When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Dienekes]

Why I hate Cat.

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"It should have been you."

I don't like that character any more than she did, in fact, I think he's a Mary Sue larva. Even if she was mad with grief, she kinda crosses the MEH there, for me. He was never her enemy, and only wanted her to not be a complete psycho-***** towards him.

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I mean, another character tried being that mean to all their life, and ended up getting shot in his junk for their trouble.

That's fair.

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I'm actually not much of a Cat fan, but I do try to recognize her abilities and not just call her stupid and blame that as to why she fails. She isn't, however she still fails rather often. Now Cersei is stupid, Joffrey is stupid and so I have no problem when people point that as a reason as why they dislike the character so long as it's fair.
Now interestingly about that scene, GRRM claimed that he wrote it that way to show that when something bad happens to her kids she acts distraught and out of character, which goes full circle to when she releases Jaime. However I think he kind of failed in that intention. Not that it isn't there, compare Catelyn's dedication and manners any other time in the books to that scene and they may as well have been two separate characters. But it came too early. If they had an entire book of Cat and Jon being cordial to each other but with understandable tension then at the end Cat says that line the reader would see that it was a mistake of a character they've grown to understand a slip-up in her demeanor. Cruel yes, but understandable. But it instead happens right at the beginning of her characterization when we are just starting to know the character and so everything she does after is colored by it.

[Xondoure]

For me I wanted Cat to be sympathetic, and as wise as she appears in the beginning and I think thats what ruined her for me. If I had walked in with zero expectations about her character I probably wouldn't have gotten nearly as furious over every thing she does. Because they aren't the actions of a dumb person, just one who is a lot less smart than she thinks she is. Which is really very common in this series.

[Alarra]

*squints at conversation* Who in the world are you guys talking about? Are these characters from the next book or another series entirely?

They're talking about Wheel of Time characters.

[valadil]

Because they aren't the actions of a dumb person, just one who is a lot less smart than she thinks she is. Which is really very common in this series.

I think I'm the only person who isn't bothered by Cat. I mean, I don't particularly like her, but I don't complain about her either. IMO most people aren't as smart as they think they are. Because of that, Cat comes across as realistic to me.

[hamlet]

I think I'm the only person who isn't bothered by Cat. I mean, I don't particularly like her, but I don't complain about her either. IMO most people aren't as smart as they think they are. Because of that, Cat comes across as realistic to me.

I'm not bothered by her. She's an interesting character. She's an idiot from time to time, but hey, so is everybody.

Hell, she could have saved herself a lot of trouble simply by saying "I was on my way to visit my ailing father at Riverrun" rather than taking the son of a major house hostage.

[Derthric]

I think I'm the only person who isn't bothered by Cat. I mean, I don't particularly like her, but I don't complain about her either. IMO most people aren't as smart as they think they are. Because of that, Cat comes across as realistic to me.

I don't mind Cat either, she her motivations are readily appearent throughout the series, and I don't find them out of line for her character.

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Perhaps its a sympathy for a maternal character but her attitude towards Jon is understandable, not something I condone but not one I condemn. She was the daughter of a great lord who only thought of her future to bewed and build up a house, Jon is proof that A she deep down isn't needed B a betrayal by the person who she was trained to follow and be loyal to and C he COULD be a threat to HER children. Now we as the audience know that Jon is beyond devoted to his brothers and sisters but in the back of her mind its always a possibility because she doesn't have a window into his mind like we do.

The problem she has is she is purely reactionary and not a proactive person. She doesn't plan to take tyrion she just jumps at it, same with Jamie and her anger with Stannis and Renly. She never sees past the immediate danger because the one in front of her is so massive and consuming she just wants to get through the day. Something that bites her in the ass but not something that makes her unsympathetic. At least to me

[Artemis97]

They're talking about Wheel of Time characters.

Thanks Alarra. I was quite confused there.

[VanBuren]

Nooooo! I went to Barnes and Noble today to buy a ASoS, seeing as how I'm almost finished with AGoT, and want something to read when I'm done with ACoK () and they don't have the regular paperback version! They only have the trade paperback that's $10 more (and consequently, more than is left on my gift card!) And they don't have AFfC either.

UNLESS I was to buy their little ASoIaF boxset that has all four of the books in regular paperback form... but I already own half of them.

You shall rue this day, B&N. Rue.

Rue.

Rue.

[Seerow]

Nooooo! I went to Barnes and Noble today to buy a ASoS, seeing as how I'm almost finished with AGoT, and want something to read when I'm done with ACoK () and they don't have the regular paperback version! They only have the trade paperback that's $10 more (and consequently, more than is left on my gift card!) And they don't have AFfC either.

UNLESS I was to buy their little ASoIaF boxset that has all four of the books in regular paperback form... but I already own half of them.

