Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Cheesegear]

I, for instance, chose not to buy Melta Bombs for any of my units, and decided to try out Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch as my vow, since none of the other players use Psykers.

Against Tyranids it's ri-G* Damn-diculous at how good it is. The absolutely insane part about AtW, DtW, is that it specifically includes 'Area of Effect' Powers and that's like...Amazing, since similar abilities (Aegis, Tomb Spyders) don't do that. But, yeah, in your meta-game where psykers aren't the norm (wtf ), and with Han Salio, ignoring the odds is probably better.

Crusader Squad 18, 245pts
-9 Initiates (Pistol & CCW), Powerfist, Flamer
-8 Neophites (Shotguns)

Crusader Squad 18, 245pts
-9 Initiates (Pistol & CCW), Powerfist, Flamer
-8 Neophites (Shotguns)

Crusader Squad 18, 235pts
-9 Initiates (Pistol & CCW), Powerfist, Flamer
-7 Neophites (Shotguns)

9 + 8 = 17
9 + 7 = 16

I don't understand the significance of '18' - unless you're really bad at maths.

my Emperor's Champion (Captain Han Salio)

I remember naming that guy!

The Tyrant loses two wounds to missiles, and two Zoanthropes get Instant Death'd.

That's some very nice shooting. Even moreso because of the two failed Invulnerables on the Zoanthropes.

ION;
It's Christmas Time! Which means in the next week or so I'm about to get a Christmas bonus (in addition to my usual pay) as well as the extra money I'm probably going to get from family. My next armies will be either Black Templars or Dark Angels.

Black Templars are all but confirmed as the next Codex, and with Phil Kelly writing it (also confirmed), I can continue my anti-Ward crusade (pun unintended) along with Space Wolves and Dark Eldar.

Dark Angels...Well, I've already got the Bike half, so the only thing left to do is the Terminator half which I've always wanted to do, unfortunately, Deathwing is one of the stronger builds in the current meta-game and there's already at least two Deathwing armies that I know of in my meta. Not including another two Draigowing armies that also exist.

So, yeah. What do people like better?

Black Templars

Spoiler

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Emperor's Champion - 110 Points
Abhor the Witch

Crusader Squad - 218 Points
x8 Initiates; Multi-Melta, Meltagun
x7 Neophytes

Crusader Squad - 202 Points
x7 Initiates; Multi-Melta, Meltagun
x7 Neophytes

Crusader Squad - 202 Points
x7 Initiates; Multi-Melta, Meltagun
x7 Neophytes

Land Speeder Typhoon - 70 Points
Land Speeder Typhoon - 70 Points

Predator Destructor - 128 Points
Lascannon Sponsons, Smoke Launchers

Predator Destructor - 125 Points
Lascannon Sponsons

Predator Destructor - 125 Points
Lascannon Sponsons

1250 Points

With Abhor the Witch, as well as Zeal, getting into Melta range should never be a problem. Although I am aware of the severe lack of Power Weapons/Fists in the list, it's just that 15 points for one attack doesn't really appeal to me. I'm also considering dropping a couple of Neophytes, but that's the main strength of Foot Templars.

Dark Angels

Spoiler

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Belial - 135 Points
Lightning Claws

Deathwing - 265 Points
Apothecary, Cyclone Missile Launcher

Deathwing - 235 Points
Cyclone Missile Launcher

Deathwing - 235 Points
Cyclone Missile Launcher

Ravenwing (x3) - 190 Points
x2 Meltaguns
+ Attack Bike; Multi-Melta

Ravenwing (x3) - 190 Points
x2 Meltaguns
+ Attack Bike; Multi-Melta

1250 Points

The Ravenwing are there because Scouting Teleport Homers are required.

Again, it's nothing I really haven't tried before, and I play against it often enough. But I really, really want to do a Terminator army, since Bricks appeal to me. My other choice is a Tyranid Warrior army, but they're bad and don't work anymore because the FAQ is retarded.

The other issue is that getting access to Cyclone Missile Launchers while buying Assault Terminators is a PitA. Maybe I'll convert some from the butt-tonne of Typhoon sprues I have from buying so many Dark Angel Battleforces.

