Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Tome]

Actually, it's due to the way the break point for Rallying works.

Which is to say, having 7 models in a unit means you have to kill 4 of them to stop the unit from regrouping. This is the most points-efficient unit size you can get for that.

[Ninjaman]

maybe. I suppose part of why I never got it was that I play marines(must have 10 men to have nice things, or can get them all with any model), and I get a little OCD about point costs being nice numbers.

as for one special weapon, I think the most common things are one or two models only or one per 5.

Ork can have one for every ten.

IG are
Guardmen:1 for 10
Veterans: 3 for 10

But then again there are different special weapons. And weather you talk about heavy or assault might make a differnce.

[Renegade Paladin]

Guardsmen and Veterans don't have variable squad sizes, though, so it's impossible to say what special weapons they may or may not be able to take if you had more or less in a squad.

Storm troopers give a good guess, though, since they get two special weapons no matter how many of them there are.

[Ninjaman]

Guardsmen and Veterans don't have variable squad sizes, though, so it's impossible to say what special weapons they may or may not be able to take if you had more or less in a squad.

Storm troopers give a good guess, though, since they get two special weapons no matter how many of them there are.

First: What differnce would that make?
Second: Which i personally find stupid. 10 veterans can have more special weapons than 10 storm troopers.

[Hawkfrost000]

First: What differnce would that make?
Second: Which i personally find stupid. 10 veterans can have more special weapons than 10 storm troopers.

except that compared to veterans, all the stormtroopers have special weapons.

DM

[IthilanorStPete]

Random idea I had - sorting the codexes into tiers of power and flexibility. This is what I came up with:

Tier 1: Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights
Tier 2: Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Necrons, Orks, Eldar
Tier 3: Tyranids, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Space Marines, Black Templars, Dark Angels
Tier 4: Tau, Chaos Daemons

A few notes:
-Dark Eldar might deserve to be up in the top tier; I'm not quite sure.
-Sisters might be in the bottom tier, I just don't have any experience with their new "codex".
-Dark Angels are as low as they are because they only have one viable list - Deathwing.
-It might be more accurate to have 5 tiers, to better sort out the mass of things in the middle.

Thoughts?

[Provengreil]

Interesting idea. is this supposed to solve something or just be a bit of a thought excercise?

either way, couple things:

1. tau may not have many good lists, but filling the battlefield with suits and shield drones can be quite effective. they can't kill you in close combat if they die before they reach you.

2. 5 tiers would probably be better. a tier between your current 2 and 3 could contain space marines, necrons, tyrranids, and probably eldar.

[Renegade Paladin]

First: What differnce would that make?
Second: Which i personally find stupid. 10 veterans can have more special weapons than 10 storm troopers.

Yeah, but veterans get the ol' five finger discount courtesy of the chef's special.

[Squark]

Actually, it's due to the way the break point for Rallying works.

Which is to say, having 7 models in a unit means you have to kill 4 of them to stop the unit from regrouping. This is the most points-efficient unit size you can get for that.

Ah, that makes sense.


Still, 119 points for my Immortals annoys me to no end. Those last few points will annoy me for all eternity.


Here is Cheesegear's explanation for the rule of 7's, which goes into a little more detail on the history of it.

[HalfTangible]

I realize we're generally not supposed to do this, but how well would an assault marine squad be if all the units had two chainswords (or is equipping two chainswords even legal? I know it can be done with, say, lightning claws)

[Renegade Paladin]

There would be absolutely no point; in fact it would make them worse. A chainsword is simply a close combat weapon, and having two close combat weapons in an assault is exactly the same as having a CCW and pistol. All you're doing is taking away their ability to shoot.

[userpay]

There would be absolutely no point; in fact it would make them worse. A chainsword is simply a close combat weapon, and having two close combat weapons in an assault is exactly the same as having a CCW and pistol. All you're doing is taking away their ability to shoot.

Shouldn't that give them an extra attack in cc though?

[Etcetera]

Shouldn't that give them an extra attack in cc though?

No, because pistols count as CCWs in melee.

When in melee, Pistol + CCW is exactly the same as CCW + CCW, so, as Renegade said above, you're sacrificing shooting for no gain in melee.

[Squark]

I realize we're generally not supposed to do this, but how well would an assault marine squad be if all the units had two chainswords (or is equipping two chainswords even legal? I know it can be done with, say, lightning claws)

You might be able to do this, but it's like giving Tactical marines a bolter and a Chainsword; You can do it, but swapping the pistol for a bolter ultimately is strictly worse mechanicly than the standard load outs.

