Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[TechnoScrabble]

I've got a question:
Seeing as how Orks are masculine but genderless, do they even know what a female is? Or do they just see humans with strangely symmetrical tumors?

[FlyingScanian]

I've got a question:
Seeing as how Orks are masculine but genderless, do they even know what a female is? Or do they just see humans with strangely symmetrical tumors?

I don't think this has ever been mentioned, but my educated guess would be that no, they do not understand the concept of "female"... then again, neither do they understand the concept of "male". There's just da Boyz an' da gitz...

[Nameless Ghost]

First, Wraith
Okay, more armies than I thought then.
I tend to assume that if a list stands a reasonable chance against the majority of armies, it will also be able to beat more obscure ones like 90 Grey Knights on foot.


He'Stan is expensive at 1000 points. 1/5 of your army is a lot. You have to take this into account. Putting Terminators in the list as well really limits your ability to field much of anything else.

Also, just because you're fielding He'Stan doesn't mean you should rely on Flamers and Meltas exclusively. Long range fire support is just as effective as it always is and availible in all the same places as usual.

Personally, I wouldn't actually run He'Stan until 1500 points. You'd want a core of several Tactical squads with Flamers and Multi-meltas with spare points buying Combis on the Sergeants. Multi-melta/Heavy flamer Speeders are a good choice also and can Deep Strike if necessary.

The rest of the list is variable, but I'd suggest some longer range shooting such as Predators or Devastators (which, while poor in Codex: SM compared to Blood Angels or Long Fangs, are still not an awful choice). Add Hammernators, Sternguard or Dreads as wanted. It's one of the few times I'd actually recommend an Ironclad.

Redeemers are thematic too, though it's a shame you don't get to Twin-link their Flamestorm cannons. The pintle-mounted Multi-melta upgrade is an even better choice than normal.

[Borgh]

I've got a question:
Seeing as how Orks are masculine but genderless, do they even know what a female is? Or do they just see humans with strangely symmetrical tumors?

you just reminded me of Squad Broken, you terrible person.

also:

Done, done, and done.

Well, I doubt they're perfect, but I banged these out pretty quick just to give you an idea of what Salamanders lists might look like. I'm sure someone more experienced could tweak these to be better.

LIST 1

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HQ
Vulkan He'Stan, 190pts

ELITES
Ironclad Dreadnought, 185pts
-2 Heavy Flamers
+Drop Pod

TROOPS
Tactical 10, 235pts
-Combat Squad A: Powerfist, Meltagun
-Combat Squad B: Multimelta
+Rhino

Tactical 10, 235pts
-Combat Squad A: Powerfist, Meltagun
-Combat Squad B: Multimelta
+Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder, 50pts
-Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder, 50pts
-Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder, 50pts
-Heavy Flamer


TOTAL: 995pts

LIST 2

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HQ
Vulkan He'Stan, 190pts

ELITES
Assault Terminators 5, 200pts
-TH/SS

Ironclad Dreadnought, 185pts
-2 Heavy Flamers
+Drop Pod

TROOPS
Tactical 10, 215pts
-Combat Squad A: Combi-melta, Meltagun
-Combat Squad B: Multimelta
+Rhino

Scout 10, 150pts
-Snipers, 1 Missile Launcher

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder, 60pts
-Multimelta

TOTAL: 1000pts

LIST 3

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HQ
Vulkan He'Stan, 190pts

ELITES
Ironclad Dreadnought, 185pts
-2 Heavy Flamers
+Drop Pod

TROOPS
Tactical 10, 215pts
-Combat Squad A: Combi-melta, Meltagun
-Combat Squad B: Multimelta
+Rhino

Tactical 10, 210pts
-Combat Squad A: Combi-flamer, Flamer
-Combat Squad B: Multimelta
+Rhino

FAST ATTACK
Land Speeder, 50pts
-Heavy Flamer

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastators 5, 150pts
-4 Multimeltas

TOTAL: 1000pts

At higher points, I'd use Combi-melta Suicide Sternguard, more Assault Terminators with Hammers (possibly in Redeemers), and maybe another Drop Pod Heavy Flamer Ironclad.

doens't He'stan remove the ability to combat squad?

[Nameless Ghost]

doens't He'stan remove the ability to combat squad?

