Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[pilvento]

And since the Storm Shield wont allow me to reclaim the +1 attack for an extra close combat weapon, then its only worth to use a lightning claw...

Am i right?

[Nameless Ghost]

And since the Storm Shield wont allow me to reclaim the +1 attack for an extra close combat weapon, then its only worth to use a lightning claw...

Am i right?

If you can't get the +1 attack bonus, then always go for the Lightning claw. I believe the Lightning claw is actually a superior choice even if you would have gotten +1 attack from having a Power weapon instead because in most cases, the rerolls make up for it.

That said, the rerolls from Lightning claws are less useful if you have a higher Strength, and as Khan's Command Squad will have Furious Charge, you'll often be S5. Against T3 targets, the Power weapon becomes superior, but against most other things the Lightning claw remains better.

So, essentially, Lightning claws are the way to go.

Although, I should point out that it can be rather difficult to find non-Terminator Lightning claws/Storm shields, because, for some reason, GW doesn't put them into the Command Squad box.

[pilvento]

List re-writen thanks again for your advices and especially, the patience

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HQ [530]
Khan w/ Moondrakkan
Command Squad w/ Apothecary, Lightning claw x4, Storm shield x4

Elites [520]
Sternguard w/ x2 Meltagun, w/ Las-Plas Razorback
Sternguard w/ x2 Meltagun, w/ Las-Plas Razorback

Troops [390]
Bike Squad w/ 2x Meltagun, Combi-Flamer, Extra bike, Multi-melta Attack bike
Bike Squad w/ 2x Meltagun, Combi-Flamer, Extra bike, Multi-melta Attack bike

Fast Attack [60]
Land Speeder w/Heavy flamer, aditional Heavy flamer

1500 pts

Some reasons are:

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I already own 2 razorbacks and the land speeders
Bikes are extreamly expensive ($$$) to get more than 4 or 5 boxes this year
The 2xPredator list was a nice idea, but i cant aford them... yet
I really want to use the Khan + Command Squad unit, and shout when it flanks.

Any more idea or advice just let me now

[Tarinaky]

I've been playing around with White Scars a little bit. I notice that the Sarge figures have very cool looking Powerweapons (sortof... glaive like things) but I'm unsure how useful they'd actually be since you probably only want to charge when you have overwhelming advantage/clean-up anyway.

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=White Scars, 1,500pts=

HQ - Kor'sarro Khan - 205pts
Moondrakkan

Troops - Scout Squad - 80pts
5x Scouts
Meltabombs

Troops - Scout Squad - 80pts
5x Scouts
Meltabombs

Troops - Bike Squad - 265pts
6x Bikers
2x Plasmaguns
Meltabombs, Powerweapon

Troops - Bike Squad - 265pts
6x Bikers
2x Plasmaguns
Meltabombs, Powerweapon

Fast - Landspeeder Storm - 65pts
Multimelta

Fast - Landspeeder Storm - 65pts
Multimelta

Fast - Attack Bike Squadron - 160pts
3x Heavy Bolters

Heavy - Predator - 105pts
Twinlinked Lascannons

Heavy - Predator - 105pts
Twinlinked Lascannons

Heavy - Predator - 105pts
Twinlinked Lascannons

I went with Landspeeder Storms (with Scouts) because there's no situation where a Deepstriking, Scoring, Meltagun will go amiss.

The three predators is mostly for cracking open transports so the plasmaguns can do their magic - I could probably downgrade them to autocannons as a result but I'm not sure that'd be wise.

The Attack Bikes are just to pad out the points because I couldn't think of anything else I could afford other than a squad of Landspeeders.

[Zorg]

And since the Storm Shield wont allow me to reclaim the +1 attack for an extra close combat weapon, then its only worth to use a lightning claw...

Am i right?

Actually the Command Squad replace their CCW with a Power Sword / Lightning Claw, but keep their bolt pistols - the Storm Shield is a seperate upgrade so if they had the Power Sword they would still gain the +1 attack, and have the 3++ save.

This has rules precedence from a similar situation in the Dark Angels codex where you could have a Company Master with a Plasma Pistol, Combi-weapon and a pair of Lightning Claws!

