LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[WarKitty]

Different question:

How do you deal with the people that truly seem to think the best thing for you is for you to change? I mean, I understand about hatred and bigotry. If someone's just being mean or hateful, I have no problems telling them to stick their opinion up the same place they have their head. It's not the people that are vicious or hateful that I'm worried about. It's the people that as far as I can tell genuinely care about me. People that in the past have supported me, that I know I could in general go to for support, but are firmly convinced that my gender and orientation are problems in my life that need fixing. They're not bad or evil people. They're people that are ordinarily very kind and loving and caring. It's just that...they see it as some sort of bad habit or addiction that I've fallen into.

[rayne_dragon]

Politely ask them not to try to change who you are?

[WarKitty]

Politely ask them not to try to change who you are?

They won't understand. It's not the kind of thing that can be part of who you are for them. I'm not kidding when I said they see it as some sort of addiction - that's not 100% accurate, but it's the general idea. They see it as a desire for something that is innately harmful and thus needs to be resisted.

[Coidzor]

If the environment can't be changed, then the only thing that one has much direct influence over...ish... would be our internal mono/dialogue and approach to things.

Though that rather hinges on depression from non-biochemical sources in order to really have an effect. It's rather tempting to apply the reasoning a bit too ubiquitously at times though, I imagine.

For instance, if it causes one distress that the explanations given by transsexuals for their existence/minds tells you something about yourself you know not to be true, it is considered a matter within your power to instead accept alternate possibilities, like poor wording or perspective bias, such that their words are taken with the grain of salt necessary to know it's about them anyway & nothing really to do with the listener.

Seeking to change the fundamental nature of the beast, on the other hand, is generally doomed to frustration and failure.

[WarKitty]

If the environment can't be changed, then the only thing that one has much direct influence over...ish... would be our internal mono/dialogue and approach to things.

Though that rather hinges on depression from non-biochemical sources in order to really have an effect. It's rather tempting to apply the reasoning a bit too ubiquitously at times though, I imagine.

For instance, if it causes one distress that the explanations given by transsexuals for their existence/minds tells you something about yourself you know not to be true, it is considered a matter within your power to instead accept alternate possibilities, like poor wording or perspective bias, such that their words are taken with the grain of salt necessary to know it's about them anyway & nothing really to do with the listener.

Seeking to change the fundamental nature of the beast, on the other hand, is generally doomed to frustration and failure.

True. Though I would say that there's two different issues here.

With transsexualism, I think the real question I'd have for people is "How do we reconcile what I know about myself and what you know about yourself in a manner that does not deny either of us our experiences?" And once everyone's calmed down and not making assumptions about what the other is saying, it's generally a question we can sit down and work out. Because for both of us the heart of our position is "this is my experience," not "this is your experience."

The people to whom I was referring... part of the issue is that they have a firm belief in "this is your experience." Under their belief system my experiences cannot be valid, and can only be the product of mistaken beliefs.

[golentan]

Frankly, I think you have to agree to disagree. If they are well intentioned but not capable of real compromise or understanding, and you make clear that you will not compromise yourself, you can draw a little line that says "off limits topic" around the situation and get along well with someone in my experience. As long as you both are reasonable people (within limits, since obviously reason failed to sway one of you), this can be fine.

Unfortunately, it does tend to long term crimp any potential relationship until the interaction becomes vestigial and superficial, which is... unpleasant if it's a relationship that was important to you before (like, say, family). But if the alternative is fighting like angry raccoons every time you cross paths...

[Cerlis]

I think what you need is the most powerful question in human existance.

"Why?"

I cant guess their answers (or i could, but that might not be them) but from what i've seen most fallacious opinions fall appart when you keep asking why.

What you are doing is wrong and a bad addictive habit.
Why
Because it is!
Why
Because its not how things are suppose to be.
Why
Because its not what God wants/Because it goes against nature/because its perverse
Why is it what God wants/why does it go against nature/why is it perverse?

anything beyond that can be directly linked to something else. Whether its the fact that Even the most devout can claim to read gods mind, or getting people to realize that an exception in nature is still a part of nature, or showing how "Normal" people can be more perverse and "freaks" can be well more caring.

I think if you really care about what these people think and want them to understand, then yall need to sit down and make some terms before hand. About how yall are all adults (and even with a 12 year old i'd say this, at that age you start making decisions that could end up with you dead, and so your opinion matters), and yall need to all listen to each other without getting angry. and the most important thing is ALL parties involved AGREEING that if things start to heat up that yall call it a day on the subject and start again later. But from what little i know the main reason why these things dont get resolved is because people arent willing to discuss WHY they feel a certian way, and get to caught up in blaming people or throwing away each others opinions.

Yall are all adults, and you and expessially they , need to learn how to act like them (that was a little pointed, but it was pointed at them, i tire of adults that act like teenagers)



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On a different note, i thought of making a different topic but didnt want to spam and this is THE gay topic so figure this was the best chance of getting an answer.

a while back i was at a bar that has a TV screen playing music viceos. alot of stereotypical gay music (beyonce, Gaga, ect) but also some music and vids by LGBT artists.

