), Drawn Power (3rd)|2
7th|+3|+5|+2|+5|Essence Bolt (4d6)|3
8th|+4|+6|+2|+6|Planar Tear, Drawn Power (4th)|3
9th|+4|+6|+3|+6|Essence Bolt (5d6), Dominate Elemental (temporary)|4
10th|+5|+7|+3|+7|Drawn Power (5th), Elemental Adept|4
11th|+5|+7|+3|+7|Essence Bolt (6d6)|5
12th|+6/+1|+8|+4|+8|Subsume Elemental (Elemental Ability), Drawn Power (6th)|5
13th|+6/+1|+8|+4|+8|Essence Bolt (7d6), Corrupting Touch|6
14th|+7/+2|+9|+4|+9|Core Shatter, Drawn Power (7th)|6
15th|+7/+2|+9|+5|+9|Essence Bolt (8d6), Elemental Lord|7
16th|+8/+3|+10|+5|+10|Drawn Power (8th)|7
17th|+8/+3|+10|+5|+10|Essence Bolt (9d6), Dominate Elemental (permanent)|8
18th|+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Drawn Power (9th)|8
19th|+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Essence Bolt (10d6), Obliterate|9
20th|+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Essence Bolt (11d6), Elemental Ascendant|10[/table]
No dead levels and the table has that nice evenly distributed look to it which makes you feel as though your looking at a solidly built class.
Maybe consider upping its bab to medium?
Class features...
Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
SpoilerDark Vessels are proficient with all simple weapons and light and medium armor. While they are able to cast spells, the nature of their magic does not cause them to suffer failure chances.
Your probably better starting this off in light armour and advancing it to medium later on (like the war mage).
Still would would give medium armour a bit more love, which often gets ignored (in my games at least) sadly.
Essence Bolt (Su):
Spoiler
Dark Vessels first learn to command the elements by shaping raw energies into a damaging bolt. As a standard action, the Dark Vessel may launch a bolt up to 100 ft away that inflicts 1d6 damage for every 2 levels he has (up to 11d6 at level 20) with a ranged touch attack. The type of damage inflicted is chosen at the time of use; it can either be acid, fire, cold, or electric. While the Dark Vessel has an elemental subsumed (see below), the bolt has the following additional effects if its type matches the subtype of the elemental:
I really like this, it kind of takes the eldrich blast and cranks it up a notch in awesome.
Enslave Elemental (Su):
Spoiler
After shaping an Essence Bolt, Dark Vessels learn to utilize the same energies to summon and bind an elemental to their service. This elemental is a Small elemental (air, earth, fire, or water, your choice) that functions as a familiar, where the Dark Vessel's sorcerer or wizard level is equal to his Dark Vessel level. While enslaved, the elemental provides the Dark Vessel with increased resistance to harsh elements in the form of a permanent Endure Elements spell. The Dark Vessel does not lose XP if his elemental dies because it was Subsumed by his own ability. Unlike other familiars, the act of calling and binding an elemental is easier than attuning oneself to a creature, and thus can be done as a full round action. However, the Dark Vessel, no matter how powerful he is, can only have one elemental enslaved at a time.
This is a pretty cool ability and i like the fact you get Endure Elements. This feature fits the theme very well.
Subsume Elemental (Su):
Spoiler
At 2nd level, Dark Vessels learn how to absorb an elemental into their body, gaining the abilities of the elemental without diminishing their personalities. When a Dark Vessel first learns how to do this, they gain magical power and resistance from the elemental absorbed. A Dark Vessel cannot subsume an elemental with Hit Dice greater than twice his Dark Vessel levels.
Haha awesome class feature! I asume you can fule this with your own elemental as well right?
Drawn Power (Su):
Spoiler
Whenever the Dark Vessel has an elemental subsumed within his body, he gains the ability to cast certain spells as spell-like abilities. At 2nd level, he is able to use these spell-like abilities 1/day each. Whenever the Dark Vessel gains new spell-like abilities, he can use all previous levels of spell-like abilities once more per day, up to a maximum of 3/day (for example, when the Dark Vessel gains the ability to use 2nd level spell-like abilities, he can use his 1st-level spell-like abilities 2/day; when he gains access to 3rd, he can use all 2nd-level spell-like abilities 2/day, and all 1st-level spell-like abilities 3/day). The Dark Vessel's caster level is equal to his class level.
These are really cool. I really like the spells you offer.
