Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Timberwolf]

Just wondering, is anyone going to UK games day this year ?

I kinda half remember squats. Considering that I go back to the days before nids, they were absolutely brand new abbout halfway through my original run in the hobby and there3fore couldn't have eaten the squats just yet, the fact that I don't really remember the squats myself and the obvious coverage they were getting at the time in White Dwarf should be an indicator of the feelings about them at the time.

[Tren]

I've never seen any printed fluff or source material that suggests the Tyranids ate the entire Squat species. It seems like more of an urban legend propagated by the internet. As best I can tell, GW's official policy is that they never existed in the first place. I've heard it said in later publishings of Inquisition War, a Squat character has been retconned into being some other alien species--can anyone confirm that?

[Wraith]

Although no-one has, in canon, specifically stated "These guys are the Squats", it's generally accepted that we now have the Demiurg instead.

Long story short: They were never a big thing in terms of being a 40k faction - a few small worlds of even less significance than Tau space. They are, for all purposes and appearences, Space Dwarves, and they have only ever appeared in Battlefleet Gothic, Xenology, and a short passage in Codex: Tyranids (5th Ed.) which claimed that they were all but wiped out by a Hive Fleet. Now the few refugees remaining are in the Tau Empire, who keep the Demiurg around in order to take advantage of their superior technology.

[Cheesegear]

I've never seen any printed fluff or source material that suggests the Tyranids ate the entire Squat species. It seems like more of an urban legend propagated by the internet.

It was in a White Dwarf. Similar to Chaplain Xavier, Cypher's Sword, and other such things. The Squats were indeed eaten by Tyranids. The fact that you've never seen such things is because GW hated them so much (they didn't give anyone any money because they were terrible), and they've never been referenced again.

[HalfTangible]

Though I just about remember Squats first-hand, I have a close friend who really DOES remember "The Good Old Days" and has recalled them in a way that has confirmed for me what were once just personal suspicions, and please believe me when I say sincerely that I'm not just trying to start a controversy or flame the place up in any way.....

But.

Everything - from their rules to their models and everything in between - left only one thing clear: The Squats deserved to die in the worst way imaginable. Ending up as Termagaunt excrement was too good for them.

I wouldn't know. I just wanted to be nice.

[Tarinaky]

The fact that the Tyranids ate the Squats was mentioned very briefly in one White Dwarf as a joke in response to the harrasment they received at the time. It has since been taken as word of God.

It's probably more accurate to say that they simply never existed.

[Razgriez]

So here's a question for all...

For the past decade, I've been a dedicated Ultramarines player. though recently, my brother, has been gracious enough, to loan me his Space Wolves, while I rebuild my models.

I'm curious, Special character wise, how good would a 2000 point army be, with both Ragnar and Njal?

[BoSheck]

So here's a question for all...

For the past decade, I've been a dedicated Ultramarines player. though recently, my brother, has been gracious enough, to loan me his Space Wolves, while I rebuild my models.

I'm curious, Special character wise, how good would a 2000 point army be, with both Ragnar and Njal?

Holy crap, something I feel comfortable weighing in on!

Rangar is an assault oriented I5 T4 (sometimes I6) IC without eternal warrior and 4++. He'll probably get one good charge off and then be gibbed by a sarg with a powerfist. Not worth 240 points.

YMMV with Njal. He's made a showing in recent US tournament champ lists run by Tony Kupach who took Adepticon as well as NOVA, if I remember right. I like Njal. Shuts down enemy psykers, and has a slew of support abilities. You're going to want power armored Stormcaller, as I find the terminator model I have doesn't do much except look good. DON'T FORGET ABOUT NIGHTWING.

While we're here: Logan is expensive, and worth it. Ulrik is actually worse than a vanilla Wolf Priest in a lot of caes, Canis should have been an upgrade character (but I do use him a lot, the model looks good and he is an infantry weedeater), and Bjorn is...well you know better. Look at him. Unless you're clubbing seals and want to give them a giant target.

