General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Kyeudo]

Well, it won't matter in most games, since they never reach Essence 6+. But at those games that do, Appearance 0 essentially means giving Attribute-based Exalts a means to screw you socially.

And besides, it only allows you to resist intimidation attempts anyway. You're still screwed against non-intimidation attacks.

Appearance in general is poorly implemented. It is the god-stat of social combat in ways that exceed what Dexterity does for normal combat.

[The Rose Dragon]

I just had a weird idea about a high-Compassion Solar learning about the true nature of the Green Sun Princes and meeting one later.

Solar: "Who is a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Are you a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Yesh you are! Yesh you are! You are the cutest little baby Primordial!"

Green Sun Prince: "I am a monster of such indomitable power, I hold the might of the creators in my hands and my soul. My anima burns with the power of their king's heart, and nothing can stop in the path of my evolution."

Solar: "Aww, isn't he adorable? He is trying to make sounds."

Because as we all know, Green Sun Princes are baby titans and that's what they should be treated as: babies.

[Lix Lorn]

...why do I get the image of the Solar dying painfully moments later?

[Jokasti]

I just had a weird idea about a high-Compassion Solar learning about the true nature of the Green Sun Princes and meeting one later.

Solar: "Who is a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Are you a little cutey ickle baby Primordial? Yesh you are! Yesh you are! You are the cutest little baby Primordial!"

Green Sun Prince: "I am a monster of such indomitable power, I hold the might of the creators in my hands and my soul. My anima burns with the power of their king's heart, and nothing can stop in the path of my evolution."

Solar: "Aww, isn't he adorable? He is trying to make sounds."

Because as we all know, Green Sun Princes are baby titans and that's what they should be treated as: babies.

The Littlest Titan: A Tale of Struggle, Hope, and Leveling the Eastern Direction

[SurlySeraph]

Oh that reminds me. Kyeudo, I read through your social fix a couple days ago and while I'm currently too sleep-deprived to make very useful comments, here are some thoughts:
I'm not sure that splitting Intimacies into different categories by Virtue is a good idea; I don't think it adds enough to be worth the complication.
Kudos on making Socialize actually useful.
The effects for having your will broken are pretty harsh and seem hard to avoid, but that's probably as it should be.
Dismissal looks potentially too powerful; it seems like whoever has lower Manipulation + Socialize is pretty much screwed. I think you might have left something out, since the "If a dismissed character fails to successfully rejoin social combat before he fails his (Socialize) rolls, he is removed from social combat entirely" bit doesn't seem connected to a time limit or maximum number of rolls to rejoin he can attempt.
Entrapment seems like it could drag things out a lot, but since repeatedly attempting to Withdraw raises your MDVs vs Entrapment I'm not sure it would be a big problem.
I'm not sure linking Intelligence to Dodge MDV makes sense. Partly because many of the smartest people I know are completely incapable of ignoring misinformed statements, partly because I'm not sure Int should be that valuable in social combat. Parry MDV looks good, though.
Alarm bells went off for me when I saw the phrase "social soak," but on further thought using the virtue you're playing on as the base damage and the opposed virtue as soak is a great idea. This does seem to leave room for arguing over which Virtue most opposes the attacker's intent; you might want to say that if the player can justify it it's probably fine, or that the ST has say, or something at least.
I agree that Appearance is too much of a social god-stat, but I think you may have gone too far in the opposite direction, making Appearance mostly pointless and Manipulation important for everything.

[Kyeudo]

I'm not sure that splitting Intimacies into different categories by Virtue is a good idea; I don't think it adds enough to be worth the complication.

I'm trying to keep Conviction from being another of those things that you always need to max, since this fix makes your Virtues into damage, soak, and health levels. Splitting up the Intimacies across the Virtues makes compelling certain types of behavior harder on some characters than others.

The effects for having your will broken are pretty harsh and seem hard to avoid, but that's probably as it should be.

Think of it in terms of scenes. It will take the average Exalt twelve scenes of fighting his own Intimacies to hit 0 Willpower and then he has about two weeks to get back up to full Willpower. Stunts work really fast at getting you Willpower and then Duties and Loyalties get you additional sources of Willpower gain.