[Hootman]

Actually the Command Squad replace their CCW with a Power Sword / Lightning Claw, but keep their bolt pistols - the Storm Shield is a seperate upgrade so if they had the Power Sword they would still gain the +1 attack, and have the 3++ save.

Storm Shields specifically state that a model equipped with one may never gain the bonus attack from dual-weilding. If you DID still possess the pistol, you would be allowed to fire it before assaulting, but not use it in the assault itself.


EDIT: I just came across something interesting/confusing, and I would appreciate it if people could weigh in on this.

For the purpose of this question, the set up is this: Witch Hunters Inquisitor with Bolter-Stake Crossbow and the unit he is attached to fire on a unit comprised of a Space Marine Librarian and some Tactical Marines. The special ability of the Bolter-Stake Crossbow is that, when it hits a psyker, it always wounds on a 2+ and allows no normal armor saves (Otherwise, S3 AP5). Assuming the Inquisitor and his bro's fire on the Librarian + Space Marines unit, and the Inquisitor scores at least one hit, how do I roll to wound?

[Zorg]

Indeed, I was misremembering as never claim it for the SS being the second weapon - my bad.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

This question will look incredible stupid, but im sorry cause so far i played eldar...

Comand squad:

lightning claw...15pts
Power weapon..15pts

so this space marine noobs has to ask: diference?

Lighning claws gives a re-roll on failed to wound rolls but only grants +1 attack if combined with another lightning claw.

Power weapon gives +1 attack if combined with another weapon that grants +1 attack (for example pistols or ccw).

EDIT: Ninja'd to hell and back.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The razorwing looks even better from the angle on the pre-order page

Finally managed a win against a local annoying Grey Knights Draigo and Paladins list.

I used:

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HQ
Librarian, unleash rage, sanguine sword
100 points

Elites
Sanguinary Priest

Furioso Dreadnought with extra armour and blood talons
150 points

Furioso Librarian with unleash rage and wings of sanguinius
175 points

Troops
Tactical squad with powerfist, storm bolter, lascannon and plasma gun
218

Tactical squad with powerfist, plasma cannon and plasma gun
210

10 deathcompany with boltguns
200 points

Deathcompany Dreadnought with bloodfists
125

Deathcompany Dreadnought with bloodtalons and searchlight
126

Heavy Support
Dreadnought with twin autocannons
120 points

1464 points

My blood talon deathcompany dread got blown up turn 1 by a out of sight purgation squad I failed to psychic hood into uselessness.

My blood talon furioso mutually annihilated against a dreadknight I wounded with its melta gun and a plasma gun the previous turn.

But this allowed the flying dread to sneak round through line of sight blocking cover and charge the purgation squad, who got ground down to 1 man over several turns until that guy got away only to be boltgunned to death by my deathcompany.

My bloodfists deathcompany dread charged his only strike squad on their objective after losing his arm to a psycannon and managed to break them only to get killed by the enemy's multimelta venerable dreadnought. My firebase managed to blow the dreads power fist off next turn in revenge.

Once the purgation squad were dealt with my librarian dreadnought was on its own against a shaken multimelta dread, but managed to shut down the dread with its psychic hood and charge the thing.

Draigo's squad finally outflanked (using the mission special rule but grand strategy would have surficed) to take out my objective holding tacitcal squads. I shot at them a lot but only killed one paladin and caused a single wound to Draigo before he killed two combat squads and took an objective.

The venerable dread took longer for my Librarian dread to kill than I wanted, so I threw my autocannon dread into combat with Draigo to slow him down while my remaining tactical squad retreated around their objective. He never managed to get more than 1 hammer hand past my psychic hood so despite glancing me with a few 6s from Draigo my dread was fine until the librarian was able to fly over and help him.

The librarian dread killed two paladins on the turn it charged, but had to consolidate against Draigo and got smashed to pieces quite easily by his S10.

Draigo lost another wound to perils of the warp and another in a way I can't remember. After several rounds of helplessness my autocannon dread got lucky and headbutted Draigo to death with its sarcophagus.

My opponent concieded with just a paladin apothacary in combat with an autocannon dread while I had a 1 under full strength tactical squad on an objective, a librarian who had down nothing but use his psychic good and an unharmed unit of deathcompany left. Then we released we'd forgotten what turn it was and it should probably have been a draw. I think Draigo turned up turn 4 so I might have been contesting him with my dreadnought or a combat squad at the end of turn 6.