You replace Combat Tactics with Chapter Tactics. Combat Squads is a different rule.

[Hootman]

It's one of the few times I'd actually recommend an Ironclad.

Wait, seriously? Ironclads are beastly on paper, and while I haven't had the chance to field mine yet (under construction), I have a feeling it'll work out pretty well. This is especially true because by Drop Podding them in first turn with double-heavy-flamer, anything that looks even slightly like infantry is gonna get obliterated.

And while I would normally grant that infantry tend to hide in cover and transports on turn 1, I'll add that the other 1000 or so points of my army are brimming with missile launchers, and I've got Podding Sternguard if there are any really heavy things that I need melta'd immediately.

EDIT: Sorry, that sounded a lot more preachy/defensive than I intended. This is, after all, a friendly tactics thread. Have you used Ironclads in the past and found them unreliable?

[Timberwolf]

I use the Blood Angel equivalent Hootman, which is a Drop podding Furioso with Frag cannon. I have had excellent results with it, massacring the best part of a squad of Gaunts in 2 shots or tying Kharn and a 10 man berserker squad up for 4 rounds, I have had terrible ill luck as well and had it fried by rail guns the second it popped the hatch or immobilised by a Vindicare before it could smash his teeth in or not been able to land it properly due to the sheer mass of orks.

I'd say it works for me 2 times out of 3. It's just too much of a threat to be ignored and cannot be allowed to pick its target to charge.

[Nameless Ghost]

I've not used an Ironclad myself, only had experience playing against them. Almost every time, the Ironclad's been melta'ed or disabled in one way or another. Those meltas almost certainly aren't in range of anything else, so I'm not really losing anything by firing them at the Ironclad.

AV13 walkers are great in theory. But I wouldn't want one on its own, nor to send it on a suicide mission unless it had a high chance of success. A single melta weapon is unreliable. A single twin-linked BS4 melta weapon becomes a credible threat. The same is true for the flamers. Two twin-linked Heavy flamers will roast anything that's not in power armour.

If there's an Ironclad coming, I'll deploy to minimise the impact and try to ensure it can't make itself into a decent trade. An an enemy Ironclad for a transport, even one as expensive as a Devilfish, is definitely in my favour.

Now, normally I'll ensure I can block said Ironclad off if I fail to destroy it. However, against an army that wants to be moving forward as much as possible to bring a bunch more close-range weapons to bear, I actually have to consider if I want to be blocking those units instead and let the Ironclad wait another turn. Conversely, in an army that wants to hang back and shoot, Ironclads are out of place.

Oh, and there's the fact it fits the Salamanders way of war quite well according to the fluff, which might be a deciding factor for some people.

[Wraith]

What options available to Grey Knights make you think so?

Mind, I don't want to get into an argument here, I'm quite willing to just yield to the instincts of a more experienced player, I'm just curious what I might be missing, and learn something new in the process.

Oh please, don't think I'm looking to argue. If you think that I'm wrong, I'd be more than happy to hear why (It'd hardly be the first time, after all )!

As I see it, a lot of what makes Grey Knights so good, are that they seem to have the best upgrades available to all the other Marine Codices. Deep Striking/Storm Ravening Terminators will make an awful mess of any Infantry army, and they get free Thunder Hammers to boot - that they're also Troops and can claim objectives makes them almost mandatory choices. Also compare Interceptor Squads with their close approximations, Assault Marines. More or less similar.... except, free Power Weapons, they can guarantee a Second Turn Assault and 1/3rd price Thunder Hammers.

Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts (now with Fortitude and 'better' Tech Marines to keep them rolling), Land Raiders, all the old favourites are there for armour breaking and everything in Grey Knights are generally better in close combat than the average Space Marine, which is an impressive feat. If only they had Drop Pods....

Then we consider their unique stuff, like Scouting a Dreadknight right onto your opponents' welcome mat - those guys will happily chew through either armour or infantry from turn 2 onwards (or earlier, with the right weapons). I think they could well be the new Wraithlords with a little practice, in that people will soon be looking at what they can do and saying "Holy ****, that's awesome!" You can make them into Jump Infantry, for crying out loud!