[Hootman]

The absolutely insane part about AtW, DtW, is that it specifically includes 'Area of Effect' Powers and that's like...Amazing, since similar abilities (Aegis, Tomb Spyders) don't do that.

I honestly wasn't too sure what "Or includes them in it's AoE" meant. Would it mean that, if a Tervigon wanted to cast Catalyst on itself and I was within the 12" range (or whatever it is), then I could nullify it with the 5+ roll? That seems almost unfair...by which I mean, hilarious. Too bad it wouldn't work on Hammerhand or a Force Weapon (since the latter targets the weapon rather than the enemy, I believe).

9 + 8 = 17
9 + 7 = 16

I don't understand the significance of '18' - unless you're really bad at maths.

No idea where you're pulling this 18 thing. My list CLEARLY states 17 and 16 on it.

...Actually, the 18 was a hold-over from an earlier iteration of the list, where I was trying to balance points by removing Neophites.

That's some very nice shooting. Even moreso because of the two failed Invulnerables on the Zoanthropes.

My Cyclones were pretty incredible the whole game. It was sort of like playing with my Vanilla Devastators again, but Relentless and roughly indestructable.

Black Templars are all but confirmed as the next Codex, and with Phil Kelly writing it (also confirmed), I can continue my anti-Ward crusade (pun unintended) along with Space Wolves and Dark Eldar.

Now I'll be able to say I was playing Black Templars before they were the new flavor, but still get all the satisfaction of wielding a shiny new codex like the terrible cudgel that it is. As long as Mr. Kelly continues his high standards of codex-building, I will be most pleased.

That's an interesting list for Templars--way more vehicles than I had (seeing as I only used one, this isn't hard) at 500 points higher, but still looking quite solid and dangerous. I feel like you'd be better off with Powerswords and Flamers on the Crusader Squads, seeing how you already have so much anti-vehicle capability in your Landspeeders and Predators. The odds are pretty good that you could damage about 4 vehicles per turn already, but you don't really have any way to soften up huge mobs of enemies, and 3 Power attacks on the charge isn't bad at all. And conveniently, if you dropped the Smokes on the Predator, you'd have just enough points to make the swap to flamers and powerswords.....so I think I'm going to write this list down for my own test-playing some time this week.

As for the Dark Angels, just don't forget that the Attack Bikes are forced to be single-model units, and don't get to pal around with the regular bikers like they do in Vanilla Marines. And you can't Turbo-Scout, but it would be kind of unfair if you could anyways. By your mention of Assault Terminators, I assume you'll be equiping most (if not all) of your Terminators with TH/SS? When I gathered together my Terminators to use as heavy weapon platforms for my own BT's, I just sticky-tacked Hunter-Killer Missiles to their shoulder pauldrons to designate which ones had the Cyclones. They looked kind of lame though. However, on my To Do List is to convert my spare Whirlwind Missile Launcher pieces into functional Cyclones and mount them on my Terminators. I figure each rack can count as the whole thing despite official ones having two racks, so as many as four Cyclones could be made from one Whirlwind kit.

...It's sad that that seems to be the only really good use for the Whirlwind, aside from maybe converting it into an Exorcist.

[Winterwind]

I don't know exactly how much I'm going to spend, but I know it isn't going to be a ton. Here are things I've been thinking about;
Necron Overlord
Cryptek (s)
1-2 boxes of Immortals
A C'tan

Does anyone have any recommendations as far as priority there?

Of those? I'd say, Crypteks seem like the most immediately necessary addition.

However, buying Crypteks one by one would be rather expensive. Since the distinctive feature of Crypteks is them having just this single eye-lens face, rather than a regular Necron face, and since Eliminators have those exact same single eye faces, and since Eliminators come in Immortal boxes, what I'd suggest would be getting a box of Immortals, but rather than building them into Immortals, instead using the Eliminator heads and parts of the Immortal bodies as deemed useful, add some parts from those Warriors you already have, maybe green-stuff some cloaks for them, and voilà! you have a whole bunch of Crypteks, cheap.