Would have gone worse for me if he'd had a single daemonhammer.

[Wraith]

For the purpose of this question, the set up is this: Witch Hunters Inquisitor with Bolter-Stake Crossbow and the unit he is attached to fire on a unit comprised of a Space Marine Librarian and some Tactical Marines. The special ability of the Bolter-Stake Crossbow is that, when it hits a psyker, it always wounds on a 2+ and allows no normal armor saves (Otherwise, S3 AP5). Assuming the Inquisitor and his bro's fire on the Librarian + Space Marines unit, and the Inquisitor scores at least one hit, how do I roll to wound?

I think the rules for allocating wounds on Complex Units (page 25 of the Main Rule Book) should solve this problem for you.

To paraphrase: Your opponent chooses which models in his unit are being wounded, so they decide whether to have the attack effect an ordinary Marine, or let his Librarian take the wound on a 2+/no save.

So for all intents and purposes, it's probably going to be s3 until all of the other Marines are dead.

@Closet_Skeleton: Nicely done, sir. Seems like a much deserved victory from here.

I have to ask: What did you think of Draigo's performance in general? I've heard a lot of flak being sent his way, but have yet to see him actually make it onto the table in my area. I'm interested to hear a first hand account of how in/effective he is.

[lord_khaine]

I have recently been considering exchanging my Dark reapers for a unit striking scorpions (since the reaper exarch rarely survive past round 2), but then i had trouble figuring out if the best use of them would be to outflank them, or to put them into a wave serpent with Start engines?

[Teln]

As of yesterday, I am the proud owner of an Assault on Black Reach starter kit + Space Wolves codex. Yaaay! Yes I am aware of AoBR's shortcomings, but I'm on a very tight budget and the minis/core rules combo was too good to pass up.

A GW employee called Tim managed to arrange a 500-point game for me, with store models and a last-minute list. I lost, two objectives to one. My last objective was only held because his infantry simply didn't have enough time to make it halfway across the table.

I'm afraid I was too busy keeping track of everything to make a proper After-Action Report, but I learned quite a bit.

Things Teln Learned From His First Defeat:

1) Krak Missiles are rotten against Terminator armor, but great against Predator tanks. (Wish I'd figured this out before turn 4!)

2) Multi-Meltas are only anti-tank weapons at close range.

3) Range penalties don't exist--go ahead and charge the tank!

4) If bikes aren't moving or in assault, you're doing it wrong. That cover save while dashing is there for a reason.

5) Wound allocation is a fun minigame to play if you have +2 armor and an invulnerability save.

6) KILL THE TANK FIRST!

[Nameless Ghost]

Bikes are extreamly expensive ($$$) to get more than 4 or 5 boxes this year
The 2xPredator list was a nice idea, but i cant aford them... yet

If money is an issue, I'd suggest looking at the Ravenwing Battleforces for bikes. Providing you want the Speeder (albeit, the old one with few weapon options) and Attack bike), it saves a lot of money, specially if you can find somewhere that sells it discounted.

What other models do you have available to work with?

I lost, two objectives to one. My last objective was only held because his infantry simply didn't have enough time to make it halfway across the table.

Which tells you one fact: mobility is important. If you can't move your infantry across the table to take objectives, you'll often find yourself losing games or playing for a draw.

1) Krak Missiles are rotten against Terminator armor, but great against Predator tanks. (Wish I'd figured this out before turn 4!)
Indeed. Pay attention to the AP as well as the Strength.

2) Multi-Meltas are only anti-tank weapons at close range.
At long range they are more effective than those Krak Missiles due to the AP1. Don't forget that.

3) Range penalties don't exist--go ahead and charge the tank!
True - but hitting tanks in close combat is often difficult as you're often hitting only on 6s. You should be primarily intending to shoot tanks dead and then punch/grenade them as a last resort or if they're stunned/immobilised.

4) If bikes aren't moving or in assault, you're doing it wrong. That cover save while dashing is there for a reason.
Standard bikes should not be in assault. They'd much, much rather be shooting.