Which character works how and where is really largely dependent on the rest of your list, though.

[Hawkfrost000]

Has anybody seen the new Dark Eldar releases?

its the last two models from the Court of the Archon and honestly the look pretty sick.

almost makes me want to give up my Succubus

DM

[Turcano]

Though I just about remember Squats first-hand, I have a close friend who really DOES remember "The Good Old Days" and has recalled them in a way that has confirmed for me what were once just personal suspicions, and please believe me when I say sincerely that I'm not just trying to start a controversy or flame the place up in any way.....

But.

Everything - from their rules to their models and everything in between - left only one thing clear: The Squats deserved to die in the worst way imaginable. Ending up as Termagaunt excrement was too good for them.

Were they anything like kender? If so, I understand completely.

[Ogremindes]

Were they anything like kender? If so, I understand completely.

They were, from what I can gather, biker space dwarfs.

[Renegade Paladin]

And they weren't grimdark enough (their psykers didn't explode, their common people weren't actively trodden upon for lulz, etc.) and therefore had to go.

[Wraith]

Were they anything like kender? If so, I understand completely.

Ogremindes pretty much beat me to it, but Squats really could be summed up in those 3 words - Biker Space Dwarves. They were actually played completely seriously as the same sort of gruff, determined personalities that Fantasy Dwarves are supposed to be like, which in a way is what makes them so completely awful. Even in the 1990's, when they were formally done away with, Squats were such a culturally dated throw-back to the previous decade that they couldn't be taken seriously.

Sure, they had Power Armour and Boltguns (at least, their own equivalents to) but their primary Hat was that they rode around on big, 1980's 2000AD-style motortrikes, a lot of which looked even worse than the pictures above. Even in the days when Space Marines only came in one pose and Orks all wore the same uniform, Squats looked bad.

And they weren't grimdark enough (their psykers didn't explode, their common people weren't actively trodden upon for lulz, etc.) and therefore had to go.

They were gone LONG before the real GRIMDARK that we know and love began with 3rd Edition, so it must have been one heck of a pre-emptive strike.
I don't think Squats even had an official 2nd Edition Codex - I own all of the other factions', but I've never even seen that one - and 2nd Edition was actually quite tame compared to the modern storyline. Sure, Abaddon was still a big jerk and Iyanden was about to die off, but the Imperium was still leaning towards nobility and sometimes even benevolence in their actions rather than the self-defeating psychopaths that they are exclusively now.

[Sila Prirode]

Now, I know that most of the bashing GW gets is half-joking, but how bad is it really? How much people work at one codex? And do they even have a fluff department? I know in Magic the Gathering they have people work at design, development and other departments, and they all have long term plans for stuff they create.

Because the feeling I got from following this thread, and reading a bit about GW is that they have independent writers on fluff (printed in Black Library) and staff that works on GW releases (mostly rulebooks as far as I can tell). It seems that they don't have any long term plan for fluff, just a set of rules that has to be followed.

Now, that didn't work out for DC, so they rebooted it all within one storyline. Marvel also did something similiar. After that reboot DC made a comprehensive guide on each and every character, their powers, connections, important traits, etc. Each writer that takes upon writing for DC has to follow that set of rules. That way they have talented folk writing very good stories, but the character is still in their hands, so there is minimal need for retconning, readers are not confused when new writer takes over, and it allows for great crossovers that don't have gaping plot holes. Does GW have any form of plan for fluff?

TL;DR
How does GW control fluff, and do they have any means or plans for future development of their universe?

[Cheesegear]

TL;DR
How does GW control fluff, and do they have any means or plans for future development of their universe?

This is easily a question for the fluff thread. But, my answer is short enough to not warrant further discussion here;

They don't. The Universe can't develop because 40K is a setting, not a story. Introducing Tau to the Universe straight out of their behinds was hard enough, but, the storyline isn't going to change. Even Atlas Infernal, the 'most recent' novel set before, during and after the 13th Black Crusade doesn't actually change anything in regards to "Hey, guess what, it's 003.M42!"

