General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Tavar]

So, the discussion of Lunars and their lacks got me thinking. Seems to me that besides the small charm selection, they don't have much to distinguish their charms from other exalts. This got me to thinking about what they have that's different. Well, they have Shapeshifting, but that's not going to be helpful in non combat or non stealth areas, and those two seem pretty covered. But that led me to the other thing that's different. Gift/fury charms. The former probably can't be addapted, seeing as how they're tied with DBT, which is all about combat. But the latter... Right now they're all tied with combat, but that's because the charm they key off of, Relentless Lunar's Fury, is about combat. Would it help matters to make a version that's about, say, social combat? Or something else? Obviously this would require expanding the fury-ok keyword to other charms, and probably making new charms to fix their lack of charms, but would it at least give them something to help set them apart?

[Sanguine]

So, game idea: Each and every mortal and Exalt was killed by the Great Contagion 2.0, except for 700 children, now aged 8-14. They are raised and taught by Dragon Kings in a distant manse hidden and secured from the various supernatural monsters that want to kill those children and groomed to inherit the Exaltations left behind.

Also, those children are responsible for repopulating Creation.

I would so play in that.

[The Rose Dragon]

I would so play in that.

Just to be clear, though, those children? They are still mortals. None of them Exalted yet, and almost everyone left alive (and ghosts) wants them dead.

It's not really meant to be an ordinary Exalted game.

[Cyborg Mage]

I swear one of those kids (Preferably one further into the aging process) will take that far too seriously. Bonus points if that person happens to be Abyssal.

[The Rose Dragon]

Take what far too seriously?

[Kyeudo]

So, the discussion of Lunars and their lacks got me thinking. Seems to me that besides the small charm selection, they don't have much to distinguish their charms from other exalts. This got me to thinking about what they have that's different. Well, they have Shapeshifting, but that's not going to be helpful in non combat or non stealth areas, and those two seem pretty covered. But that led me to the other thing that's different. Gift/fury charms. The former probably can't be addapted, seeing as how they're tied with DBT, which is all about combat. But the latter... Right now they're all tied with combat, but that's because the charm they key off of, Relentless Lunar's Fury, is about combat. Would it help matters to make a version that's about, say, social combat? Or something else? Obviously this would require expanding the fury-ok keyword to other charms, and probably making new charms to fix their lack of charms, but would it at least give them something to help set them apart?

Lunars already have two other "Fury" Charms that have no "Fury"-Ok Charms to go with them - Inevitable Genius Insight and Irresistable Silver Spirit. Expansions on these would be nice.

[Sanguine]

Just to be clear, though, those children? They are still mortals. None of them Exalted yet, and almost everyone left alive (and ghosts) wants them dead.

It's not really meant to be an ordinary Exalted game.

Yeah I understood that. I would still totally play in that game.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah I understood that. I would still totally play in that.

Just making sure. Another friend changed her mind after I made that clear.

[Cyborg Mage]

Take what far too seriously?

Sorry, forgot to quote. I mean the whole "repopulating Creation" thing.

[golentan]

So, odd-ish question. What would a world where *everyone* was a terrestrial exalt look like? Technologically, culturally, what have you.

I'm thinking they'd be able to maintain Shogunate level technology pretty reliably, probably rely on an all summoned workforce, never use anything flammable in construction work ever...

[Dragnar]

So, the discussion of Lunars and their lacks got me thinking. Seems to me that besides the small charm selection, they don't have much to distinguish their charms from other exalts. This got me to thinking about what they have that's different. Well, they have Shapeshifting, but that's not going to be helpful in non combat or non stealth areas, and those two seem pretty covered. But that led me to the other thing that's different. Gift/fury charms. The former probably can't be addapted, seeing as how they're tied with DBT, which is all about combat. But the latter... Right now they're all tied with combat, but that's because the charm they key off of, Relentless Lunar's Fury, is about combat. Would it help matters to make a version that's about, say, social combat? Or something else? Obviously this would require expanding the fury-ok keyword to other charms, and probably making new charms to fix their lack of charms, but would it at least give them something to help set them apart?