5) Wound allocation is a fun minigame to play if you have +2 armor and an invulnerability save.
Yes, yes it is.

6) KILL THE TANK FIRST!
Depends on the tank. You want to shoot at the priority targets first. Often that will include tanks, but not always.

[Timberwolf]

I have to ask: What did you think of Draigo's performance in general? I've heard a lot of flak being sent his way, but have yet to see him actually make it onto the table in my area. I'm interested to hear a first hand account of how in/effective he is.

I've used him once, in one of those GW games to prove how hard the stuff in the new codex is. Draigo was the last man standing. He...

"kut Ahriman in haf"

massacred 10 Khorne Berserkers and 5 possessed and a chaos spawn that jumped him at once before moving on to the 2 obliterators which he promptly killed and ate.

By this point, he was down to one wound and died when a Daemon Prince managed to get a hit through.

I was impressed, but he's a lot of points and I wouldn't field him if I played Grey Knights unless it was stupid points.

[Squark]

As of yesterday, I am the proud owner of an Assault on Black Reach starter kit + Space Wolves codex. Yaaay! Yes I am aware of AoBR's shortcomings, but I'm on a very tight budget and the minis/core rules combo was too good to pass up.

A GW employee called Tim managed to arrange a 500-point game for me, with store models and a last-minute list. I lost, two objectives to one. My last objective was only held because his infantry simply didn't have enough time to make it halfway across the table.

I'm afraid I was too busy keeping track of everything to make a proper After-Action Report, but I learned quite a bit.

Things Teln Learned From His First Defeat:

Hey. I'm pretty sure we all lost our first game. 'specially if you're playing a blackshirt (or do they pull their punches? Probably depends on the blackshirt)

Anyway, as far as recommendations for further acquisitions go;
1)Exacto-Knife+Modeling glue: I've heard bad things about GW's glue, but I don't know what to recommend. Although for plastics, I've heard good things about a certain type of plastic cement that actually melts the plastic, so the parts fuse together.
2)Space Wolf battleforce: For the cash-strapped, battleforces are usually the way to go, as I understand.
3)Paints: Depending on how soon you plan to pick up a battleforce, this may go before it. Just don't be the guy who never ends up painting his models. However, you might want to hold off on painting your AoBR marines until you get the battleforce, because then you can use excess bling from the battleforce to make your AoBR marines look more like Space Wolves.
4)Another HQ choice: The space wolves players around here can recommend a good one.

Oh yeah, and remember to find some more dice, preferably in several different colors. It's one thing to pick up your dice and roll them again for the same squad if you're playing a mass of orks. It's another to have to do that for a squad of space marines. So, at a minimum, 30 dice, a few in different colors (so you can roll special weapons and normal ones all at once) are a good idea.

Lastly, don't get discouraged if the game seems difficult to win. It's a tricky game to master. At least you started with a good army (I, meanwhile, started with Necrons, who are the oldest codex still in service).

[Klose_the_Sith]

1)Exacto-Knife+Modeling glue: I've heard bad things about GW's glue, but I don't know what to recommend. Although for plastics, I've heard good things about a certain type of plastic cement that actually melts the plastic, so the parts fuse together.

It's their super glue that's hopeless, the plastic glue is actually quite nice,

4)Another HQ choice: The space wolves players around here can recommend a good one.

Alternately, behead your captain and find an Empire Fantasy player you can steal the laurel wearing / leopard hooded Roman-esque General head off of. Instant Librarian (Rune Priest or whatever).

[Timberwolf]

Hey. I'm pretty sure we all lost our first game. 'specially if you're playing a blackshirt (or do they pull their punches? Probably depends on the blackshirt)

Lastly, don't get discouraged if the game seems difficult to win. It's a tricky game to master. At least you started with a good army (I, meanwhile, started with Necrons, who are the oldest codex still in service).

Indeed, my local blackshirt lost against me when I played him when I was considering making my grand return but I've seen him win too in introductory games so I guess he plays it as the dice fall.

I started playing again after a layoff that was more than half my life (and I'm 28 in 2 months...) at Christmas and I'm winning games fairly regularly now, enough to be considered someone worth beating and someone that people actually want to team up with for doubles games. The wins'll come, you just need to get comfortable with what you're doing and find what works best for you.