In short. No.

[Sila Prirode]

This is easily a question for the fluff thread. But, my answer is short enough to not warrant further discussion here;

They don't. The Universe can't develop because 40K is a setting, not a story. Introducing Tau to the Universe straight out of their behinds was hard enough, but, the storyline isn't going to change. Even Atlas Infernal, the 'most recent' novel set before, during and after the 13th Black Crusade doesn't actually change anything in regards to "Hey, guess what, it's 003.M42!"

In short. No.

Yeah, but I didn't want to focus on fluff alone (that's why I choose this thread). There is a difference between expanding the story and expanding the setting. For example, take DnD, and it's various supplements. For example, Ebberon. It has well written campaign setting book, and a player's handbook. But there are various books that came out after, that expanded the setting itself, without changing the starting point in campaign.

For example, I remember reading here (or on fluff thread) that Imperial Fists were "Reasonable Marines" before, and that they introduced the pain aspect later. This does not change the rules for them, nor does it change the setting, but it is a major thing for all who play them, nobody likes to be told what to do. Likewise with squats, sure they had ugly models (at least by the pictures I saw), but they are an interesting part of the Warhammer experience, and there are people who would enjoy playing them.

So, my question is, does GW have any department whose work actually consist of exapanding the setting, or do they write the fluff as soon as they put out new line of minis?

[Cheesegear]

So, my question is, does GW have any department whose work actually consist of exapanding the setting, or do they write the fluff as soon as they put out new line of minis?

Not really. Unless you count Black Library.

The 'Fluff Changes' that have all happened in the history of the company has all been in part to how GW wants to be perceived and it's target audience. It's no secret at all that GW has been trying to wrangle in younger and younger players, and the fluff reflects that.

Basically, it has to do with edition changes. The fluff changes with each edition. I'm sure Zorg could point out the finer details of the evolution of Space Marines. But, each Chapter used to be highly individual and separatist. Now, in 5th, everyone loves Ultramarines, including the Imperial Fists, who canonically do not get along with the Ultramarines at all (in fact, no-one does).

In case anyone cares, the Ultramarines are the poster-Chapter because GW did a little bit of research and found out that blue was the most popular colour.

[Renegade Paladin]

I suspect that what he's getting at is whether or not they have some form of internal controls over what makes it into the canon and what doesn't, to prevent contradiction. And the answer is no. The fluff contradicts itself left, right, and center, and they give themselves a fig leaf to cover it up by noting that no records in the Imperium are certain rather than actually treating it as a problem worth addressing.

Speaking of Imperial Fists and Ultramarines, did anyone see the Ultramarines movie that Codex Pictures put out last year? I know they run into some Fists, but I've never watched it and barring some odd coincidence don't intend to, so I don't know what ensues. No need for spoiler details; I'm just curious as to whether or not they got along at all.

[HalfTangible]

I suspect that what he's getting at is whether or not they have some form of internal controls over what makes it into the canon and what doesn't, to prevent contradiction. And the answer is no. The fluff contradicts itself left, right, and center, and they give themselves a fig leaf to cover it up by noting that no records in the Imperium are certain rather than actually treating it as a problem worth addressing.

Just like Warcraft...

[Sila Prirode]

Speaking of Imperial Fists and Ultramarines, did anyone see the Ultramarines movie that Codex Pictures put out last year? I know they run into some Fists, but I've never watched it and barring some odd coincidence don't intend to, so I don't know what ensues. No need for spoiler details; I'm just curious as to whether or not they got along at all.

Yes. As a movie, it isn't worth watching. Dialogues are bad, story pacing is even worse, environment is bland, etc. But as a WH movie, it's not half bad, they have Land Speeder, Special weapons and stuff like that. Now mind, they got most of the things slightly wrong (if not outright wrong) but at least they didn't butcher it left and right, it still feels like WH movie.

