Wouldn't people like to buy a book about the lives of Haerta, Ganonron and Jephton?

[martianmister]

I wouldn't like to buy a book about the lives of Haerta, Ganonron and Jephto, even if that's made by Rich and best book in the whole world.

[MagusBloodsoak]

{{scrubbed}}

[iBear]

Haerta, Ganonron and Jephto were chumps. Personally, I'd like to see some backstory on Lokor so we can finally find out why he was chronically insecure. Did his parents have difficulty showing him affection? Did he lose his first fight against a rat because he rolled all 1's and the rat rolled all 20's? Was he always picked last at Barbarian dodgeball and his highschool girlfriend left him for a Fighter? These burning questions are so hot, they produce solar flares.

Hak-Tonog could be in it as his wacky "I can't control when I pee" sidekick. Lokor could be all, "This is it, Hak-Tonog! With your help, I'm about to kill my first monstrous centipede!" Hak-Tonog would be like, "Hells yeah, we're gonna... Oh ye gods, not now! I'll be right back," and Lokor would be all, "Blargh, I am poisoned. It figures. I'm the worst barbarian ever."

[MagusBloodsoak]

For the fiends' plan to have a chance to be accepted by V, Aarindarius has to be able to easily kill that black dragon... otherwise, instead of being a ridiculous plan that actually might work, the plan is IMMEDIATELY recognizable to V as pure bull****. And the whole point of that plan is the fact that it actually might work.

So yeah, it's a safe bet that the fiends (who we know have been looking at V and his acquaintances for a while) are aware of what Aarindarius is capable of... The IFCC is VERY well informed on V and the people around him. They wouldn't dangle that plan in front of V if Aarindarius wasn't strong enough to pull it off.


Besides, if you read again through the comics depicting the preparation going on in Azure City before the fight... there's a reason V isn't saying "you know, my master could just pop in and kill Xykon". It's not going to be an easy fight, so I have to assume that since V didn't dare ask Aarindarius for help there, it has to mean that Aarindarius isn't so powerful he might vanquish Xykon without a significant risk to himself.

This is the logic that everyone in a story always acts in the most sensible way. That's not true in any story, and it sure isn't true in this one. But even if we grant your premise that V fully believes Aarindarius can defeat the Dragon... he may simply be wrong. It's not different to any student with a glorified idea of the capabilities of their idols, and when they grow up a little they realise they overestimated them in the first place. V is often wrong about this stuff. V is wrong in thinking his being teleported for round 2 would make a difference, and is wrong in thinking he'll effortlessly beat Xykon. People can make mistakes, especially when panicked and trance deprived. V didn't even think about the flaws in the fiends suggested plan after all, or see what the Imp saw about the flaw in their story.

Or Aarindarius might just be more powerful than Xykon, which I'd certainly buy as possible too.

None of it is conclusive, and we shouldn't make assumptions like this solely for the purpose of applying dubious logic.

[Mystic Muse]

You're still wrong. Even with the caster level of 15 we know it has the Dragon still retains 2 AMF spells to use, even if Xykon attacks first and hits.

14 is the minimum for a sorcerer, not 15, and I said it would take away most of them, not all of them.

I assume you've misread it a 3rd time. In order to know 3 level 7 spells, the caster level needs to be 17. It has nothing to do with 8th level spells at all. But like I said all along, it doesn't matter if the Dragon is 15th level of 17th, it amounts to all the same practical issues (that the Dragon comes out as a Great Wyrm, and that Maximized Energy Drain will still leave a few uses of AMF).

I never said anything about knowing 3 level 7 spells. I said it would lose 3, because that's how many a base level 14 sorcerer has per day.

Yet you're the one who has made all the factual mistakes so far, and I'm the one you're accusing of ignorance. No matter how many times you're proven wrong, you seem totally convinced that you're right on all your remaining points. Maybe after being proven wrong on the first point, and second point, and 3rd point, and fourth point, you'd realise there's a chance you're "being human" on the 5th point, and are also wrong.

I've been proven wrong on things that have nothing to do with the likeliness of the ABD being a Great Wyrm. I've been proven wrong on things that relate to Xykon potentially fighting the ABD, which has nothing to do with that. My ignorance of how you identify epic level spells has nothing to do with that. My mistake that I thought superb dispelling would affect the Antimagic field has nothing to do with that. My misreading of the Dragon's SR on the other hand, I admit was a huge screwup, and it does greatly damage my credibility.

None of this changes the fact that your argument that she's a great wyrm hinges on outright ignoring several things in the strip, whereas mine (That the ABD is an ABD and has a few levels of sorcerer) goes by what's in the strip instead of saying that what's in the strip is wrong, with no reason to assume that. Why should we assume the ABD is lying? Ignoring the imp for a moment, why should we assume that the ABD is lying, and instead of being part sorcerer, is a higher age category than what's said in the strip?

[Whiffet]

What we need is for the Giant to come in and say "Way off topic. Thread locked. By the way, the Dragon was a blah blah blah blah."

[Mystic Muse]

What we need is for the Giant to come in and say "Way off topic. Thread locked. By the way, the Dragon was a blah blah blah blah."

