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2011-01-25, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Wolf Claw and Storm Bolter (38 Points ea). One with a Power Fist. Everything else is just too expensive.
Wolf Claw and Storm Shield (53 Points ea) is great when you have more points to spend. If you're thinking of anything more expensive than this, you're better off with Thunderwolves.
Throw in Heavy weapons to suit.
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2011-01-26, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
And Guard will just blow your Rhinos to smithereens.
Played a 2v2 game last night, 1000 points per player. Space Wolves and Guard (my side) against more Space Wolves and Chaos Undivided with Abaddon. (In 1000 points. Yeah.) Seize Ground mission, Dawn of War deployment. The SW player on the other side likes his Loganbomb (Logan Grimnar, Arjac Rockfist, and three Wolf Guard Terminators in a drop pod), so we, having gotten the second turn, just kept everything in reserve so he had to drop in on nothing, choosing to land near our objective. We're playing in a Planetstrike campaign and have power stations and I was fielding an Astropath, so we got such a large bonus to reserve rolls that our stuff all automatically came in on the second turn, so I just rolled in my Executioner across from the aforementioned Loganbomb and proceeded to do what an Leman Russ Executioner does to Terminators. It was a fairly easy win after that; we just bum-rushed Thunderwolves, two Chimeras full of troops, my partner's Iron Priest (who is on a Thunderwolf mount), my LR battle tank, and a squad of Grey Hunters at their objective, basically putting out so many units to contest that Abaddon couldn't possibly assault them all and the Obliterators he also fielded couldn't shoot them all. (There was also a unit of Berzerkers, but my battle tank did a number on them before the Thunderwolves finished the job.) The allied Space Wolves suffered fairly horrendous casualties, considering, but I managed to get through without losing a single model, though it was a close thing. It also marked the very first game in which I fielded an Executioner without it getting destroyed before game end, though it did suffer a penetrating hit and ended the game stunned.Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2011-01-26 at 07:45 AM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-01-26, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Nice Job! That is good news that your Leman Russ survived to see the end of the game for the first time! I always hate it when mine dies...it makes me very sad...
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2011-01-27, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Indiana
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Yeah. Planning the following list for next week. The campaign is a fee event sponsored by the game store, with a $120 pot, and my partner and I aim to win it. As alluded to, he's playing Space Wolves, and he's very good at it. We've elected to attack a territory held by allied Guard and Eldar next week. My preliminary list:
SpoilerCampaign list 2
1000 points
Company Command Squad - 185
-Medi-pack, veteran lascannon team
-Astropath
-Chimera dedicated transport
Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport
Veteran Squad - 155
-Three flamers
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer, extra armor
Veteran Squad - 125
-Forward Sentries
-Veteran lascannon team, sniper rifle
Leman Russ Battle Tank - 185
-Lascannon, heavy bolter sponsons
Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons
I've sent it to my partner, who is building his list to complement mine; we plan to use the Chimeras with short-ranged weapons and the Demolisher (maybe, depends on whether we succeed on a Command Bastion roll and give it Scouts to outflank with) as a moving wall to screen his Thunderwolves.
Related question: Can units from allied armies board each other's transports? Specifically, can Logan Grimnar give some Long Fangs Relentless followed by them getting on a Chimera and rolling forward spewing missiles the whole way?Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2011-01-27 at 10:59 AM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-01-27, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
I don't think there are any rules governing that - Warhammer Fantasy has some rules for games with more than one player on each side, but 40k pretty much doesn't - but I'm pretty sure it should not be allowed, because it opens the way to all sorts of broken shenanigans. In fact, I'm of the opinion that beneficial effects that should affect all friendly units should be restricted to the army using them, or else it gets very broken very quickly (ever seen an Imperial Guard tank-line protected by an Ork Big Mek's Kustom Forcefield? It's neither a pretty sight, nor a fun game for the people forced to go up against it...).
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2011-01-27, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Likewise, I once had a Farseer with Fortune join a unit of Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators in an allied game. They just. Didn't. Die.
