Should I be so upset about this?

[CoffeeIncluded]

Something you need to know about me before going into the story: I have trust issues. I've been backstabbed a few times, so I tend to be a bit suspicious. But if you're my friend, if you've earned my trust, I will pretty much automatically believe you. I will stick by you no matter what. But do not lie to me. Do not betray that trust. I really don't take it well. All my friends know this.

So, last night most of the regular decision college admissions came out. Including all the Ivies. As is the norm for my school, a lot of people got into an Ivy or equivalent (and when I say a lot, I mean at least 40, probably more.), whether regular or early decision, myself included. (I got in ED; I've been done since December, as some of you may remember. )

One of my friends, A, applied to Columbia on a whim. Now, she's smart, but out of all my school friends I have the highest INT stat. I'm not bragging; it's the truth. I'm the science geek; they're into music. But she got a 35 or something on the ACT (Out of 36), so she applied on a whim. Her getting accepted would be like if I got accepted to Harvard: Throw in the application on a whim, but it's not happening.

This morning, upon hearing from everyone (Since I just got a facebook and I haven't friended people from my school yet; I had to wait until today) where they got in, I heard from another friend, J (Who is going to a state school), that A may have gotten into Columbia.

Me: WTF IF THAT IS TRUE THAT IS AMAZING!!!

So I run into A later that day and ask, "Did you really get in?" I was a bit suspicious, but figured that if I asked her, she'd tell me the truth. After all, A's my friend. So, I asked.

She, shyly, says, "Yeah."

Me: OH MY GOD THAT IS AMAZING I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!! *glomps*

A then mutters something about how she doesn't know because of financial aid issues (Which...I'm more than doubtful about, but I'm not getting into that) and runs off.

...I think you can see where this is going.

Yeah. Near the end of the day I talk to A, talk to her about how she's an idiot if she doesn't go to Columbia. Finally, after she does a lot of dodging the question, I finally worm it out of her: She never got in in the first place. Either she, J, or someone else spread the rumor that A got into Columbia, when she got rejected.

And I believed it. I bought it, even after asking, because A's my friend and she wouldn't lie to me.

I felt humiliated, angry at her and J and whomever else spread this, and angry at myself for being so damn gullible. I honestly feel betrayed. And when I confronted them about it, A and J told me to calm down and stop attacking them and to "Chill out".

It's not so much lying about college acceptances that's got me so upset (Although I'm definitely steamed about it)as it is the principle of the thing. Don't lie to me. And especially don't lie to me when I ask flat-out if something's true.

Because you're my friend, and so I'm inclined to believe you. I'm going to believe you, because you're my friend and friends don't lie to each other, and so I trust you. But if you lie to me, I can't believe you anymore. It's really hard to earn my trust, my full trust, and when you betray it...

...I honestly feel like I want to cry. Should I be feeling so upset about this?

[Sarco_Phage]

Frankly? Yes. It's okay to be upset.

I suggest, however, you take a few deep breaths, take a hot shower, or do something, in general to calm down.

EDIT: I find ice cream helps when I'm really down. That or about three tons of coffee.

[Coidzor]

Probably not, since you just embarrassed the hell out of the girl who got rejected from, apparently, a school she rather wanted to get into and mentioned that she was applying to such that she had to save face when asked about it by saying she was accepted rather than be publicly shamed by admitting to not being thought good enough to get into said school, and furthermore got her to mention, real or not, monetary issues that would complicate her attending any university. Possibly in public, but I couldn't quite tell from your post, but it seemed you embarrassed her in public by loudly and exuberantly bringing it up and congratulating her when she would've preferred it to remain low key and something that could be quietly forgotten.

How, exactly, were you harmed by this? It seems she's the person who has been publicly humiliated.

Really, the only question here is whether you forced her hand so that she could at least lower the amount of public embarrassment she got until she took you out of public if you were yelling about her getting into Columbia so that bystanders could hear.

[Jibar]

No, not really.
Well, yes, be upset that someone lied to you but certainly not to this extent.
Your friend just got denied a wonderful opportunity, one they probably didn't even know was available until that ACT thing. Rather than face the reality of it, they wanted to escape from it all for some brief moments.
This is their tragedy, not yours, and it's a little selfish to be making such a big deal of it when they could still be upset. When I got rejected from one of the big Universities, I didn't say a thing for weeks to my friends because I didn't want to believe it.

