"Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

[Amidus Drexel]

You are allowed to change the skill point allocations. So they could spend a skill point and learn to read.

On that note, does it say anywhere that animals can't speak humanoid languages? If we put their skill points into Speak Language... BAM! Talking dogs.

[TuggyNE]

You are allowed to change the skill point allocations. So they could spend a skill point and learn to read.

That would still make the default listings dysfunctional, and require handwaving or patching circumstance modifiers in.

Note, though, that wolves etc with a high enough track modifier (+5 total or more) would just take 10 and never have trouble.

[mattie_p]

That would still make the default listings dysfunctional, and require handwaving or patching circumstance modifiers in.

Note, though, that wolves etc with a high enough track modifier (+5 total or more) would just take 10 and never have trouble.

Again, wolves and dogs can come home if they take ten. Or anything else with a +4 racial scent/track/survival.

Just among the SRD,

Ape, Baboon, Badger, Bat, Bear (all), Bison, Boar... and too many do not get survival. They all get lost almost every day. Or get encounter (and/or possibly eaten by) natural hazards. I really hope animals breed like rabbits. Oh wait...

[TypoNinja]

Again, wolves and dogs can come home if they take ten. Or anything else with a +4 racial scent/track/survival.

Just among the SRD,

Ape, Baboon, Badger, Bat, Bear (all), Bison, Boar... and too many do not get survival. They all get lost almost every day. Or get encounter (and/or possibly eaten by) natural hazards. I really hope animals breed like rabbits. Oh wait...

So do most humans who attempt to walk to market at back by that logic, you have forgotten circumstance bonuses. Walk around the same few square miles for years in a row and you become very familiar with it. Pack/Herd animals can also make liberal use of the "aid another" action.

I'd have issues navigating a city I don't live in, but my hometown I could give you a guided tour without leaving my keyboard (or resorting to Google). Clearly navigating the are I live in is not a DC 15, or if it is, I've accrued some serious bonuses.

[nedz]

That would still make the default listings dysfunctional, and require handwaving or patching circumstance modifiers in.

OK — its a cross class skill — 2 skill points.

[Flickerdart]

On that note, does it say anywhere that animals can't speak humanoid languages? If we put their skill points into Speak Language... BAM! Talking dogs.

Speak Language doesn't give you the correct vocal apparatus to speak. It merely lets you learn it. The dog wouldn't be able to talk, and its limited Intelligence would restrict it to "simple, instinctual thoughts" as per Detect Thoughts, so it wouldn't be able to understand much. In other words, it'd make practically no difference.

[mattie_p]

So do most humans who attempt to walk to market at back by that logic, you have forgotten circumstance bonuses. Walk around the same few square miles for years in a row and you become very familiar with it. Pack/Herd animals can also make liberal use of the "aid another" action.

Knowledge(local) is not a class skill for commoners either. And most PCs do not put ranks in it either (unless fishing for a regional feat from FR). This is why it is dysfunctional.

Clearly navigating the are I live in is not a DC 15, or if it is, I've accrued some serious bonuses.

You clearly are not a commoner, must be an expert, then.

[TypoNinja]

Knowledge(local) is not a class skill for commoners either. And most PCs do not put ranks in it either (unless fishing for a regional feat from FR). This is why it is dysfunctional.
You clearly are not a commoner, must be an expert, then.

The Knowledge (local) skill is not dysfunctional in my opinion. Only the assumed application of it.

One may make any knowledge skill check (int check really) untrained, but are forbidden from learning anything higher than a DC10.

I may not be a tour guide without ranks in K(Local) but a DC10 still covers the "common knowledge/easy) categories.

You don't need ranks in Knowledge (Local) to know about your Local.

[Water_Bear]

The Knowledge (local) skill is not dysfunctional in my opinion. Only the assumed application of it.

One may make any knowledge skill check (int check really) untrained, but are forbidden from learning anything higher than a DC10.

I may not be a tour guide without ranks in K(Local) but a DC10 still covers the "common knowledge/easy) categories.

You don't need ranks in Knowledge (Local) to know about your Local.

But you do need it to identify Humanoids. And the DC to identify a 1HD humanoid is 11, too high for untrained use.

So yeah, pretty seriously dysfunctional.

[Mephit]

On that note, does it say anywhere that animals can't speak humanoid languages? If we put their skill points into Speak Language... BAM! Talking dogs.

"An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture" is the description used in the SRD. The Druid abilities also repeat that animals can't speak. Apparently, they were on to you.

[Amidus Drexel]

"An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture" is the description used in the SRD. The Druid abilities also repeat that animals can't speak. Apparently, they were on to you.

Darn.

Speak Language doesn't give you the correct vocal apparatus to speak. It merely lets you learn it. The dog wouldn't be able to talk, and its limited Intelligence would restrict it to "simple, instinctual thoughts" as per Detect Thoughts, so it wouldn't be able to understand much. In other words, it'd make practically no difference.