Dismissal looks potentially too powerful; it seems like whoever has lower Manipulation + Socialize is pretty much screwed. I think you might have left something out, since the "If a dismissed character fails to successfully rejoin social combat before he fails his (Socialize) rolls, he is removed from social combat entirely" bit doesn't seem connected to a time limit or maximum number of rolls to rejoin he can attempt.

The idea is that characters trying to escape a dismissal need to make opposed rolls to get back in. They only can attempt their Socialize in rolls before they just are taken out of the conversation entirely. It's sort of a social grapple, which means they are as hard to escape as a real grapple.

Entrapment seems like it could drag things out a lot, but since repeatedly attempting to Withdraw raises your MDVs vs Entrapment I'm not sure it would be a big problem.

The whole point of Entrapment is to draw things out a bit. If someone is brought into social combat and doesn't want to cede anything, their best move is to spam the Withdraw action. His opponents then need to spam Entrapment and flurry their social attacks with it to actually try to get their point across before their quarry escapes.

I'm not sure linking Intelligence to Dodge MDV makes sense. Partly because many of the smartest people I know are completely incapable of ignoring misinformed statements, partly because I'm not sure Int should be that valuable in social combat. Parry MDV looks good, though.

I was tired of Willpower making your Dodge MDV your best MDV always and giving social Lunars and Alchemicals the shaft. I chose Intelligence because all of the existing Dodge MDV interacting Charms for Lunars and Alchemicals are based on Intelligence.

Alarm bells went off for me when I saw the phrase "social soak," but on further thought using the virtue you're playing on as the base damage and the opposed virtue as soak is a great idea. This does seem to leave room for arguing over which Virtue most opposes the attacker's intent; you might want to say that if the player can justify it it's probably fine, or that the ST has say, or something at least.

Good point. I'll get that into the next draft.

I agree that Appearance is too much of a social god-stat, but I think you may have gone too far in the opposite direction, making Appearance mostly pointless and Manipulation important for everything.

There didn't seem to be an acceptable compromise with Appearance. If I left it doing things the way it used to, it was godlike in power in the Social arena. Making it work like the other Attributes leaves it pathetic, but at least it isn't the alpha and omega of social stats anymore. If you have a compromise, I'm more than willing to listen.

[knightMARE]

Infernals can become primordials once they get to high enough essence. From what I've heard, alchemicals will become cities. Do other exalt types have special things that happen to them at high essence?

[The Rose Dragon]

Infernals can become primordials once they get to high enough essence. From what I've heard, alchemicals will become cities. Do other exalt types have special things that happen to them at high essence?

Solars get to stay Solars, which is as good as you can get. Terrestrials may become some undefined different thing when they reach Essence 9 and buy that medicine Charm 5 times. Abyssals can bypass the Neverborn in their pursuit of Oblivion and become direct avatars of destruction and murder. Sidereals get more esoteric Sidereal Martial Arts as they go. Lunars... well, Lunars get bigger animal shapes.

[Xefas]

Infernals can become primordials once they get to high enough essence. From what I've heard, alchemicals will become cities. Do other exalt types have special things that happen to them at high essence?

Officially:
Solars can also become Primordials if they really want to (they typically don't).

Semi-officially:
It's also hinted at in Dreams of the First Age that Terrestrials that reach Essence 10 and buy "Transcendent Gaian Harmony" five times might reach some kind of never-before-seen apotheosis into a higher form of being.

Psuedo-officially:
There exists a legendary quote. Somewhere. Somewhere, there is a developer that says definitively that every kind of Exalted gets the option to transform into something decidedly inhuman at some point. Everyone gets the chance to transcend to a higher state.

I make pilgrimages into the internet to find this quote almost daily.

[Kylarra]

I'm always amused by high essence Lunars being singular mass-combat units of magnitude by themselves.

[tonberrian]

I make pilgrimages into the internet to find this quote almost daily.

Tell me when you find your Shining Answer quote.

[Xefas]

Tell me when you find your Shining Answer quote.

Oh, I shall. And then I'll finally be able to post my Sidereal "Screw the maidens, hack the Loom of Fate, throw off the artificial limiters put on your charm set to keep Sidereals from accidentally breaking causality and the universe, and then transcend into a giant living constellation that exists as a manifest embodiment of Creation's physics engine" charm tree.

EDIT: Also, OH CRAP, I forgot to thank meschlum. Thank you for all the raksha advice. I'm in the process of making a character with that info to hopefully post in the repository once its done.