[Blisstake]

I seem to be the only person in the world who has never experienced university acceptance drama...

Anyway, it seems like she was put in an incredibly awkward situation and felt horrible about lying to you in the first place. She probably figured that even if you did find out, it isn't really a huge insult to you. It's also possible she's extremely humiliated over the whole thing, and doesn't want anyone to talk about it, mistakenly believing that if she lied about getting in, she could avoid further discussion.

There are FAR worse ways someone can abuse your trust, and honestly, I think you should forgive her.

[Keld Denar]

I think its ok to be upset, but I don't think its ok to make that big a deal out of it. It doesn't sound like it was done intentionally to hurt you. Sometimes people make poor decisions when they are put under pressure. Her telling you yes may have been one.

If you've already expressed your dissatisfaction with her about her handling of this situation, I think you should reinforce that you are still her friend, you still care about her, but you'd appreciate if she never ever does that again. Then maybe buy her a cup of coffee or something.

Its disappointing, but its not the end of the world. Life goes on.

[CoffeeIncluded]

This happened in a relatively isolated location, I'm a fairly exuberant person to start with, though I didn't yell it, and she doesn't have any monetary issues.

I'm more upset about the person who started this than anything else; A said that J started it as a joke, but J said that A started it...I don't know whom to believe.

If you've already expressed your dissatisfaction with her about her handling of this situation, I think you should reinforce that you are still her friend, you still care about her, but you'd appreciate if she never ever does that again.

Okay, I'll tell her that tomorrow once I'm fully cooled off. Thanks.

[Keld Denar]

Okay, I'll tell her that tomorrow once I'm fully cooled off. Thanks.

Yay! I'm helping!

[valadil]

What you have to realize is that A'd probably been asked about Columbia all day. Even if she wanted to tell you, the lie was practiced and rehearsed, and already on the tip of her tongue. And A was probably stressed out about being the topic of a rumor like that. Given time to think about it, I'm sure she'd have chosen not to lie, but in a split second reaction when she's already stressing out and had been repeating the lie all day long? I'm not surprised that she said it again.

So yeah, it sucks, but I think you should forgive your friend.

[pendell]

Something you need to know about me before going into the story: I have trust issues. I've been backstabbed a few times, so I tend to be a bit suspicious. But if you're my friend, if you've earned my trust, I will pretty much automatically believe you. I will stick by you no matter what. But do not lie to me. Do not betray that trust. I really don't take it well. All my friends know this.

My wife is the same way. It takes a VERY long time to earn her trust -- it took me eight years -- but that trust once given is absolute. Want to get on her bad side? Lie to her.

And once you've broken your trust, it is highly unlikely you'll get a second chance.

I'm told the same thing is true of peregrine falcons. A trainer once told me you must never abuse a falcon, because they never forget. They will never trust you again.

In a sense, to trust a person is to let yourself fall backward, expecting them to put out their arms and catch you.

So I think you're having a completely understandable human reaction. Trust is like love. When it is betrayed it naturally generates feelings of betrayal, hatred. The deeper the trust, the deeper the anger when it is broken.

However, we're not falcons. We're human beings. So I'd consider ... after my anger has had a chance to cool down ... how to continue the relationship.

I tend to be a little more .. nuanced .. than some are. For me, trust or distrust is rarely absolute. Instead, the question is HOW FAR I can trust a person, and what I can trust them WITH.

So I wouldn't hold a grudge against a friend who'd lie to me this way. After all, everyone has weaknesses and there's no perfect people. I would , however, make note that my friend can't be fully trusted when they're put into a position where they will be humiliated if they tell the truth, and endeavor not to put them in it.

If I do, try to find some face-saving way for them to tell the truth that puts them in the best light possible. That works even with people who have the utmost integrity.


I view it as sort of like a truck: You learn how much the vehicle can carry by loading stuff into it. If you put 2000 pounds into a 500-pound vehicle, there's no sense grousing when it breaks. But you'd be daft to load it with more than 500 pounds next time.

The world is full of imperfect people, and some of them will be my friends. The best thing to do is love them despite their faults while doing all you can to help them be better people.