Could i maybe recomend that you give summon (X elemental) to them at all its various levels. It could be a seperate class feature but it would be cool. I supose this would allow them to always have something they could consume of course, but thats not such a bad thing because at the moment that ability is kind of campaign setting dependant.
Inflict Corruption (Su):
SpoilerThe Dark Vessel's use of elemental magic is not a natural thing, and often causes corruptions in victims or recipients of it. These corruptions are often beneficial for the Dark Vessel and his allies, and potentially devastating for his victims. At 3rd level, and every odd level afterwards (and again at 20th level), the Dark Vessel may choose a new Corruption to add to his repertoire. Up to three times per day, when the Dark Vessel uses a spell-like ability that targets a single creature, attacks with a melee weapon or unarmed strike, or uses Essence Bolt, he may choose to add a Corruption to his attack. Multiple attacks (such as from high base attack bonus) only risk corruption once. Victims that take damage or suffer an effect from the ability or attack must make an additional Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Dark Vessel level + his Charisma modifier) or suffer the corruption. Corruptions are considered Alteration spell effects with indefinite duration; each instance of a corruption can only afflict a creature once, though it may suffer multiple corruptions. A creature already corrupted becomes slightly resistant to further corruptions; for each corruption a creature has, it gains a +1 bonus to its Fortitude save to resist suffering another. A corruption cannot reduce an ability score below 1 with the exception of the Twisted Body corruption.
Wow nice list of options. I would maybe consider upping the uses per day or construct some feats to allow you to do so... in fact this class could use a couple of nice custom feats.
Elemental Path (Su):
Spoiler
At 5th level, a Dark Vessel begins down the path to ascension. He must choose an elemental subtype (air, fire, water, or earth). He is able to influence naturally occurring elements of that type. By concentrating for 1 round, the Dark Vessel can crudely shape up to 5 cubic foot of loose earth, change the direction of a slow, shallow river, increase or decrease the speed of winds in the area by up to 10 feet, or snuff out or cause a fire to spread up to 20 feet away. In addition, he may use this ability to make a special ritual circle 10 feet in diameter which any Elemental suffers a -2 penalty on its saves against his Subsume Elemental and Dominate Elemental abilities.
Very cool indeed!
Planar Tear (Su):
SpoilerAt 8th level, a Dark Vessel can tear a small hole through planar walls into one of the elemental planes, creating an effect that imbues the area with elemental power. The area changes to roughly match the energy imbued in the area: an area imbued with fire energy becomes charred and smells of carbon, while an area imbued with water energy becomes damp and slippery; an area imbued with air energy becomes brighter, clean and slightly foggy (not enough to impair vision), while an area imbued with earth energy feels more cramped, becomes dusty and any walls or objects nearby take on a hewn stone appearance. This effect has a radius of 20 feet and functions similarly to a Desecrate spell with a duration of 1 hour per Dark Vessel level.
Creating the tear is a full round action, and enhances the area with a specific elemental subtype (air, fire, water, or earth, chosen at the time of use). All Charisma checks as part of turn attempts against elementals of the same subtype take a -3 profane penalty, and every elemental creature of the same subtype entering an empowered area gains a +1 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. An elemental of the correct subtype summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD. Within the area, elementals that are turned only run in fear for half the duration (5 rounds) and cannot be destroyed outright.
So they can they make elementals more powerful and then consume them at that level of increased power?
Dominate Elemental (Su):
Spoiler
Beginning at 9th level, once per day a Dark Vessel can attempt to Dominate an elemental as if by a Dominate Person spell. The DC for this ability is equal to 14 + his Charisma modifier and is a Will save. At 17th level, the duration of this ability becomes permanent and has a DC equal to 19 + his Charisma modifier. The Dark Vessel may only have one elemental dominated at a time.
Hehe, you can become micky mouse out of fantasia but with fire elementals.
Elemental Adept (Su):
Spoiler
At 10th level, the Dark Vessel becomes adept at manipulating elemental energies and can change the shape of his Essence Bolt into a 30' cone, a 60' line, or a 15' radius area. When shaped in such a way, the Essence Bolt requires a Reflex save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Dark Vessel levels + his Cha modifier) instead of a ranged touch attack, and victims take half damage on a successful save.
