Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"

[Tome]

So, I tried my hand fiddling with IG again, because I'm a sucker for cool models and I found some Steel Legion on Ebay for fairly reasonable prices. There's enough time before the December Doubles Tourney that I can easily learn how to play with an IG list if I decide to use them instead of [Insert Flavor] Marines, so I would like the thread's opinion on the following list.

->SNIP<-

So, how is it? What would you suggest I change, given my limited point value? I don't really think I have the option (due to limited funding and availability) of putting together a Chimera-Box-Wall army, and IG don't use Rhinos, so I'm out of luck with using lots of vehicles. I may end up having to change my available model-count anyways based on what auctions I win, but I'm trying to get a good baseline to work from.

Really, this looks to be a decent Infantry Guard list. And Infantry Guard are very, very good by my understanding.

The big flaw in it is all those Flamers. You don't need that many flamers. You don't want them on your company command squad because if the enemy is in range to use them, then your command squad is dead next turn anyway. You don't want them on your Infantry Squads either, because they're all carrying Lascannons which want to stay still and shoot from as far away as possible. If you're shooting one, you're not using the other.

Which brings up another point. You might want to diversify your weapon loadouts a bit. Gear one platoon for being an infantry blob (and attach a Commissar with a Power Fist to one squad), have another ticked out with Lascannons and so on, instead of having every squad kitted out with Lascannons. If you can, sneaking in a chimera of Melta-vets or two might be a good idea.

Of course, I'm not a Guard player myself, nor do I know all that much about them (beyond how much I hate trying to outshoot them as Tau). You might want Cheesegear or someone's opinion for that.

[Renegade Paladin]

Gear one platoon for being an infantry blob (and attach a Commissar with a Power Fist to one squad)

Impossible. Commissars on infantry squads may not take power fists. There's no way to get a power fist in a blob without using independent characters.

[Tome]

Impossible. Commissars on infantry squads may not take power fists. There's no way to get a power fist in a blob without using independent characters.

Make that a Lord Comissar then I guess? I know that Power Fists are the thing you don't want to find hidden in infantry blobs, so it makes sense to stick one in there.

[Renegade Paladin]

Make that a Lord Comissar then I guess? I know that Power Fists are the thing you don't want to find hidden in infantry blobs, so it makes sense to stick one in there.

Cheaper to use a ministorum priest with an Eviscerator.

[Tome]

Cheaper to use a ministorum priest with an Eviscerator.

Lemme check my copy of the codex.

Lord Commissar with Power Fist is 85 points. A Priest with an Eviscerator and a Commissar in one of the squads (because you want the blob to be Stubborn) adds up to 95 points, but the Priest is 2 attacks at WS 3 versus the Lord Commissar's 3 attacks at WS 5. I think the Lord Commissar is better value, though the Priest does have Righteous Fury and the extra d6 penetration.

[Trixie]

Frankly, when you have blobs, even power weapons are too much sometimes. 4 PWs = another 10 bodies. The only things that give them pause are walkers, and barring FW drop pods, you don't play Guard to let any walker get close, cadet!

<ahem>

Etcetera here can tell how 30 man strong blob just ate Eldar assault unit, I believe, losing less than 1/3 of the men, and that after they outflanked next to them

[Etcetera]

Frankly, when you have blobs, even power weapons are too much sometimes. 4 PWs = another 10 bodies. The only things that give them pause are walkers, and barring FW drop pods, you don't play Guard to let any walker get close, cadet!

<ahem>

Etcetera here can tell how 30 man strong blob just ate Eldar assault unit, I believe, losing less than 1/3 of the men, and that after they outflanked next to them

In fairness, if I'd thought to put the autarch's attacks on the Commisar Lord I'd have broken through one of the squads and been able to swing round and double-flank the other with the jetbikes and the shining spears.

Clearly I need to use Mind War next time.

