[3.5 Base Class]Harrowed [PEACH]

[Lord_Gareth]

Not for Indomitable Will, but it's the general standard used for such things (with our group, at least) based on all the "teleport into solid object shuntings" and falling damage.

It still remains a house rule, Ganurath.

[Kallisti]

Will the Slendertouched still be compatible with this version? Because in one game I am submitting a Harrowed/Slendertouched//Binder, and so now would be a good time to find out if using Slendertouched with the new version would be a problem.

[Aergoth]

I'd like to hear from you about the Beast Driven, if you wouldn't mind Gareth?

[Lord_Gareth]

Will the Slendertouched still be compatible with this version? Because in one game I am submitting a Harrowed/Slendertouched//Binder, and so now would be a good time to find out if using Slendertouched with the new version would be a problem.

The Slendertouched shouldn't have any problems per se, but the addition of Harrowings means that it's behind the curve. Additionally, the feat that the Slendertouched required became a Harrowing.

I'd like to hear from you about the Beast Driven, if you wouldn't mind Gareth?

I'll post something in the next few days.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

More in-depth reply later.

Still waiting on this...I'm interested in seeing your response to my critique. That said, given MY timely (*cough, cough*) response...

[Lord_Gareth]

Still waiting on this...I'm interested in seeing your response to my critique. That said, given MY timely (*cough, cough*) response...

Harrowings, Unchained Berserker, and Feral Psyker, friend. That is all.
Lord_Gareth is not responsible for delays in giving in-depth responses due to new employment.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Harrowings, Unchained Berserker, and Feral Psyker, friend. That is all.

Good counter, my friend.

Lord_Gareth is not responsible for delays in giving in-depth responses due to new employment.

Excellent?

[Lord_Gareth]

I mean, honestly Gid, you have competiton for Unchained Berserker and you still aren't working on it yet. What would Sorcen/Kyle/Syra/Tyler/Inaya/Bartlemaeus say?

[NineThePuma]

I mean, honestly Gid, you have competiton for Unchained Berserker and you still aren't working on it yet. What would Sorcen/Kyle/Syra/Tyler/Inaya/Bartlemaeus say?

What? That doesn't... huh?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

What? That doesn't... huh?

Makes sense to me.

To clarify, Gareth and I have known each other for years, beginning on the old Wizards RP boards. I used Gideon_Gideonson as a username, and all of those were either other players (Sorcen), or old characters of Gareth and mine. He also carefully picked the characters who would care about a delayed piece of work, rather than the numerous ones who would have brushed it off. Cunning.

[NineThePuma]

... Ah. Now it makes sense. You're both crazy people and the world is square. I return to my hole in the wall with perfect understanding.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

... Ah. Now it makes sense. You're both crazy people and the world is square.

Basically, yes.

[Lord_Gareth]

So yes, the main review I need is the Harrowings (since only the Tenebrous Touch changed from the last version) and/or feats, and I'm always open for ideas on both. I'd love to see more Harrowed PrCs as well.

Additionally, you can look forward to:

- Poison Harrowings!
- Disease Harrowings!
- Harrowed that don't eat, sleep, or breathe!

Now get crackin', Djinn! Don't make me drop the Tyler voice! I do it!

[bindin garoth]

Sorry I completely forgot about the incarnium/harrowed prc that I was working on . I started it, then got distracted, and then the prc contest came up so I worked on that. As soon as I finish that I'll post up The Avatar of the Beast Prc.

[Bhu]

should i wait till you do further harrowings before working more on the Phantom Cats?

[Lord_Gareth]

should i wait till you do further harrowings before working more on the Phantom Cats?

There's plenty of Harrowings made already, so unless you feel something essential is missing, tally ho!

[Bhu]

Kewl! fluff is up for it if you want a peek.

[Kallisti]

The Slendertouched shouldn't have any problems per se, but the addition of Harrowings means that it's behind the curve. Additionally, the feat that the Slendertouched required became a Harrowing.

It still gets bonus Harrowed feats, though. Thanks to Forced Harrowing, that can become half Harrowing progression. If you think it should be run with full Harrowing progression and lose the bonus feats, that'd work just fine for me.

Since Shadowmental became Tenebrous, I figured that Shadowmental Mantle was now Tenebrous Mantle, meaning they can qualify at fifth if they meet the special requirements and take their first level at sixth. Which seems to work nicely, since it means you won't get the ninth and tenth level abilities until fourteenth and fifteenth respectively, when they're no longer such a problem.

That said, I missed the deadline, so unless the DM is feeling generous it might be a while before I have any actual play data from this character. He might work as a villain for a campaign I'll be running soon-ish, though Kobold-Bard is awesome and playtest data should be up beginning soon.

EDIT:
Here's the original sheet for the character. Once I'm more satisfied with the to-hit bonuses, I'll probably add Aberrant Blood, Inhuman Reach, and Deepspawn, for more tentacles. Ideally I'd dip some Ozodrin on the Binder side, but that's not kosher for this particular game.

