"Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

[TypoNinja]

huh?


other non-kobolds can still do this. kobolds just count as medium instead of small to avoid a penalty

I feel I'm misunderstanding you. what is it you're saying?

Races of Dragon is a really silly place to have rules for mining.

The only reason we know its the slightest bit logical is that we know Kobolds get a bunch of space devoted to them in that book, and Kobolds are all good at two things. Mining and trapmaking.

Someone who was not read up on in-universe information would not think of looking there for this data.

[Venger]

Races of Dragon is a really silly place to have rules for mining.

The only reason we know its the slightest bit logical is that we know Kobolds get a bunch of space devoted to them in that book, and Kobolds are all good at two things. Mining and trapmaking.

Someone who was not read up on in-universe information would not think of looking there for this data.

well, yeah, but they didn't think of it until then.

oh, I didn't say it was logical. because I don't think that at all.

ahh, that makes sense. thanks for the explanation

[Jeff the Green]

races of the dragon p 98. there's a table telling how your size and the kind of material you want to move affects your progress

And this gives rise to yet another dysfunctional rule: a Strength 1 Wisdom 25 character will excavate far more rapidly than a Strength 25 Wisdom 1 character.

[Ksheep]

And this gives rise to yet another dysfunctional rule: a Strength 1 Wisdom 25 character will excavate far more rapidly than a Strength 25 Wisdom 1 character.

Optimal use of force? Knowing exactly how much force is needed to be applied to which area to bring the entire wall down? Maybe knowing how to excavate without cave-ins and needing to spend a lot of time shoring up the tunnel.

[Tavar]

There's only so much brainpower can do in a situation like that. To use a sports analogy: being a pro level quarter back is difficult, and requires a decent brain to judge multiple factors. But leaving put the physical side of the equation is laughable.

[mattie_p]

Thank you, TypoNinja, for explaining my position. Dwarves like to mine as well, so Races of Stone might have been logical. Underdark books, possibly. But nothing says dragon like profession (mining) checks!

[Namfuak]

And this gives rise to yet another dysfunctional rule: a Strength 1 Wisdom 25 character will excavate far more rapidly than a Strength 25 Wisdom 1 character.

This is kind of applicable to any profession. A dex 1 character shouldn't even be able to thread a needle, but apparently is just as good at sewing as one with dex 20 if they have the same wis score and points invested.

[alanek2002]

masterwork tools provide a +2 bonus to any craft check... even if the check is caused by Fabricate.

[Qwertystop]

masterwork tools provide a +2 bonus to any craft check... even if the check is caused by Fabricate.

Actually, I think it's to any applicable craft check. Thus, the "tool"would have to be a blueprint or something.

[JaronK]

One of my favorite dysfunctional rules: items made of Darkwood, a strong and lightweight wood, weigh 50% less. Items made of Soarwood, which is supposed to be buoyant in air, weigh 25% less. How the heck is something lighter than air heavier than Darkwood?

JaronK

[The Random NPC]

I would guess they meant to say Soarwood weighs 25% of the original object. They, of course, did not succeed.

[TuggyNE]

One of my favorite dysfunctional rules: items made of Darkwood, a strong and lightweight wood, weigh 50% less. Items made of Soarwood, which is supposed to be buoyant in air, weigh 25% less. How the heck is something lighter than air heavier than Darkwood?

I would guess they meant to say Soarwood weighs 25% of the original object. They, of course, did not succeed.

Impressive. Although honestly, even reducing weight (mass) to 25% of the original is still far too much dense to float in air. Woods tend to have densities of maybe 500-900 kg/m³, while air is sitting at 1.225 kg/m³. And while soarwood is probably considerably weaker than other woods for the volume, it can't require more than five times the material for the same effect (if that), or it wouldn't be at all practical. So mass should be at most 1% of the original. Die, foul catgirls!

[ahenobarbi]

Impressive. Although honestly, even reducing weight (mass) to 25% of the original is still far too much dense to float in air. Woods tend to have densities of maybe 500-900 kg/m³, while air is sitting at 1.225 kg/m³. And while soarwood is probably considerably weaker than other woods for the volume, it can't require more than five times the material for the same effect (if that), or it wouldn't be at all practical. So mass should be at most 1% of the original. Die, foul catgirls!

IIRC in d&d the "weight" is not "mass" but "how hard it's to carry around" so even object that doesn't actually need any strength to carry (because it has so low density it floats in the air) still would have "weight" because it needs space. Or something.