Well, lunars are supposed to be good at adapting. But at the moment, the adaptations they are actually capable of? Almost all combat related. What if instead of new fury charms, you gave them alternatives to DBT? Why limit them to just War Form when they could also have a Social Form, a Sorcerous/scolarly form(to be fair, I have no idea how that would work), etc. Instead of mastering one aspect of the game, they could shift their mastery around as the situation demanded.

[IcarusWings]

So, game idea: Each and every mortal and Exalt was killed by the Great Contagion 2.0, except for 700 children, now aged 8-14. They are raised and taught by Dragon Kings in a distant manse hidden and secured from the various supernatural monsters that want to kill those children and groomed to inherit the Exaltations left behind.

Also, those children are responsible for repopulating Creation.

Sounds pretty cool. Colour me interested.

[Drascin]

Well, lunars are supposed to be good at adapting. But at the moment, the adaptations they are actually capable of? Almost all combat related. What if instead of new fury charms, you gave them alternatives to DBT? Why limit them to just War Form when they could also have a Social Form, a Sorcerous/scolarly form(to be fair, I have no idea how that would work), etc. Instead of mastering one aspect of the game, they could shift their mastery around as the situation demanded.

There's been attempts to do precisely that kind of thing before in other boards, to my knowledge. They are usually drowned in "but shapeshifting is physical only! Mental altering Knacks are stupiiiiid!" cries.

[Xefas]

There's been attempts to do precisely that kind of thing before in other boards, to my knowledge. They are usually drowned in "but shapeshifting is physical only! Mental altering Knacks are stupiiiiid!" cries.

Do they not realize that being "smart" or "social" or anything really, is dependent on your physical brain? You could say that good social skills require life experience and intuition that needs to be learned, but memories are just neuronal signals stored in the brain.

And I think Lunars might be a bit better distinguished if they could shapeshift their own thoughts, memories, and emotions via messing with their brain.

[IcarusWings]

Plus you can always fluff it as them not only shifting their form, but also their instincts into those of a beast.

[Drascin]

Do they not realize that being "smart" or "social" or anything really, is dependent on your physical brain? You could say that good social skills require life experience and intuition that needs to be learned, but memories are just neuronal signals stored in the brain.

And I think Lunars might be a bit better distinguished if they could shapeshift their own thoughts, memories, and emotions via messing with their brain.

Indeed. Though I will admit I'm a bit stumped as to how the mental form would look. The Social form is easy - a totemic, awe-inspiring (humanoid or no) version of your spirit shape (think Aztec or Egyptian gods). But the mental one is less obvious.

And of course, deciding what else it should give. Mutations seem kind of silly to give for Social or Mental forms unless we also make a host of socially and mentally useful mutations to go with them, since the grand majority of mutations in canon right now are purely physical.

[Xefas]

Indeed. Though I will admit I'm a bit stumped as to how the mental form would look. The Social form is easy - a totemic, awe-inspiring (humanoid or no) version of your spirit shape (think Aztec or Egyptian gods). But the mental one is less obvious.

And of course, deciding what else it should give. Mutations seem kind of silly to give for Social or Mental forms unless we also make a host of socially and mentally useful mutations to go with them, since the grand majority of mutations in canon right now are purely physical.

Personally, I've never been a particular fan of plant&animal, I guess what you would call, "Nature" themes (although that term has weird semantics anyway). I'm also not really sure why Lunars have the animal theme. I'm also not sure why the animal theme is in a Celestial spot in the hierarchy.

My thoughts are that if I were going to have an Animal-Barbarian Exalt, they'd be another Terrestrial level Exaltation.