Again, your use of the word 'instinct' is probably the best way to describe it. I just think that Grey Knights are considerably better than other Marine equivalents (who are already very good lists, by and large) and are still a little undercosted for it.

Well... maybe, but I think this has more to do with the Grey Knight codex having two completely diametrically different kinds of units at its disposal

Absolutely. That always seems to be how Daemonhunters was supposed to work, but this time it seems to have been done 'properly'.

But he is top 3 in the codex from rules perspective.

Shrike, Vulcan or Lysander are the best guys in the book.

Perhaps a subjective topic. I consider Kantor, Lysander and Shrike to be the better characters, but then that might only be because they suit the sort of armies that I like to play. Each to their own, perhaps.

Lacking the 2+ armour save, high Wounds or decent Invulnerable that other MCs use is nothing? Strange definition there mate.

Okay, time to come clean: It's not a very good example. I admit it, I'm trying to argue a point that, actually, just doesn't work as well as I'd hoped.

The underlying point is still the same, though. He'Stan isn't overpowered because you pay a reasonable points cost and get a good character with a reasonable ability to build an army around, rather than paying little for a good character with a great ability.

Really though, I'd like a nice long ranged unit to bunker my Inquisitors in for the first turn before the Terminators and Dreadknight DS in.

In smaller sized games, you're better off with more bodies than vehicles, so a Purgation Squad is probably the way to go. 230 points gets you 7 bodies with 4 Psycannon; it's never going to be a Vanilla Marines' Devastator Squad, but it should suffice.

Alternatively, a couple of Dreadnoughts without any upgrades could just about squeeze in there. They wouldn't work as well, probably, but their Close Combat Weapons at least makes them somewhat effective at tackling any Deep Striking units that land nearby after they'd finished their long raged roles.

Okay, more armies than I thought then.

Yeah, sorry to mug you like that, but harsh experience has told me that no army can account for absolutely everything that it might come across!

[Nameless Ghost]

Yeah, sorry to mug you like that, but harsh experience has told me that no army can account for absolutely everything that it might come across!

I'd have to disagree, in theory. I think that a well-built army should have a reasonable chance of beating anything it comes up against. If you can admit that your army has a weakness to something, you modify it to cover for that weakness, either through changing units around or using different tactics.


I think one of the reasons people like He'Stan so much is that he's a lot easier to build around than many of the other HQ choices. His special rules are simple and don't really require much in the way of tactics above and beyond what you'd normally be doing.

With Khan, for example, you're looking at Outflanking Bikes or Transports, and someone can look at that and think it's a bit too unpredictable, or they're unsure how good bikes are as Troops (very!), or they don't know how to deploy such an army. You don't really have those sorts of problems with He'Stan.


On Grey Knights... they do get a lot of fun toys, but I think that playing them just the same as any other chapter isn't going to be as effective. Just like Blood Angels get almost everything in Codex: Space Marines, but tend to play completely differently.

GK shouldn't have any real problem with Deep Striking enemy units though. Warp Quake is there for a reason.

[Craftworld]

1500 point list for a tournament coming up. I got most of it but I need help choosing where to go with is specifically.

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HQ
Farseer-Mind War, Doom, Spirit Stones(Rides with Banshees or with Dire Avengers)
120 points

Howling Banshees-6, Exarch, Mirror Blades, Acrobatic
123 points
-Wave Serpent-Twin Linked Bright Lances
1235 points
Fre Dragons-5
80 points
-Wave Serpent-Twin Linked Eldar Missile Launchers
120 points
Striking Scorpians-6, Exarch, Biting Blade, Stalker(come in from a side, waste artillery or infantry in the back of the field ie-Basilisks, Vincicators, Leman Russes)
133 points

Dire Avengers-10, Exarch, 2 Shurikan Catapults, Bladestorm
152 points
-Wave Serpent-Twin Linked Scatter Lasers
105 points
Dire Avengers-10, Exarch, 2 Shurikan Catapults, Bladestorm
152 points
-Wave Serpent-Twin Linked Scatter Lasers
105 points

Night Spinner-Holo Fields
150 points

I have two options in mind for the last 125 points
Option 1

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Guardian Defenders-10, Shurikan Cannon, Warlock with Embolden
125 points
The good things are that I have more toop choices, and a lower points per model but the bad things are that it A. messes with the Mech/Outflank thing I have going and they will draw a lot of fire because they aren't tanks.