And frankly, in that case, it looks silly to have Marines wielding Bolters in one hand. Not sure whether an Assault marine with 2 chainswords would look similarly silly.

[Ricky S]

You might be able to do this, but it's like giving Tactical marines a bolter and a Chainsword; You can do it, but swapping the pistol for a bolter ultimately is strictly worse mechanicly than the standard load outs.

And frankly, in that case, it looks silly to have Marines wielding Bolters in one hand. Not sure whether an Assault marine with 2 chainswords would look similarly silly.

They look pretty cool but mechanically its stupid. I dont think you can give your guys two chainswords anyway as it says in the entry they come with "chainsword and bolt pistol".

Also remember that a standard marine uses his bolt pistol in close combat rather than his knife. That is why marines dont count as having two close combat weapons when on tabletop despite the knives they all carry. Why wrestle someone and stab them when you can just pull the trigger and blow their face away?

[Cheesegear]

Random idea I had - sorting the codexes into tiers of power and flexibility.

I did it once, got raged at. It went something like this;

Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar
Codex Marines, Grey Knights, Necrons, Dark Angels, Black Templars
Eldar, Orks, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Marines
Tau, Tyranids



Chaos Daemons

Dark Eldar might deserve to be up in the top tier; I'm not quite sure.

Dark Eldar destroy things.

Sisters might be in the bottom tier, I just don't have any experience with their new "codex".

Sisters are only slightly worse than Codex Marines. Since they build pretty much exactly the same list. But don't get Plaserbacks.

Dark Angels are as low as they are because they only have one viable list - Deathwing.

Ravenwing is also viable, but it depends on points - so does Deathwing. It depends on what you consider more important, power or flexibility? Dark Eldar might as well be on the very bottom if you consider "What about a Dark Eldar army without vehicles?"

Basically, everything in the top 2 tiers have two or three viable builds. Everything in the bottom two tiers only have one or two viable builds, and even then, they're not that powerful.
Chaos Daemons, while they do have two or three viable builds, they're just too random and in any given tournament you can come top 3/5/8 or dead last.

[Renegade Paladin]

That is why marines dont count as having two close combat weapons when on tabletop despite the knives they all carry. Why wrestle someone and stab them when you can just pull the trigger and blow their face away?

Because you can do both and get +1 attack.

[Squark]

Because you can do both and get +1 attack.

The knife doesn't exist for the purpose of game play.

[IthilanorStPete]

Dark Eldar list for review, yay!

Here's my revamped list, though it could definitely use more tinkering. Currently at 1496 points, total.

HQ
Duke Sliscus - 150 pts (does the job jest as well as the Archon I had w/ a blast pistol and gives me a combat drugs reroll)

Haemonculus Ancient - 100 pts
Agoniser

Haemonculus - 70 pts
Agoniser

Elites
Incubi (x4) - 158 pts
Klaivex
+Venom

Grotesques (x4) - 245 pts
Aberration w/ Scissorhand, Mindphase Gauntlets
+Raider w/ Flickerfield

Troops
Wyches (x7) - 194 pts
Shardnet & Impaler, Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
+Raider w/ Flickerfield

Wyches (x7) - 194 pts
Shardnet & Impaler, Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
+Raider w/ Flickerfield

Wyches (x5) - 155 pts
Shardnet & Impaler, Haywire Grenades
Hekatrix w/ Agoniser
+Venom

Heavy Support
Ravager - 115 pts
Flickerfield

Ravager - 115 pts
Flickerfield

There's definitely something of a troop count issue now; I'm not sure that the 2nd Haemonuculus is worth all the Wyches I lose. Thoughts?

[userpay]

No, because pistols count as CCWs in melee.

When in melee, Pistol + CCW is exactly the same as CCW + CCW, so, as Renegade said above, you're sacrificing shooting for no gain in melee.

Ah well I thought the CCWs had to be of the same kind rather than just two CCWs.

[Squark]

Ah well I thought the CCWs had to be of the same kind rather than just two CCWs.

That's only true for Lightning claws, and maybe a few other select special CCWs.

[IthilanorStPete]

That's only true for Lightning claws, and maybe a few other select special CCWs.

Power fists and thunder hammers, to be precise. Those are very rarely dual-wielded, though - fists are usually on a Sergeant or something with a boltgun, and a dude with a hammer usually wants a storm shield to survive until combat reaches initiative 1.