[TuggyNE]

IIRC in d&d the "weight" is not "mass" but "how hard it's to carry around" so even object that doesn't actually need any strength to carry (because it has so low density it floats in the air) still would have "weight" because it needs space. Or something.

Weight != mass != volume != motion drag. I suspect they were looking for mass, i.e. the amount of material there, but I suppose if you really majorly mess up units you could imagine it was volume. (I've never heard of anyone measuring volume in pounds, though, so that's puzzling.)

If they really were trying to abstract away all those things into a single metric of carrying difficulty, though, they should have called it something more sensible (and largely made up) like "stones"* or perhaps "lugs". And in any case, I can't figure out how that would actually solve the problem at hand: something that floats in air and has only 1% of the mass is just not going to be very difficult to carry by any measurement, unless it's too voluminous to use.


*I am aware that a stone is a real unit of measurement, but no one in most parts of the world is likely to know how much it is or even exactly what it is, so it works well enough.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The descriptive text for soarwood says it has a "magical buoyancy" not that it's buoyant in air. If it were buoyant in air, you wouldn't even need an elemental to build an airship. Just a sail and some sort of ballasts.

The fact that it weighs 75% of what "normal wood" weighs while darkwood only weighs 1/2 isn't a contradiction at all. There's no dysfunction here.

[TuggyNE]

The descriptive text for soarwood says it has a "magical buoyancy" not that it's buoyant in air. If it were buoyant in air, you wouldn't even need an elemental to build an airship. Just a sail and some sort of ballasts.

Why is the idea that an airship can somehow benefit from sails so common? They can't, any more than a balloon can, or any more than a ship can stick special wooden sails into the sea in order to propel itself with the current in whichever direction it wishes, or any more than a car can have a generator hooked up to a special set of wheels to create the power to propel itself. An airship without a motor of some sort drifts at up to the same speed and direction as the air around it, because there is nothing for sails to use as leverage. Therefore, like an unpowered balloon, the only way to steer an unpowered or sailing airship is by changing altitude to catch different wind directions.

As far as I'm aware, the primary reason for the elementals bound on Eberron airships is to propel (and, to some extent, change altitude more conveniently without ballast), not to lift. In fact, if I'm not seriously mistaken, alchemical soarwood will keep an airship aloft even in a dead magic zone, though obviously it's unlikely to have any propulsion.

Edit: Note that you could, of course, make an airship that used gliding (i.e. the leverage of gravity) to propel itself. However, because it would have such a large volume in most cases, the wind would still have a large influence, and it would be difficult to get much force from something that has a great deal of drag and very little effective weight, not to mention the challenge of substantially increasing lift (to gain height) and then decreasing it (to move in the desired direction).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why is the idea that an airship can somehow benefit from sails so common? They can't, any more than a balloon can, or any more than a ship can stick special wooden sails into the sea in order to propel itself with the current in whichever direction it wishes, or any more than a car can have a generator hooked up to a special set of wheels to create the power to propel itself. An airship without a motor of some sort drifts at up to the same speed and direction as the air around it, because there is nothing for sails to use as leverage. Therefore, like an unpowered balloon, the only way to steer an unpowered or sailing airship is by changing altitude to catch different wind directions.

As far as I'm aware, the primary reason for the elementals bound on Eberron airships is to propel (and, to some extent, change altitude more conveniently without ballast), not to lift. In fact, if I'm not seriously mistaken, alchemical soarwood will keep an airship aloft even in a dead magic zone, though obviously it's unlikely to have any propulsion.

Edit: Note that you could, of course, make an airship that used gliding (i.e. the leverage of gravity) to propel itself. However, because it would have such a large volume in most cases, the wind would still have a large influence, and it would be difficult to get much force from something that has a great deal of drag and very little effective weight, not to mention the challenge of substantially increasing lift (to gain height) and then decreasing it (to move in the desired direction).

I believe you are mistaken, Tuggyne. I don't remember ever reading anything about airships staying aloft in dead-magic zones. Moreover, I'm almost certain I -do- remember reading that if the elemental is freed (typically by destroying the binding struts) that the airship immediatley begins to plummet earthward.

You do have a point about the sail thing but oars would work. That is, after all, what wings are, in essence.

[toapat]

You do have a point about the sail thing but oars would work. That is, after all, what wings are, in essence.