[Trixie]

Lord Commissar with Power Fist is 85 points. A Priest with an Eviscerator and a Commissar in one of the squads (because you want the blob to be Stubborn) adds up to 95 points, but the Priest is 2 attacks at WS 3 versus the Lord Commissar's 3 attacks at WS 5. I think the Lord Commissar is better value, though the Priest does have Righteous Fury and the extra d6 penetration.

LC, as outlined below, can die pointlessly, before he gets to do anything, especially if he is I1. Also, S6 power fist is nothing special, when at least 4 armies have S6-7 power weapons at I.

In fairness, if I'd thought to put the autarch's attacks on the Commisar Lord I'd have broken through one of the squads and been able to swing round and double-flank the other with the jetbikes and the shining spears.

Clearly I need to use Mind War next time.

Not sure if they were in contact, then...

Though, it's telling - literally first time you attacked one of my HQs directly and it was poor Commissar, not any of the two dozens of HQs I fielded. Just underscores how irritating these guys are

Also, that assault squad was eaten by 'regular' commissar, so targeting him wouldn't have worked then, anyway.

And you still didn't turned IM on :P

[Etcetera]

Also, that assault squad was eaten by 'regular' commissar, so targeting him wouldn't have worked then, anyway.

And you still didn't turned IM on :P

Yes dear, but I was referring to the squad that did have "Cain" in it.

And I haven't been on Steam because the computer that I was running it and Vassal on started making worrying "pop" noises, so I decided to leave it alone.

Oh, uh, 40k, right.

What would people recommend as a good 500 points for getting into Eldar (1 troops, no HQ). I'm thinking about 10 Avengers, 3 SL Warwalkers and 6 Scorpions, not least because of the ease with which they can be picked up off eBay. Thoughts?

[Renegade Paladin]

Frankly, when you have blobs, even power weapons are too much sometimes. 4 PWs = another 10 bodies.

Actually five. Guardsmen aren't that cheap. Unless you're talking conscripts, which is both a whole different kettle of fish and unable to join a blob.

[Hootman]

The big flaw in it is all those Flamers. You don't need that many flamers. You don't want them on your company command squad because if the enemy is in range to use them, then your command squad is dead next turn anyway.

Yeah, assault deterrent was what I was going for, more or less. And if anyone gets close without hitting me (for some reason...I didn't think that part through) I'd roast them. I should probably change those to something else now, though...

You might want to diversify your weapon loadouts a bit. Gear one platoon for being an infantry blob, have another ticked out with Lascannons and so on, instead of having every squad kitted out with Lascannons.

Yeah, that's not a terrible idea. Should I change them to have Missiles or Mortars (lolmortars), or just swap to Grenade Launchers in place of the flamers and call it a day? Or drop them entirely, and grab a unit of Ratlings or Storm Troopers or Marbo?

Unfortunately, my FO Slots are limited for the tournament I mentioned, and I can only have 1 HQ, 3 Troops, and up to two of any of the rest (max 5 units).

[Tehnar]

Ive played another game tonight (my Orks vs Blood Angels, my second game of 40K) and have a few tactical questions:

1) Keeping space marines in cover is useless unless your opponent has AP 3 or better shooting? You can make only one type save for each wound?

2) How to deal with Feel No Pain without powerklaws as Orks? Or are the Power Klawz the orky answer to everything?

3) Ive got a feeling that a nob + 11 boyz in a trukk is a good option, but there seem to be too few boyz left to attack. Is getting a bigger transport vehicle a better option? Or used mobs of 30 and footslog them around?

4) Stormoboyz seem good on paper, how do they hold up against trukk + boyz combination for effectivness?

[Shadow Lord]

Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?

Which Armies cost the least?

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, assault deterrent was what I was going for, more or less. And if anyone gets close without hitting me (for some reason...I didn't think that part through) I'd roast them.

It'll happen. In my game last night my opponent elected not to shoot at my blob so I couldn't remove models close to his paladins.

Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?

