Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[BoSheck]

The battleforce is the next item on the shopping list, after paints, glue and colored dice. I admit that Bloodclaws missing out on the Shooting phase is painful, but my first impression is that the additional charging attack makes up for it. It seems to me that a squad of them in a Drop Pod with Lukas the Trickster would make a good suicide unit. Long Fangs are on the shopping list, along with a rune priest.
Sorry about the double post, everyone.

That extra attack really doesn't make up for the WS3/BS3 and the need for a Wolf Guard/IC to actually shoot--Especially when they're competing with Grey Hunters. I won't lie, I sometimes daydream of 13 bloodclaws with the Lukas upgrade, Arjac hidden in the squad and a Wolf Priest rolled up into a Land Raider. But all-in-all thats something you'd save for huge point games, and even then...

3 Wolf Guard with combi-meltas in a drop pod is probably better suited to suicide missions.

As far as painting: I know this isn't the modeling thread, but I can't recommend washes enough, and remember to thin your paints!

[Zorg]

Both are true. It's carcinogenic when its dust is inhaled.

Forge World's isn't, they say as much on their site and I seriously doubt they'd put that claim out there if it wasn't true.

Many resins are toxic, but resin is a very broad term for a large number of very different compounds : greenstuff is a resin, two part epoxy glue is a resin, finecast is a resin, the stuff Forge World uses is a resin, and so are the four or five different (but similar) materials I've got other miniatures in.
It's much like how plastic can mean any one of a dozen different things, with unique properties and makeups.

Still, if it gives off a fine dust when you do anything to it (be it plastic, resin, wood or metal) you should wear breathing and eye protection regardless of toxicity.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Hmm... Grand Masters get Grand Strategy anyway

Draigo's cost over a normal grandmaster is a lot less than his cost over his wounds in Paladins and GMs don't get storm shields.

Draigo has a role in low points games and that's in smashing apart meta games that aren't prepared for him. After that he's not so great.

[Tarinaky]

In related news, the new 'Working With Resin' article up on the Forge World website, says:

Yeah, make of that what you will.


Take into account that a normal biker costs you half the points of an Attack bike with a Multi-melta. You also get the same number of Wounds vs shooting as you'd get with 2 bikers. And what works out as a free Multi-melta. Multi-melta!

If you take a full sized squad, you can Combat Squad the Attack bike into a different unit. If this is the plan, it won't matter what other special weapons you have.

The Heavy bolter tends to be an inferior choice because you can get them in much more suitable places elsewhere in an army, while a single Multi-melta has a reasonable chance of popping a light tank even at 24" and anything at 12" - which is where your bike squads want to be anyway.

I was looking at using them in a Bike themed White Scars list so my list is a little short on appropriately located Heavy Bolters. Full-size/10 man squads cost too much (Over 300 points for 1 troop choice >.<)

Attack Bikes, although 2 Wounds, have disadvantages for Wound allocation to protect your other models because they're only 1 model rather than 2.

[Nameless Ghost]

I was looking at using them in a Bike themed White Scars list so my list is a little short on appropriately located Heavy Bolters. Full-size/10 man squads cost too much (Over 300 points for 1 troop choice >.<)

Attack Bikes, although 2 Wounds, have disadvantages for Wound allocation to protect your other models because they're only 1 model rather than 2.

I go with 2 Meltaguns and a Multi-melta in my bike squads, and it comes to 285 points. If I was to take a basic 5-man squad with 2 Meltaguns, it'd come to 160 points. The bigger squad is more points-efficient for getting bikes on the table.

The Attack bike also has advantages in that you can use it as a bullet catcher for a single wound, ensuring that you don't lose a model to a stray shot. Even more useful if it's a single wound for an AP3+ weapon (though admittedly, many of those do cause Instant Death so you'd put it on a normal bike)

Remember that you do get Twin-linked Bolters on all your bikes. It may not seem like much, but it makes them much, much more effective at mowing down infantry than normal Marines, specially considering you can fire while moving around the table.

Also, wouldn't an Attack bike squadron be one of those sources of appropriately located Heavy bolters? I'd think you'd need to max out on them to get any significant effect and not just be crippled by any anti-tank fire coming your way, but it seems like it should work out, specially if you're outflanking and can hit said sources of anti-tank before they can really hurt you.

[Hawkfrost000]

To be fair, it probably is cheaper for us. After all, if they are making this switch because of growing metal prices, and still felt it was necessary to increase the prices on the Finecast models, the implication is that if they had not made the switch to Finecast, they would have been forced to increase the prices even more than they did now.

true, but with the 12% hst (used to be 6%) in Canada it still hurts a lot plus i looks like we are getting hit harder than britain.