No, that is what Propellers and Jet engines are equivalent to.

you are also right that Airships in Eberron drop out of the sky without their magic

[TuggyNE]

I believe you are mistaken, Tuggyne. I don't remember ever reading anything about airships staying aloft in dead-magic zones. Moreover, I'm almost certain I -do- remember reading that if the elemental is freed (typically by destroying the binding struts) that the airship immediatley begins to plummet earthward.

Well, I've read somewhere that they do stay aloft, though it was not in an actual Eberron sourcebook, so it could well be mistaken. I'd love to know for sure with quotes. (I am also curious, in that case, as to why soarwood is even used at all. Surely they have darkwood, which would be either more useful, by strict dysfunctional RAW, or nearly as useful, by apparent intention.)

You do have a point about the sail thing but oars would work. That is, after all, what wings are, in essence.

Well, assuming you can get enough thrust out of them, yes. However, air is much less dense than water, so it's harder to get measurable amounts of thrust (and it requires a more precise and complicated stroke, I believe, and entails substantial drag on the return compared to water oars). So yeah, an airship that uses complex oar-ish systems and a variable ballast could plausibly work, but would require a good bit of aerodynamic knowledge. (Without lighter-than-air gasses, I'm not actually sure how you'd effectively make a ballast system that can compensate for extra lift. Let pieces of soarwood float off into the sky? Seems wasteful.)

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Did I mention I'm in a catgirl-murdering mood lately?

[toapat]

Well, I've read somewhere that they do stay aloft, though it was not in an actual Eberron sourcebook, so it could well be mistaken. I'd love to know for sure with quotes. (I am also curious, in that case, as to why soarwood is even used at all. Surely they have darkwood, which would be either more useful, by strict dysfunctional RAW, or nearly as useful, by apparent intention.)



Well, assuming you can get enough thrust out of them, yes. However, air is much less dense than water, so it's harder to get measurable amounts of thrust (and it requires a more precise and complicated stroke, I believe, and entails substantial drag on the return compared to water oars). So yeah, an airship that uses complex oar-ish systems and a variable ballast could plausibly work, but would require a good bit of aerodynamic knowledge. (Without lighter-than-air gasses, I'm not actually sure how you'd effectively make a ballast system that can compensate for extra lift. Let pieces of soarwood float off into the sky? Seems wasteful.)

I think darkwood only comes from Zendrik in Eberron, of the planes that wont most likely use PCs are dish towels, which makes it practically impossible to log.

And no, the Elemental Rings are needed to keep airships aloft. Only one airship would outright crash if the soul-gems were shattered, and that is a Yacht smaller then the DDO guild airships, made mostly of metal.

[JaronK]

Even if it's not supposed to be lighter than air anyway, why do ships made of Soarwood travel twice as fast (due to the fact that they "skim effortlessly over the surface of the water") and yet Darkwood ships don't? Kinda weird.

Also note that page 216 of the Eberron Campaign setting says "Aerenal is best known for its mystical lumber. Due to the magical resonance of the land, densewood, livewood, soarwood, and bronzewood trees only grow on the island continent; darkwood also flourishes in the jungles, though these trees can be found in other lands." So Darkwood is actually easier to get than Soarwood, as it's found in more places (also the elves don't like to harvest too much).

So yeah, something's wrong here. Darkwood should be lighter weight and easier to get than Soarwood, but Soarwood ships evidently skim the surface of the water (one assumes they're laden down with people and cargo, heavily implying the Soarwood must be lighter than air). It's just borked.

I suppose one possibility is that the magical buoyancy has to be awakened with a spell or something, so regular items made of it aren't buoyant?

JaronK

[TuggyNE]

I suppose one possibility is that the magical buoyancy has to be awakened with a spell or something, so regular items made of it aren't buoyant?

I've heard references to "alchemical soarwood", so I assumed it was an Ex effect that required some alchemy to fully awaken. (Whether this is actually the case I'm not sure.) Still, raw soarwood shouldn't be heavier than darkwood, and should probably be considerably lighter than balsa. (Assuming average wood at ~750 kg/m³ average, and balsa at ~170 kg/m³, that would suggest 20% at max, and probably more like 5% or 10%.)

Also, your much-appreciated quote about the prevalence of darkwood strengthens my desire for quotes on whether soarwood works in AMFs or not.