You shall rue this day, B&N. Rue.

Rue.

Rue.

Interesting. I just went to BAM today to get a new copy of GOT (I lost my copy about a year back and wanted to reread), and they had a half dozen copies of all of the book paperbacks, including all 3 different covers for GOT.

[VanBuren]

Interesting. I just went to BAM today to get a new copy of GOT (I lost my copy about a year back and wanted to reread), and they had a half dozen copies of all of the book paperbacks, including all 3 different covers for GOT.

Clearly you're not up here in Bellevue, WA.

Though I did see the new GoT with the cover in the front.

[Derthric]

Nooooo! I went to Barnes and Noble today to buy a ASoS, seeing as how I'm almost finished with AGoT, and want something to read when I'm done with ACoK () and they don't have the regular paperback version! They only have the trade paperback that's $10 more (and consequently, more than is left on my gift card!) And they don't have AFfC either.

UNLESS I was to buy their little ASoIaF boxset that has all four of the books in regular paperback form... but I already own half of them.

You shall rue this day, B&N. Rue.

Rue.

Rue.

Truely B&N is an interesting place where the help will ask if "the Illiad" is a recently released book.

[afroakuma]

Series has been quite awesome so far; can't wait for the finale.

Spoilers for those who have not read the book:

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I'm a bit concerned how much the finale and some of the second season will rely on the effects work on Daenerys' dragons. It's a big budget item, and they've been having enough trouble with the direwolves. The dragons' clout and ubiquity in Dany's storyline means they'll be a necessary evil.

[Flickerdart]

Spoilers for those who have not read the book:

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I'm a bit concerned how much the finale and some of the second season will rely on the effects work on Daenerys' dragons. It's a big budget item, and they've been having enough trouble with the direwolves. The dragons' clout and ubiquity in Dany's storyline means they'll be a necessary evil.

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It's quite possible that they've been holding back precisely because of the budget drain that SFXing the dragons represents. Since it would add punch to the season finale, it would be appropriately placed, too.

[VanBuren]

Boom, ran into it in Fred Meyer with a 10% off coupon. Unfortunately, it seems that when the time comes to buy AFfC, I'm going to have to swallow my pride and buy the trade paperback.

[afroakuma]

Flicker, my concern is their

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budget for next season; I fully expect you're correct about they way they handled their money for the season finale.

[Knaight]

Flicker, my concern is their

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budget for next season; I fully expect you're correct about they way they handled their money for the season finale.

Considering how quickly they renewed it, odds are good they have this under control. Moreover, given how much they were able to remove the wolves, having the dragons off screen should be plausible.

[VanBuren]

Considering how quickly they renewed it, odds are good they have this under control. Moreover, given how much they were able to remove the wolves, having the dragons off screen should be plausible.

AFAIK the wolves were actual wolves and not CGI. Maybe they're just saving it up for the dragons?

[McStabbington]

Considering how quickly they renewed it, odds are good they have this under control. Moreover, given how much they were able to remove the wolves, having the dragons off screen should be plausible.

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The dragons aren't super important on their own until the Third book. For most of book two, they are more or less animate MacGuffins that motivate the people around Dany. So I don't think it will be too hard to show them now and again for short periods while leaving them off-screen most of the time. Even in book three, there is only one plot point that really needs to be shown.

[Parra]

Don't forget that a successful first season may also bring an increased budget for the second, thus allowing fancy dragon/direwolf/battle moments

[Zocelot]

Don't forget that a successful first season may also bring an increased budget for the second, thus allowing fancy dragon/direwolf/battle moments

While I expect a bigger season 2 budget, I wouldn't expect more direwolves. I think it's an issue with how much it is possible to train wolves, not how much it costs to train wolves.

[Tiki Snakes]

While I expect a bigger season 2 budget, I wouldn't expect more direwolves. I think it's an issue with how much it is possible to train wolves, not how much it costs to train wolves.

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And the simple fact that frankly, the direwolves don't really do all that much in the books anyway, seeming more like discarded plot elements than anything?
As best I remember, at any rate.

[BRC]

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And the simple fact that frankly, the direwolves don't really do all that much in the books anyway, seeming more like discarded plot elements than anything?
As best I remember, at any rate.

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Yes, but visually they're a big part of the Stark children. It would have been nice to have them on-camera a little more often, rather than only when the plot demanded it.

[Zmflavius]

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And the simple fact that frankly, the direwolves don't really do all that much in the books anyway, seeming more like discarded plot elements than anything?
As best I remember, at any rate.

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They are, after a fashion, but this is because of the unique situation of them. Lady dies, Nymeria is driven off, Rickon is a comparatively minor character, limiting Shaggydog's appearances. So that leaves Ghost and Summer, who do appear fairly often. Nymeria reappears in AFFC.