Option 2

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Spirit Stones for all vehicles
50 points
Farseer-Guide(or other 20 point power)
75 points
I like this because it keeps my vehicles moving and I get a Farseer that with Guide will help my guys...if I give him guide he is riding with my Dragons.

Suggestions?

[Turcano]

Also are stormravens a good investment?

Oh God yes. It's a Fast, deep-striking transport that can take a teleport homer, allowing you to safely deploy terminators or interceptors in addition to its standard capacity, and it's one of three units that give you serious anti-armor capability (the other two being warrior acolytes and Jokaero). Take as many of them as you can.

Although if more than one person wants one...

I wants it.

[Incomp]

...and it's one of three units that give you serious anti-armor capability (the other two being warrior acolytes and Jokaero)

I do want to protest this mildly. Psycannons are actually pretty good anti-tank. They don't hit like meltas, of course, but they're considerably stronger than lascannons for, IIRC, about the same price.

Some crude mathammer below. Don't object to my findings if they're inexact, it's late and I don't care that much.

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Alright, we have 16 psycannon shots against, say, a land raider. 2/3s hit, that is, 10 and 1/2 hits. One in six rend. That's two and a half. Two thirds of these penetrate, and the remainder glance. That leaves us with just over one and a half penetrates, and just under one glance.

Now we have 4 lascannon shots against the same target. Two thirds hit, which is just about two and a half, and one third, about .8 (yes I did just switch over to decimals, get over it) get past the armor in some way. One half of these penetrate, the other half glances; 1/5 of a pen, 1/5 of a glance.

I know which one I like better.

[Turcano]

You can swap out the Storm Raven's twin-linked heavy bolter and twin-linked assault cannon for a twin-linked multi-melta and a twin-linked lascannon for free, so it's kind of difficult to gauge the cost comparison of psycannons.

[Ricky S]

You can swap out the Storm Raven's twin-linked heavy bolter and twin-linked assault cannon for a twin-linked multi-melta and a twin-linked lascannon for free, so it's kind of difficult to gauge the cost comparison of psycannons.

The most popular set up I have seen is the twin linked multi-melta and twin linked assault cannon. Most people leave off the bolter side sponsons at least in my local area.

Edit: What does everyone think of the new finecast miniatures?

[Arcanoi]

Grey Knight Librarians are SCARY. Watched a game today where two Ironclads drop down on turn one, so the Librarian stacks two Hammerhands and a Might of Titan on his squad to pump them to S7 with 2d6 Penetration and wipes them both off them board.

[Cheesegear]

I must be missing something because Black Templar assault squads (as in the unit of that name) are pretty terrible. Best use I've found for them is plasma pistoling the rear armour of tanks and tarpitting monstrous creatures with their storm shields. They're worse in assault than regular Black Templars (are are pretty good).

...Huh. Well then, maybe my meta-game is messed up. Because, as everyone and their dog knows, Chaplains work best when they hang around with Assault Squads. And Black Templars love their Chaplains.

Remember that Righteous Zeal only effects infantry, not jump infantry or bikes.

Of course, my bad.

They're slower than BA assault squads (you know, the only good space marine jump infantry).

No. Wrong. False. Since Righteous Zeal doesn't affect JI (lame...), it turns out they're exactly the same speed. Except that Black Templars have access to Preferred Enemy, and walk around with Chaplains instead of Librarian spam.

BA Assault Squads are good because they can transport spam. Not because they're actually good Jump Infantry. Descent of Angels turns something horrible into something not-too-terrible. And only, really for Sanguinary Guard.

BT Assault Squads are what you field when you've run out of points to fit in another Crusader Squad in a Crusader. Which is often.

Yo dawg, I heard you like crusading so we put Crusaders in your Crusaders so you can crusade while you crusade.


...Damn. Now you've gone and made me want to start Templars. NO! Bad Cheesegear! Do you see the models coming out for Dark Eldar!? STICK TO THE PLAN!!!

[Tome]

Grey Knight Librarians are SCARY. Watched a game today where two Ironclads drop down on turn one, so the Librarian stacks two Hammerhands and a Might of Titan on his squad to pump them to S7 with 2d6 Penetration and wipes them both off them board.