In this one video was this studly, muscular bear type man doing some song. most of the scenes had him in a leotard going for a sexy super hero look. He was singing (not lip sinking some other song) so i think hes a professional. Now i'll admit i'm attracted to the guy, but the main reason is he inspired me, since you rarely ever see a Male singer who acts both Masculine and sexually at the same time (you have plenty of gay or straight pretty boy singers, some Brad-pitish studs, and plenty of Drag queens and this and that)

I was hoping someone would be familiar with the artist, if it rings a bell, or be able to give a lead on a site that tracks many of these artists. Google and youtube are not my friend and have been no help

[Lissou]

Some people have their opinions that completely dismiss your own and your experience, etc. I can't tell you how to deal with them, I just wish I knew. When I tell my father I'm not asking for his advice, he says I don't have to follow it but it's unreasonable for me to expect me not to give his opinion if he feels like it.
He doesn't seem to realise that just stating it is a form of rejection and dismissal. He says it's his opinion and it doesn't mean mine isn't valid.

Honestly, once he told me something along the line of "you know, when I said that stuff you were doing was stupid and a mistake, that wasn't a judgment. You still do whatever you want. It was just my opinion."

With people like that, I find the best thing to do is simply not talk to them.

[Frozen_Feet]

Different question:

How do you deal with the people that truly seem to think the best thing for you is for you to change?

Oh boy.

First of all: is there any chance they could be right?

If not, then the only thing to say to them is "sorry, but you are wrong, and here's why:".

This is because the answer is situational. And it's good to remember that people don't always know what's best for them themselves, and this most likely applies to yourself too.

If there's no common ground to be found, then shut up, and if they try to push the issue, tell them to shut up as well.

I think what you need is the most powerful question in human existance.

"Why?"

... it's also the stupidest question beyond a certain point. You can always ask "why?" once more after the underlying logic has been explained and laid out to the root, after which the question can no longer be answered, since all worldviews necessarily contain some measure of "just because".

[Yora]

The only real statistical abberation I can think of is an apparently larger amount of...can't think of a label for this. Women who like watching gay dudes.

The term is "fag hag".

[Serpentine]

I believe he's referring to yuri, actually... Or is it yaoi? You know what I mean.

[Yora]

Yaoi.

In that case "Yaoi fangirls" is the most common name I encountered.

[Frozen_Feet]

I think the main distinction between fag hags and yaio fans is that the former see gay men as good friends and emotional support, while the latter get their kicks from two hot men getting it on.

Provided there is a distinction in the real world, of course. XD

[Ashen Lilies]

As fine and wholesome a form of entertainment as any.

I wonder what the male equivalent of a fag hag would be... dyke tyke?

[Serpentine]

I have heard it before, and it's dyke something...

[DeadManSleeping]

The internet cites multiple terms, including the one KK mentioned. I can't find any sort of consensus.

[golentan]

The two (*** hag and yaoi fangirl) are not even remotely incompatible, and I tend to view hagdom as a somewhat unfavorable commentary on a specific kind of emotional crutch.

Not to say it's automatic. But most of the hags I've met have wanted something other than friendship from gay guys. Specifically, a sexually non-threatening replacement for a failed actual relationship. Usually with the assumption of "gay powers."

[Asta Kask]

I think the main distinction between fag hags and yaio fans is that the former see gay men as good friends and emotional support, while the latter get their kicks from two hot men getting it on.

Provided there is a distinction in the real world, of course. XD

They're not exactly exclusive categories...

[DeadManSleeping]

Not to say it's automatic. But most of the hags I've met have wanted something other than friendship from gay guys. Specifically, a sexually non-threatening replacement for a failed actual relationship. Usually with the assumption of "gay powers."

Relevant and awesome

[golentan]

Relevant and awesome

Twelve winds, they're like popcorn! I can't watch just one...

[Coidzor]

The two (*** hag and yaoi fangirl) are not even remotely incompatible, and I tend to view hagdom as a somewhat unfavorable commentary on a specific kind of emotional crutch.

Not to say it's automatic. But most of the hags I've met have wanted something other than friendship from gay guys. Specifically, a sexually non-threatening replacement for a failed actual relationship. Usually with the assumption of "gay powers."

I mostly just feel a mixture of awkward and bad for them, as I've invariably found the ones I've gotten to know to have issues with being emotionally honest with themselves.

And to have severe issues with intimacy, such that any non-gay male that started to get close to them (platonically, even) would cause them to freak out & start to push them away.

The one that was incapable of being physically attracted to any man who was not gay was just bizarre though, and I really, really hope some kind of far-flung outlier.

Hopefully those who survive to full adulthood mature & are healthier or maybe I just had a string of statistically anomalous encounters. They definitely were some of the odder characters of my earlyish years though.

When I tell my father I'm not asking for his advice, he says I don't have to follow it but it's unreasonable for me to expect me not to give his opinion if he feels like it.
He doesn't seem to realise that just stating it is a form of rejection and dismissal. He says it's his opinion and it doesn't mean mine isn't valid.

Well, yes, because it is unreasonable of you to expect he not do so. Experience has shown, time and time again that he's going to give it regardless of your feelings on the matter if he can.