In addition, while the Dark Vessel has an elemental subsumed that matches the elemental subtype chosen with Elemental Path, he gains a bonus to damage with his Essence Bolt equal to the subsumed elemental's total Hit Dice, plus another bonus effect:
ooo... i really like this. I'm always a sucker for awesome methods of movement, your pandering to all my likes at the moment. Leaping through fires is particularly cool as well.
Corrupting Touch (Su):
SpoilerBeginning at 13th level, the Dark Vessel may corrupt with a simple touch. Three times per day, the Dark Vessel can make a melee touch attack against a creature to inflict them with a corruption, or touch the ground or an object touching the ground to produce the effects of his Planar Tear ability as a swift action.
Interesting ability and it offer more flexability.
Spoiler
Core Shatter (Su): At 14th level, whenever the Dark Vessel strikes a creature with an Essence Bolt whose damage type opposes the victim's elemental subtype (water opposes fire and earth opposes air), it suffers additional damage equal to half the Essence Bolt's original damage, as if it had vulnerability to that type. If the creature already has vulnerability to that damage type, it instead suffers double damage from the Essence Bolt.
A bit setting dependant but still very cool.
Elemental Lord (Su):
SpoilerAt 15th level, the Dark Vessel gains the ability to manipulate the elemental energies within his body to augment his powers or create new effects. To do so, he must subsume an elemental that matches the subtype chosen with Elemental Path and then suppress the effects of the Subsume Elemental ability for a short time. He can use any one of the following effects once per round as a free action:
Now thats a class feature with a bold claim in its name... and its lives up to it very well indeed.
Obliterate (Su):
Spoiler
At 19th level, the Dark Vessel can strike with such force that anything barring complete immunity cannot stop his elemental prowess. Creatures cannot make use of Improved Evasion against his elemental attacks, spell-like abilities and Essence Bolt, and all of his abilities that inflict elemental damage (electricity, fire, cold, and acid damage) ignore Resistance and Resist Energy spells and effects. In addition, as a full round action, the Dark Vessel may unleash a volley of four Essence Bolts. These bolts may be aimed at a single creature or multiple creatures. He may use Elemental Adept to change any of them into cones, lines, or area effects.
A good way to bypass may of the classes innate weaknesses and also add a good amount of flexibility to things. Nice feature.
Elemental Ascendant:
Spoiler
At 20th level, the Dark Vessel ascends and becomes the perfect fusion of elemental and flesh. He retains his old type, but may choose to be considered either his original type or an Elemental for the purposes of effects of spells. He may still be resurrected as if he were his original type (if it was capable of being resurrected). In addition, whenever the Dark Vessel uses his Essence Bolt to inflict damage that is the same type as the elemental subtype that he has subsumed (air, fire, water, or earth correspond to electricity, fire, cold, or acid, respectively), it automatically bypasses immunity and creates an area identical to a Planar Tear where it strikes.
Nice way to round things off, i like image of making your bolts explode into a Planar Tear when the strike.
Summary
I really rather like this class, its packed to the rafters with flavour and then proceeds to burn said building down with some pretty funky crunch.
I think the biggest problem facing the class is its that some of its abilities are quite setting dependant, but that something for a player and their dm to sort out.
If you get some free time I would be interested in seeing variants of this class using alternate fuel types other than elementals. Though obviously that is probably something you could do after the contest is over and you have more time.Last edited by kanachi; 2012-08-22 at 05:17 PM.
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2012-08-22, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
I'm not sure how. To be clear, I'm not saying the double should never provoke AoOs; just that the AoO specifically for summoning a double should be removed. If the double casts a spell or makes a ranged attack while threatened, it would still provoke (and risk being sent away before it completes its action), but if you just summon a double to make a melee attack, there's no better reason for you to risk damage and losing your action than for a barbarian or warblade to do so. Originally Posted by kanachi
I thought about that myself. I don't know if it would be overpowered in general use (you're limited to one set of items at a time, each double has lower WBL individually and has to spend a chunk on their personal offenses, etc). That being said, there are loads of ways to exploit items. Maybe something like, they arrive with Riftweave gear that duplicates any items they have, but the only magic abilities that are duplicated are those that are constantly active. You could describe it as, since the item is constantly active, its power can transcend the dimensions, but the link isn't strong enough to "reach over" and activate latent magic, or something like that.The problem is you open the doorway for so many abuses if you allow items through, think of all the wonderous items those characters could bring in let alone the effective increase in the wealth you would have to spend on all those misc items.