He could have used Warp Rift for much the same effect too.

I figure a Purgation Squad is probably the best option for my GK army, plus it leaves me with enough points for a small bodyguard unit for my Inquisitors, so I'll be trying this list out on Wednesday. If anyone spots any changes that can still be made, let me know.

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HQ
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 72 Points
Mastery Level 1: Psychic Communion
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Power Armour
+Servo-Skulls (x3)

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 72 Points
Mastery Level 1: Psychic Communion
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Power Armour
+Servo-Skulls (x3)

ELITES
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x4) - 51 Points
Crusader x2, Inquisitorial Servitor W/Multi-Melta x1, Warrior Acolyte W/Carapace Armour & Storm Bolter x1

TROOPS
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 470 Points
Nemesis Daemon Hammer x1, Nemesis Force Halberds x9, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2

Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 470 Points
Nemesis Daemon Hammer x1, Nemesis Force Halberds x9, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2

FAST ATTACK

HEAVY SUPPORT
Purgation Squad (x5) - 180 Points
Psycannon x4

Nemesis Dreadknight - 185 Points
Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword

TOTAL: 1500 Points (32 Models)

[Closet_Skeleton]

...Huh. Well then, maybe my meta-game is messed up. Because, as everyone and their dog knows, Chaplains work best when they hang around with Assault Squads. And Black Templars love their Chaplains.

Whenever I use assault squads I run a chaplain with terminator honours as well. Something like 2 plasma pistols, 3 storm shields and power fist. I just find that a crusader squad in a rhino usually performs better and never use my assault squad.

Maybe I've just been playing 1500 points too often.

I'm not too found of my Chaplains when they can't make a single 4+ to wound roll to save their lives. They're good when they wipe out units of guard veterans single handedly.

No. Wrong. False. Since Righteous Zeal doesn't affect JI (lame...), it turns out they're exactly the same speed.

Until the Blood Angels Assault marines do the smart thing and dump their jump packs entirely for a fast rhino (and end up basically as crusader squads).

BT Assault Squads are what you field when you've run out of points to fit in another Crusader Squad in a Crusader. Which is often.

Reclusiarch
terminator honours, jump pack, artificer armour, frag grenades and bolt pistol
152 points

Assault Squad
3 storm shields, 2 plasma pistols, power fist, 10 strong
290 points

442 points

5 assault terminators with furious charge
215 points

Land Raider crusader
265 points

480 points.

I'm sure my chaplain/assault squad load out isn't that great but I know I can get those 38 points from somewhere pretty easily so I always go with the latter option unless I'm already using both my Land raider models. Black Templars are the best army at squeezing in an extra few points, you just change the initiate/neophyte ratio.

[Cheesegear]

Until the Blood Angels Assault marines do the smart thing and dump their jump packs entirely for a fast rhino (and end up basically as crusader squads).

Except then they're not Jump Infantry then, are they?
Besides, still wrong.

A Fast Rhino goes 12", and dudes get out (or not). They can't Assault. Alternatively, a Fast Rhino goes 18" and the people inside can neither get out or shoot. Maybe you paid extra for Dozer Blades to move terrain. But, you still paid extra points.

Assault Squads jump 12". Ignoring terrain. And even getting into the floors of buildings in one turn. Something which makes all transport-based units cry. Then shoot. Then maybe Assault if you can. Either way you moved between 12-18" just like a Rhino-based unit, except now you might be in Assault and not getting shot at.

I'm sure my chaplain/assault squad load out isn't that great

I will agree with you.

[Timberwolf]

The most popular set up I have seen is the twin linked multi-melta and twin linked assault cannon. Most people leave off the bolter side sponsons at least in my local area.

I don't leave home without those things but that's a peculiarity of my favourite way to play, namely sniper scouts and dreadnoughts. The sponsons are my ranged horde control.

T/L Multi Melta and Assault cannon is great and it's easily the best general set up, but if you're running more than 1 gunship, you can sometimes afford to be a bit specialist with your set up. I've found Lascannon / Typhoon launcher has its moments of joy, especially with a Shield of Sanguinius Librarian providing the cover save so you don't have to move and can sling missiles and cannon fire downrange all day from the safety of the backfield.