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2011-01-27, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
When I've played team games, your beneficial (and hindering) effects only affect your army. You can coordinate, but for all intents and purposes, you are on your own, and you just happen to have one or more players in the game that you don't attack and who won't attack you.
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2011-01-27, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
It's a question of wording. A rule might read as all friendly units within, say, 18". In this case, it would affect your allies just fine. However, if it was the big mek field (this is just an example, I don't own the codex.) and it read all units in your army within 18", it wouldn't affect your allies, obviously.
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2011-01-27, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Av by Smuchmuch
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2011-01-27, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Planet Donegal
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Astorath's Red thirst affect does... It's specifically in the codex as affects all Blood Angels on the table, but it does make it very clear it means that..
Speaking of Blood Angels, I tried the store's Stormraven today...
It was my fault it died first shot, to a drop pod Multi Melta Dreadnought as I forgot it's Ceramite plating, but still, I was hoping for a little better than that.
"What's in this empty box ?"
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2011-01-27, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
If both teams agrre withe the rule for getting into the transports then I don't see why not...also people might throw things at you if you put that much cheese onto one table...just remember that if both teams agree and it isn't against the rules in the first place but is in the gray area, then and only then is it ok.
Last edited by Craftworld; 2011-01-27 at 06:51 PM.
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2011-01-27, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
People keep saying not to use veterans with flamers, so I have to ask: How else do you plan to get sufficient fire onto the board? Regular infantry squads can take only one flamer, and storm troopers can take two and presumably shouldn't for the same reason as vets. Normally those veterans would also have a heavy flamer, but since it's acting as a mobile wall for T-wolves (and an Iron Priest on a thunderwolf!), it is imperative that it keeps moving, so I traded it for extra armor.
Last edited by Renegade Paladin; 2011-01-27 at 07:20 PM.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-01-27, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
While reasonable, in my experience this approach leads to this:
- Team A makes such a proposal.
- Team B wants to be sportsmanlike/doesn't care all that much/is generally open towards proposals, because they want everyone to have fun, so they agree.
- Team A has a list designed to take full advantage of this rule, team B, not having even known beforehand such a rule would be in place, does not
- Team A proceeds to mercilessly stomp team B into the ground.
I would know, I've been in the role of team B often enough...LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
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2011-01-27, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- ^ Creds to Lord Raziere
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Things like Tally of Nurgle Marines and KFF'd Rhinos make Razorbacks make DCGFTW a sad panda.
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2011-01-27, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Hellhound?
Nah, I think your list looks solid. Concidering you go up against Eldar/Guard the flamers can be devastating.
And I would keep the medi-pack, you only have three units execpt the commans squad so a regimental standars is not that important. And feel no pain will help you if your transport get's blown up.
That's just my two cents.
Edit: I just realised. You have an Astropath but you're not sure that your Demolisher will be allowed to use the Scout rule? If that's the case I would ditch the Astropath for something else (not sure what, maby a Master of ordnance?).Last edited by Lowkey Lyesmith; 2011-01-27 at 08:56 PM.
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2011-01-27, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
I feel that each army's abilities should affect the other's, and that both players know this prior to constructing their army lists.
Is a KFF tank-line better than Fortuned Hammernators? Let's find out!I am the golden shadow. I am the Ninja Chocobo
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2011-01-27, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
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2011-01-27, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
I'd definitely suggest getting a Hellhound/Bane Wolf if you want something with a template weapon. A Hellhound would be able to cover more models, but a Bane Wolf can move farther and fire both its weapons, as well as deal more effectively with the Eldar in power armor.
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2011-01-27, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
as far as what can effect each other between 2 armies in a 2v2 (or more game) I think it may be a good idea to base some of that off of the Warhammer ally rules. For those of you who have no Idea what I am talking about I will give a quick idea of the rules (very rough since I am away from book)
Allies are split into:
trusted allies: these are normally the same race or general alignment i.e. SM and Guard, or CSM and Deamons
Suspicious allies :These are armies which may ally in some situations but are not necessarily the best of friends i.e. Imperial and Eldar, DE and Eldar, Tua and Imperial
disparate Allies: These are armies which generally hate eachother and make little sense as an Ally and in a fluff respect would mean the two armies have little other choices i.e. SMs and CSM, Deamons and Eldar (ok that one I think should be worse but the system only goes this bad )
Depending on what kind of ally you are depends on what benefits you can have ranging from characters joining units, magic dice being split, fleeing through units ect.