DM

[PanNarrans]

I have recently been considering exchanging my Dark reapers for a unit striking scorpions (since the reaper exarch rarely survive past round 2), but then i had trouble figuring out if the best use of them would be to outflank them, or to put them into a wave serpent with Star engines?

I love outflanking Scorpions. It generally gets them into combat as soon as they get in from reserves, whereas I've never got the hang of charging things from a Serpent.

Giving the Exarch a biting blade is fun if you're outflanking, since then he can hit any stationary tanks in the back line with S8 attacks. This is unreliable against moving vehicles, though, since you need enough attacks to hit to get the strength boost.

I'm told the Serpent can outflank with them; I've never tried it, but it sounds like it could open up some interesting tactics.

I do run double Autarch lists frequently, so things come in from reserves on 2+. If you're using Seer Robin, outflanking might not be so attractive.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Also, wouldn't an Attack bike squadron be one of those sources of appropriately located Heavy bolters?

Not really. Heavy bolters have the same problem everywhere you put them. Most things that can take them can take anti-tank or AP2 weapons instead and those are just more useful.

Heavy Bolter Attack bike squadrons are really good. They can even kill tanks by targeting rear armour. But not really worth it and I never have room for mine in a list (I only have the models because they were in an ebay lot with some multimelta ones I use a lot more).

[Arcanoi]

Not really. Heavy bolters have the same problem everywhere you put them. Most things that can take them can take anti-tank or AP2 weapons instead and those are just more useful.

Heavy Bolter Attack bike squadrons are really good. They can even kill tanks by targeting rear armour. But not really worth it and I never have room for mine in a list (I only have the models because they were in an ebay lot with some multimelta ones I use a lot more).

Emperor-be-damned Space Marines and their useful FA slots...

[Tarinaky]

Trouble with attack bike squads is multi-wound matters for nought against S8 weapons like Krak Missiles and Meltaguns and they don't have anywhere to allocate spare wounds. Makes them inferior to a Bike Squad imo.

[lord_khaine]

I love outflanking Scorpions. It generally gets them into combat as soon as they get in from reserves, whereas I've never got the hang of charging things from a Serpent.

Giving the Exarch a biting blade is fun if you're outflanking, since then he can hit any stationary tanks in the back line with S8 attacks. This is unreliable against moving vehicles, though, since you need enough attacks to hit to get the strength boost.

I'm told the Serpent can outflank with them; I've never tried it, but it sounds like it could open up some interesting tactics.

I do run double Autarch lists frequently, so things come in from reserves on 2+. If you're using Seer Robin, outflanking might not be so attractive.

Thanks for the feedback, must say i personaly was considering getting the Exarch a power fist, but of course that would give the unit trouble handling vehicles.

Another thing i was considering is to take Yriel along, and either put him with the Scorpions or the harlequins.

But does anyone have any experience using him, is he worth the cost?

[Nameless Ghost]

Not really. Heavy bolters have the same problem everywhere you put them. Most things that can take them can take anti-tank or AP2 weapons instead and those are just more useful.

Heavy Bolter Attack bike squadrons are really good. They can even kill tanks by targeting rear armour. But not really worth it and I never have room for mine in a list (I only have the models because they were in an ebay lot with some multimelta ones I use a lot more).

I was primarily thinking Land Speeder Typhoons and Predators. The Attack bikes were a consideration only because he wants an all-bike army.

Heavy bolters aren't bad, but they're not really effective unless you have lots of them hitting a target. If you're firing a bunch of Rapid-fire bolters at something, adding a Heavy bolter doesn't make a significant difference.

Whereas firing 3 Heavy bolters at a target may actually be worthwhile, and firing 9 of them will hurt almost any infantry target.

You could take Multi-meltas instead, but the points add up considerably if you were to max out on them and it's possible to get triple-melta in the Troops slot anyway.

You can't get an anti-infantry threat that operates from 36" away in the Troops slot. Though perhaps it isn't necessary and more scoring bikes is a better option.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Trouble with attack bike squads is multi-wound matters for nought against S8 weapons like Krak Missiles and Meltaguns and they don't have anywhere to allocate spare wounds. Makes them inferior to a Bike Squad imo.

Never really seems to be a problem for me. Just put things in your army that need those S8 hits to kill more or use your attack bikes to distract your enemy from those.

If there's proper line of sight blocking terrain like their should be then attack bikes are pretty easy to hide for a turn before you need them after turbobooting.

If I want attack bikes i'd rather buy three attack bikes than one bike and 3 spare wounds for it. Sometimes I want bike squads of course but that's when I take them, not when I want my attack bikes to die.

If they die they die. Units do that in this game.

[Renegade Paladin]

Emperor-be-damned Space Marines and their useful FA slots...

Nine Hellhounds.

One of these days I may have enough models to actually do that. And there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Nameless Ghost]

Nine Hellhounds.