[Cheesegear]

I honestly wasn't too sure what "Or includes them in it's AoE" meant. Would it mean that

It means that if your units would be affected by the power (i.e; Null Zone, Blood Lance, Jaws, etc.), then you can roll to nullify. Wheras Aegis and Tomb Spyders specifically need to be targeted with a Power, and thus Null Zone can't be nullified by a Spyder or by Aegis.

so I think I'm going to write this list down for my own test-playing some time this week.

Let me know how it goes. I plan to start bulk-buying on Boxing Day.

[Wraith]

I honestly wasn't too sure what "Or includes them in it's AoE" meant. Would it mean that, if a Tervigon wanted to cast Catalyst on itself and I was within the 12" range...

It means that if your units would be affected by the power (i.e; Null Zone, Blood Lance, Jaws, etc.), then you can roll to nullify. Wheras Aegis and Tomb Spyders specifically need to be targeted with a Power, and thus Null Zone can't be nullified by a Spyder or by Aegis.

So Catalyst, specifically, will not be countered because it is not effecting the Black Templars. It's one of those weird not-quite-explained-properly things where, although it's range is stated as a radius, it only effects the specific units within that space and not the space as a whole.

Which a Black Templar player might call 'a shame', but only if you want people to refuse to play against you.

Black Templars vs. Dark Angels

I don't play with them very much ($400 well spent, 2 years ago! ) but I have just enough experience with either to say that, if you want to play a Terminator-based list, play Grey Knights and use the Grand Masters to make them Scoring.
It's not just a matter of the Codex' raw 'power', but they have so much more going for them that they're far more enjoyable to play, as well as allowing for far more variation down the line. You'll probably win just as many games (if not, more) but have more fun doing it.

I know they're not quite the same thing as Deathwing, but in terms of investing in an army that you'll enjoy playing more often, Deathwing are pretty much one-trick ponies that - and I apologise if I'm making an unwarrented assumption - are easy to get bored of. I think it'd be worth the sacrifice.

Having said that, I'm kinda biased in favour of Black Templars anyway as they've now become my primary army at 2000pts (sucks to be you, Farseer Blow-Your-Own-Head-Off-In-The-Second-Turn-For-3-Games-Running!) but either way, I fully support anything that stops people from playing more-sodding-Blood Angels....

[Tome]

I don't play with them very much ($400 well spent, 2 years ago! ) but I have just enough experience with either to say that, if you want to play a Terminator-based list, play Grey Knights and use the Grand Masters to make them Scoring.

Minor correction there, GK Terminators are scoring by default. No need for a Grand Master.

And yes, they are fun to play.

That said, I'm pretty sure Cheesegear isn't that interested in running GKs, and you can, to my knowledge, run plenty of Terminators in a Black Templars list if you really want to, so I'd recommend the Templars. It's probably more his sort of thing from what I've observed.

[Provengreil]

But, yeah, in your meta-game where psykers aren't the norm (wtf )

Not as odd as you may think. psykers are good, but only like half the people in my usual store make any use of them at all, and it's far from constant. the others are paranoid of bad rolls and will never, ever field psykers or plasma because they think it'll kill them more than their opponents. our biggest psychic power users are nids, because of feel no pain hive tyrants and zoanthropes, and grey knights because...well, grey knights. Most other players use them in maybe half their matches, tops, not counting tournament play where casual lists don't hold up.

Minor correction there, GK Terminators are scoring by default. No need for a Grand Master.

And yes, they are fun to play.

That said, I'm pretty sure Cheesegear isn't that interested in running GKs, and you can, to my knowledge, run plenty of Terminators in a Black Templars list if you really want to, so I'd recommend the Templars. It's probably more his sort of thing from what I've observed.

Don't the wolves also have a way to do this?

[Teln]

Don't the wolves also have a way to do this?

Yes we do: Buy Logan Grimnar to change Wolf Guard from Elites into Troops, then buy all your Wolf Guard Terminator armor. The internet has dubbed this "Loganwing".

[Wraith]

Minor correction there, GK Terminators are scoring by default. No need for a Grand Master.