If I were to redesign Lunars from the ground up, keeping them in the place they are now, I'd completely scrap the animal-centric thing and go straight for "adaptation" and "chaos", which I think have a lot more to do with the Moon. It always struck me as odd that it went Sun -> Furries -> Stars -> Metals -> Elements. I'd prefer to emphasize the Moon portion a lot more.

Would they still be able to shapeshift into animals? Certainly. But only because those would be the easiest forms to mimic. Hell, I might start them out with animals + human shapeshifting instead of requiring a knack for the latter. And those wouldn't be considered "normal" to stay at. It would be "normal" to go up through the ranks, transforming into gods, demons, and behemoths, until you get to the apex where you're just making **** up and becoming new, weird, chaos-y lifeforms at Elder essence levels. Their "transcendence", in the same way that Infernals become people + primordials, so they get all the primordial stuff while gaining power from the fact that they're also people, would be to become like tiny mirrors of the Wyld, but with what was once a human center point, which allows them to ground themselves and gain more power than any mere Raksha/Unshaped/whatever the hell those unshaped+ were called.

And, along the way, you're getting charms that allow you to modify your forms, like giving them wings and claws and such. But also stuff like modifying your brain so you just don't have the part that makes you feel sad anymore. Or giving yourself a memory of loving parents that were murdered by a Deathlord so that you now have this insane drive to get vengeance on that Deathlord. Or giving yourself a second consciousness, different from your primary one, that only pops out to eat unnatural mental influence or to live through your horrible moments of pain, before putting you back in control so you don't have to experience those things.

Or, and I don't think the current Lunar charmset gets into this much if at all, but shapeshifting other people. That would make for some nice support or scary bad touch charms. Teach mortals the Melee skill by erasing their memories and making them think they've all been gritty hardasses their whole life. Then shapeshift the part of their brain that lets them feel pain, and the part them makes them feel empathy for living things, out of them and let 'em loose.

That's just me, though. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, just that's what I want out of Lunars. I think most people want badass furries, which is fine. I want transhumans that work all the way up to Cthulhu and then become trans-cthulhus.

[Lix Lorn]

(Snip)

That's just me, though. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, just that's what I want out of Lunars. I think most people want badass furries, which is fine. I want transhumans that work all the way up to Cthulhu and then become trans-cthulhus.

That sounds pretty awesome to me. It'd still be possibly to be a badass furry, after all.

[Reynard]

You can turn people into whatever-you-have-the-hearts-blood-of with a couple of knacks, but they're pretty crappy knacks.

[SurlySeraph]

The whole "shapeshift your miiind" concept makes a lot of sense. Charms or Knacks that let you temporarily shift around your Intimacies or even Motivation and Virtues would be interesting. I don't know Lunars enough to make an attempt, but I'd love to see a homebrew along those lines.

@Xefas: Dolorous Carnifex looks good; I wrote a couple comments on it.

So, game idea: Each and every mortal and Exalt was killed by the Great Contagion 2.0, except for 700 children, now aged 8-14. They are raised and taught by Dragon Kings in a distant manse hidden and secured from the various supernatural monsters that want to kill those children and groomed to inherit the Exaltations left behind.

Also, those children are responsible for repopulating Creation.

I would demand an explanation for how there's any Creation left. (Raksha, demons, and ghosts can't stop fighting long enough to wyld-ify or hellify or Shadowlands-ify it?) Speaking of which, I'd demand an explanation for why Creation didn't just become one big Shadowland, since everyone's dead.

And I might want to start as Half-Castes, for two reasons.
First, if you're all unawakened mortal children, you should logically die the instant you step outside, and so there wouldn't be as much latitude for rebellion, exploration, and awesomeness as I'd want. (I mean, you're kids destined to be awesome, some of whom may have ghosts or demons or whatnot whispering in your mind that you're destined to have power over them and you should come outside right now. You have to try to sneak out. It's the genre). Unless the hidden manse is truly massive and truly weird.
Second, having some Exalted-ish traits and/or a decent sense of who's going to Exalt as what would allow more for variety, cliqueishness, group rivalries, and the other middle-school-politics stuff you'd need. Plus it allows for more Shocking Swerve moments, where the nice kid with a shiny forehead who's always protecting his friends from bullies becomes a Slayer, the nerd who sits in a cobweb-filled room under the observatory writing flowcharts of possible events becomes a No Moon, the designated couple turn out to not be Solar and Lunar mates, etc.