[Cheesegear]

The wins'll come, you just need to get comfortable with what you're doing and find what works best for you.

The wins come after your first few losses, right after you've just bought what your army has been missing.

As your army gets larger, or you've been playing for longer, you start - or should start - to think about what your army is missing. Usually it could be an extra Melta weapon or two. Buy some transports, or some long-ranged stuff that beginners (Space Marines and Orks for certain) don't usually get.

Unfortunately, the way it works, is if you're losing - like, continuously - and you don't have the funds to make your army larger/better, you will always be losing...Well, that, or you're just bad.

[Nameless Ghost]

My friend recently started working at GW part time, and with regards to intro games at least, he was told to 'cheat' to have the newbie win - the idea being that a person won't be interested in a game that they just got horribly beaten at and that they don't know the rules and it's not a real game so it doesn't really matter.

I guess that's a sales technique more than anything else. As for actual fist games. Yeah, I think most people lose the first real game they play. I know I lost for months in a row.
Though that may have been partly because nobody told me that starting with Daemons was a terrible idea when it came to learning how to play - and nobody could give me any real advice on how to build an army, or how to win a game.


The Space Wolves Pack is a great buy even if the battleforce is out of reach. It contains enough spare bits that you could probably convert the AoBR Marines into Space Wolves without much difficulty, while allowing you to build a squad of Blood Claws/Grey Hunters/Wolf Guard/whatever.


GW's plastic glue is very good at what it does, but their super glue is just super glue. You can get the stuff at any of the usual places, probably for cheaper, though you'll want to ensure what you buy isn't too thick, as it can make gluing small parts difficult.

I'd look elsewhere for modelling tools too. The ones GW sell aren't bad, but it's likely you can get something cheaper, or of superior quality, if you look.

There are a range of other miniature and modelling companies out there and some of their products are really quite nice, so it's worth the time it takes to do a bit of research before making the commitment to buy something.

[Cheesegear]

My friend recently started working at GW part time, and with regards to intro games at least, he was told to 'cheat' to have the newbie win - the idea being that a person won't be interested in a game that they just got horribly beaten at and that they don't know the rules and it's not a real game so it doesn't really matter.

Instead of cheating, my local G-Dub only plays with the Boyz, Nobz, Tactical Marines and Terminators. The Space Marines always win, easily. When the person wants to play Orks, the staffer moves his Marines forwards into Assault instead of RFing Bolters.

I'd look elsewhere for modelling tools too. The ones GW sell aren't bad, but it's likely you can get something cheaper, or of superior quality, if you look.

For Australians, I heartily recommend Bunnings. It's one of the few places I can find that sells Simple Green, and I got my pen-sized airbrush (instead of that unwieldy gun-like monstrosity that GW sells) for $20 not including propellant.

Also, $25 for clippers from GW? You're being robbed. The only tools I've bought from GW are the drill and files. If that helps anyone. And brushes.

[Craftworld]

For Australians, I heartily recommend Bunnings. It's one of the few places I can find that sells Simple Green, and I got my pen-sized airbrush (instead of that unwieldy gun-like monstrosity that GW sells) for $20 not including propellant.

Also, $25 for clippers from GW? You're being robbed. The only tools I've bought from GW are the drill and files. If that helps anyone. And brushes.

Yeah, with GW (and a lot of other brands outside of modeling) you pay more for the ability to use the name then you do to be able to actually use the item that you are purchasing.

[Incomp]

My friend recently started working at GW part time, and with regards to intro games at least, he was told to 'cheat' to have the newbie win - the idea being that a person won't be interested in a game that they just got horribly beaten at and that they don't know the rules and it's not a real game so it doesn't really matter.

I guess that's a sales technique more than anything else. As for actual fist games. Yeah, I think most people lose the first real game they play. I know I lost for months in a row.

Aargh. I see the logic, and valid or no, it disgusts me.

I'm an employee of my local hobby shop, and I frequently have to play games which are either introductory or against players who are young and new and thus very bad. I make a conscious effort to be polite and of course I play fair. I don't use cheesy or broken lists. But I do not pull my punches. I can't see the new player learning any other way but being shown how to play, what a "proper" army looks like, and what's wrong with their own army, and, well, I'm there to teach.