Paladin. I was thinking of Paladin. But what you said, just makes it a better idea.

You can, to my knowledge, run plenty of Terminators in a Black Templars list if you really want to, so I'd recommend the Templars.

Unfortunately, you can't run BT Terminators exclusively, and they can't be made into Troops, which I think is what Cheesegear had in mind. At the very least, it's spoiled by the Emperor's Champion who you must take and yet simply cannot be given Terminator armour!

Don't the wolves also have a way to do this?

Yes, provided that you are allowed to use Special Characters in your metagame (I've heard enough accounts from other players to know that some places, for good or ill, don't like you taking them), but Grey Knights undoubtedly do it better.

[Winterwind]

I have to point out though that, for all the unique and impressive qualities of Grey Knight Termies, Hammernators are probably still superior to them more often than not.

Space Wolves Wolf Guard can be built as Hammernators (or with a different weapon, but keeping the crucial part, the stormshield), but they are more expensive than Grey Knight Termies, Deathwing or Codex Space Marines Hammernators then.

[Ricky S]

Not as odd as you may think. psykers are good, but only like half the people in my usual store make any use of them at all, and it's far from constant. the others are paranoid of bad rolls and will never, ever field psykers or plasma because they think it'll kill them more than their opponents.

I use a psyker most of the time in my blood angels army simply because of their psychic hood. It is invaluable being able to stop enemy psychic powers. The psychic powers are useful but less valuable than the psychic hood especially when playing against high psyker armies.

I dont see how anyone could mind the 1/6 chance of getting an overheat when plasma is just so powerful, especially when the users are wearing power armour. Its another reason why plaser backs are so good. No overheat.

[Timberwolf]

I use a psyker most of the time in my blood angels army simply because of their psychic hood. It is invaluable being able to stop enemy psychic powers. The psychic powers are useful but less valuable than the psychic hood especially when playing against high psyker armies.

I dont see how anyone could mind the 1/6 chance of getting an overheat when plasma is just so powerful, especially when the users are wearing power armour. Its another reason why plaser backs are so good. No overheat.

I only really use a Librarian, BA Captains are substandard and I do feel the need for Psychic defence, the ability to give my gunships some form of cover save when I don't move them fast and the capacity to swing a S10 tinopener far outstrips what a Chaplain will do for me.

As to plasma, I use it but I like having a Sanguinary priest to hand (but who doesn't ?) for when things do go spectacularly wrong, which they do so often for me.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Yes we do: Buy Logan Grimnar to change Wolf Guard from Elites into Troops, then buy all your Wolf Guard Terminator armor. The internet has dubbed this "Loganwing".

Logan's Heroes is still the superior term.

[Hootman]

It means that if your units would be affected by the power (i.e; Null Zone, Blood Lance, Jaws, etc.), then you can roll to nullify. Wheras Aegis and Tomb Spyders specifically need to be targeted with a Power, and thus Null Zone can't be nullified by a Spyder or by Aegis.

Oh, that IS useful...or would be, if my meta contained Space Marine players other than myself.

Let me know how it goes. I plan to start bulk-buying on Boxing Day.

Unfortunately, I realized two flaws in my cunning plan after I got to one of my LGS's today.

1) I only have one Land Speeder, and even then I'd forgotten to pack it like a dope.
2) Apparently no one plays 40k there on Mondays. The place was dead until about a half-hour before I left, and all of those people were gearing up for Magic.

On the bright side, now that I'm home and have access to my glorious stock of cardboard, glue, bits, and knives, I can MAKE a Land Speeder to test the list with in the near future. I think I'll probably go painting at the closer store tomorrow, and see if I can't happen upon a game by sheer luck. And if not, some of my IG will end up painted, so it's a pretty good deal either way.

Speaking of things I've made recently, I posted this in the Models thread...

ARRIGHT YEW GROTS, LISSEN UP! DA BIG MEK'S GOT A NEW KILLA-KAN BUILT, AND 'E NEEDZ A VOL...A VOLU...SOMEONE TA DRIVE IT!