[Elfstone]

Wow I just got around to actually reading this fully....

Awesome. Im so using this in my campaign as the bad guys. Those who give in often to the monster within...

Great class.

[Sengachi]

Over the past week, I've made at least 20 lists of possible Harrowed harrowings and feats. I've noticed two problems. Take a look at the below list, and you'll probably see the first one.

Natural Attack Harrowed
Level
Harrowings
1 HB Savagery
3 Armoring will
5 Chains of Will
7 HB Butchery
9 Rending Gift
11 Unholy Reach
12 “Profane Transcendence”
13 Phantom Rip
15 Lashing Tail
17 Bestial Armor
19 One free Harrowing

Feats
1 Dark Deal Butchery Pact
3 Iron Will
6 INA (claws)
9 Multiattack
12 Forced Harrowing
15 Forced Harrowing
18 One free Feat

There is one free feat (none at all if you want to finesse), and one free harrowing, likely taken up by HB flight. Try making other natural attack Harrowed. They are all identical! One of the things I love about the Harrowed is the sheer variety inherent to them. Natural attack harrowed have none of that. They're more stoic than any other build I've every seen. A bunch of carbon-copy clones of one-another. Something needs to be changed.

Then there are stealth Harrowed. Profane Hunter and Predatory Obfuscation are great stealth abilities and honestly all a harrowed needs to hide like a ninja. But they can't do anything with their stealth. I test-ran a stealth Harrowed, and all their stealth gives them is a choice of whether to fight or not, and a surprise round. Not worth the three harrowings required to build a stealth harrowed (Bestial Senses is a prerequisite of Profane Hunter).

So what is to be done? My suggestion (though if there are others, please, do tell) is to make them akin to hunters. By which I mean, add the path option. A Harrowed could choose between normal, Natural Attack, and stealth. A normal Harrowed is a normal Harrowed. The other two types only get Harrowings at levels 1,4,7,10,13,16,19 (3 less than normal).

A natural attack harrowed would first of all, start with no weapon-proficiencies beyond light armor and natural proficiencies. At level 1, they get HB Savagery. At level 5, HB Butchery. At level 10, Unholy Reach. At level 15, Lashing Tail. Their seven other feats (8 if human) and harrowings belong to them to use. I understand this may have more power than it should, if there are any suggestions, I would love them.

A stealth harrowed would gain 1d6 sneak attack damage on levels 2,5,8,11,13,17,20 (7d6 in all), and Bestial Senses at level 3 (Profane Hunter, can of course be taken alongside Bestial Senses). I think this would turn stealth Harrowed into something different from every other type of Harrowed, while leaving the ability to gain stealthiness to other types of Harrowed.

I understand my solution is not perfect, and complicates the Harrowed class greatly. If anyone has suggestions, please give them. But at the very least, the fact remains that natural attack Harrowed are horribly constricted and something must be done about this. Lord Gareth, I apologize if I'm imposing too much with this suggestion.

[Lord_Gareth]

I've been considering this problem myself, and the only real solution I can come up with is MOAR HARROWINGS. I'll also wait on Djinn's ideas.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alright...I'm not going to give a Harrowing-by-Harrowing critique, 'cause I currently don't like how you're doing Harrowings.

Where you could be using a simple and fair level-based requirement system (ala the Warlock's Invocations, for example), you've chosen the Ability/Feat based system that Feats use...and this forces Harrowed to select and increase certain ability scores just to get powers they might be interested in. This should change, in my mind. Maybe have Harrowing prerequisites (you have to take X before you take Y), but do away with the other stuff in favor of a simpler tiered or level-based system.

Further, many of the Harrowings aren't actually balanced against others, and, because of the system you're using, it's hard to tell which ones are supposed to be balanced against each other. Some (Hellborn Savagery, Shadowed Soul, Hell-born Flight) are so good as to be almost mandatory, while others are worthless in at least 50% of situations. I'm also not a fan of the mix of static abilities, at-will abilities, spell-like abilities, and per-day abilities that are granted through Harrowings...mixing them up so much seems odd. I'd at least cut the per day abilities from the list.

All told, the Harrowings didn't particularly impress me. I don't get the "twisted soul" vibe that the rest of the class gives me: I'm getting a "oooh...free shinies" vibe, especially with the over-prevalence of natural attacks and cool one-off tricks, which the class itself already gets a lot of.

I think the only ones I'm completely happy with are Unholy Communion and Nightmare Mind.

Yes, I'm being hyper-critical. The Harrowings that exist are certainly functional. But I've known you for years, Gareth...and you can do better than this in terms of flavorful and interesting options. And, damn it, show me some flavor. You've basically got a free ticket to tell me what these corruptions do and give the players a starting place for some good RP, and instead I get sentences like "A Harrowed that develops this Harrowing enjoys a +2 profane bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells or abilities." Why not being with, say, "A Harrowed with the Nightmare Mind Harrowing is in constant conflict with the Beast, as it stalks her every waking thought. While this mental battle takes great toll on the Harrowed's psyche, her mind is all but inaccessible to outside forces." Now we know what it does, and I, as a player, see the ability as more than a static bonus.