[Kris Strife]

I just realized something. Kingdom Hearts takes place in Creation.

Spoiler

Show

Key Blade wielders are Solar exalts. The Key Blades are Glorious Solar Sabers, Strike Raid is Iron Raptor Technique, and the blasts they can shoot out are Blazing Solar Bolts, etc. Sora's a Dawn, Riku has Terra's exaltation shard, which became corrupted and is now being redeemed... The Key Blade War was an apocalyptic battle between the various Exalts that shattered Creation, leaving only scattered pockets of existence, which is the various worlds you go to.

Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc are all Beastmen or have Wyld Mutations. Nobodies are high essence ghosts, Heartless are demons/akuma.

[Drascin]

By the way, now that we're talking about Raksha - am I understanding Imposition of Law wrong? I mean, it talks about how "the vulnerability to Stunts is a unique flaw of invulnerability" - but as I'm reading it, the thing does not allow you to perfectly defend at all. In any rolls that aren't attack, it's not "automatic pass the roll", it's "add a single automatic success", isn't it? Success as in, the stuff that the Second Excellency gives you by the boatload? What's there requiring a Flaw of Invulnerability?

[The Rose Dragon]

A single automatic success after external penalties, actually. Not that it helps defense, it not being a rolled trait, but it still allows you to succeed despite an external penalty of -26.

[IcarusWings]

I just realized something. Kingdom Hearts takes place in Creation.

Spoiler

Show

Key Blade wielders are Solar exalts. The Key Blades are Glorious Solar Sabers, Strike Raid is Iron Raptor Technique, and the blasts they can shoot out are Blazing Solar Bolts, etc. Sora's a Dawn, Riku has Terra's exaltation shard, which became corrupted and is now being redeemed... The Key Blade War was an apocalyptic battle between the various Exalts that shattered Creation, leaving only scattered pockets of existence, which is the various worlds you go to.

Mickey, Donald, Goofy, etc are all Beastmen or have Wyld Mutations. Nobodies are high essence ghosts, Heartless are demons/akuma.

Must... resist... urge... to run... KH... Exalted Game...

Argh! It's no use! You may be able to expect this game to appear in the Recruitment Boards soon enough (along with Harry Potter-inspired-game too).

[Lix Lorn]

Must... resist... urge... to run... KH... Exalted Game...

Argh! It's no use! You may be able to expect this game to appear in the Recruitment Boards soon enough (along with Harry Potter-inspired-game too).

Must play!
...
Despite not playing KH!

[Drascin]

A single automatic success after external penalties, actually. Not that it helps defense, it not being a rolled trait, but it still allows you to succeed despite an external penalty of -26.

Still, makes the writeup confusing. Why does it give perfect infallible precision in attacks, but mild to low competence everywhere else? And why the hulabaloo about Flaw of Invulnerability when there is nothing invulnerable here?

Grumble grumble friggin' Exalted writers...

Must... resist... urge... to run... KH... Exalted Game...

Argh! It's no use! You may be able to expect this game to appear in the Recruitment Boards soon enough (along with Harry Potter-inspired-game too).

KH in Exalted?

...well, I guess there are some similarities. Sora dies in two hits despite being having the firepower of a small country's army, there's about three characters with an ounce of common sense in between almost all games, and there are so many world-ending plots going on at once that you need a flowchart to keep up .

Though Mickey would have to be a Solar as well, at the very least, not a simple standard beastman. Mickie and Minnie can cast Holy in a game where Holy is an indicative of being seriously freaking pure and Light-y and all that jazz - got to count for something (funny idea - elevated Mice of the Sun? He is a mouse, after all! ). Sora is clear Solar, while Riku looks like an Abyssal, but quacks like an Infernal, so, tossup. Maleficent is evidently an Ebon Dragon/Malfeas Infernal (probably up enough in the trees to have the "must backstab everyone even when it will end up being to my detriment". Because, dammit, Maleficent) while Xehanort is... kind of what the Deathlords want to be when they grow up, really

[Tavar]

Well, we've had high essence alchemical combat, but I think I've just found high essence Solar Social combat.

Here.

[TheCountAlucard]

So, Byron Ferguson as an Exalt... my guess is, five dots in Archery, a bunch of Charms, and a three-dot Specialty in Trick Shots.