One of these days I may have enough models to actually do that. And there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Nine? Pfft.
Tau can field fifteen Piranhas.

[Tarinaky]

It's not, strictly, an all bike army as it makes heavy use of Landspeeders (they're almost bikes right?) and Predators (Lascannons, no sponsons) since they're still fairly mobile and can provide AT fire from turn one.

[Cheesegear]

Another thing i was considering is to take Yriel along, and either put him with the Scorpions or the harlequins.

I wouldn't. The Scorpions lose the ability to Infiltrate (and Outflank) and Yriel+Harlequins ends up being a point sink. Especially since you can't give the Harlequins a Wave Serpent. Although you could use a Falcon...If you want to use a Falcon.

Yriel goes in Banshees if you're using them. If not, Dire Avengers.

[Wraith]

But does anyone have any experience using him, is he worth the cost?

Striking Scorpion Exarchs are always a good choice. I usually run mine with a Power Fist, and even at just s6 he's never yet managed to disappoint (excluding a few bad days when I Outflanks them the wrong place and the unit is entirely wiped out before they achieve anything, but that's hardly his fault....) but a Biting Blade is a good alternative if you're not sure as to what you're going to be fighting.

As for Yriel...

Pros: One of the best Invulnerable Saves in the Codex, and a s9 Power Weapon scares most things in the game. Even Monolith should pause for thought before floating around near a guy with 4 (or 5) s9 attacks.

Cons: He's T3 and not an Eternal Warrior, so in effect you have to pay a stealth tax on a squad to escort him around safely. Then he has 3 special abilities; one of which tries to kill him at the end of the game, and another which can potentially wipe out the friendly squad that you just paid for in order to look after him.
He also costs the same as the Avatar of Khaine, who quite frankly does everything that Yriel does (apart from ride in a Wave Serpent) and generally does it better.

In short, Jain Zar is better with Banshees, Asurmen is better with Dire Avengers, and Yriel is probably best left at home unless you have a Deep Strike/Outflank-themed army and are desperate to double up the Master Strategist bonus' with an Autarch.

...At least he's better than Baharroth.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Nine? Pfft.
Tau can field fifteen Piranhas.

Not to be a bastard but technically a Guard army can field 41 chimeras, 9 hellhounds and 9 Russes on one detatchment chart.

I don't even want to think of the points and $ cost for it. But I'm getting there

I wish you could field one more Chimera cause then you would achive the meaning of life...

[Cheesegear]

Yriel is probably best left at home unless you have a Deep Strike/Outflank-themed army and are desperate to double up the Master Strategist bonus' with an Autarch.

Which you can do anyway by simply doubling up on Autarchs.

[Wraith]

Which you can do anyway by simply doubling up on Autarchs.

Hence, 'desperate'.

[profitofrage]

Hey people. I got a game im starting soon, its themed ^_^ going up against a 1500 point Iron hands army with a 2500 point Tyranid army, they get the heavily fortified center part of the map while I get ALL edges for deployment. Yes we already know the SM is definably going to lose but in any case I was building the list and decided it looked like great fun...what is the threads thoughts on it though?

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Hive Tyrant heavy venom cannon and devourer with brainleech worms Toxic miasma and Hive commander -

310
Elite
Zoanthrope Bood 2 - 120
Hive Guard 3 - 150
Hive Guard 3 - 150

Troop
Tervigon - 160
Termigaunt Brood 30 - 150
Tervigon - 160
Termigaunt Brood 30 - 150
Hormagaunt brood 30 - 180
Hormagaunt brood 30 - 180

Fast
Tyranid Shrike 6 - 210
Gargoyle brood 30 - 180
Gargoyle brood 30 - 180

Heavy
Trygon Prime 240

Spare 40 points - this was left for psychic powers on the Tervigons...not sure which ones to pick though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Elites choices look pretty boring. Competative in a mech environment but boring. If you're playing a friendly scenario game why not pick a fun elites choice like deathleaper or venomthropes?

[profitofrage]

The Elites choices look pretty boring. Competative in a mech environment but boring. If you're playing a friendly scenario game why not pick a fun elites choice like deathleaper or venomthropes?

Didnt have any real Anti vehicle Units so i figured the Hive guard could act as a light version of those..while still being shooty enough to do damage elsewhere.
I actually HAD venomthropes in there as my elite choices, my heavy selection being to Tyranofex's. The plan was to have the Tyrant lead two of them with the venomthropes providing cover basically INTO the place :P blasting buildings apart e.t.c
However Vassal 40k does not have Tyranofex units...and for some odd reason If I cant specifically see it..I die a little inside.
Instead Im hoping the Trigon Prime will furfill that dread inducing role :P Popping up with Hormagaunts at the absolute worst time on the only undefended side.
I.e the plan was
Termagaunt swarm moving up one side. Flyers from another. Tyran with the Guards and Zoanthrope (or venom thrope replacement) from another...and right when he thinks theres that ONE avenue of escape...BAMB comes the Prime :P with many tiny buddies.