[Cristo Meyers]

AFAIK the wolves were actual wolves and not CGI. Maybe they're just saving it up for the dragons?

I don't even think they're wolves, pretty sure they're some breed of dog...

I never realized until about 10 minutes left in the episode that this was the season finale...usually there's some more fanfare about that.

[Dienekes]

I don't even think they're wolves, pretty sure they're some breed of dog...

I never realized until about 10 minutes left in the episode that this was the season finale...usually there's some more fanfare about that.

They're a dog breed that is 2 generations or something else really close away from wolves, making them fairly hard to train.

And as to the finale, I thought it was great.

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The dragons didn't look 100% real but they weren't cartoonily bad either. Overall I thought they worked great.

But there is going to be comments on that. The rest of the episode was just as good, though I thought Jon's switch around was a bit fast, but Mormont's speech more than made up for it. My family cheered during the "King of the North" section so that probably worked well too. I like that they added some depth to Pycelle acting the old fool, it gave me a chuckle, and while I may not have liked the character much in the books I do admit that he lasted around very temperamental kings. Unfortunately I missed the scene between Baelish and Varys I'll have to watch that bit again since I have liked every scene those two have played off each other so far.

[Hallavast]

Well, that's it for season 1. Here's what I really liked about it, in summary:

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1. Pete Dinklage played a fantastic Tyrion Lannister. He does a masterful job of redefining the character for me.
2. The fight between Ser Jorah and Qotho. Ser Jorah really is a badass, and the series in general and this scene in particular remind me why he's one of my favorite characters.
3. The extrapolation between Robert and Cersei. It helps to add depth and realism to a relationship that was somewhat glossed over in the books.

Here's what I didn't care for/wish they'd done differently:

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1. They left out Ned's whole "Promise me, Ned" arc. In particular, I was hoping to see his halucination/flashback of the Tower of Joy. This scene adds so much more context to the story as a whole. I would have traded the Ned/Jaime fight scene to watch Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, give Ned Stark a lecture on loyalty and honor before they fought to the death.
2. They failed to establish Roose Bolton as a character. This will be problematic in the future.
3. The pacing of the show is unfortunate. Time constraints seem to rush through some parts I remember most fondly, yet they have to keep context somehow. This leads to a myriad of new short scenes and minor characters. Some of these are good, and some are bad. I feel that if they had a 15 episode season instead of 10, these issues might be alleviated somewhat.

All in all, it's a worthwhile show steeped in amazingly great source material. I subscribed to HBO just for this show, and overall, I don't regret it. I'd give the series a solid B (above average) rating, and while I'm rarely optimistic about anything, I look forward to the next season with enthusiasm.

[Seerow]

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1. They left out Ned's whole "Promise me, Ned" arc. In particular, I was hoping to see his halucination/flashback of the Tower of Joy. This scene adds so much more context to the story as a whole. I would have traded the Ned/Jaime fight scene to watch Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, give Ned Stark a lecture on loyalty and honor before they fought to the death.

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It was clear from the beginning that we weren't getting Tower of Joy. It just wasn't realistically going to happen. Some diehard fans really wanted it, but anyone looking at it from a pragmatic perspective saw it wasn't feasible.

1) A sudden flashback with only one character you know is too confusing to the non-reader. It would require nearly a half hour of forced exposition just to make it make sense to the non-readers out there.

2) It requires casting a dozen people for one flashback. No, you can't just get generic extras to fill in people like Lyana or the Sword of the Morning.

3) Especially included, you have to cast Howland Reed who will probably show up in a later book/season, so you need to cast him and have him on retainer for at least 5 years before using him again.

4) Even if they went through all the trouble of filming it, you'd have half the fanbase who wanted it disappointed in it. Either because of things modified for budget, or things that happen differently from how they imagined it. It really is a good scene, one that is best left to the imagination.

5) It really isn't essential to the plot for the first 4 seasons. It's background information that has no real purpose at this point. There's plenty of speculation built up around it, but there's no need for the scene to exist at this point. If (when) it becomes important in a later season, they could possibly then decide to shoot it, especially since by that point if GoT continues thriving they will have a better budget to deal with it.

[Hallavast]

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It was clear from the beginning that we weren't getting Tower of Joy. It just wasn't realistically going to happen. Some diehard fans really wanted it, but anyone looking at it from a pragmatic perspective saw it wasn't feasible.

1) A sudden flashback with only one character you know is too confusing to the non-reader. It would require nearly a half hour of forced exposition just to make it make sense to the non-readers out there.

2) It requires casting a dozen people for one flashback. No, you can't just get generic extras to fill in people like Lyana or the Sword of the Morning.