I'll leave the image and explanation over there, but bring the tactical question here:

A Grotzooka is considered the best weapon to put on a Killa-Kan, correct? And since my model can easily double as a Grot Tank Kommanda (Hooray for Imperial Armor 8), what would you suggest I add as the second weapon? The Big Shoota gives me the range for a few plinks on Turn 1, but is otherwise somewhat useless. A Skorcha could be used if something gets too close for comfort (since Tanks can't get locked in combat, and firing S6 templates roughly on top of a pack of AV 10 vehicles isn't a great idea). I have a hard time imagining the other options being useful, because it would mean not firing the Grotzooka, and most likely missing for my trouble.

And since I'm dealing with Tank Squadrons, I have a pretty important question--Killa-Kans have the ability to take Grot Riggers, which can repair Immobilization on your own turn. In Squadrons, Immobilized = Destroyed. There's no way that the Riggers can fix a Destroyed-by-Immobilization result, is there? That would be pretty cool, but I fear it's merely an idle dream.

[Cheesegear]

Yes we do: Buy Logan Grimnar to change Wolf Guard from Elites into Troops, then buy all your Wolf Guard Terminator armor. The internet has dubbed this "Loganwing".

Yes, provided that you are allowed to use Special Characters in your metagame (I've heard enough accounts from other players to know that some places, for good or ill, don't like you taking them), but Grey Knights undoubtedly do it better.

Either army, both Loganwing and Draigowing, are inferior to actual Deathwing. I'll explain;

If people haven't been following, I've been play-testing Grey Knights recently. And, while I do like them, Terminators/Paladins are not suited to my playstyle. Or, rather, not what I use Terminators for.

Without Draigo, it's normally unwise to take more than one unit of Paladins, because Grand Strategy has the ability to not do anything much and only makes one unit Scoring, and, without Draigo, Terminators are Scoring in the first place, and generally Strike Squads are just better because they're cheaper, have roughly the same damage output and Warp Quake is only just this side of broken.

With Draigo, he's 275 Points to start, and Paladins get more expensive from there. The majority of my games are in the 1250-1750 mark, and I can count the number of 2000< point games I've had this year on one hand. So, Draigo is too expensive to play.

Logan isn't much better. Before the Dark Angels FAQ was re-done, Logan was great. Then the Dark Angels were re-done and 'Loganwing' was reduced to gimmicky/exploitative 5-man squads with one model in Terminator Armour with Cyclone.

Belial - 135 Points
Logan - 275 Points

Strictly speaking, yes, Logan is more killy than Belial. But 140 points more killy? Not really. Eternal Warrior is actually pretty good though.

Deathwing (x5) - 235 Points
TH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher
[x1/2 Lightning Claws to suit]

The 'best' non-exploit WG Terminator squad is;

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5) - 275 Points
x3 Wolf Claw [Storm Bolters]
x1 Power Fist [Storm Bolter]
x1 Wolf Claw and Cyclone Missile Launcher [Storm Bolter]
+ Drop Pod

You can up the Power Fist count, but you also up the cost.
For 40 points more, you gain no Invulnerables and an extra Kill Point if it counts. You have more firepower for killing Infantry (which no-one should ever be lacking anyway, IMO), and less ability to deal with Walkers and MCs (which, from experience are the bane of WG Terminators).
Ultimately you can swap Logan in and the Cyclone out into a Long Fang squad - if you've got the points for that. Here's the equivalent Loganwing to my Deathwing up-thead.

Spoiler

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Logan - 275 Points

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5) - 275 Points
x3 Wolf Claw [Storm Bolters]
x1 Power Fist [Storm Bolter]
x1 Wolf Claw and Cyclone Missile Launcher [Storm Bolter]
+ Drop Pod

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5) - 275 Points
x3 Wolf Claw [Storm Bolters]
x1 Power Fist [Storm Bolter]
x1 Wolf Claw and Cyclone Missile Launcher [Storm Bolter]
+ Drop Pod

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5) - 275 Points
x3 Wolf Claw [Storm Bolters]
x1 Power Fist [Storm Bolter]
x1 Wolf Claw and Cyclone Missile Launcher [Storm Bolter]
+ Drop Pod

Longs Fangs (x6) - 140 Points
x5 Missile Launchers

1250 Points

Note the incredible lack of Invulnerables all-'round (eat Plasma/Melta!) and absolutely no Melta or Plasma to be seen.

