LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[bluewind95]

That's a pretty scary experience though, choking.

And I'm glad you're okay, Bluewind! That sounds scary..

Yes, yes it is. I didn't have time to think very much, but the fact that even a day later I ocassionally gave big gasps for breath I think would say that it's a very stressful thing. I have a propensity for choking, but this is the first time I nearly black out from it.

More on topic... I don't think anyone should be pressured into a relationship. If you don't feel ready or up to it, I don't think you should do it.

[Danne]

I don't know if this is the right or wrong place to bring this up, but I wanted to see if I could get some people's experience here. I'm spoilering in it in case this is the wrong place, and if it is, I apologize.

Spoiler

Show

I have a really good friend, and we've been friends for over 10 years. We often give each other a hard time, it's just what we do. So, for a while, he's been bugging me to go out with a certain nice girl from school. It's gotten a bit irritating, and so I kinda made it worse when I got tired of him pestering me, and just snapped and said I would. The issue is that I'm kinda not out to anyone I know IRL, and am just not really interested in most women, am busy, and don't want to waste time in faking a relationship, which I figure would probably damage to my friendship with said girl, when I am drowning in schoolwork. It's kinda dumb, but I have no idea what to do. The only thing I can think of is coming out, but even if I had the guts to do it, it would add complication to a time when I'm already going to be dealing with a lot, and I don't feel ready to. If anyone has any ideas, or would point me to the right place if this isn't, it would be much appreciated.

Also keep in mind that starting a relationship with a girl you're not really interested in is REALLY unfair and cruel to her. It sounds like you're pretty adamant about not doing that, but don't give in just because your "friend" (who should listen to you if he's a real friend) keeps pestering you about it!

[WarKitty]

Random question: What exactly do you call a relationship between two people who don't identify with gender?

[Lissou]

Random question: What exactly do you call a relationship between two people who don't identify with gender?

A relationship. :P

[DeadManSleeping]

A relationship.

Why, what were you going to call it?

[WarKitty]

Heh.

In all seriousness...is it odd that I don't want to be seen as straight? Despite personal identification, I know the potential relationship will be perceived as a "normal" heterosexual relationship. And I'm having a hard time reconciling myself to that. Especially within the LGBT community - I present and live most of the time as a cis/het woman, and I feel bad being part of a community around discrimination when so much of my life plays out as so normal.

[Nix Nihila]

Don't feel bad about it. Just because you don't get a lot of flak for being LGBT, whether it's because you're surrounded by understanding people, or because people don't know that you're LGBT, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be a part of the community. I think it's rather nice when people who aren't discriminated against for a certain thing take a stand for other people who ARE discriminated against for that thing.

[WarKitty]

Don't feel bad about it. Just because you don't get a lot of flak for being LGBT, whether it's because you're surrounded by understanding people, or because people don't know that you're LGBT, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be a part of the community. I think it's rather nice when people who aren't discriminated against for a certain thing take a stand for other people who ARE discriminated against for that thing.

I don't think it's that so much as...having a hard time holding on to my identity, if that makes sense? Like, I identify as a genderqueer pansexual, but I present and interact with society as a heterosexual woman. It's a little hard to explain...I kind of end up feeling deceptive, but that's not quite the right term. Like I'd be more comfortable being openly seen as queer, because I don't want to be seen as part of "normal" society. But I don't want to have to go around saying I'm queer either, because that's just sorta dumb.

[Nix Nihila]

Ah, I think I get what you mean, you don't want to be discriminated against, but you also want to be able to present as genderqueer and pansexual (correct me if I'm totally misinterpreting you).

I think most people in the LGBT community have that issue on some level. I certainly did, and still do to some extent.

[WarKitty]

Ah, I think I get what you mean, you don't want to be discriminated against, but you also want to be able to present as genderqueer and pansexual (correct me if I'm totally misinterpreting you).

I think most people in the LGBT community have that issue on some level. I certainly did, and still do to some extent.

Yeah that's it. I want to be able to present as who I am, but I don't want to have to actively say "I'm queer" or "I'm pan" because I feel like it's just weird and not that relevant.

[Yora]

Hehehe... I'm in the very same boat with you.