Now with 40k I would translate some of the rules so that
-if a character can join a unit (i.e. you are trusted enough) you can embark a vehicle of your ally (since it is sort of the opposite of a character joining a unit instead a unit joins a vehicle )
-if you can use eachothers magic dice you can use eachothers beneficial equipment (like KFFs)
-if you can use eachothers leadership bubble your armies can share bubble effects (like strakens charge abilities)
-if you would have to take dangerous terrain test when passing through an ally unit you may not rally withing 6" of an ally unit (dont trust them enough to reform your "tactical retreat")
But this is just off the top of my head and I am sure there are other rule synergy which would need to be quantified, the ally systems restructured for 40k, and there may be some things I am missing but that what I get for not having my book on meLast edited by crazedloon; 2011-01-27 at 10:59 PM.
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2011-01-28, 03:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Try brother corbulo from BA near a squad of hammernators giving off his feel no pain.. but on top of that.. be allied to necrons who have 2 warrior squads and a lord with a res orb chilling within the range too... Wow..Necrons with feel no pain AND we'll be back even if you use AP or power weapons... My buddies did a Eldar/BA group that had Hammernators getting buffed from Eldar Seer's and Warlocks as well.. rerolled failed saves and failed to wound or whatever..
in either case..."Friendly units" should count as your personal army.. but Maybe it was written that way on purpose. Evil shenanigans that have no place in fluff.
-Wrath"If you can, then do. If you cannot, then find a way so you can."
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2011-01-28, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Just read through the first bit here. Given that I was a staff member for quite a while, and - I feel - quite a good one, and that I knew a lot of other good staff members who didn't do the things you mention, these comments feel like attacks on my honour. Seriously, man, what the hell? You may have had bad experiences with your local store, but sheesh.
Last edited by SmartAlec; 2011-01-28 at 05:52 AM.
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2011-01-28, 06:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
I don't think we're trying to offend you - or anyone - specifically SmartAlec, but unfortunately past experiences have taught a lot of us that GW is generally an unscrupulous company when it comes to a lot of things.
The extreme pressure they put on workers to sell sell sell SELL, their attitude towards intellectual property, and the way that they treat their staff in general are all well below the average grade for a retailer, and while we love and appreciate the hardworking Loyalists like you, you are somewhat in the minority when it comes to helping out the customer.
Case in point: A friend of mine worked as a Store Manager until very recently. Long hours, high pressure and totalitarian observation of his day to day routine all for what essentially equated to a tiny fraction above minimum wage. When he resigned due to this, GW witheld his last paycheque (without telling him about it or giving him any warning) so as to 'pay off' his relocation loan for coming to this area.
He's currently in the process of being evicted, specifically due to this action as that paycheque was intended to pay his rent until he moved to his next job, and he was also one of the nicest staff members you could hope for.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2011-01-28, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
It's not like that at all. GW Staff are not bad people. Not bad people at all. But, at the whole of it, they are salespeople, pretty much first and foremost.
Now, I'll address specific comments that you've brought up.
The first; Completely true. GW Staff encourage you to buy things. They are salesmen. They're not malicious. They don't 'hate' you in any shape or form. They're just trying to get you to buy things. Now, the average person doesn't have a clue what they want to buy. GW Staff (and this has happened more than once, in more than one store that I've been to), that GW Staff push Assault on Black Reach, they push it hard (this ties into the third spoiler you quoted).
Once again, GW don't hate you in any way. They want to get you to buy Assault on Black Reach, it helps you play the game, it gets you started, etc. But, how do you get started in the hobby if you don't want to play Space Marines or Orks? Short answer; with difficulty and a lot of extra money out of your pocket.