[Nameless Ghost]

The Elites selection may be 'boring' and competitive, but most people would say the HQ and Heavy slots weren't.

Tervigons want the power what gives Feel no Pain (Catalyst?). Dealing with 30 Gaunts in cover can be a pain, but it isn't that difficult, but dealing with 30 Gaunts with cover and Feel no Pain... yeah, that's significantly more tricky. It can also be cast on the Monstrous Creatures to give them a defence against AP3 weaponry.

[Cheesegear]

So, I know I can safely say that the internet is definitely the vocal minority.

Here in Australia, GW have copped a lot of flak for a number of reasons. Large amounts of people declaring their quitting-ness of the hobby, etc. However, I go into my store today to pick up some Finecast (Protip; Says right on the box that it's only resin, although I couldn't find any warning signs as per the ForgeWorld resin, only that bits are sharp, kids can choke and 12 years and up, etc.)...

Only to find out that yesterday - when they were released - pretty much everything was sold out. Fantastic. So, for all the raging on the internet...GW is barely phased.

[Tarinaky]

So, I know I can safely say that the internet is definitely the vocal minority.

Here in Australia, GW have copped a lot of flak for a number of reasons. Large amounts of people declaring their quitting-ness of the hobby, etc. However, I go into my store today to pick up some Finecast (Protip; Says right on the box that it's only resin, although I couldn't find any warning signs as per the ForgeWorld resin, only that bits are sharp, kids can choke and 12 years and up, etc.)...

Only to find out that yesterday - when they were released - pretty much everything was sold out. Fantastic. So, for all the raging on the internet...GW is barely phased.

In fairness I dunno how much supply they had: with the old figures they probably had a lot of stored product whereas having changed to a new product - and having recalled all the previous product prior...

That said, internet rage has the power to topple Arabic giants but here in the western world that doesn't seem to be the case :P

[profitofrage]

So, I know I can safely say that the internet is definitely the vocal minority.

Here in Australia, GW have copped a lot of flak for a number of reasons. Large amounts of people declaring their quitting-ness of the hobby, etc. However, I go into my store today to pick up some Finecast (Protip; Says right on the box that it's only resin, although I couldn't find any warning signs as per the ForgeWorld resin, only that bits are sharp, kids can choke and 12 years and up, etc.)...

Only to find out that yesterday - when they were released - pretty much everything was sold out. Fantastic. So, for all the raging on the internet...GW is barely phased.

people have been raging about what there making minitures out of?
Because they thought its cancer inducing?
Why arnt people complainging more about the ...you know...Huge overpricing of there wares.
Seriously you look at the other miniture ranges...all of similar quality..and there half if not 1/3 of the price. GW has NO reason to keep there plastic minitures the prices they keep them. Hell thats why I stopped supporting GW years and years ago and got Vassal.

[Klose_the_Sith]

The angry people on WargamerAU even pointed that out, actually

The internet will rage over the terms, but GW will keep plodding on irrespective. The blogosphere make people *want* 40k more because it's full of awesome 40k stuff - how was a suggested boycott ever going to work?

Incidentally, I plan on ordering three razorbacks an ironclad and a drop pod just before the embargo sets in

EDIT:

people have been raging about what there making minitures out of?
Because they thought its cancer inducing?
Why arnt people complainging more about the ...you know...Huge overpricing of there wares.
Seriously you look at the other miniture ranges...all of similar quality..and there half if not 1/3 of the price. GW has NO reason to keep there plastic minitures the prices they keep them. Hell thats why I stopped supporting GW years and years ago and got Vassal.

This is about the prices, actually.

GW have embargo'd us colonials from ordering at EU prices so that we can enjoy 40% markup ftw. It's kinda ridiculous, but eh.

If I was looking for a quality:price ratio I'd just buy Perry miniatures. They look better then half the GW casts and are better value for money from my LGS.

(Actually I do buy Perry Miniatures, but I also buy GW every now and again )

[Timberwolf]

Pretty much, I picked up a couple of finecast things today and the store was full of the usual suspects. The models are lovely btw, but I will lament the sense of weight you get when moving a metal HQ choice about. The finecast stuff's so light. I do like the fact that it's now far more easy to get rid of symbols and the like now, you can just lightly cut and off they come.

Certainly locally, there's been no rage (but the local blackshirt's a pretty popular figure and is one of the good ones) and it's just been "GW's switching to resin eh ? Well, hopefully the'll do Sisters which means I'll actually be able to carry my army around without killing my arm" (pretty much exactly what one person said)