I knew I was pansexual since I was 20 and very open about it with my friends, but it never seemed appropriate to come out to my parents. Because unless I would have wanted to tell them I am in a homosexual relationship, it would have felt completely inappropriate to suddenly start a discussion about my sexuality, even though I knew they wouldn't have any reservations about it. I didn't tell my father until I wanted to talk to him about my feelings of depression probably being related to my androgynity (he's a psychologist), and the detail that I'm also pansexual was probably important. And of course he was as understanding as I knew he would be.
Out in public, it is even worse. I don't want people to see me as a heterosexual man. That's not what I am, and being seen as such feels wrong. But how do you make people notice it, without pushing your sexuality in their face? It certainly is not an individual problem, I imagine lots of people like us feel that way.
For me, I've been attempting to make my appearance more feminine to get a more androgynous look. But on the one side, I don't want to appear like a freaky dude in a woman costume, but I don't want to pass as a woman either.
Sufficient to say, I didn't get much further than wearing my hair long and trying to buy more form fitting clothes. (Since I'm rather skinny, I think the lack of either directly masculine or feminine traits makes that a useful approach.)

I think in some way, we are discriminated. Even though people are not hostile toward us (at least War Kitty and me), we are forced to pass as something else, because society has no place for us. Either we have to pass, or we can stand out only as freaks. This is not discrimination on an individual basis, but more on a level of society.

Random question: What exactly do you call a relationship between two people who don't identify with gender?

A perfect match.
Though I usually avoid talking about my preferences, I think I'm drawn to other pansexuals, androgynes, and transgender people the most. A straight woman could be completely happy in a relationship with me (and maybe so could I), but I really would prefer someone who sees the world like I do.

[Coidzor]

Random question: What exactly do you call a relationship between two people who don't identify with gender?

...What do you call a relationship between two decidedly manly gay men? Or a man and a woman?

I'm pretty sure we've got "in a relationship," "engaged," and "married," for the English language. The latter two are more about visitation rights, property, and inheritance than anything intrinsic to the relationship in most cases anyway what with them being optional in many developed nations.

In all seriousness...is it odd that I don't want to be seen as straight?

If you're a woman and you're boinking (or presenting a face such that others will naturally presume such)a man of your own free will, yeah by most definitions of odd that I can recall. So what?

Hell, there are definitions that put any non-standard gender identity schema as odd for that matter.

Especially within the LGBT community - I present and live most of the time as a cis/het woman, and I feel bad being part of a community around discrimination when so much of my life plays out as so normal.

Well, you know what they say about guilt. Good because I have no idea.

I know what I say though, and that's drop it like it's hot and ***** that noise.

Life's full of enough **** and sorrow and trouble without adding more to your plate for no reason.

[KenderWizard]

Heh.

In all seriousness...is it odd that I don't want to be seen as straight? Despite personal identification, I know the potential relationship will be perceived as a "normal" heterosexual relationship. And I'm having a hard time reconciling myself to that. Especially within the LGBT community - I present and live most of the time as a cis/het woman, and I feel bad being part of a community around discrimination when so much of my life plays out as so normal.

I have the same feelings. I identify as bisexual (I would also be fine with pansexual) and although I'm happy as a female, I think a lot of gender differences are instilled by society, I'm very feminist, I like both "girl things" and "boy things" and think those classifications are silly, etc. I wouldn't go so far as to identify as genderqueer, but I'm not particularly attached to being a female. Only in so far as I like being who I am, more or less, and I wouldn't particularly like to be a man suddenly for no reason. But if we all became genderless suddenly for no reason, I'd be cool with that.

But I wasn't comfortable enough with my sexuality to come to terms with it and work it out properly myself, let alone tell anyone else, until I was in a secure relationship with someone who loved me. That person is a cis heterosexual male, and we're still very very happy together. It makes me feel like I don't really belong as a bisexual, even though anyone who could see inside my head would clearly see that I'm not only sexually attracted to boys. It doesn't help that my mother thinks everyone has "crushes" on both* genders but you can only be a bisexual if you have been in relationships with both genders, and only a real proper bisexual if you've been in serious long-term relationships with both. I feel like I should go have a relationship with a girl to "prove" that I'd like it, but clearly that's a terrible idea because I have a wonderful relationship already. I think I'm an invisible LGBT person who can have her cake (cake being bisexuality) and eat it too (eating being the act of not suffering any discrimination aside from being hurt when people say mean things about LGBT people, but not serious discrimination like having people diss my relationship because of our genders or not being able to legally marry my significant other) and it feels like I'm cheating. It makes me feel bad, I don't want to cheat. I want to tell people I'm bi and not have people think I'm just a college-age liberal girl who thinks bi is in or something. But coming out to people when you're in a relationship is kind of weird. It's like "Why are you telling us, since your sexual preferences don't matter to anyone besides your partner?"