Again, with the first point, GW Staff that I know of, come at selling you things from a hobbyist/collector's perspective. I don't blame them, it's a great idea. But, once again, it might not be what you want. I sit at the modelling/painting table for a good part of my spare days. I might buy two or three boxes worth of stuff and start kit-bashing stuff together. I spend whole days at Games Workshop, talking to staff, talking to customers, etc. I was even offered a job at one point, which I turned down for various reasons.
First reason of which is that I'm not the kind of person who's suited to be a salesman. It's a particular mindset that you have to be in, and, GW encourages that mindset.
Now, when I listen to GW Staffers talk to the customers, the person is kind of stuck for what to buy next. The Blackshirt says "Well, what don't you have?" Again, if you're trying to put together even a half-competitive list - which most people are - that's the wrong question to ask. The correct question should be "What do you already have, and what kind of list are you trying to build?"
If you're a hobbyist, and you don't plan on playing many competitive games, then, sure, grab whatever you don't have. But, the majority of people are not 'collectors', per se.
The fourth spoiler, sure, I'll go ahead and edit that out. But, Assault on Black Reach is a bad start for Space Marine players. It's not a legal army, and, it's not even a particularly 'good' army as it is and I really don't think it should be being sold to people just starting out.
If I had it my way, the AoBR kit would have 5 Scouts with Rifles and 5 Assault Marines instead of Terminators and the Dreadnought.
This. Many times this.
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2011-01-28, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Apocalypse actually has a chart detailing relationships between the factions like what you describe, but doesn't have any mechanical effects related to it; it's just there to tell you what does and doesn't make sense when piling everybody's minis onto the table in two armies. Like we couldn't figure it out, but hey.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-01-28, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
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2011-01-28, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
So, I'm mechanising my Eldar at the moment. How does this look?
SpoilerHQ: Prince Yriel 155
HQ: Autarch with Power Weapon, Mandiblasters, Shuriken Catapult 92
Troops: 10 Avengers including Exarch with Dual Shuriken Catapults, Bladestorm and Defend 167
Wave Serpent with Twinlinked Shuriken Cannon and Star Engines 115
Troops: 10 Avengers including Exarch with Dual Shuriken Catapults and Bladestorm 152
Wave Serpent with Twinlinked Shuriken Cannon and Star Engines 115
Troops: 4 Jetbikes including Jetbike Warlock with Destructor and Singing Spear 124
Troops: 4 Jetbikes including Jetbike Warlock with Destructor and Singing Spear 124
Elites: 6 Scorpions including Exarch with Scorpion's Claw and Shadowstrike 143
Elites: 6 Fire Dragons 96
Heavy Support: Falcon with Star Engines and Shuriken Cannon 135
Heavy Support: War Walker with two Shuriken Cannons 40
Heavy Support: War Walker with two Shuriken Cannons 40
1498 points
The whole force will generally start in reserves. The Autarch rides with the Defend squad of Avengers in a Serpent; Yriel rides with the squad without Defend, since he'll usually be peeling off to take something in assault on his own. The Dragons ride in the Falcon. The Scorpions and War Walkers outflank, hopefully tying up the main threats to my skimmers in assault. Everything else turbo boosts aggressively to unleash havoc on the 3rd turn.
I just have to hope that nothing too important rolls a 1 to come in from reserves.Last edited by PanNarrans; 2011-01-28 at 09:28 AM.
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Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
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2011-01-28, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
The opposing Guard player has a Valkyrie, which will probably either deep strike or outflank, so the officer of the fleet would probably see use. But the astropath has a fairly good probability of coming into play, because we have three command bastions, and therefore three rolls which, on 4+, let us assign one special rule to one unit in our armies. Something is going to either infiltrate or outflank unless the rolls all manage to go horribly wrong, hopefully both the Thunderwolves and the Demolisher if we can manage the rolls. In any case, he saved our bacon last game by putting our entire army on the board in turn 2.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-01-28, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Ehh, I've seen that chart. It basically amounts to "Imperial vs. non-Imperial" and to a lesser extent "Order vs. Chaos".
But, considering I played Blood Axes, and they've got documented fluff as allies and/or mercenaries...