Ah, true. I should probably stay away from the "It's not specifically excluded, so it must be possible" line of thinking anyway. That way lies madness.

[TypoNinja]

But you do need it to identify Humanoids. And the DC to identify a 1HD humanoid is 11, too high for untrained use.

So yeah, pretty seriously dysfunctional.

No no, 10 +HD is for learning special and useful information about them. DC 11 is to know special powers or weaknesses of Humans.

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster

Its not a DC 16 check to go "Holy ****, troll! Run!" Recognizing the creature is easy, knowing its weaknesses and special powers requires the harder roll.

Identification of a species and special knowledge about that species are two entirely different categories of difficulties.

[Water_Bear]

Its not a DC 16 check to go "Holy ****, troll! Run!" Recognizing the creature is easy, knowing its weaknesses and special powers requires the harder roll.

Identification of a species and special knowledge about that species are two entirely different categories of difficulties.

The text you quoted said it fairly plainly; the knowledge check is to a) identify the creature and b) give you one or more bits of useful information about it. So, for a Troll, it would be "That's a Troll, a Giant race renowned for it's incredible ability to regenerate wounds" or for an Elf "That's an Elf, a Humanoid race infamous for being stuck up hippies."

Obviously, the designers meant to build a functional system where you could identify monsters on sight, but by RAW identifying the monster proceeds through the same mechanism (with the same DC) as determining useful information about it.

[mattie_p]

No no, 10 +HD is for learning special and useful information about them. DC 11 is to know special powers or weaknesses of Humans.

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

Honestly, it doesn't specify what you learn, so type is probably first.

Its not a DC 16 check to go "Holy ****, troll! Run!" Recognizing the creature is easy, knowing its weaknesses and special powers requires the harder roll.

Identification of a species and special knowledge about that species are two entirely different categories of difficulties.

10+ HD = madness. You know the kind of esoteric knowledge that pops up at the higher DC, such as where they live. DC 35 or so to know where your neighbor lives? Per RAW ... probably. Just don't do it.

[maximus25]

its elf only.

and its actually useful, for wizards/grey elves

isnt unholy toughness Undead Cha to HP?

I think Unholy Toughness gives you double your CHA SCORE to hp.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I think Unholy Toughness gives you double your CHA SCORE to hp.

Nope, it's just Cha to HP instead of Con. See here for an example.

[Jack_Simth]

its elf only.

Kind of. It's a regional feat, for "Celene, gray elf, high elf, Lendore Isles, tallfellow halfling, Verbobonc, wild elf, wood elf. (Oerth)" - and you can qualify for a regional feat with two ranks of Knowledge(Local) for that region, if I recall correctly (it's been a while since I read through the regional feat descriptor).

[Venger]

when you change your type, you temporarily gain proficiencies with new armors and weapons. not really dysfunctional, just odd

[Von Krieger]

I am highly offended by lawful good clerics who worship the cause of "being nice to little kids" and get the Death and Destruction domains from it.

I am highly offended that you are not creative enough to be able to wrangle death and destruction out of "being nice to little kids." Having had three younger siblings I can state that the one way that is guaranteed to make children happy is to break something, or have them break something. And that children will very often accidentally break things anyway.

And the death domain? Well if your cause is being nice to children, obviously you can't get angry at the misbehaving little brats. So the homicidal rage builds and you have to take it out on some sort of evildoers. Kobolds eat babies, after all. Being eaten would make a baby upset. Thus killing kobolds with Death magic is well within the purview of "being nice to little kids."

[Dusk Eclipse]

Kind of. It's a regional feat, for "Celene, gray elf, high elf, Lendore Isles, tallfellow halfling, Verbobonc, wild elf, wood elf. (Oerth)" - and you can qualify for a regional feat with two ranks of Knowledge(Local) for that region, if I recall correctly (it's been a while since I read through the regional feat descriptor).

Player's Guide to Faerûn nixed that and since it is 3.5 as opposed to 3.0 it replaces that rules (which is horrible).

[mattie_p]

This popped up in the Necropolitan thread, "Is Necropolitan worth it?"

All your HD will become d12, both past and present.
So if you are a human level 5 that becomes undead you get 5d12hp if you gain another level you gain an additional 1d12.

That's the common house rule, I believe, but you are confusing necropolitan with the lich and vampire templates. Compare the wording:

Necropolitan
Hit Dice: Increase to d12.

(Makes no reference to future hit dice)

Lich
Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.

The wording is quite different, and strict adherence makes necropolitan a dysfunctional rule.

[Qwertystop]

I am highly offended that you are not creative enough to be able to wrangle death and destruction out of "being nice to little kids." Having had three younger siblings I can state that the one way that is guaranteed to make children happy is to break something, or have them break something. And that children will very often accidentally break things anyway.

And the death domain? Well if your cause is being nice to children, obviously you can't get angry at the misbehaving little brats. So the homicidal rage builds and you have to take it out on some sort of evildoers. Kobolds eat babies, after all. Being eaten would make a baby upset. Thus killing kobolds with Death magic is well within the purview of "being nice to little kids."