Besides, it's useful to consider the context. Imagine how this kid feels. He was told he was his girlfriend's first time. Yet it turns out that the baby isn't his. She had been lying to him for some time, evidently.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[onthetown]

Yes, it's definitely okay to be upset. But the reasoning behind the lie may be that, after passing in the application, she started getting her hopes up and was very upset/ashamed/etc when she was rejected.

She still should have trusted you enough to tell the truth, but she just might not trust anybody to not make fun of her being rejected right now.

[CoffeeIncluded]

J apologized about the situation, so that's good. I apologized too.

[Keld Denar]

Yay! And the world was once again a happy place!

[pendell]

J apologized about the situation, so that's good. I apologized too.

Excellent!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Anxe]

Yes, you should be upset. No, you should not be as upset as your post made you seem. Calm down. She wasn't trying to hurt you. She was trying to make herself feel better about a rejection.

[Orzel]

Oh trust. I had maybe 2 friends who did the same thing.

You were right to be upset. Maybe just as much as you were.

I am glad the world is rightside up again. I'd buy you all an ice cream but I am in Brooklyn.

[Glass Mouse]

J apologized about the situation, so that's good. I apologized too.

Hooray.
I find that learning someone's motivations for lying or behaving in a hurtful manner really helps with the forgiveness thing. Hope you got some kind of explanation from J and A.


@Pendell, I just wanna say, your post was... perfect, really. It showcased some of my own thoughts on trust and then built upon them. I treasure these small realizations so much when they happen. Thank you.

[Coidzor]

Yes, whatever the heck that was does need to be cleared up, but what also must be made clear is that unless there's some secret way this was malicious there was no behaving in a hurtful manner going on here.

[Telonius]

Glad it worked out for the best! I would suggest, though, that you don't put so much emphasis on truth and lies. Even the best of us lie to ourselves, sometimes - and often without knowing it. If we can't even detect the dishonesty within ourselves, how can we expect everybody to be honest with us, all the time? The more important thing (at least IMO) is that you give people the benefit of the doubt. Nearly everybody is trying to be as honest as they can be. That doesn't mean be stupid about it; but it's really not the end of the world if somebody tells a lie to you. Most of the time they're harming themselves as much as (if not more than) they're hurting you.

[Sacrieur]

Wait, she lied to you out of fear, and then you got all up in arms about it?

That's... Incredibly self-centered.

Edit: Yes, I'm rocking the boat. Chaotic Neutral, =P.

[Flame of Anor]

Wait, she lied to you out of fear, and then you got all up in arms about it?

That's... Incredibly self-centered.

Edit: Yes, I'm rocking the boat. Chaotic Neutral, =P.

I disagree. I think that CoffeeIncluded is right to be upset, but she should try not to let the deception that A's weakness of character (not malice) caused to upset her too much.

[Sacrieur]

I disagree. I think that CoffeeIncluded is right to be upset, but she should try not to let the deception that A's weakness of character (not malice) caused to upset her too much.

Right to be upset about what exactly? That A "betrayed her trust"? I don't think so, and that's an incredibly egocentric way of looking at it.

Has there been any real thought into why A would be lying? A was ashamed, depressed, hurt, and feeling completely inferior. At best, A was in a state of emotional confusion. A was put on the spot about something she was not comfortable with, and she was afraid. It is irrational, of course, but nonetheless unavoidable. To call it a weakness of character is cruel. Most people will fold under that sort of pressure.

To blame A for not thinking about how CoffeeIncluded felt on the matter is raving mad.

[Flame of Anor]

Right to be upset about what exactly? That A "betrayed her trust"? I don't think so, and that's an incredibly egocentric way of looking at it.

Has there been any real thought into why A would be lying? A was ashamed, depressed, hurt, and feeling completely inferior. At best, A was in a state of emotional confusion. A was put on the spot about something she was not comfortable with, and she was afraid. It is irrational, of course, but nonetheless unavoidable. To call it a weakness of character is cruel. Most people will fold under that sort of pressure.

To blame A for not thinking about how CoffeeIncluded felt on the matter is raving mad.

I'm not blaming A for not thinking about CoffeeIncluded's feelings, or even for agreeing to the falsehood under pressure. But it was a very bad decision to start, or allow J to start, the falsehood in the first place.