Yeah, good idea. How about we take the discussion of whether ABD is actually an ABD to a different thread?

In the meantime, I'm going to sleep.

[Mutant Sheep]

What we need is for the Giant to come in and say "Way off topic. Thread locked. By the way, the Dragon was a blah blah blah blah."

Its gonna happen. Though every couple posts, instead of "YOU ARE WRONG on this" "Yes, I was. About this one thing. You keep assuming the Giant lied in-comic.", we get a reasonable on topic post responding to the OP. I wouldn't buy the book, mostly because I would rather get Elseworlds DC comics than any OotS merchandise. (Sorry Giant, no offense intended, but I have to rank Batman above you.:P)
Yeah, I think Xykon could beat the ABD. Because I believe, I am not sure though, that level 30+ beats a level whatever-below 20 spellcasting level of a dragon.

[lio45]

This is the logic that everyone in a story always acts in the most sensible way. That's not true in any story, and it sure isn't true in this one. But even if we grant your premise that V fully believes Aarindarius can defeat the Dragon... he may simply be wrong. It's not different to any student with a glorified idea of the capabilities of their idols, and when they grow up a little they realise they overestimated them in the first place. V is often wrong about this stuff. V is wrong in thinking his being teleported for round 2 would make a difference, and is wrong in thinking he'll effortlessly beat Xykon. People can make mistakes, especially when panicked and trance deprived. V didn't even think about the flaws in the fiends suggested plan after all, or see what the Imp saw about the flaw in their story.

Are there even actual "flaws" in the fiends' plan? Seems to me it could work.

V's grown up, FYI. And he's a wizard himself. He's aware of what his master can and can't do, and so are the fiends.

I personally think we can take it to the bank that Aarindarius could easily defeat that dragon... seeing that 1) the fiends brought up the idea, AND 2) V readily accepted it.

If Aarindarius is too weak, then the whole idea of the alternate plan is complete BS that won't work and has about zero chance to be swallowed by V.

Or Aarindarius might just be more powerful than Xykon, which I'd certainly buy as possible too.

I don't buy that because it would make the story ridiculous to have one of the heroes being in very good terms with a person who could just pop in and defeat the Big Bad Evil Guy for them.

None of it is conclusive, and we shouldn't make assumptions like this solely for the purpose of applying dubious logic.

The other assumptions (your case) require rules minutiae that we know Rich doesn't care about at all... FYI...

I'd rather choose story consistency, and that points to Xykon > Mama Dragon.

[MagusBloodsoak]

14 is the minimum for a sorcerer, not 15, and I said it would take away most of them, not all of them.

And again you're wrong!
In order to KNOW 2 different level 7 spells you have to be 15th level as a Sorcerer... and the Dragon DOES use at least 2 on panel; Greater Teleport and Finger of Death... so there is no way she can be lower than 15. If we grant her plane shift, she goes to level 17. You've misread the table... try again here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/so...d.htm#sorcerer (look at the table for "spells known")

I never said anything about knowing 3 level 7 spells. I said it would lose 3, because that's how many a base level 14 sorcerer has per day.

*sigh*
15th level, not 14th. See above.

I've been proven wrong on things that have nothing to do with the likeliness of the ABD being a Great Wyrm.

Well, I'm pretty sure that the caster level is pretty relevant to the Dragon's age category, and you getting it wrong seems pretty relevant to that.

I've been proven wrong on things that relate to Xykon potentially fighting the ABD, which has nothing to do with that. My ignorance of how you identify epic level spells has nothing to do with that. My mistake that I thought superb dispelling would affect the Antimagic field has nothing to do with that. My misreading of the Dragon's SR on the other hand, I admit was a huge screwup, and it does greatly damage my credibility.

Well, at least you got that part right.

None of this changes the fact that your argument that she's a great wyrm hinges on outright ignoring several things in the strip

There is literally only a single bit of even decent evidence that she is an Ancient Black Dragon, and that is "Qarr referred to her as such" (with a single glance, while lying on the ground dying). As has been explained slowly and painfully to you:
1) That seems like much worse evidence than the caster level, which is pretty rock solid, and
2) Nobody is willing to take Redcloak's word in the exact same situation, so "such and such thought such and such off a glance" is being inconsistently applied. The Imp being wrong is entirely possible, whereas the caster level being wrong requires far more assumptions (and again, no calculation has been done by your side to show how likely adding said levels would be).

The other 2 bits of "evidence" are meaningless.
a) The Dragon's size is wrong (see every other dragon portrayed in this comic ever probably, and the Silver one particularly), and
b) The Dragon mentions she is particularly interested in arcane spells. But interest doesn't let you cast above your caster level, and it's purely imaginative to read from that the conclusion that the Dragon (somehow) managed to add extra casting levels (as many as 4-6 levels!). V is more interested in arcane lore than Xykon, it has no bearing on their caster levels. It might just mean the Dragon spent more time picking her spells carefully (sure seems like it). It doesn't necessarily mean anything!

On the other hand, the caster level we see is very good evidence, and I did a calculation for the damage taken in the fight with V, which to put it mildly is hugely suggestive that the Dragon has more HP's than you'd tend to find in an ABD.