Other than that, sounds good.

[The Rose Dragon]

I would demand an explanation for how there's any Creation left. (Raksha, demons, and ghosts can't stop fighting long enough to wyld-ify or hellify or Shadowlands-ify it?) Speaking of which, I'd demand an explanation for why Creation didn't just become one big Shadowland, since everyone's dead.

The Kukla did it. Also, only mortals and Exalted died - spirits, Jadeborn, Dragon Kings and such are still around to keep Creation safe (for very low values thereof).

First, if you're all unawakened mortal children, you should logically die the instant you step outside, and so there wouldn't be as much latitude for rebellion, exploration, and awesomeness as I'd want. (I mean, you're kids destined to be awesome, some of whom may have ghosts or demons or whatnot whispering in your mind that you're destined to have power over them and you should come outside right now. You have to try to sneak out. It's the genre). Unless the hidden manse is truly massive and truly weird.

The manse is massive and labyrinthine (it's bigger in the inside than the outside!). Also, you are surrounded by Dragon Kings dedicated to keeping you alive and safe. If you do manage to get out, you will probably Exalt immediately due to your awesome deed.

Second, having some Exalted-ish traits and/or a decent sense of who's going to Exalt as what would allow more for variety, cliqueishness, group rivalries, and the other middle-school-politics stuff you'd need. Plus it allows for more Shocking Swerve moments, where the nice kid with a shiny forehead who's always protecting his friends from bullies becomes a Slayer, the nerd who sits in a cobweb-filled room under the observatory writing flowcharts of possible events becomes a No Moon, the designated couple turn out to not be Solar and Lunar mates, etc.

Making them Half-Castes would actually prevent that, since they cannot Exalt as any Exalt type other than their parents' Exaltation (Solar and Abyssal Half-Castes might Exalt as Abyssals and Solars, respectively, but that's still not canon).

[SurlySeraph]

The Kukla did it. Also, only mortals and Exalted died - spirits, Jadeborn, Dragon Kings and such are still around to keep Creation safe (for very low values thereof).

The manse is massive and labyrinthine (it's bigger in the inside than the outside!). Also, you are surrounded by Dragon Kings dedicated to keeping you alive and safe. If you do manage to get out, you will probably Exalt immediately due to your awesome deed.

Good explanations on both counts. I do find it hard to imagine playing for more than a session without someone becoming hellbent on sneaking out, but that works - and if someone *does* manage, they have a chance of getting back alive, which is good. Plus space-warping and newly discovered hidden passages could allow for plenty of ongoing exploration in the manse, which is good.

Making them Half-Castes would actually prevent that, since they cannot Exalt as any Exalt type other than their parents' Exaltation (Solar and Abyssal Half-Castes might Exalt as Abyssals and Solars, respectively, but that's still not canon).

*checks*
"It is completely unheard of for a Half-Caste to Exalt as a different type of Chosen than his parent. Caste may differ, but the marks of destiny in the character’s blood has pledged her to the service of the Unconquered Sun, Luna, the Maidens or the Yozis even before she was born, and this cannot be changed."
Not even Solaroids Exalting as different kinds of Solaroids? I could have sworn I read something about a Solar Half-Caste becoming an Infernal. Scroll of Heroes, you are dead to me now more than ever!