Parents are weird like that. And I suspect, but don't have the actual data, that they're the primary source of trauma for developing human larva.

[turkishproverb]

Parents are weird like that. And I suspect, but don't have the actual data, that they're the primary source of trauma for developing human larva.

I'd probably have to agree with this.

[Cerlis]

... it's also the stupidest question beyond a certain point. You can always ask "why?" once more after the underlying logic has been explained and laid out to the root, after which the question can no longer be answered, since all worldviews necessarily contain some measure of "just because".

maybe when you reach a certian point yes, but most people dont reach that certian point.

Because everytime i hear "just because" , what they arent saying or even realizing themselves is they are actually saying "Just because thats what i think and i dont want to change my mind or get anywhere near the notion i may be wrong cus i'm clinging onto my personal world view cus thats the only way i have to deal with life "

there are people who cant explain why they feel a certian way about something philosophical, but i think in this particular instance its usually cus they dont choose to look at their own motivations.

[Yora]

The one that was incapable of being physically attracted to any man who was not gay was just bizarre though, and I really, really hope some kind of far-flung outlier.

That sounds like a serious disorder that I would assume to be actually unrelated to sexual attraction.
Desiring sexual contact and a relationship, but freaking out when it threatens to become possible. Seeking out the company of gay men would allow for the comfrt zone to be a bit larger, as you can trick your consciousness longer that you're not looking for a relationship. I assume most of such people aren't attracted to women either, so their own sexual attractions probably don't play such a big part. Sounds more like a fear of relationships in general, while simultaneously desiring one.

Yoi fangirls are a very interesting case. Yaoi manga are almost exclusively made by women and targeted at female readers. You have to keep in mind that feminine features are an old traditional ideal of beauty in men, but it's still interesting that yaoi fangirls apparently are a lot into reading about male gey sex, but are generally not at all interested in masculinity.
In some cases that could be regarded as a way to show interest in male sexuality while staying well clear of the idea of girls having sexual contact with boys and men. It's fascinating, but to younger or insecure readers (and many of the fangirls are "younger"), actual men might be a bit threatening.
Would be the same thing, at the same time desiring something, but also being afraid of it.
Not that I'm saying that it's the primary reason yaoi stuff exists, but I'd guess it plays a considerable part in it's popularity. Yuri is a totally different thing, since all boys like lesbians.

I just had a seminar last semester lead by a middle school teacher who does German classes, and he says girls love Twilight because it's full of sex without any sex actually happening. They are imensely interested in the subject, but actual sex is totally gross. In twilight, you have all the stuff about relationships, bad boys, breakups, and the whole drama, while always staying on the safe side.

[Tyndmyr]

I just had a seminar last semester lead by a middle school teacher who does German classes, and he says girls love Twilight because it's full of sex without any sex actually happening. They are imensely interested in the subject, but actual sex is totally gross. In twilight, you have all the stuff about relationships, bad boys, breakups, and the whole drama, while always staying on the safe side.

I'm gonna guess that he didn't read the third book, then.

[rayne_dragon]

Parents are weird like that. And I suspect, but don't have the actual data, that they're the primary source of trauma for developing human larva.

I'm pretty sure that there's plenty of such data available.

The whole process of birth itself seems incredably traumatic for all involved, but that might have something to do with the common postition for childbirth being pretty close to being the worst position possible.

[Yora]

I'm gonna guess that he didn't read the third book, then.

Well, I didn't, so take that with a grain of salt.

But maybe he knows more about what else German teens are reading and watching than we do.

(Edit: Though some quick research seems to support that claim.)

[golentan]

Well, I didn't, so take that with a grain of salt.

But maybe he knows more about what else German teens are reading and watching than we do.

Suffice to say the third book has sex. A fair amount of it too. And a pregnancy drawn from the blackest, most nightmarish corners of the human mind. A pregnancy that haunts my dreams and makes me nervous around any woman showing a baby bump.

Okay, it's not *quite* as bad as all that. But it's scarier than any of the fear tactics that were used in my sex ed class.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, I didn't, so take that with a grain of salt.

But maybe he knows more about what else German teens are reading and watching than we do.

(Edit: Though some quick research seems to support that claim.)

It's a reasonable conclusion if you've read the first book or two, or perhaps seen just the first movie...I'm honestly a teensy bit curious to see how movie #3 is going to handle the events of the third book. I mean, unless you carve out literally the entire plot, it's going to be sticky at best.

That said, any good romance plot is going to have a fair amount of anticipatory dialog before getting down to business. You pretty much have to, really. It's what the genre is all about.

[rayne_dragon]

Suffice to say the third book has sex. A fair amount of it too. And a pregnancy drawn from the blackest, most nightmarish corners of the human mind. A pregnancy that haunts my dreams and makes me nervous around any woman showing a baby bump.

Okay, it's not *quite* as bad as all that. But it's scarier than any of the fear tactics that were used in my sex ed class.

Worse than the one in Dawn(?*) of the Dead?

* - I think it was Dawn of the Dead, but there's been so many "of the Dead" things I worry about confusing them. They should have just called it Mall of the Dead.