[Coidzor]

I'm not blaming A for not thinking about CoffeeIncluded's feelings, or even for agreeing to the falsehood under pressure. But it was a very bad decision to start, or allow J to start, the falsehood in the first place.

Hence why the appropriate response is to try to gain an understanding of what's going on rather than feel like a personal attack or betrayal has been made, it's completely different ballparks.

[Marnath]

You guys did see her mention it's been resolved, right?
All's well that ends well.

[Skeppio]

J apologized about the situation, so that's good. I apologized too.

That's good. Nice to hear it's sorted out.

[Solaris]

I'm aware that the situation has been resolved, but there shouldn't have been one in the first place. As usual, I'm a little late to the party. Don't worry, all parties involved will live.

I'm more upset about the person who started this than anything else; A said that J started it as a joke, but J said that A started it...I don't know whom to believe.

You ever hear the phrase, "No blood, no foul"? And this is from a guy who really trusts approximately one person on the planet (most of the time). It stems from having been betrayed by pretty much everyone I loved (and oh how melodramatic that sounds) coupled with having spent all the years of my adult life either training for or actually engaged in a war with some of the most duplicitous and untrustworthy people on the planet. Believe it or not, when I was a wee lad I had similar notions about trust as you.

You know what I learned? Pendell's right. If you trust anyone absolutely, you're going to get burned. If you mistrust everyone, you're going to spend a whole lot of time and energy covering your back. You have to know who to trust and how far you can trust 'em. People will do what they can get away with.

At the end of the day, your friend is still your friend. Maybe she said something stupid, maybe she did something stupid. It happens. Did you get hurt? Emotionally, apparently so. But here's a little secret: You decide how you feel about things. You decided, albeit not entirely consciously, to be upset about your friend lying to you. Why? Why do you get so upset about such a minor thing as someone lying about something that doesn't really affect you? It's not like she slept with your boyfriend (or girlfriend, you never know these days). It's not like she stole something from you, attacked you, or even lied to you about something of significant import like a child's parentage or an important opportunity for you. It's of significant importance to her, of course, but it's only important to you because you're her friend. Why, then, would you be willing to forsake your friendship over it?
Principles are all well and good, but they need flexibility. You're not an automaton. You can say "I don't like it that she lied to me," sure. Anyone would be. But when it starts wandering into "I can't ever trust her ever again because she lied to me," then you're being entirely too absolutist. It wasn't a betrayal, it was a lapse of judgment. Humans are not absolute creatures - especially as we get older and learn more about the nature of things.

But hey, just two cents from a guy who thinks 'offensive' means 'they're shooting at me' and not 'that statement runs counter to my moral sensibilities'. Thick skin is a good trait to have.

[VanBuren]

I think I can figure why she did it. I mean, she's already let the information slip that she's applied, and so she's gonna get a reply. Now if she tells people she got rejected, she's probably going to feel like other people are judging her. Saying she got in, but financial issues are keeping her from going is a way to save face in front of a group of people that she will largely not maintain contact with, avoiding long-term consequences for the lie.

But I'm going to take a step back here. You've described yourself as the intelligent one in the group, the science geek. Now, I'm in no position to debate the validity of this claim. You seem intelligent, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are, in fact, the smartest person in your friend group. Now, that's nothing to be ashamed of. Your intelligence is a gift, and if you're consistently applying yourself then it's just as much a product of hard work you've earned as it is ability.

But let's look at another perspective for a second. Maybe I'm wrong about all of this, but the only real description of her I've seen is "Smart, but not quite as smart". That's a terrible label to live under. High School's that time where everyone is trying to figure out who they are (like Middle School, but with less acne and awkward dating-but-not-really) and people tend to find labels to attach to. Anyway, I had friends who were really good at some things, and I always found it frustrating that no matter how much I tried, I could never quite measure up to the level of ability they displayed. Now luckily, I was more skilled than them in other areas so it evened out, but when we were dealing with computer code, for instance, I was never going to be as good, even if I tried ten times as hard as my friend.

Now I'm doing a lot of speculating, and there's probably a greater than even chance that I'm completely wrong in my conjecture. But I'm simply raising the possibility that her rejection made her feel inadequate and whether she began the lie or merely allowed it to grow, it helped her feel better about herself. I don't think she wanted to lie to you, but maybe thought that she needed to, out of a need to measure up.

...

God, I'm wordy tonight.