, whereas mine (That the ABD is an ABD and has a few levels of sorcerer) goes by what's in the strip instead of saying that what's in the strip is wrong, with no reason to assume that. Why should we assume the ABD is lying? Ignoring the imp for a moment, why should we assume that the ABD is lying, and instead of being part sorcerer, is a higher age category than what's said in the strip?

Because she never says that she has extra levels in sorcerer, or that she is an "Ancient Black Dragon", if she did it would matter, but she doesn't! All that's said in the strip about it is from Qarr, there is nothing else from anyone I can see on the subject.

If we see V use Sunburst 3 times in a day we say "yup, V got to 16th level", we don't say "Wow, I guess V got a super ring of Wizardry off panel!"

[Whiffet]

I'm guessing this is why the Giant has taken to locking threads as soon as he answers a question.

... actually, I'm almost certain. Some thread about Durkon's alignment or something. He answers, thread degenerates into an argument about Miko (of course), and the Giant comes back locking the thread and saying he should start locking threads after answering questions.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, I think I'm just making an arse of myself at this point, and making more mistakes, so I'll drop it.

I just need to check things better in the future. I maintain the dragon is ancient with sorcerer levels rather than Great wyrm, but I'm dropping this before I do something I'll really regret.

Yeesh. Major credibility loss.

[GSFB]

The dragon would win. Also, it is an adult black dragon with at least 2 levels of sorcerer. Sorcerer levels stack with a dragon's effective sorcerer caster level. I could be mistaken, but I believe this is stated with certainty in the Draconomicon. But the dragon would still win despite being only "adult" and here is why:

The dragon prepares.

V went in without thinking. The dragon methodically researches, consults the Oracle, makes preparations, then strikes at the right moment. Also, the ADB has Tiamat on her side.

The AMF would negate all Xykon's non-epic spells, and non-epic spells are still non-epic even if you use metamagic feats to increase the spell level above 9.

The only thing Xykon might be able to do is disjunction, but we don't know if he even knows it. Also, with his caster level around 27 or so, he would still only have a mediocre chance. Superb dispelling is still just dispelling, and you can't dispel an AMF.

All that said, none of this has anything to do with the original post. The original post is about prequel books. And you know what prequel might be a tale? The story of how ABD came to have a dungeon surrounding the star metal.

[B. Dandelion]

2) Nobody is willing to take Redcloak's word in the exact same situation, so "such and such thought such and such off a glance" is being inconsistently applied.

Weren't you the one strenuously arguing Redcloak isn't reliable in that circumstance? I'm inclined to go with his statement.

b) The Dragon mentions she is particularly interested in arcane spells. But interest doesn't let you cast above your caster level, and it's purely imaginative to read from that the conclusion that the Dragon (somehow) managed to add extra casting levels (as many as 4-6 levels!).

So in your opinion, that's just completely meaningless text? Personally I don't see much point to bringing it up specifically unless the intent is to advise people that the dragon is better at spellcasting than other dragons of her age. That's not a stretch at all. "Hey, so-called Ancient Black Dragon appears to have spells a regular ABD shouldn't have. How is that?" See the strip. It's being handwaved.

V is more interested in arcane lore than Xykon, it has no bearing on their caster levels. It might just mean the Dragon spent more time picking her spells carefully (sure seems like it). It doesn't necessarily mean anything!

Okay so you are alleging that. Don't buy it, myself.

On the other hand, the caster level we see is very good evidence

The Giant's made it clear that Plot > Rules and for that matter Funny > Rules so the rules > what's explicitly stated in the text argument is actually not that persuasive.

Especially when you can't even argue the rules bar it, because a perfectly logical out presents itself in the form of the ABD having Sorcerer class levels.

Because she never says that she has extra levels in sorcerer,

Not in so many words, but dude -- that's a perfectly logical inference from her earlier statement. I don't play D&D either and that's what I inferred.

If we see V use Sunburst 3 times in a day we say "yup, V got to 16th level", we don't say "Wow, I guess V got a super ring of Wizardry off panel!"

Unless V had dropped a line about picking up magical equipment off-screen. Then you'd have cause to believe it.

Not to mention, the Giant just might have goofed. He's made it clear on numerous occasion the stats are not mapped out. He doesn't care about being as accurate as possible with regard to rules.

[Holy_Knight]

I wouldn't like to buy a book about the lives of Haerta, Ganonron and Jephto, even if that's made by Rich and best book in the whole world.

Really? If I somehow knew that a book was "the best book in the whole world", I would buy it.

[Warren Dew]

Its gonna happen. Though every couple posts, instead of "YOU ARE WRONG on this" "Yes, I was. About this one thing. You keep assuming the Giant lied in-comic.", we get a reasonable on topic post responding to the OP.

I'm not even sure that saves the thread since the author has indicated he's not interested in creating such a book.

I suppose someone else could write it, if they could do so while avoiding intellectual property violations.

[The Giant]

What we need is for the Giant to come in and say "Way off topic. Thread locked. By the way, the Dragon was a blah blah blah blah."

Way off topic. Thread locked. By the way, the Dragon was a blah blah blah blah.