Wow. That is horrible in an awesome way.

[Sith_Happens]

Wow. That is horrible in an awesome way.

Really? I think it's awesome in a horrible way.

[Archmage1]

hesitate: Beguiler 3 spell

In the eyes of your enemy, you seem large, powerful, and indomitable.
You fill a subject with doubts and misgivings, making it believe it is inferior to you.
On a failed save, the subject can take no action other than a move action on its current turn.
Hesitate confers no special bonuses for attackers attempting to hit the subject; the subject still defends itself.
If you attack the affected creature, the spell ends immediately.
Each round, as a swift action at the start of its turn, the
subject can attempt a new saving throw to end the effect.
If the save succeeds, the subject can then act normally.
You can cast this spell even when it's not your turn; however, you must cast it at the start of your opponent's turn to gain the benefit.

So, on a failed save, the character can't make any action other than a move on its turn. As a swift action, you can get a new save. If succeeds, can act normally.
Now, most Dm's will let you change the order of your moves, so you could make the save at the end.
But nowhere does it say that you need to try to save. If you don't try, you can't fail, so no effect, or, if you don't try, you can't succeed, in which case, you never get another save.
Seems a bit silly to me.

[Douglas]

But nowhere does it say that you need to try to save. If you don't try, you can't fail, so no effect, or, if you don't try, you can't succeed, in which case, you never get another save.
Seems a bit silly to me.

The "Save: will negates" line at the top means you have to make a save right off the bat when the spell is first cast. Spending an action to get a save is an optional extra for after that.

So no, this one is just you misreading something. The rules for it work exactly as intended.

[Telok]

On a failed save, the subject can take no action other than a move action on its current turn.
Hesitate confers no special bonuses for attackers attempting to hit the subject; the subject still defends itself.
If you attack the affected creature, the spell ends immediately.
Each round, as a swift action at the start of its turn, the
subject can attempt a new saving throw to end the effect.
If the save succeeds, the subject can then act normally.
You can cast this spell even when it's not your turn; however, you must cast it at the start of your opponent's turn to gain the benefit.

So let me get this straight. At the same level that beguiler's get Slow they also get a single target mind affecting spell. If they cast this spell on the target's turn then the target can get two saves (one as a swift) that round before it acts. Then the target continues to get another save every round.

The spell is better than Slow in that it limits the target to one move action and a swift saving throw. But it's also worse in that it is mind affecting, single target,has a save every round, and doesn't penalize speed or combat ability otherwise. I don't think I'll worry about Hesitate since the PCs will just use Slow.

[TypoNinja]

So let me get this straight. At the same level that beguiler's get Slow they also get a single target mind affecting spell. If they cast this spell on the target's turn then the target can get two saves (one as a swift) that round before it acts. Then the target continues to get another save every round.

The spell is better than Slow in that it limits the target to one move action and a swift saving throw. But it's also worse in that it is mind affecting, single target,has a save every round, and doesn't penalize speed or combat ability otherwise. I don't think I'll worry about Hesitate since the PCs will just use Slow.

I'd still use it. Just in different circumstances. The ability to cast it when its not your trun is the key part here, ambushed? Bust out hesitate, about to get full attacked because you ended your turn next to a melee type? WHAM, exploit their weak save to stop them from attacking you.

Slow still leaves your opponent with a single attack and hesitate leaves them with no attacks, and by my reading the first round does not get two saves. In fact I'm playing a mystic thurge, I think this is on my arcane side next level up. I think it makes a decent "Oh ****!" button.

[Telok]

Slow still leaves your opponent with a single attack and hesitate leaves them with no attacks, and by my reading the first round does not get two saves.

You still can't use it in a surprise round or when you're flat footed. Read the bit about it's immediate casting again. You cast it before they act (they get a save when you cast it), then the target goes (swift action for a save), and they still get to swift save every round.

For the effect it gives you need to massively overpower the target's Will save or be absolutely in dire need of that immediate "maybe he won't slap me." Slow will work on mindless or undead targets and halves their speed, Deep Slumber will hit multiple targets with up to 10HD, I'd even consider an extended Daze Monster (one save for two rounds of daze) if I'm this hard up for action denial spells. Frankly that immediate casting is the only thing it's got going for it. Unless it already used it's immediate action previously, I just can't see a way for the target to not get two saves that first round.

[Namfuak]

On a failed save, the subject can take no action other than a move action on its current turn.
Each round, as a swift action at the start of its turn, the
subject can attempt a new saving throw to end the effect.

So, as a swift action, the subject makes a save, but the subject cannot make any action other than a move. That part seems dysfunctional to me.

[noparlpf]

So, as a swift action, the subject makes a save, but the subject cannot make any action other than a move. That part seems dysfunctional to me.

Sounds like a poorly-worded explicit exception to the "no actions except one move" bit.