The one you'll use. Not to sound flippant, but there it is; there's no point getting the Dark Eldar battleforce if you want to play Blood Angels.

Edit:

Which Armies cost the least?

Not Guard. Probably Grey Knights or Space Wolves, at least for certain army builds; they can make a very high points force with very few models and have it still be viable.

[Ricky S]

Ive played another game tonight (my Orks vs Blood Angels, my second game of 40K) and have a few tactical questions:

1) Keeping space marines in cover is useless unless your opponent has AP 3 or better shooting? You can make only one type save for each wound?

2) How to deal with Feel No Pain without powerklaws as Orks? Or are the Power Klawz the orky answer to everything?

3) Ive got a feeling that a nob + 11 boyz in a trukk is a good option, but there seem to be too few boyz left to attack. Is getting a bigger transport vehicle a better option? Or used mobs of 30 and footslog them around?

4) Stormoboyz seem good on paper, how do they hold up against trukk + boyz combination for effectivness?

1. It is not useless as if an enemy assaults you without grenades then you get to attack first. Apart from that it is useless but at the same time what army doesn't have at least some ap2/ap1 gear.

2. Shock attack gun or that strength 8 cannon you can get on your vehicles. But basically powerclaws are the best option and the easiest. Every unit that can have a powerclaw should have a powerclaw.

3. Its either or. Either you take a fast boyz army all in trucks and swarm the enemy with armour and boyz in their deployment zone. They dont have a lot of bodies in their units but the idea is to shock and awe the enemy so you shouldn't need them. Or you take large units of boyz and have them run across the board all the while taking losses from the enemy. WAlking orks are very popular when they have a kan wall in front of them giving them a cover save and even more so when there is a big mek behind the kan wall giving the kans a cover save too.

4. They are fast but pretty fragile. They dont have the numbers to take casualties and they dont have the protection of a truck. If you do take them, take a single unit only and use them to hit enemy anti tank or something.

[gabado]

in the last thread, i mentioned that i was participating in a 500pt tournament next month, i want to play black templars, but i'm not set 100% on using the BT codex (over the SM codex that is). so here are a few list ideas:

Spoiler

Show

hq:
castellan 90pt
-power weapon
-storm bolter
-melta bombs

command squad 120pt
-terminator honors and power weapon (sergeant only)
-apothecary
-bolt pistols and ccw's

troop:
initiate squad A 145pt
-5 initiates, 5 neophytes (all with ccw's)
-heavy bolter
-melta gun

initiate squad B 145pt
-5 initiates, 5 neophytes (all with ccw's)
-heavy bolter
-melta gun

total: 500pt

Spoiler

Show

HQ:
castellan 80pt
-power weapon

Elite:
dreadnought 115pt
-assault cannon
-heavy flamer

Troop:
initiate squad A 90pt
-power weapon
initiate squad B 90pt
-power weapon

Heavy support:
vindicator 125pt

total: 500pt

my meta is composed of tyranid, ork and vanilla marine players. there is a tau player, and a grey knights player, but besides that everyone falls into one of the afore mentioned categories.

the first list is an anti-horde type list. the quintessential idea being that while you have twice as many guys as i do, i still have 15 power armor wearing, emperor's oath saying, pissed off dudes with power swords (and 10 scouts...)

the second list is very heavy hitting, with a vindicator and a dreadnought. my fear with this list is that it will be vulnerable to getting vehicle-destroyed results early on in the game.

as far as using the a different codex goes (due to the fact that black templars are underpowered, out dated, and overpriced), i don't feel that codex SM really goes well with the battle code of the black templars. i was thinking about maybe using the blood angels codex, but without any jump infantry models. that way i could have assaulting troop, without jump packs that is, that roll around in mechanized formations. well in any event, here's what i came up with:

Spoiler

Show

hq:
reclusiarch 130pt
troop:
5-man assault squad 125pt
-power weapon
-meltagun
razorback 60pt
-lasplas
-dozer blade

5-man assault squad 125pt
-power weapon
-meltagun
razorback 60pt
-lasplas
-dozer blade

total 500pt

feel free to yell at me about using the BA codex to represent BT, i don't like it myself it just seems to parallel BT play style more than the SM codex does.