And as for IF, and Smurfs, they get along just fine, but considering the circumstances in which they met, I think it's justified.

Now, for the other stuff, yeah I knew about Ultramarines and color blue, that's one of the main reasons I started to read into this subject. Editions change is the main reason I am concerned by this, because new setting =/= new players. It just turns off a portion of the old player base (which GW is fond of doing). R. Paladin answered my question, but I kinda knew that already, but I wanted to check with veteran folks if they have more insight in the matter.
Which is sad, actually, because if the rumors about 6th are to be believed they kinda killed their chances with younger players. My best bet about next step is to put out more "good" video games based on Space Marines, and get people to buy stuff that way. Which is kinda bad for hobby, because the kinda of people that would buy it for that reason is not the kinda that would devote enough time to painting and playing. Which means WH would slowly turn into a collectible action figures, that, yes, you can use them to play with.

[LeSwordfish]

So, my army was, until the start of this month, horde guard with Sisters and an Inquisitor allied. Since that's now illegal, useless, and requires 3 codices, I need some advice on Counts As. Would people/YOU* accept it if I counted:

1) An Inquistor model as a Lord Commissar. (I've got away with this before.)

2) A squad of sisters as stormtroopers. (This is the fishy one, since weapons AND armour are both different.)

This is presuming I'll say before hand of course.

I'm also trying to think of a way to work a acolyte warband in. Maybe a company command squad? Or techmarine-inquisitor and servitor-acolytes

I could rant for ages about how my seraphim, my vindicare (favourite damn model, that), half my acolytes (Servitor made from an epic titan, Eowyn as Creepy Psyker Girl, converted stormtrooper bodyguard, RTB-1 marine with multi-melta) and my Death cultists fit in nowhere, but i'm too tired and i've already bored my brother with that.

*Imagine me pointing at the camera at this bit.

[BoSheck]

So, my army was, until the start of this month, horde guard with Sisters and an Inquisitor allied. Since that's now illegal, useless, and requires 3 codices, I need some advice on Counts As. Would people/YOU* accept it if I counted:

1) An Inquistor model as a Lord Commissar. (I've got away with this before.)

2) A squad of sisters as stormtroopers. (This is the fishy one, since weapons AND armour are both different.)

This is presuming I'll say before hand of course.

I'm also trying to think of a way to work a acolyte warband in. Maybe a company command squad? Or techmarine-inquisitor and servitor-acolytes

I could rant for ages about how my seraphim, my vindicare (favourite damn model, that), half my acolytes (Servitor made from an epic titan, Eowyn as Creepy Psyker Girl, converted stormtrooper bodyguard, RTB-1 marine with multi-melta) and my Death cultists fit in nowhere, but i'm too tired and i've already bored my brother with that.

*Imagine me pointing at the camera at this bit.

To answer your question 1: yes, any time.
2: not in a tournament setting.

However, segue: Isn't all that stuff legal for Grey Knights? Or a lot of it? PAGKs have storm bolters instead of boltguns, but... you could Coteaz it up, no?

[LeSwordfish]

I considered grey knights, but they're still pretty different, not to mention i'd have to break the rules to ally them in anyway.

EDIT: Also i'd rather eat my own knees than play in a tournament with this army.

[Wraith]

I suspect that what he's getting at is whether or not they have some form of internal controls over what makes it into the canon and what doesn't, to prevent contradiction. And the answer is no. The fluff contradicts itself left, right, and center, and they give themselves a fig leaf to cover it up by noting that no records in the Imperium are certain rather than actually treating it as a problem worth addressing.

I was under the impression that, with the exception of the Main Rule Book and the Codices, GW very rarely state that any book is completely 'canon' and almost go by assumption that the newest book takes precedent until they decide otherwise. This is why they let so many novels contradict each other - only the Codices are 100% canon, the rest they can disown or ignore as it suites them.