[Jokasti]

Officially:
Solars can also become Primordials if they really want to (they typically don't).

Semi-officially:
It's also hinted at in Dreams of the First Age that Terrestrials that reach Essence 10 and buy "Transcendent Gaian Harmony" five times might reach some kind of never-before-seen apotheosis into a higher form of being.

Psuedo-officially:
There exists a legendary quote. Somewhere. Somewhere, there is a developer that says definitively that every kind of Exalted gets the option to transform into something decidedly inhuman at some point. Everyone gets the chance to transcend to a higher state.

I make pilgrimages into the internet to find this quote almost daily.

I heard Solars don't bother going through Apotheosis because there is no Solar+, so Primordializing would just limit you further based on your Excellency etc.

[Kyeudo]

I don't like the idea of apothesis in general, as it implies there is something more awesome than being an Exalt.

[Xefas]

I don't like the idea of apothesis in general, as it implies there is something more awesome than being an Exalt.

Is being a Heretic Titan lame because you're no longer an Exalt? Absolutely not, because you're still an Exalt. Sure, we have an example that Infernals and Solars can become Primordials, but that's a step backward so they don't do it if they know any better (keeping in mind that player characters don't have perfect information; canon-wise GSPs know they can become Yozi. They don't even know that Heretical charms exist, much less the Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger tree).

But, we have an example of the opposite. When you go the Devil-Tiger route, its not the Exalt part that you get rid of, it's the human part. You become Titan + Exalt. Solars, Sidereals, Lunars, and Terrestrials could all have a similar option, where they become Something + Exalt.

I see this complaint a lot, but I think its a clear example of a fallacy of false dichotomy. Yes, there is nothing better than being an Exalt, but there is something better than being human.

[The Rose Dragon]

Is being a Heretic Titan lame because you're no longer an Exalt? Absolutely not, because you're still an Exalt. Sure, we have an example that Infernals and Solars can become Primordials, but that's a step backward so they don't do it if they know any better (keeping in mind that player characters don't have perfect information; canon-wise GSPs know they can become Yozi. They don't even know that Heretical charms exist, much less the Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger tree).

But, we have an example of the opposite. When you go the Devil-Tiger route, its not the Exalt part that you get rid of, it's the human part. You become Titan + Exalt. Solars, Sidereals, Lunars, and Terrestrials could all have a similar option, where they become Something + Exalt.

I see this complaint a lot, but I think its a clear example of a fallacy of false dichotomy. Yes, there is nothing better than being an Exalt, but there is something better than being human.

If you are no longer human, you can no longer sustain an Exaltation. Green Sun Princes who become proto-titanic-Exalts are still human (though very powerful ones).

The reason Green Sun Princes get to transcend (in canon, that is) is because they start out limited by the capabilities of Primordials, who, while possessed of a lot of XP, are otherwise less powerful and capable than Solar Exalted of the same amount of XP (which is, again, a lot). They transcend it by creating their own thematic Charm set, not by losing their humanity. Solars have no such limitations - they are only held back by their Ability ratings and permanent Essence. That's why Solars don't get to transcend - there is no "up" to go to.

[meschlum]

Still, makes the writeup confusing. Why does it give perfect infallible precision in attacks, but mild to low competence everywhere else? And why the hulabaloo about Flaw of Invulnerability when there is nothing invulnerable here?

Grumble grumble friggin' Exalted writers...

You've got part of your answer right there. I mean, besides the comments on the writers. In 1e, all defenses were rolled - so Imposition of Law helped you attack and defend. Plus, if your GM allowed the winner of an attack / defend rolloff to hit (i.e. counterattack if the defender), things got very scary very fast.

IoL only gives one net success, so it's mostly ownership of a Big Stick that gives massive combat advantage. If you want protection from damage, look at the Bastion of the Self (Heart) charm - same stunt vulnerable immunity, applies to all pain coming your way.

Of course, because the Exalted writers Do Not Approve of the Fair Folk (it seems), Bastion of the Self is now ruled to fail if the attacker uses an Excellency - so if you just put 1 mote into attacking, a Charm that otherwise makes you immune to terminal velocity impacts with a giant propeller will fail.

Ahem. Reining in the rant.