Alright then. I'd still advocate for some hints at who'll Exalt as what and reasonably rapid increases in power, since I have a hard time imagining "You're trapped feeble mortal children" and "You're destined to be awesome and being trained in how" meshing well for more than a few sessions; certainly Awakened Essence and TMA should become available fairly soon. I'd also support the kids outnumbering the Dragon Kings and being fairly out of control - not Lord of the Flies level, at least at first, but certainly less regimented than a typical school.

[horngeek]

One Charm that makes sense with Lunars...

Commanded To Fly. Instead of outright going 'screw you' to mental influence, the Lunar instead turns a mind control of 'kill your Solar Mate' to 'kill your Solar Mate while juggling teacups and dancing the macarena' and then goes 'okay, that's just silly'.

Awesome, fits Lunars, and awesome.

Did I mention awesome?

In any case, that's the sort of Charm to mimic. Actually, a couple of Lunar Social Charms work well, mostly Manipulation ones. Give people your Intimacies, take on the mind of an animal of avoid a social attack... list goes on.

[Xefas]

O, great one, meschlum
I beseech thee with haiku
Raksha info, please

Assuming my prayer roll succeeded, is there a way for a Fair Folk to make some kind of soul, or soul-like thing, and give it to themselves? Such that if a charm were scanning people and checking "Does X have a soul?", it would register "Yes, this guy has a soul", without having to use some power to just fool or deny the charm wholesale?

[Teln]

I had a thought about exactly why no Lunars have ascended to Cthulhu-hood yet, despite having almost 5 alternate-calendar millennia to do the job in: It's the moonsilver tattoos that make it possible.

I envision the tattoos acting like the control rods in a nuclear reactor, safely preventing China Syndrome--which in this analogy means Chimerahood. The problem is, the rods are jammed in all the way. A catastrophic meltdown is completely and utterly impossible, but the tradeoff is that you can't get the reactor running. But with an operator that has enough training, you can take the rods out further and further before you start risking a meltdown.

You recall how in MoEP: Lunars, there are some Lunars who are convinced that the way to true power is by rejecting the Caste-fixing tattoos? They're all wrong, and the reason their experiments keep ending in disaster is because they're trying to fire up the reactor without any control rods whatsoever. Their predictable failures have spooked the other Lunars so badly that nobody's willing to shake up the status quo--and honestly, who can blame them?

[Mr.Bookworm]

I had a thought about exactly why no Lunars have ascended to Cthulhu-hood yet, despite having almost 5 alternate-calendar millennia to do the job in: It's the moonsilver tattoos that make it possible.

While what you're saying does sound like a neat story idea (or Motivation, for the Mad Scientist Lunar), the only reason a canon Cthulhu!Lunar isn't running around is because all of the Elders were given the tattoos. If Ma-Ha Suchi hadn't had his descent into Chimerism stopped, or if Lilith hadn't been captured...

Well, take a look at the Chimera Knacks, and extrapolate from there. There's an Essence 6 Knack that gives you near Deathlord-level immortality, and the Elders are higher Essence then that.

[meschlum]

O, great one, meschlum
I beseech thee with haiku
Raksha info, please

Assuming my prayer roll succeeded, is there a way for a Fair Folk to make some kind of soul, or soul-like thing, and give it to themselves? Such that if a charm were scanning people and checking "Does X have a soul?", it would register "Yes, this guy has a soul", without having to use some power to just fool or deny the charm wholesale?

(regains 1 willpower)

A challenging request, with a range of solutions, from the easy to the ludicrous.

- Easy:

Find a friendly ensouled being (mortals are easy, Faeblooded are convenient, Exalts are amusing)
Use Assumption of the Person's Heart to become a Wyld taint on your chosen carrier.
Share your powers with your carrier, granting them most of your abilities within Creation, albeit with lower Attributes and Abilities overall.
Scanning to establish whether your carrier has a soul will get the reply "Of course he does!". If you happen to be using a faeblood, you have a convenient excuse for any wyld energies the scanner might detect. Mortals are a lot easier to take complete control of, though.