The best work arounds i can think of are:
a) Things forged from riftweave which replicate some of those much needed non-caster combatant buffs.
b) feats for either the conduit or her doubles which allow them to bring riftweave versions of items with them.
Yeah, I'm not sure myself that boosting the base level would be a good idea. Might be worth considering if casters are sufficiently curtailed, but who knows?The first version of this class was actually writen so all doubles were of equal level. I may well revert back to this, but i'm not sure about 17th level... maybe. Once I'm happy i've sorted out the caster problem.A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
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2012-08-22, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Arrr ok, sorry i get you. I misunderstood i thought you meant all AoO. lol Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
Your right this makes a lot of sense.
Maybe, though the fear of exploitation is hard to shake. It may simply be safer to think up what kind of items a non-caster double could possibly want Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
and offer them the chance to have such boons via an array of riftweave options (your weapon can come into being with a Special Ability = to +X, and other such things).
I'll think on it though.
Agreed, thanks for all you help on this by the way! Originally Posted by Quellian-dyrae
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2012-08-22, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
That could work, a sort of Vow of Poverty-esque deal. Except useful. Originally Posted by kanachi
No problem!Agreed, thanks for all you help on this by the way!A role playing game is three things. It is an interactive story, a game of chance, and a process in critical thinking.
If brevity is the soul of wit, I'm witty like a vampire!
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2012-08-22, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
right, so I've removed AoO when drawing a double and I've also added some stipulations to nerf magic using doubles.
Take a look and see what you guys think thus far.
I'm now thinking of making all doubles weigh in at the same level (equal to that of the best double the conduit currently has access to).OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-22, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
I actually struggled for the name, at first I considered anointed knight, but a knight without full bab? And since this class is slightly compensated by medium bab I switched the name. Originally Posted by kanachi
I promise to work a bit more on adaptation Originally Posted by kanachi
Surprisingly they lost sense motive in this last iteration as it fitted truthseeker pretty well. Originally Posted by kanachi
I still lack a good capstone ability at the moment I am contemplating having you build your own hero. And giving you a bonus if you choose to channel said hero (that hero would be yourself) Originally Posted by kanachi
Yep, forgot to change that from when I started to work on it. Originally Posted by kanachi
It now has an associated save too which makes the class more customizable, though you always get will save. And even if reflex is normally inferior to fortitude it fits a different archetype. Originally Posted by kanachi
You can choose listen, search and spot (if you want) and I am probably going to make it a one time choice, I feel that if I allow people to change it whenever they use ancestral tactics it might be too OTT. Originally Posted by kanachi
As a side note I also reduced (halved) the guidance points at high levels.
They are going to get flavor text, some might disappear (probably anointed intervention and anointed hero) since they might be a bit over powered and there are certainly enough abilities. Originally Posted by kanachi
Just clarified that it was once a day and increased the time required, to make it clearly an out of combat thing. Originally Posted by kanachi
Burning some incense while you start channeling the heroes? Originally Posted by kanachi
I try to convince myself that the limits on the class skill list and the fact that the anointed heritors are probably going to need knowledge (history) and whatever hero they are channeling lessens the actual skills available but it is of course strong (I am considering adding a clause to limit this to the class skills gained from your levels in anointed heritors specifically) Originally Posted by kanachi
I might try to tone it down a little once I feel that the class is finished, I have to say though that I don't fear having a hight tier 3 and later nerf it a little once we get some playtesting done with it. Originally Posted by kanachi
Really glad that you like the point it kicks in I moved it along the class. Originally Posted by kanachi
Yep, the fluff on that sucks, I have to improve it. Originally Posted by kanachi
I need to work on a cool capstone not been inspired lately Originally Posted by kanachi
Yep that helped to build the abilities. Originally Posted by kanachi
I didn't really know what weapon to give the laughing fool I almost picked the cutlass from stormwrack for a more pirate feeling arrh. Originally Posted by kanachi
Skill checks are OP but it is a small memento to the broken bardblade. Originally Posted by kanachi
Glad you like, I am quite fond of this one it is in fact one anointed heritor that became a hero so it will tie to the capstone (once it gets one). Originally Posted by kanachi
It is a scout role though I just realized that it lacks fluff Originally Posted by kanachi
Yep that's the barbarian. Originally Posted by kanachi
The paladin is a really embedded archetype at least on stories so it seemed necessary to have it filled. Originally Posted by kanachi
As a sidenote the six other anointed heroes that I want to build are:
-A "dragon" breathing fire, having scaly hide, and something related with gold/greed/hoards
-A "mage" archetype a savy hero opposed slightly to the power of Godspeaker probably using some low level spell like or psi like abilities.