[Ninjaman]

except that compared to veterans, all the stormtroopers have special weapons.

DM

No. Special weapons are S7 ap2. Not S3 ap3

Interesting idea. is this supposed to solve something or just be a bit of a thought excercise?

either way, couple things:

1. tau may not have many good lists, but filling the battlefield with suits and shield drones can be quite effective. they can't kill you in close combat if they die before they reach you.

2. 5 tiers would probably be better. a tier between your current 2 and 3 could contain space marines, necrons, tyrranids, and probably eldar.

Space marines are better than tyranids.

Yeah, but veterans get the ol' five finger discount courtesy of the chef's special.

What?

I did it once, got raged at. It went something like this;

Imperial Guard, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Eldar
Codex Marines, Grey Knights, Necrons, Dark Angels, Black Templars
Eldar, Orks, Sisters of Battle, Chaos Marines
Tau, Tyranids



Chaos Daemons

Are black templars really that good? Also aren't tau and eldar about same level?

[Etcetera]

Are black templars really that good? Also aren't tau and eldar about same level?

Tau have absolutely no anti-psyker, for one.

[IthilanorStPete]

Random (probably not that good) idea - a Pinning-focused Guard list.

HQ - not sure. Presumably a Company Command Squad for the good old Force Multiplication!

Elites - Probably 2 squads of Psykers for Weaken Resolve, so even Termies go running away. Then one squad of Ratlings.

Troops - Probably Veterans with Sniper rifles for more pinning? And maybe some meltavets for anti-tank.

Fast Attack - none.

Heavy Support - some combination of artillery - Medusas provide anti-tank, Colossi/Griffons can provide pinning.

[Cheesegear]

Are black templars really that good? Also aren't tau and eldar about same level?

With Abhor the Witch? Yes. Free Scout move for everyone in the army because everyone takes Psykers. Immune to targeting powers. Double Cyclone Terminators for dirt cheap. Shooty armies can suck it because Templars move very fast. Dirt cheap Typhoons, etc.

Tau are crap. No psyker defense, absolutely terrible in Assault, and completely unprepared for Alpha Strikes and the entire army is made null and void by a single Plasma Siphon because Ward hates Tau...Or something.

Eldar have psyker defense, have solid assault units (I hate Dire Avengers so much), good anti-tank and perfectly fine anti-FNP. But they aren't the best. And my list reflects that.

[Renegade Paladin]

What?

You'd need to read the Guard codex to get it. Here, I'll help you.

The Ratlings do not limit their black-marketeering to food stores alone and much of the non-standard issue weaponry common amongst the more veteran troopers has been obtained courtesy of 'the chef's special.'

Random (probably not that good) idea - a Pinning-focused Guard list.

HQ - not sure. Presumably a Company Command Squad for the good old Force Multiplication!

Elites - Probably 2 squads of Psykers for Weaken Resolve, so even Termies go running away. Then one squad of Ratlings.

Troops - Probably Veterans with Sniper rifles for more pinning? And maybe some meltavets for anti-tank.

Fast Attack - none.

Heavy Support - some combination of artillery - Medusas provide anti-tank, Colossi/Griffons can provide pinning.

This is the one situation in which you use mortars. If you really want pinning, you want more of it, and that's all a mortar squad is good for.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

No. Special weapons are S7 ap2. Not S3 ap3

What?

ONE special weapon is s7 ap2. The rest range from flamers (s4 ap5) to Melta-guns (s8 ap1).

And what he ment were that hot-shots lasguns is a special weapon compared to standard lasguns. The reason they cant take more is because they already have cool wargear. Kinda like Sternguard.

[Cheesegear]

And what he ment were that hot-shots lasguns is a special weapon compared to standard lasguns. The reason they cant take more is because they already have cool wargear. Kinda like Sternguard.

Not really. Sternguard can literally take as many special weapons as they want. Albeit that they are Combi-Weapons.

Stormtroopers have S3, AP3, that's good against...Infantry not in cover. Which doesn't happen often.

Sternguard are a whole different kettle of fish, being good against everything, as well as the ability to be Lineguard and take two Lascannons (and Combi-Plasmas), and a whole host of other things. Sternguard are the ultimate kitchen sink unit. Being able to deal with anything and everything. Stormtroopers...Are not that.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Dark Eldar might as well be on the very bottom if you consider "What about a Dark Eldar army without vehicles?"

Works fine in low (as in no more than 1000) point games. Just forces you to rely on haemonculi and warriors, which isn't good.