- Slightly hallucinatory:

Use Spectral Transformation to take on the form of a ghost.
Anyone checking you for souls will establish that you most definitely are a Po (or Hun) soul.
Sadly, this fails if the sensor has high Occult. And if you touch cold iron.

If you can prod your GM into allowing an 'Emotional Transformation' charm, linked to Dreams and Passion, you can use it to fake being an ordinary mortal - and thus register as having a full soul if anyone looks.

- Rather convoluted:

Find a mortal, make it like you.
Use Assumption of Dreams and Passion to copy them exactly.
Use Assumption of the Person's Heart to link yourself to them.
Share your multiple iterations of the Small mutation with the mortal, so that they are tiny.
Swallow the mortal. Optionally, store the mortal in a Chancel inside your stomach.
If anyone tries to detect souls, switch and become tiny while the mortal grows to full size.
This is a variation on the first method with special effects that increase your odds of success. It also lets you use your full abilities most of the time.

If you're feeling creative, have a full range of mortals to copy hidden in your chancel, and swap between them. this does require a little time to rotate between bodies though (and maybe picking up a few Large mutations in order to swallow the full size 'spares').

- Over the top:

Be a Heroic Commoner Warrior or Worker with Birth 5 (the Heroic Commoner is the part that matters, you want Ring 5 and Sword 4) and Essence 3.
Find a mortal.
Apply Behemoth Forging Meditation over and over without making any obvious changes. Delusions like "The Fair Folk know what's best for me" are ideal.
Repeat the above until the mortal hits 10 mutation points. The mortal still has a soul (as it is a mutated mortal). Do NOT break its will and attune to it.
Grant your new toy all four Graces.
Open the mortal's Cup Grace (or any other, really) via Gaping Virtue Mouth.
You now face an ensouled being that is also a commoner Raksha. Employ social conflict (or shaping) to make it consent.
Apply Harmonious Primordial Spirit to your pet, embedding your Staff Grace.
You now own a being that knows and follows your every desire, is a (mutated and insane) mortal according to any tests applied, and has a soul.
Teach your pet Harmonious Primordial Spirit (this requires Essence 3)
Have your pet embed one of its Graces in you.
You now know everything your mortal pet desires, are utterly loyal to it, and have therefore attained two way telepathy over infinite distances.
Set off on a grand adventure as your pet, being a Fair Folk with a (severely mutated) soul.
If you die, learn Nature Eliminating Knife.
Destroy your Staff Grace.
As a Warrior friendly alternative, find out if breaking an Adjuration can destroy your Staff Grace. If so, do it.
Forge yourself a new Staff Grace.
Repeat the process.

- Custom:

Check if you can get a custom charm extension to Soul Consuming Hunger, letting you slowly dissolve it and 'hold' it in yourself. Possibly with Bottomless Dream Gullet involved somewhere.

[The Rose Dragon]

Would it be a bad house rule to allow Appearance 0 to count as your Essence maximum for purposes of intimidation, rather than a flat 5?

[Kyeudo]

Would it be a bad house rule to allow Appearance 0 to count as your Essence maximum for purposes of intimidation, rather than a flat 5?

It's essentially free Appearance dots is the problem. If the only time you are really going to be trying to get your way in social combat is through intimidation, getting Appearance 0 is a way to buff your social ability AND free up dots for other things. Giving away too many free dots would make it desirable long term.

[The Rose Dragon]

It's essentially free Appearance dots is the problem. If the only time you are really going to be trying to get your way in social combat is through intimidation, getting Appearance 0 is a way to buff your social ability AND free up dots for other things. Giving away too many free dots would make it desirable long term.

Well, it won't matter in most games, since they never reach Essence 6+. But at those games that do, Appearance 0 essentially means giving Attribute-based Exalts a means to screw you socially.

And besides, it only allows you to resist intimidation attempts anyway. You're still screwed against non-intimidation attacks.