This possibly explains the recent trend in BL novels for 'historical' stories - the Horus Heresy and Ciaphas Cain novels are distinctly set in 'the past' and thus have little or no immediate baring on the most current storylines. It certainly makes controlling the plot easier, when there's 10,000 years of uprisings, war and other confusing problems in between the two points.

2) A squad of sisters as stormtroopers. (This is the fishy one, since weapons AND armour are both different.)

I'd allow this quite happily - Stormtroopers have unusual weapons and armour compared to ordinary Guardsmen, so Sisters in Power Armour (with the handwave of 'it's not as good as Space Marine Power Armour') is actually quite reasonable.

[Tarinaky]

If we're talking friendly play rather than tournament then frankly if you put down a bottle of washing up liquid (empty, of course) and called it a Battlewagon I'd accept it. Nevermind Sisters as Stormtroopers or whatever.

[LeSwordfish]

Me and my brother occasionally test tanks by building them in Lego.

[Timberwolf]

Played a 5000 point game today. It was great fun and,l although it will take too long to write up, there were many highlights including Fabius Bile basically ripping a swath through his own troops, half of the 14 Noise marines dying to his "modifications" along with 4 of the 5 Chaos bikers and a load of berserkers. Also, in a display of epic fail, my 20 man plus Lemartes Death company died to Abaddon, 4 Terminators and 8 Raptors (all with Mark of Slaanesh so they went first as they charged - my DC had just finished killing a group of infiltrated Chosen) for the net gain of a wound taken off Abaddon. Yeah, the fearless wounds finished them off. Also, the epic combat between a Greater Daemon, the last of the Raptors, my Librarian, an Assault Marine, a Furioso Dread and the Sanguinor. That wretched Daemon just kept making its save for its last wound. I won in the end, 1 objective to 0 (we were playing 1 objective each and I shot his Noise marines off his objective)

[Callistarius]

For example, I remember reading here (or on fluff thread) that Imperial Fists were "Reasonable Marines" before, and that they introduced the pain aspect later.

From memory, the pain aspect in the form of the Pain Glove was introduced in Ian Watson's novel Space Marine back in 1993. This came out around the time 2nd ed was starting up and I'm not sure that there really was much fluff for the Imperial Fists before that.

If you can, get this novel. It is awesome, unlike the half-baked pretty bad re-hash Sons of Dorn. The way the marine aspirants are characterised is really good, especially the conflicted aspect of the inter-relationship. It kept consistant with old fluff - after the astartes encountered Chaos, they were mindwiped. None of this "everyone in the Imperium knows about the Horus Heresy" stuff - only the Inquisition, High Lords of Terra and Astartes Chapter Masters have the "need-to-know".

[Tarinaky]

From memory, the pain aspect in the form of the Pain Glove was introduced in Ian Watson's novel Space Marine back in 1993. This came out around the time 2nd ed was starting up and I'm not sure that there really was much fluff for the Imperial Fists before that.

If you can, get this novel. It is awesome, unlike the half-baked pretty bad re-hash Sons of Dorn. The way the marine aspirants are characterised is really good, especially the conflicted aspect of the inter-relationship. It kept consistant with old fluff - after the astartes encountered Chaos, they were mindwiped. None of this "everyone in the Imperium knows about the Horus Heresy" stuff - only the Inquisition, High Lords of Terra and Astartes Chapter Masters have the "need-to-know".

I imagine it has to differ from chapter to chapter. There's no way Blood Angels can't know since they're haunted by the memories of Sanguinius and the Cadians must have a pretty damn good idea what they're up against.

The Imperium is hardly a well organised and uniform machine...

[Craftworld]

I imagine it has to differ from chapter to chapter. There's no way Blood Angels can't know since they're haunted by the memories of Sanguinius and the Cadians must have a pretty damn good idea what they're up against.

The Imperium is hardly a well organised and uniform machine...

There are knights riding horses on some planets and some planets have native populations that only have fire. Kind of funny if you ask me.