[Turcano]

The most popular set up I have seen is the twin linked multi-melta and twin linked assault cannon. Most people leave off the bolter side sponsons at least in my local area.

Okay, are these Storm Ravens in Grey Knights armies or Blood Angels armies? Because Blood Angels aren't hurting for anti-armor the way Grey Knights are.

[Ricky S]

Okay, are these Storm Ravens in Grey Knights armies or Blood Angels armies? Because Blood Angels aren't hurting for anti-armor the way Grey Knights are.

For the grey knights. I haven't seen any blood angels players that use Storm ravens. Everyone who I have seen with blood angels runs a rhino spam or nipplewing.

[hamishspence]

For the blood angels the Stormraven ends up competing with potentially more useful Heavy Support choices.

Whereas for the Grey Knights it's a FA choice.

That might mean they're better for GKs.

[lord_khaine]

For the blood angels the Stormraven ends up competing with potentially more useful Heavy Support choices.

Whereas for the Grey Knights it's a FA choice.

That might mean they're better for GKs.

This is something i really cant understand though, the Stormraven is a fast skimmer thats also an assult vehicle, and its able to carry something with Bloodtalons all the way to the enemy frontline.

All the BA players i know use a minimum of 1 Stormraven.

[Winterwind]

Oh please, don't think I'm looking to argue. If you think that I'm wrong, I'd be more than happy to hear why (It'd hardly be the first time, after all )!

As I see it, a lot of what makes Grey Knights so good, are that they seem to have the best upgrades available to all the other Marine Codices. Deep Striking/Storm Ravening Terminators will make an awful mess of any Infantry army, and they get free Thunder Hammers to boot - that they're also Troops and can claim objectives makes them almost mandatory choices. Also compare Interceptor Squads with their close approximations, Assault Marines. More or less similar.... except, free Power Weapons, they can guarantee a Second Turn Assault and 1/3rd price Thunder Hammers.

Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts (now with Fortitude and 'better' Tech Marines to keep them rolling), Land Raiders, all the old favourites are there for armour breaking and everything in Grey Knights are generally better in close combat than the average Space Marine, which is an impressive feat. If only they had Drop Pods....

Then we consider their unique stuff, like Scouting a Dreadknight right onto your opponents' welcome mat - those guys will happily chew through either armour or infantry from turn 2 onwards (or earlier, with the right weapons). I think they could well be the new Wraithlords with a little practice, in that people will soon be looking at what they can do and saying "Holy ****, that's awesome!" You can make them into Jump Infantry, for crying out loud!

Again, your use of the word 'instinct' is probably the best way to describe it. I just think that Grey Knights are considerably better than other Marine equivalents (who are already very good lists, by and large) and are still a little undercosted for it.

The way I see it, when it comes to Grey Knights themselves (Inquisitorial Henchmen are a bit of a different story), it's like this: They pack more punch than Space Marines, but can take less punch themselves:
* Their Terminators are strictly superior to Space Marine Terminators, but they have no way to get an Invulnerable save better than 5+ against shooting, and for the most part only 4+ against close combat - they are far more fragile and, arguably, still inferior to Hammernators.
* Strike Squads having their special abilities and equipment for just 4 points more than Tactical Marines seems like a bargain - until you consider their firepower isn't actually all that much superior while their durability against shooting is not superior at all. A blast that kills a bunch of Space Marines will kill just as many Grey Knights, and these 4 points per model will accumulate quickly. Moreover, against hordes, they actually fare worse in combat than Space Marines do - their force weapons will be worthless if the enemy has only 6+ armour anyway, so then they are basically just Space Marines that lose 4 points more than normal with every model that dies. Lastly, no plasma weapons, no meltaguns, is decidedly a problem against many targets.
* Purifiers don't have the problem against hordes, but now we're already talking about 24 points minimum - more likely 26 though - per model, which still are not even in the slightest more durable against shooting than a regular Space Marine. Now every single loss really hurts.
* Paladins are even more expensive, don't have all that much more offensive power compared to how much they cost, and against many weapons that could be used against them, they still aren't any more durable than regular Terminators with 5+ Invulnerable saves
* very little firepower with more than 24" range.