[willpell]

As long as this thread is, I suspect this has been mentioned, but in case it hasn't. Caltrops. They ignore all armor, shield and deflection bonuses to the character's AC, but a character who is wearing shoes gets a +2 armor bonus. Which, per the text, is ignored, even though it exists nowhere else.

Here's another one, from the Vision and Light section, assuming I'm reading the last paragraph right. You are in the area of shadowy illumination around an army's light source. The army consists of 500,000 human soldiers and 1 dwarf. Because you are within the darkvision range of the dwarf, you cannot make a Hide check to gain concealment relative to the 500,000 humans.

[TuggyNE]

As long as this thread is, I suspect this has been mentioned, but in case it hasn't. Caltrops. They ignore all armor, shield and deflection bonuses to the character's AC, but a character who is wearing shoes gets a +2 armor bonus. Which, per the text, is ignored, even though it exists nowhere else.

I don't think it has, partly because the common sense meaning is so obvious (i.e., it's an armor bonus that isn't ignored like the others) that it doesn't really seem to matter.

Here's another one, from the Vision and Light section, assuming I'm reading the last paragraph right. You are in the area of shadowy illumination around an army's light source. The army consists of 500,000 human soldiers and 1 dwarf. Because you are within the darkvision range of the dwarf, you cannot make a Hide check to gain concealment relative to the 500,000 humans.

You have concealment relative to the 500,000 humans already. However, your basic point (that the last phrase is overly general) is correct: it should say that you can't use shadows to make a Hide check from a character with darkvision when inside their range. Or, better yet, just note that they effectively don't see any shadows within that range, which denies you concealment, which denies the Hide check. (Similarly, the range of shadowy illumination is doubled for low-light vision, which eliminates certain areas of concealment relative to those with low-light vision.)

[willpell]

You have concealment relative to the 500,000 humans already.

Yeah I said that wrong. I meant "concealment" in the general English Language sense; it'd be total concealment (at least) in game terms if you made a successful Hide check - you'd be invisible in the darkness, not just dimly lit. But yeah, all those rules are wonky because the rules about whether you can hide are based on the assumption that "can I be seen" is binary, while the actual rules for determining whether you can be seen are (and should be, obviously) character-specific.

[Venger]

races of stone's dwarf sub lvls for clerics will let you swap a 4th lvl spell slot for MWP with a warhammer (if you worship moradin)

problem is, clerics are already proficient with their god's favored weapon. what's moradin's?

warhammer.

there's a reason you've never heard of someone taking dwarf cleric sub lvls.

[TypoNinja]

races of stone's dwarf sub lvls for clerics will let you swap a 4th lvl spell slot for MWP with a warhammer (if you worship moradin)

problem is, clerics are already proficient with their god's favored weapon. what's moradin's?

warhammer.

there's a reason you've never heard of someone taking dwarf cleric sub lvls.

Only if you've taken the war domain, so no not dysfunctional.

On the other hand I do think a MWP for a 4th level spell slot is a rotten deal.

[willpell]

On the other hand I do think a MWP for a 4th level spell slot is a rotten deal.

Seriously. You don't even have 4ths until level 7, by which time you don't really need a warhammer, you've got more than enough 2nd-level and up slots to prepare as many Spiritual Weapons as you could possibly need (or at least very close). Add this to the list of rules that change in my campaign, I guess.

[JellyPooga]

On the other hand I do think a MWP for a 4th level spell slot is a rotten deal.

It's not just MWP, but the equivalent of Weapon Specialisation as well and it replaces a 2nd level spell slot (the Racial Sub Level is for Cleric Level 4). Not so bad a deal, really, I think.

[willpell]

It's not just MWP, but the equivalent of Weapon Specialisation as well and it replaces a 2nd level spell slot (the Racial Sub Level is for Cleric Level 4). Not so bad a deal, really, I think.

Okay, yeah, that's much better. Still probably not a great trade, but not an insane one. Does it include a Weapon Focus or just Specialization? Either way, dwarves favor fighter, so sticking real Weapon Spec on it is an option, and they should stack (whether this is worth 8 levels I dunno, but you'll have BAB 7 so that's at least two chances per round to apply the bonus, double that if you eat the penalties for wielding two warhammers...hm, perhaps use a Small one so it counts as Light and reduces the penalty, except I think that adds a bigger penalty, but maybe there's a workaround? I could see a "two-hammers style" as the dwarven equivalent to rapier and main-gauche or katana and wakizashi....).