3) Especially included, you have to cast Howland Reed who will probably show up in a later book/season, so you need to cast him and have him on retainer for at least 5 years before using him again.

4) Even if they went through all the trouble of filming it, you'd have half the fanbase who wanted it disappointed in it. Either because of things modified for budget, or things that happen differently from how they imagined it. It really is a good scene, one that is best left to the imagination.

5) It really isn't essential to the plot for the first 4 seasons. It's background information that has no real purpose at this point. There's plenty of speculation built up around it, but there's no need for the scene to exist at this point. If (when) it becomes important in a later season, they could possibly then decide to shoot it, especially since by that point if GoT continues thriving they will have a better budget to deal with it.

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You make some good points that I hadn't considered. But:
1. Exposition, yes. Forced, not necessarily. The show has done an excellent job handling a great deal of exposition so far, considering its limited budget/timetables. Would the non-readers comprehend what's going on? Don't know, don't particularly care. I'm willing to be selfish on this point .
2. Lyanna is an important character in the book. The expense of casting her is justified at least. Like I said, if they felt they needed to cut out other scenes to make room for it, I wouldn't object.
3. Same with Reed. I'm not familiar with the industry, but I'm sure some kind of reasonable contract could be worked out for an actor to be hired for a sword fight. Even if it's not the same actor later on I wouldn't mind, terribly. Reed has no lines that I remember in the exchange. You could just use a double if you wanted. We don't even know if Lord Reed even gets screentime in the books yet.
4 Good point.
5. One can hope.

Come to think of it:

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It may happen when the Reed children are sent to Winterfell to declare for Robb - as a side-context to who their father is.

[Da'Shain]

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And the simple fact that frankly, the direwolves don't really do all that much in the books anyway, seeming more like discarded plot elements than anything?
As best I remember, at any rate.

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I see how you could have gotten that impression, but I really don't agree. The direwolves play a pretty large part in nearly all the childrens' lives. Even Lady getting killed off so early was Sansa's first sign that court wasn't going to be everything she thought, and drove the wedge between Sansa and her family that eventually led to her running to Cersei.

Nymeria was driven off early, but continues to have an influence even up to now, and is likely a plot thread that will be picked up sometime soon. With her gigantic, fearless wolfpack, she's adding even more chaos to the already savaged lands near the Trident, and was the one to pull UnCat from the water. And as all the Stark children seem to be wargs to some extent, she's a continuing presence in Arya's mind keeping her fierce, independent, and a Stark at heart, probably a large part of what is preventing her from giving up her identity as the Many-Faced God wants.

Grey Wind was Robb's right-hand dog, basically. He's a terror in battle, he defends Robb from all comers, and his mood around people was a good indicator of their trustworthiness, being not particularly happy around the Westerlings and almost going berserk trying to keep Robb from entering the Twins.

Summer is Bran's legs at night, and his window into the world of being a warg. He reflects Bran's personality, being calm and intelligent and sometimes even fearful, and also hunts for the party as they head to the wall.

Shaggydog, as has been said, has as little presence in the story as Rickon does, and serves pretty much only as a mirror for Rickon's own growing wildness and disquiet.

And Ghost ... Ghost is a kindred spirit for Jon, part of something special but always a bit of an outsider in his own heart. He's also Jon's connection with the wildling lands, and continues to prove himself useful in every book; heck, even in the series where they're barely showing the direwolves at all, he's already been instrumental in holding off the wights.

I don't know if any of my descriptions made sense, but in my mind, at least, the direwolves are a major part of the plot, and likely have many more parts to play before the series comes to a close. They're not POV characters (except Summer and Nymeria, for a few paragraphs) and they don't talk, but their presence is certainly felt.

[thorgrim29]

Sweet episode, fitting end to the season, though I hope the next season has more then ten episodes because some of it felt rushed. Easily enters my top 5 of awesome shows after only one viewing (it goes, in no particular order, Rome, Game of Thrones, Doctor Who, Jeckyll, a few shows that are tied).


Now on the episode:

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It would seem awesomeness is a Mormont family trait, as both father and son are pure badass (and they both make decisions that are terrible in hindsight but seem good at the time). The king of the North part is very cool, Tyrion is not buying his dear father's sudden change of heart, awesome. Jaime is perfectly cocky. No Tower flashback, but that was to be expected even tough it could have been the best scene in the show. No Shagga. I wonder how many times they had to shoot the scenes with catatonic! Drogo? Dragons!!!! The scene with Pycelle was great. I hope they keep the scene where we learn what happened to Barristan after his humiliation (nothing to so with the episode, I just hope they do). Varys and Littlefinger, as always, have great interaction. I just wanted to reach through the screen and give Sansa a hug/throttle Joffrey, so great job on their parts too. I wonder what the guy who almost quit watching after last week thought of it?