So overall, the way I see it, Space Marines have the following advantages:
* superior anti-tank weaponry in the form of meltas
* superior weaponry against heavily armoured targets in the form of plasma weapons
* superior ability to get units into specific locations early on in the form of Drop Pods and Scouts
* lose anything between less points and much less points per model while being just as durable, if not moreso
* more forms of long range firepower
* bikes and landspeeders, for additional mobility

Yes, when Grey Knights get into close combat with Space Marines, the Space Marines will be torn apart, but honestly, between overall better point-for-point durability, more long range firepower and superior mobility, I really don't think Grey Knights are stronger than Codex Space Marines. Not weaker, either; I think both codizes are about as strong.

Consider this: If you take Vanguard and give every single one of them a powerweapon (and nothing else), they will end up pretty darn costly, and probably not worth it at all, right? Because, while they may hit like a truck, every single one of them lost will cost you a ton of points. So what does this mean? Well, it means that a unit of Vanguard all equipped with powerweapons should be cheaper, for the points to be a closer approximation of their actual worth on the battlefield. And that, in turn, means that just because something should cost some amount of points when taken as a solitary upgrade in the entire unit, it should cost much, much less if taken as an upgrade for the entire unit, or you end up with something completely overcosted and not worth its points. Which is precisely why Grey Knights get so much stuff for costing just a few more points than regular Space Marines. Imagine the prices established in Codex Space Marines had actually applied to Strike Squads. Okay, so we have a 16 points base Space Marine, +15 points for a power weapon, +5 points for a stormbolter, let's say another +1 points for anti-psi-grenades, how much do you reckon a forceweapon should cost over a powerweapon? Let's be cheritable and say +2 points, and, what do you think would be fair to upgrade Combat Tactics to Hammerhand, Warp Quake and Aegis? Let's say +1 points, though we know all too well that in Codex Space Marines, you'd probably pay at least 10 points to upgrade a model with all that.

So what we're left with are Strike Squads that cost 40 points per model. Probably 65 point Terminators. Paladins at at least 80 points.

Would the Grey Knights Codex actually be viable if it was priced like this? Of course not. It would be a ridiculous push-over that would be regularly tabled within two or three turns by even the weakest army.

Because, again, upgrades are worth less if they are mandatory on every single model in the unit, so you neither can avoid ending up with overkill nor with meatshields to protect the upgrades. If an upgrade is mandatory on every single model in the unit, the upgrade must cost less, if the resulting unit is to still be priced according to its expected performance on the table. That's why the Grey Knights get so many toys that would cost so very much more in Codex Space Marines. Because they have no option not to get them, making these so much more vulnerable.


...sorry for the incoherent rambling. I hope I managed to, more or less, explain my thought process when it comes to the Grey Knights and their pricing.

[Timberwolf]

This is something i really cant understand though, the Stormraven is a fast skimmer thats also an assult vehicle, and its able to carry something with Bloodtalons all the way to the enemy frontline.

All the BA players i know use a minimum of 1 Stormraven.

Indeed. In a 1250+ game I'll use 2. I'm toying with a list for the next tournament that has 3. True, they're competing with Vindicators and Predators, but they're a sight less easy to render useless than a Vindicator (weapon destroyed kills the big V as much as wrecking it) and Predators can't get a +4 save while carrying a talon Dread and an assault unit right to where they're needed while simultaneously getting into Multimelta megadeath range or while spilitting their fire to kill a tank and rake an infantry unit to death. Also, Stormravens have, to my mind, the better armour placement, it's marginally easier to kill from the front, but harder to kill from the sides and back which, given its size and configuration, is not a bad thing. Plus, for BA, the Bloodstrike missiles are great, monstrous creature killers as they're S8, AP1 with a 72" range. Tyrannofex ? What Tyrannofex ?

Of course, there is the annoyance of getting immobilised while going flat out when the dice let you down, and the fact that it needs a really big building to hide behind to get cover without going fast but I feel they're minor compared with the advantages.

I would still love it if they were fast attack though. That wouild be their natural home and make me very happy.