[Ninjaman]

The 'best' non-exploit WG Terminator squad is;

Wolf Guard Terminators (x5) - 275 Points
x3 Wolf Claw [Storm Bolters]
x1 Power Fist [Storm Bolter]
x1 Wolf Claw and Cyclone Missile Launcher [Storm Bolter]
+ Drop Pod

No stormshield

[Cheesegear]

No stormshield

Not for 15 points each. It's not worth it. It might be alright for 2 on one unit of Terminators. But, for Loganwing, you're already strapped for points as it is, unless you start dropping models which also means losing the Cyclones which are required for the list.

[Provengreil]

I have to point out though that, for all the unique and impressive qualities of Grey Knight Termies, Hammernators are probably still superior to them more often than not.

Space Wolves Wolf Guard can be built as Hammernators (or with a different weapon, but keeping the crucial part, the stormshield), but they are more expensive than Grey Knight Termies, Deathwing or Codex Space Marines Hammernators then.

to be fair to the other armies, codex marine hammernators are simply underpriced.

I use a psyker most of the time in my blood angels army simply because of their psychic hood. It is invaluable being able to stop enemy psychic powers. The psychic powers are useful but less valuable than the psychic hood especially when playing against high psyker armies.

I dont see how anyone could mind the 1/6 chance of getting an overheat when plasma is just so powerful, especially when the users are wearing power armour. Its another reason why plaser backs are so good. No overheat.

I think the same way, I'll use plasma whenever I want. These guys are just so afraid of killing their own units they almost never take blast weaponry, let alone psykers and plasma. they still do well though, because storm shielded thunderwolves with musical wounds are incredibly hard to deal with at range and they tend to take out even my terminators or dreadnoughts in close combat.

[Cheesegear]

to be fair to the other armies, codex marine hammernators are simply underpriced.

I think they're priced perfectly. In a Codex that doesn't support them, they need to stay cheap otherwise no-one would ever take them. In Blood Angels, where they're still cheap enough to be take-able, nobody still takes them because Blood Angels don't need them at all.

Under Space Wolves, they're just too over-costed, especially since giving Wolf Guard Terminator Armour also inhibits their ability to take Combi-Weapons. Space Wolves are plenty good at Assault already, they need more shooting. What? Long Fangs can do everything on their own? Please.

Codex Marine Hammernators are pretty bad. They don't shoot, in a shooty Codex. And that's why they're cheap. That's why they need He'Stan to be any good (and a Dreadnought/Sternguard under He'Stan is still better).

[deuterio12]

Well I wasn't really planning on using said homebrew in a low level game anyway. I've actually found something I could use for space marine armor, that being the magitech templar, but was curious as to if there was any homebrew specifically put out as a conversion or could be easily refluffed like the aforementioned magitech templar.

Even if it may be a little late, I point you to Dungeon Crusade, that's a direct 40K conversion to D&D 3.5 rules.

Here's the ork supplement.

[Provengreil]

I think they're priced perfectly. In a Codex that doesn't support them, they need to stay cheap otherwise no-one would ever take them. In Blood Angels, where they're still cheap enough to be take-able, nobody still takes them because Blood Angels don't need them at all.

How do you figure that? a couple of HQ units, drop pods, and every sergeant you have access to can take teleport homers to bring the terminators in with no deep strike scatter wherever you deem you need them most. land raiders can transport them, and 14 armor is tough to crack absent melta, at which point you're in range for charging anyway. sure, both of these methods can get expensive, but that's the hidden cost of terminators i suppose, now that I type it. with hammernator saves, one round of shooting is unlikely to reduce them to ineffectiveness. also, He'stan is very nice but I would argue not a "useless without" level of necessary.

EDIT: also, as you covered why other armies are hesitant to use them, what WOULD you consider "good support" for assault terminators, If what I listed above wasn't enough?