No chart is going to be perfect, because in Fantasy, almost every faction wants Chaos to either flourish or fail. In 40k, everyone wants the biggest piece of the Galactic pie, with the exclusion of everyone else.
e: On GW staffers: I overheard one of them say that Wood Elves were a great army in Fantasy, that Dryads and Glade Riders would tear enemy units to shreds.
For non-Fantasy gamers, this advice is very, very wrong.
Not bad people, just salespeople, is basically the right adjective.
e2: On Eldar: Farseers are among the best HQ units in the game.
Fortune, Doom, and Guide are incredibly awesome, and a 5++ re-rollable on your Dire Avengers makes them last far, far longer than anyone gives them credit for.
Autarchs are cool and all, especially Yriel, I just feel you're crippling yourself by not taking a 'Seer.Last edited by Ninja Chocobo; 2011-01-28 at 09:43 AM.
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2011-01-28, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
Comments:
- Do you really think you will need all these Star Engines on everything (or, in fact, anything)? Fast skimmers can move 24" already, so with 24" on the first turn and 12" on the second one (allowing you to still get out and start shooting), plus 2" disembarking movement, you should be able to bring your units into range without the Star Engines on the second turn just fine.
- Yriel and the Autatch, what are your plans for them? Where do they go and what do they do there? They cannot accompany the Scorpions, and your Dire Avengers seem to be built for shooting (otherwise you would be better off giving the Exarchs the Power Weapon/Shimmerfield combo), so how do you plan to use them?
EDIT: I have no idea how I missed your explanation on how you plan to use them. In any case, it still seems to me your Avengers are built for shooting primarily; I'd suggest either giving the Exarch more close-combat focused equipment, or exchanging one of the HQ models for either more models in the other units or a Farseer.
- The Shuriken Cannon upgrade on Jetbikes is quite worth it. Also, these Jetbike units are awfully small - they will be shot to pieces quite quickly, and the Warlocks increase the cost of these units quite a bit. I think Warlocks are better added only when the units are bigger, so the investment isn't so huge relatively to the cost of the unit and so there are bodies to soak up damage before the Warlock dies. Perhaps it would be better to scrap one of the Warlocks and turn the two Jetbike units into one, using the freed up points to add one more Jetbike (so you'd have 9) and upgrading three of the Jetbikes to have Shuriken Cannons?
- In close combat having numbers is far more important than when shooting; small units work fine when they are supposed to stay out of combat, but for assault, I find only big units can cut it (no pun intended). Scorpions admittedly do bring a ton of attacks, but only 6 still seems a bit few to me...Last edited by Winterwind; 2011-01-28 at 09:44 AM.
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2011-01-28, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"
A couple more things to add to Winterwind's list, which are all very good suggestions I might add:
Why did you choose a Falcon to transport your Fire Dragons around?
If you're only wanting it for transport and the only upgrades it gets are Shuriken Cannon and Star Engines, why not take another Wave Serpent? The stats are identical and it will fulfill exactly the same role with the same equipment, but it will be 10 points cheaper - enough to give the Fire Dragons an Exarch, or a similarly useful upgrade for someone else.
As for starting everything in reserve.... A brave choice that you make live to regret, although Autarch + Yriel is certainly the best way to go if you want to do it.
Since you seem to WANT to have him around for Master Strategist, I would recommend giving your Autarch a Fusion Gun rather than a Shriken Catapult. Until the Fire Dragons arrive, find a good position, and then disembark (turn 2 at least? 3 quite likely? 4 on a really bad day?) you have almost no anti-tank weapons, and one good - or lucky - shot from your opponent could see them stranded on the far side of the table, no use to you.
At least the Autarch would have the option of leaving his unit and going after a troublesome vehicle, if he had to. Eggs in baskets, divide and conquer, and all that.
The alternative, which would probably be more universally useful, is not to put everything in reserve and take a Farseer instead - one a Jetbike with Doom/Fortune would perhaps be the most fun if you can afford it.
You can successfully play Eldar without one, but it's generally the hard way of doing it.Last edited by Wraith; 2011-01-28 at 10:09 AM.
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