Sorry to ramble. This has been bothering me for ages but it seems a bit "first world problem" compared to, y'know, discrimination and relationships and stuff, but since Warkitty brought it up, it kind of all came pouring out!

* I say both because that's how our conversation was framed, not because I want to exclude people who identify outside the binary.

[turkishproverb]

Heh.

In all seriousness...is it odd that I don't want to be seen as straight? Despite personal identification, I know the potential relationship will be perceived as a "normal" heterosexual relationship. And I'm having a hard time reconciling myself to that. Especially within the LGBT community - I present and live most of the time as a cis/het woman, and I feel bad being part of a community around discrimination when so much of my life plays out as so normal.

*hugs* That's sweet of you, but you don't have to feel guilty.

[Coidzor]

*hugs* That's sweet of you, but you don't have to feel guilty.

True... it does show a good heart. Maybe even a noble spirit.

The problem with good hearts is that one has to protect them more and they need more looking after to prevent them breaking.

That's why I went with the callous and cruel model myself. Doesn't get quite the mileage or the power or the strength of spirit, but I can afford to let it get smacked around a bit more without having to guard it and nurture it. Pretty much just feeds itself by devouring all of the light and goodness that might seep into me from the outside environment, really.

[Nix Nihila]

That's why I went with the callous and cruel model myself. Doesn't get quite the mileage or the power or the strength of spirit, but I can afford to let it get smacked around a bit more without having to guard it and nurture it. Pretty much just feeds itself by devouring all of the light and goodness that might seep into me from the outside environment, really.

I think I might have to try that out. I've just come back from playing my first game of League of Legends.. and I think I could use some callousness if the majority of players are that rude.

Oh well, I suppose I'll get used to it.

On a more related topic, did anyone else hear about General Mills removing ads from the TV show Pretty Little Liars, supposedly because it has lesbian characters?

[Worira]

Because if there's one thing I know about lesbians, it's that they don't eat breakfast cereal.

Wait, what?

[golentan]

Because if there's one thing I know about lesbians, it's that they don't eat breakfast cereal.

Wait, what?

Also, lesbians cannot be leveraged in marketing strategies to male viewers. That would just be silly.

I haven't heard about this. Can counsel cite source?

[Heliomance]

I think I might have to try that out. I've just come back from playing my first game of League of Legends.. and I think I could use some callousness if the majority of players are that rude.

Oh well, I suppose I'll get used to it.

League of Legends has one of the most bilious, vitriolic communities on the Internet. Try to ignore them.

[DeadManSleeping]

Because if there's one thing I know about lesbians, it's that they don't eat breakfast cereal.

I can honestly say I've never seen a lesbian eat cereal. Think about it.

[LaZodiac]

I can honestly say I've never seen a lesbian eat cereal. Think about it.

Yes, but how many strait men see a lesbian in the morning early enough to have breakfast?

[golentan]

Yes, but how many strait men see a lesbian in the morning early enough to have breakfast?

<.<
>.>
...Darn...

Disqualified by the "Straight" part...

[Danne]

I can honestly say I've never seen a lesbian eat cereal. Think about it.

I have, but it was Kellogg's, not General Mills.

[Dogmantra]

I have, but it was Kellogg's, not General Mills.

Well obviously because they didn't advertise enough!

[unosarta]

I asked on Tumblr if lesbians eat breakfast cereal and the first response was A) from a lesbian, and B) "lolwut."

I dunno if that answers the question or not.

[golentan]

We're going to see that posted on failblog or some other site mocking it, and know that we are being mocked as homophobic in ignorance and share a private laugh, aren't we.

A dozen internets to the man, woman, or other who finds this tomfoolery, I say!

[LaZodiac]

We're going to see that posted on failblog or some other site mocking it, and know that we are being mocked as homophobic in ignorance and share a private laugh, aren't we.

A dozen internets to the man, woman, or other who finds this tomfoolery, I say!

....oh my god. Oh..oh my god.

I once again feel like I am part of something larger then its parts. Thank you Golentan, for bringing this thought to my attention.

[golentan]

I'm actually choking a little bit from laughter now. There seems to be a community for this already.

[LaZodiac]

I'm actually choking a little bit from laughter now. There seems to be a community for this already.

I love the internet.

[Skeppio]

I'm actually choking a little bit from laughter now. There seems to be a community for this already.

What have we done?!?