There are a few areas in 2e where opposed rolls occur, hence IoL might inherit a Flaw of Invulnerability that way. Specifically, Picking Pockets requires an opposed roll, so IoL means automatic theft occurs, even on the most potent Exalts and gods. It's really borderline and friendly reading of the text, I will grant.

That said, there are Specialties in Dodge which can technically be augmented by IoL, so while I wouldn't allow a single iteration of IoL to provide 'perfect' attacks and parries, I'd allow it to provide one or the other.

And inward facing oneiromancies mean that you have as many versions of IoL running as you want, anyway.

[Xefas]

If you are no longer human, you can no longer sustain an Exaltation. Green Sun Princes who become proto-titanic-Exalts are still human (though very powerful ones).

This has been debated a lot on the White Wolf forums, and the only thing I can figure is that the word "human" in the statement "You must be human to be an Exalt" is essentially meaningless.

A Lunar can be a fox who is also an Exalt. Or she can be a demon who is also an Exalt. Infernals can be giant living sandstorms who are also Exalts. Alchemicals are never human, who are also Exalts. Solars can use a medicine charm to strap on enough mutations to be a giant spider-crab-dragon and still be an Exalt.

That ship has sailed. When Infernals are immortal, cosmically powerful beings that have absolutely no trait in common with a human, then they aren't human. And they're still allowed to be an Exalt.

[The Rose Dragon]

This has been debated a lot on the White Wolf forums, and the only thing I can figure is that the word "human" in the statement "You must be human to be an Exalt" is essentially meaningless.

A Lunar can be a fox who is also an Exalt. Or she can be a demon who is also an Exalt. Infernals can be giant living sandstorms who are also Exalts. Alchemicals are never human, who are also Exalts. Solars can use a medicine charm to strap on enough mutations to be a giant spider-crab-dragon and still be an Exalt.

That ship has sailed. When Infernals are immortal, cosmically powerful beings that have absolutely no trait in common with a human, then they aren't human. And they're still allowed to be an Exalt.

Alchemicals are human. Lunars who gain other shapes are still human. The same with Infernals.

Humanity has nothing to do with your physical appearance and everything to do with the way your soul is built. As long as you are capable of sustaining an Exaltation, you are human. The moment you stop being human, you stop being an Exalt.

[Xefas]

Alchemicals are human. Lunars who gain other shapes are still human. The same with Infernals.

Humanity has nothing to do with your physical appearance and everything to do with the way your soul is built. As long as you are capable of sustaining an Exaltation, you are human. The moment you stop being human, you stop being an Exalt.

Alright. Let me rephrase it then.

Is being a Heretic Titan lame because you're no longer an Exalt? Absolutely not, because you're still an Exalt. Sure, we have an example that Infernals and Solars can become Primordials, but that's a step backward so they don't do it if they know any better (keeping in mind that player characters don't have perfect information; canon-wise GSPs know they can become Yozi. They don't even know that Heretical charms exist, much less the Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger tree).

But, we have an example of the opposite. When you go the Devil-Tiger route, its not the Exalt part that you get rid of, it's the human (every human trait possible except for your soul such that you're functionally a different kind of being but technically still human) part. You become Titan (with a human soul so you're technically still human even though you're functionally different in every way) + Exalt. Solars, Sidereals, Lunars, and Terrestrials could all have a similar option, where they become Something (that is still technically human but functionally different in every other way) + Exalt.

I see this complaint a lot, but I think its a clear example of a fallacy of false dichotomy. Yes, there is nothing better than being an Exalt, but there is something better than being human (having all human traits except for a soul, which you'll keep so you're technically still human even though you're functionally different in every way that matters).

[Kyeudo]

Once you cease to be human, you cease to be interesting as a character.

[The Rose Dragon]

There is nothing else that matters but the soul in Exalted for classification as a human. Look at the beastmen, for example. They are still human, even though they might have eight legs, no head and tentacles for arms. As long as they have a hun soul and a po soul attached together, they are human. There are other beings that look human, act human and otherwise function as human, but are not human because they do not have the right soul.

The limits cast aside by Green Sun Princes are not that of humanity, it's that of being a Primordial. It's like having the best hardware of the world but being limited to DOS for your computing needs. Heretical-keyworded Charms just allow you to upgrade your operating system. Solars already come packaged with the best hardware and operating system. What are you gonna transcend to?