Tough love, they say.

[Nameless Ghost]

Aargh. I see the logic, and valid or no, it disgusts me.

I'm an employee of my local hobby shop, and I frequently have to play games which are either introductory or against players who are young and new and thus very bad. I make a conscious effort to be polite and of course I play fair. I don't use cheesy or broken lists. But I do not pull my punches. I can't see the new player learning any other way but being shown how to play, what a "proper" army looks like, and what's wrong with their own army, and, well, I'm there to teach.

Tough love, they say.

By 'intro games' (as that's what the staff seem to refer to them as), I mean the short 15-minute demo they give when someone walks into the store without any experience of miniature wargaming, rather than games against beginners who actually own an army.

In this case, I think it does make sense to 'pull their punches', to give the best possible experience to the person they're demonstrating to, similar to how a DM might fudge his die rolls so he doesn't kill off a person playing Dungeons and Dragons for the first time.

When it comes to real games rather than these demos, then, yes they play as normal with standard lists. Which tends to mean the beginners lose, sometimes rather quickly.

[Hawkfrost000]

the following is a rant and should not be taken seriously, i am letting of steam:

so i was on the GW website going through the DE section as they are my new FotM (or the year at the rate i paint) anyway i decided to check out the wracks and though "wow thats expensive for 5 models, i bet the have a lot of neat bitz, might be worth it to pick up a box for my wych cult" so i check out the page and what to i find out, there are no bitz, in fact i dont even think there are any variation in the models.

none

none

NONE

they are charging us $45 (CAD) for 5 models, thats more than 5 grey knights which is more like 10 models because of the amount of bonus parts they have.

and these are pitched as CORE. UNITS. for a haemounculus coven. grotesques are worse, there is only one model.

come to think of it Finecast (TM ) is making everything more expensive, god i hope they don't make kroxigors in finecast, it will break the bank. but seriously an 15% price increase for one model is ridiculous.

i thought they were switching to resin to make it cheaper!

RAGE

DM

[Zorg]

A review of a Finecast mini is up on Dakka.

[Turcano]

A review of a Finecast mini is up on Dakka.

This does not bode well.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Unfortunately, the way it works, is if you're losing - like, continuously - and you don't have the funds to make your army larger/better, you will always be losing...Well, that, or you're just bad.

Like me!

(There are few things that generate more of a sinking feeling than realising that a single mistake you made just turned an easy victory into a perplexing defeat )

Don't worry, new person. You'd prolly beat me anyway!

[Cheesegear]

i thought they were switching to resin to make it cheaper!

Who told you that?

This does not bode well.

It doesn't? What were you reading?

Weight is reduced. Pinning is no longer needed. Models also now have flex. Meaning they'll be less prone to snapping during transport (and drops) and easier to convert, as opposed to carving through metal for five minutes.

You don't need primer. While most people wont even care. This is kind of good, I guess.

The only problem I saw is that if you get a miscast (why would you? You can see what's in it; if there is a miscast, just don't buy it...), it might take some work to get things back into shape.

And the only other problem I have with the whole thing is the ridiculous pricing on some things. But, that's on GW's head, not on models'.

[Turcano]

The only problem I saw is that if you get a miscast (why would you? You can see what's in it; if there is a miscast, just don't buy it...), it might take some work to get things back into shape.

It depends on common a problem this is; if this particular model was a fluke then great, but if it's representative of the quality, then that's a bad sign. I'm also concerned about the fact that that model actually managed to get to the packaging phase. Don't they have inspectors?

[Cheesegear]

It depends on common a problem this is; if this particular model was a fluke then great, but if it's representative of the quality, then that's a bad sign. I'm also concerned about the fact that that model actually managed to get to the packaging phase. Don't they have inspectors?

It's almost like you've never opened a blister before? To me, some of those things are pretty much par for GW products. No, it isn't good. Not by a long shot. But, it's not anything different from the metal models.

With the [apparently not-resin], at least we wont have the various problems of shrinking metal as it cools out of the mold (you know how your metal models don't fit together? It's because they shrink).

Anyway, as Renegade Paladin said, who works in a factory already said; GW's QC standards are so through the floor they'd sink a ship.