[IthilanorStPete]

EDIT: also, as you covered why other armies are hesitant to use them, what WOULD you consider "good support" for assault terminators, If what I listed above wasn't enough?

A more aggressive army as a whole. Codex Marines tend to be too static, shooty, and reactive, allowing the opponent to bring fire (whether that be shooting or assaulting) to bear on the Hammernators. Compare to the general methods of, say, the Wolves, or the Dark Eldar, whose entire army can be int he opponents face very early. If you've got Grey Hunters dropping all over the opponent's units and tying them up, you would be able to more easily bring the hammer down, as it were.

[Wraith]

There's no way that the Riggers can fix a Destroyed-by-Immobilization result, is there? That would be pretty cool, but I fear it's merely an idle dream.

An idle dream, I'm afraid. Riggers only work if the model is still on the table, and Destroyed vehicles are removed from play immediately. Thus, they're not there at the start of your turn in order to have any effect. Nice thinking, though.

Or, rather, not what I use Terminators for.

Ah, I get it. It's not Terminators in general that you're wanting to play, it's Terminators with Thunderhammers and Stormshields specifically. That makes a whole lot of difference

Just for giggles, have you worked out an equivalent list with (combat-squadded?) Sword Brethren? Okay, so you'll need a token couple of units of Initiates (sadly - like Dark Angels - BT's can't take Drop Pods with Teleport Homers, but I'm sure there's plenty that one can do with 2 Meltaguns and a few ablative wounds....) but I think it could be amusing to see just for comparison.

Might even work it out for myself, actually. It sounds silly, but I've made a 40k 'career' based on Wraithguard-swarms and Space Marine Dread-Mobs - I'm good at silly!

[ZeltArruin]

An idle dream, I'm afraid. Riggers only work if the model is still on the table, and Destroyed vehicles are removed from play immediately. Thus, they're not there at the start of your turn in order to have any effect. Nice thinking, though.

Unless there is only one in the squad, right? Then it's not a vehicle squadron and does not suffer that rule.

[Wraith]

Well, yeah - then it's just Immobilised and Riggers works normally because it remains on the table to *be* fixed.

[Cheesegear]

every sergeant you have access to can take teleport homers

Bad.

and raiders can transport them

Bad.
Justifying a bad unit by taking more bad choices doesn't make it good. And I know you've already been told this.

[Ninjaman]

Justifying a bad unit by taking more bad choices doesn't make it good. And I know you've already been told this.

Just a wondering, is there an exeption to this?

[Renegade Paladin]

Bad.



Bad.
Justifying a bad unit by taking more bad choices doesn't make it good. And I know you've already been told this.

Your argument is circular. Hammernators are bad because Marines don't support them, except they do but supporting them is bad.

At any rate, they objectively aren't bad, because a unit of eight of them can destroy 1500 points worth of Guard, blobs, tanks and all.

[Wraith]

Your argument is circular. Hammernators are bad because Marines don't support them, except they do but supporting them is bad.

There is a sort of logic to this.

If Hammernators are a (comparatively) bad choice because they have a lot of deficiencies. You can, however, add other units to pick up the slack where they let themselves down. This seems like a good thing, right?

This is also a (comparatively) bad choice, because instead you could drop the Hammernators altogether, take another unit that is inherently good, and then the rest of your army doesn't have to support them and can focus more directly on fulfilling a more important role. Which is better.

[Renegade Paladin]

There is a sort of logic to this.

If Hammernators are a (comparatively) bad choice because they have a lot of deficiencies. You can, however, add other units to pick up the slack where they let themselves down. This seems like a good thing, right?

This is also a (comparatively) bad choice, because instead you could drop the Hammernators altogether, take another unit that is inherently good, and then the rest of your army doesn't have to support them and can focus more directly on fulfilling a more important role. Which is better.

I still see merit in supporting a ball of 2+/3++ death to everything that will not die no matter how many lascannons, battle cannons, demolisher cannons, multilasers, autocannons, plasma guns, and oh, so many lasguns are shot in its direction.