[Cheesegear]

Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?

Which Armies cost the least?

There's a link in the OP.

Cheapest army; Not really certain. All the non-Space Marine armies are fairly expensive. And that's not because GW loves Space Marines (inb4crying). It's because points costs in other Codecies are lower which means you need more models.

Mechanising makes every army expensive.

[Ricky S]

Which Battleforce gives you the most bang for the buck?

Which Armies cost the least?

There are two uber cheap armies. Either play draigo wing. Which is the paladin army of greyknights or nipplewing which is the sanguinary guard army of the blood angels. Both only need around 20 models at 2000pts. They are not tournament grade armies but definately fun to play.

[Tome]

Yeah, assault deterrent was what I was going for, more or less. And if anyone gets close without hitting me (for some reason...I didn't think that part through) I'd roast them. I should probably change those to something else now, though...

Yeah, that's not a terrible idea. Should I change them to have Missiles or Mortars (lolmortars), or just swap to Grenade Launchers in place of the flamers and call it a day? Or drop them entirely, and grab a unit of Ratlings or Storm Troopers or Marbo?

Unfortunately, my FO Slots are limited for the tournament I mentioned, and I can only have 1 HQ, 3 Troops, and up to two of any of the rest (max 5 units).

I'd say, if you're that limited on FO choices, just stick with the Lascannons.

If you just drop the flamers you can afford another Infantry Squad with an Autocannon.

[Wraith]

There are two uber cheap armies. Either play draigo wing. Which is the paladin army of greyknights or nipplewing which is the sanguinary guard army of the blood angels. Both only need around 20 models at 2000pts. They are not tournament grade armies but definately fun to play.

Also applies to Deathwing - Like Draigowing, you just need 1 metal model (Belial) and then 20 plastic Terminators, which can be found reasonably cheaply.

Of the three, Deathwing is probably the cheapest to buy since you can use generic Terminators which are available in abundance on eBay and the likes, whereas the other two require specific (and fairly recent) models that aren't so easy to get hold of outside of a GW Store.

[TheNabster]

Play Necrons
Wait forever for a new codex because they are not really good for much apart from walk and shoot
Finally get new codex
Read contents
Squee

It has all the things I could have wanted from it and more. More special characters, more options for my army, cool new stuff. I approve of its contents

[banjo1985]

Ive played another game tonight (my Orks vs Blood Angels, my second game of 40K) and have a few tactical questions:

1) Keeping space marines in cover is useless unless your opponent has AP 3 or better shooting? You can make only one type save for each wound?

2) How to deal with Feel No Pain without powerklaws as Orks? Or are the Power Klawz the orky answer to everything?

3) Ive got a feeling that a nob + 11 boyz in a trukk is a good option, but there seem to be too few boyz left to attack. Is getting a bigger transport vehicle a better option? Or used mobs of 30 and footslog them around?

4) Stormoboyz seem good on paper, how do they hold up against trukk + boyz combination for effectivness?

Ricky answered all these well, but a couple of addendums from me:

1) You can only take one type of save for each wound, and obviously you take the best one you have available. There are caveats to this in Feel No Pain (you can take this after you've already failed a save, depending on the type of wound you received), and some army specific rules like Necron Reanimation Protocols.

3) There's the option of a Battlewagon (can carry 20) but its a waste on Boyz really. As Ricky said, bigger units of Boyz can footslog, but they need Force Fields, cover saves or the Ard Boyz upgrade to get them across the table. 12 Boyz and a Nob with a Klaw are usually enough to see off most non-Assault units on the charge, so I tend to go with lots of smaller Boyz units. For large opponent units or tougher assaulty stuff, just assault with multiple units on the same turn.