[Realms of Chaos]

Yes, I'm being hyper-critical. The Harrowings that exist are certainly functional. But I've known you for years, Gareth...and you can do better than this in terms of flavorful and interesting options. And, damn it, show me some flavor. You've basically got a free ticket to tell me what these corruptions do and give the players a starting place for some good RP, and instead I get sentences like "A Harrowed that develops this Harrowing enjoys a +2 profane bonus on saving throws against mind-affecting spells or abilities." Why not being with, say, "A Harrowed with the Nightmare Mind Harrowing is in constant conflict with the Beast, as it stalks her every waking thought. While this mental battle takes great toll on the Harrowed's psyche, her mind is all but inaccessible to outside forces." Now we know what it does, and I, as a player, see the ability as more than a static bonus.

From a practical standpoint, there may be a bit of a problem with having every single harrowed act as a supreme gem of RP waiting to happen.

Namely, you get 10 of them (or more with feats).

While your version of nightmare mind sounds fun, I want you to try imagine RPing as the following character.

Your harrowed is in constant conflict with the beast, having it stalk their every thought and run your psyche into the ground, even as it blocks any external mental influence. At the same time, the beast lurks in every shadow around you, helping you fuse in perfectly with the shadows but threatening to pull you forever into the darkness the moment that you let down your guard. At the same time, your beast is also wreaking havoc on your body, forcing it into a horrid shape and filling you with violent impulses as it forces claws out from your hands. At the same time, your beast is no longer satisfied with merely your soul, whispering soft secrets to the souls of others but allowing you to communicate with others telepathically. At the same time, your beast is slowly crushing the life out of you, a vice that constantly reminds you of the burden your bury, even as it deflects attacks made against you. At the same time, you have ingeniously found a way to fight back against the beast within you, harnessing the metaphysical chains that bind it to protect yourself from harm and to suppress the beast.

... Yeah, and that's only 6 of 10. Trying to add thick layers of flavor to each and every ability has the risk of overloading an average player. In addition, too many abilities have overlapping flavor (such as the various natural attacks) so it seems to make more sense that those gained after the first is simply the original problem getting worse.

Perhaps a huge amount of flavor could work if the harrowings worked on highly-flavored tracks (gathering the various shadow-based abilities, natural weapon abilities, sensory abilities, mental abilities, and so forth). Perhaps grant a new ability track at 1st level and every 4 levels afterwards and let the harrowed advance a path at each odd level after 1st.

Then again, I like the harrowed as it is so I may be biased against change.

[radmelon]

Maybe a compromise? How about you just have a small amount of fluff for each harrowing?

An example for Nightmare Mind would be: "Although the presence of the beast in the harrowed's head can be uncomfortable at times, there's only so much room in one skull giving a +2 bonus...".

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

From a practical standpoint, there may be a bit of a problem with having every single harrowed act as a supreme gem of RP waiting to happen.

Namely, you get 10 of them (or more with feats).

True. What I gave was just an example. I didn't properly consider all the implications.

Still, basically, my point stands. I find the current Harrowings largely uninteresting and largely un-flavorful.

[Lord_Gareth]

True. What I gave was just an example. I didn't properly consider all the implications.

Still, basically, my point stands. I find the current Harrowings largely uninteresting and largely un-flavorful.

In my defense, I was largely focused on just finishing the damned things, and once I was, I was all like, "Holy crap that was a lotta 'brew, I need a break."

[Kallisti]

In building my harrowed character, yeah, I felt like many of the per-day harrowings were pretty underwhelming. I agree with some of what Djinn said, but not all of it--I feel like Harrowings would work best as a collection of static or at-will abilities, and per day stuff should be a class feature. Maybe collect the per-day harrowings into a separate pool of abilities and give those out every five levels?

[Aergoth]

Perhaps to use a comparison, the at will/encouter abilities are maneuvers and the per day are stances. Only in terms of how often one gets these particular features of course.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, certain Harrowings are going to become feats. Harrowing pre-reqs will shortly be edited, and fluff (at least a sentence or two) will be added in. New Harrowings will also be forthcoming. Still accepting any and all ideas!

I promise I'll read the Beast Driven soon. Really. I totally will.

[Sengachi]

I think I have a few suggestions. I'll have to think on exactly how it would work, but each of these Harrowings would add an ability to a Natural attack.

Tentacles get a grapple Harrowing
The tail gets a trip Harrowing
The claws get a sunder Harrowing which burns a use of Tenebrous Touch (melee) (will save for this one?)
The jaws get a rend harrowing (hit with one claw and jaws = extra dmg)

I'll give some specifics for these soon.