-A "crafter" while probably have some abilities that replicate crafting or create stuff.
-A "tankie" character the hit me kind of guy. A mix of knight and crusaders typical abilities.
-A "poisoner" there is not a love for poisons in D&D and having an ancestral hero capable of pulling it off might fit a niche.
-A "flier" no hero seems to give good mobility (other than mounted) and it can be a good role to fit.
This will up the heroes to 18, that way the anointed heritor is not taking 9 of their available heroes and this combined with the several number of anointments will probably give a lot of options to the prospective anointed heritor.
I wouldn't be able of doing these without everyone's help, PEACHes and other homebrews have been really helpful. Originally Posted by kanachi
PS. Who want's to see a multiclass feat between this and the Champion?Last edited by God Imperror; 2012-08-22 at 06:55 PM.
Working on: Anointed Heritor PEACHes are welcome.
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2012-08-22, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
hmmm how about we look at this the other way around if we look at the last stages of the heroes journey (by Joseph Campbell) we come to the idea that at the end of their journey the hero returns with the knowledge, skill, boon or magic mcuffin they sort out and thereby improve the world of the common man. Originally Posted by God Imperror
You could reflect this by making an ability which does not make the character themselves better but instead inspires other they meet to begin their own such journeys. For example...
you could, at the start of each day, grant a number of creatures equal to your char modifier the entire first level of this class as a bonus level, complete with all its bonuses (bab, saves, special abilities... the lot). You could simplify some of the effects of this "level" by giving them a +2 bonus to all skill checks you have at least 1 rank in and +X max hit points. This bonus "level" is not an actual level however and does not increase their current real level.
Any good?
I would make it much less about what they do and more the kind of sensations and feelings one experiances when envoking such powers. It just helps ground you in the place of the characters mood and gives you something you can work off in role playing terms. Originally Posted by God Imperror
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2012-08-22, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Okay I'm going to be sending my players to Limbo on the 31st, and I know I want an encounter with githzerai bandits (Lv 4 and 6) and a single neraph (Lv 8 or maybe 9) so if anybody has some requests to be used for them let me know, since change seems to fit Limbo. The level 8 one should be able to take a few hits as it ought to survive at least one round from the party (2 shadow blade swordsages, a summoner druid, an unoptimized wizard, and possibly one more character) so not a squishy class.
Also not doing the Dimensional Conduit for this because, despite it being one of my favorites to come out of the contest so far, it'd multiply the workload of making a single NPC more than a full caster would and these are one time use NPCs most of which won't even have names. And yes this disclaimer is here mostly because it was my first choice till I realized why it was a bad one.Last edited by Zaydos; 2012-08-22 at 08:45 PM.
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2012-08-22, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Well, Jack of All Blades should be finished by then: not the strongest frontliner, but especially if you chose certain disciplines as the focused ones, it should do alright. Originally Posted by Zaydos
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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2012-08-22, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)Dwarf in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
To Zaydos:
I'm dying for any opportunity for the mime to be playtested. You could give one of the githzerai some unusual mix of abilities, like monk abilities and Invocations, or Improved Familiar and Maneuvers. Don't forget to use the Spell Mimicking ability.78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
I started my first campaign on a spelljamming vessel disguised to look like a terrestrial zeppelin.
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2012-08-22, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
The Everready is up, excepting the Cinereal Bastion stance it should be ready for PEACHing.
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2012-08-23, 01:13 AM (ISO 8601)Titan in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
For anyone who cares, the first 13 levels or so of the Jack of All blades have been essentially finalized, and the last 3 are probably good as well. Still have a few dead levels, and I'm toying with what to fill them with.
Possibly some sort of changeable feat like the Cameleon, but limited to fighter/warblade feats, or something.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
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2012-08-23, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
Totally understandable and thanks for the kind words :) Originally Posted by Zaydos
To be honest the Dimensional Conduit would probably work best as a BBEG.
I will probably work on making a few character builds. I've also been toying with an example encounter where you can have a face off against an evil Dimensional Conduit.OMFGWTF!!
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2012-08-23, 05:55 AM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Base Class Challenge Chat Thread II
I doubt i will get to it today as your a little ways down from where i am but i shall try to get to it in the next few days. Originally Posted by Techwarrior
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