4) Honestly, in my experience Stormboyz are hopeless, which is a shame because the models are great. Boss Zagstrukk makes them slightly less awful, purely because you can guarantee to get them into Assault before they get shot, and his Power Klaw equivalent hits at I4 on the charge. If you want to use them, take a unit of 10-ish with Zagstrukk and Deepstrike them into assault with a back-field shooty unit that's causing you trouble. They should have enough to kill it, but then they'll be shot to pieces. Deffkoptas and Buggies are much better FA choices though, so you may just be better off going for them. Or just use Stormboyz because the models are awesome, there's no harm in that outside of a tournament. Just don't expect them to do much.

[The Glyphstone]

Play Necrons
Wait forever for a new codex because they are not really good for much apart from walk and shoot
Finally get new codex
Read contents
Squee

It has all the things I could have wanted from it and more. More special characters, more options for my army, cool new stuff. I approve of its contents

Indeed. It just occurred to me last night that Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics doesn't specify friendly infantry units. Hello there, Stealthed Monolith!

[TheNabster]

Indeed. It just occurred to me last night that Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics doesn't specify friendly infantry units. Hello there, Stealthed Monolith!

Wait what

*Rereads*

Sweeeeeet.

Part of me wants to take Nemesor Zahndrekh without Vanguard Obyron in an army, so I can take another special character like Trazyn, or just a vanilla Overlord. But its just like Creed and Jarren Kell, you can't really field one without the other. I mean you can do it, but it doesn't feel right, and they compliment each other so well anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

Though I picked a bad example there - I thought Stealth applied Night Fighting rules, not just +1 to Cover saves. It's gonna be hard to get a Monolith into cover where it gets a save.

A say, Tank Hunting Doom Scythe or Doomsday Ark's not bad though. Or just a Stealthed Hull-Down Doomsday Ark blowing the crap out of enemy formations with its 3+ cover save.

[Shadow Lord]

Alright, Necrons or Dark Eldar? Which one should I go for?

[hamishspence]

Sweeeeeet.

Part of me wants to take Nemesor Zahndrekh without Vanguard Obyron in an army, so I can take another special character like Trazyn, or just a vanilla Overlord. But its just like Creed and Jarren Kell, you can't really field one without the other. I mean you can do it, but it doesn't feel right, and they compliment each other so well anyway.

If you have the points to spare, you can take Zahndrekh, Obyron, and another HQ- since Obyron takes up no HQ slots if the army also includes Zahndrekh.

[Cheesegear]

Alright, Necrons or Dark Eldar? Which one should I go for?

Aren't you looking for cheap? 'Cause Dark Eldar ain't it. You need boats. And that's not cheap.

Necrons? Well, I don't like them. And, certainly at this point in time you're not going to be a unique snowflake for getting them. But there's no real reason not to get them. Although it's certainly seeming that vehicles, too, are invaluable in a Necron army. And so that means 'not cheap' either. If you had gone for Necrons, say...Three months ago, they would've been the cheapest army around and you would have a leg up by now...But, time's change.

[lord_khaine]

Indeed. It just occurred to me last night that Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics doesn't specify friendly infantry units. Hello there, Stealthed Monolith!

Or better yet, as i recall they have a couple of units that can turbo boost, after a aplication of stealth that would turn into a 2+ cover save (not 100% certain on this one though)

And yeah, tank hunting Doom scythes are going to be hilarious against tightly packed mech units.

Another option i were considering though, is furiously charging scarabs, that would suddenly result in 50 attacks at S4 and I3, something that might very well kill a lot of normal assult units.

[Borgh]

Wait what

*Rereads*

Sweeeeeet.

Part of me wants to take Nemesor Zahndrekh without Vanguard Obyron in an army, so I can take another special character like Trazyn, each other so well anyway.

you can take three characters if you like, the Zahny+Obyron combo only takes up one hq slot (page 88, Obyrons entry)