[Nameless Ghost]

HQ
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 72 Points
Mastery Level 1: Psychic Communion
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Power Armour
+Servo-Skulls (x3)

Ordo Xenos Inquisitor - 72 Points
Mastery Level 1: Psychic Communion
Bolt Pistol, Force Sword, Power Armour
+Servo-Skulls (x3)
Coteaz is 100 points and will make your Warbands scoring. I don't recall if he gets Communion or not though. I would make these Inquisitors as cheap as possible as their only real goal is to guide units in.

ELITES
Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband (x4) - 51 Points
Crusader x2, Inquisitorial Servitor W/Multi-Melta x1, Warrior Acolyte W/Carapace Armour & Storm Bolter x1
What is this unit supposed to be doing? Crusaders and a Servitor? You don't need any kind of assault presence because of the Termies.

Buy more Servitors and more bodies to protect them and the Inquisitor from being torrented off the table by all of the anti-infantry fire that will come their way on the first turn. Then buy another unit for your other Inquisitor.

I would highly suggest having Coteaz. Making these units scoring is a very good way to ensure they're a threat, and as they'll be hanging about in your deployment zone anyway while your Termies attack the enemy objectives, it only makes sense to have them holding home objectives.

TROOPS
Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 470 Points
Nemesis Daemon Hammer x1, Nemesis Force Halberds x9, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2

Grey Knight Terminator Squad (x10) - 470 Points
Nemesis Daemon Hammer x1, Nemesis Force Halberds x9, Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannon x2
I want to like GK Termies, but just can't. I assume Psycannons are 1 in every 5 models? But if you can get more, do so.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Purgation Squad (x5) - 180 Points
Psycannon x4
My issue with Purgation squads is the range. A canny opponent will deploy as to take them out of the game for several turns. In Dawn of War you're stuck walking on, which can really hurt with only 24" range.

I honestly don't think they're needed and you're better off with another Dreadknight or spending the points on more Henchmen.

Nemesis Dreadknight - 185 Points
Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword
I would cut the sword personally. Rerolls on everything is awesome, but the alternative is being S10 - which is usually enough. You don't want to be using a 180-odd point model to cut up cheap transports, after all.

TOTAL: 1500 Points (32 Models)

Obligatory text outside the quote box to actually be allowed to post.

[Winterwind]

Coteaz is 100 points and will make your Warbands scoring. I don't recall if he gets Communion or not though. I would make these Inquisitors as cheap as possible as their only real goal is to guide units in.

Away from codex, but I think Coteaz doesn't have Communion, sadly.
I'd suggest giving at least one of them a Conversion Beam - having it babysit a unit with Servitors would make sense anyway, so that the Warband doesn't end up being offline half of the time, might as well be useful while doing so. Though in that case, I'd give the Servitor something longer ranged. Like a Plasma Cannon.

I would highly suggest having Coteaz. Making these units scoring is a very good way to ensure they're a threat, and as they'll be hanging about in your deployment zone anyway while your Termies attack the enemy objectives, it only makes sense to have them holding home objectives.

He's also required to make them legal, as otherwise one isn't allowed to have more Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands than Inquisitors.
Also, Servitors in units with no Inquisitors? That's... really not a good idea. Remember that without an Inquisitor in a unit with Servitors, you have to roll every round, and half of the time, the entire unit is not allowed to act. Not just the Servitor.

[Nameless Ghost]

Away from codex, but I think Coteaz doesn't have Communion, sadly.
I'd suggest giving at least one of them a Conversion Beam - having it babysit a unit with Servitors would make sense anyway, so that the Warband doesn't end up being offline half of the time, might as well be useful while doing so. Though in that case, I'd give the Servitor something longer ranged. Like a Plasma Cannon.

I think the Multi-meltas are a superior choice in an army filled with Terminators that are capable of cutting through armour when needed, although with all those Servo skulls floating around, the blasts would be quite effective...

He's also required to make them legal, as otherwise one isn't allowed to have more Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands than Inquisitors.
Also, Servitors in units with no Inquisitors? That's... really not a good idea. Remember that without an Inquisitor in a unit with Servitors, you have to roll every round, and half of the time, the entire unit is not allowed to act. Not just the Servitor.

Ah, maybe I wasn't too clear.

The list currently has 2 Inquisitors and 1 Warband. I was advocating replacing one Inquisitor with Coteaz and taking a second Warband (so both would be Troops rather than not-Elites), the idea being that you attach Coteaz to first and the other Inquisitor to the second.