Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[Starwulf]

The funny thing is that a lot of men believe it too. If I had ten euros for every man I've have to basically reassure that not being attracted to everything is not bad, is not a diminishment of his masculinity, and it doesn't make him weird... I'd probably have like half of the price of that PS3 I want to buy saved already. Most guys will act as if they'd hit everything even if they wouldn't, because hell, that's what guys are supposed to do, right?

Only if they are very insecure in who they are.

I personally hate the stereotype that all men are horndogs, and that all men(or most) would "tap" anything that moves >< I'm a guy, I dated about 25 or 30 different girls before I got married, and slept with 4 of them, 1 of whom I was engaged to, another whom I was very close to(ie: considered a potential lifemate). I have never just looked at random females and went "yeah, I'd tap that". I wouldn't "tap" anything that moves, and I find the entire stereotype highly offensive ><

[Form]

@Form: Sucks, man. How well do you know her? If she's a friend, you should bring it up. Every proposition deserves an answer, even if the answer is a "**** no!".

We've known each other for quite a while now, but we're not that close. I do consider is friends, albeit not close friends. I'm not exactly the only suitor either, but competition is normal. In a way, no response is response of its own and I did tell myself in advance that I shouldn't expect anything to come from it.

I guess I'm also still a bit worried about coming of as pushy and embarassing myself. I don't think it matters much whether I bring it up or not. It'd be nice to know whether she appreciated the gesture or not, but it's not necessary. If she didn't, then *shrug* and if she did, then that's enough.

Anyway, I shouldn't worry about it.

[John Cribati]

1. If this person subscribed to that belief, why would she ask and why would she be friends with him?
2. This belief system you're discussing sounds more like it's expecting justification based on physical things rather than justification based upon feelings. Which is what I was getting at in the first place.

1: I never claimed to be an expert on human socialization, much less whatever goes on in the mind of a woman (because women think differently enough from men to cause some sort of rift, however slight it is), so I can't answer as to why she would ask, but why would him wanting to sex her up warrant them no longer applicable for friendship?
2: Well, based on what the *ahem* stood for in Marillion's post, that could very well be the case.

[arguskos]

Well, I aimed, fired off a question, and got smashed in. C'est la vie.

At least you guys won't light me on fire though, so that's good.

[Coidzor]

^: Give us time, I'm sure we'll think of some totally awesome flaming stunts for you to do.

why would him wanting to sex her up warrant them no longer applicable for friendship?

Where did you get that from what I said? I was contending that if she actually views him as a friend, it makes a lot more sense for her to not to view him in such a negative, manhating light, which would mean that there should have been some synapses firing other than the ones that correspond to "oh, another lie," when he went with feelings rather than physicality.

2: Well, based on what the *ahem* stood for in Marillion's post, that could very well be the case.

If *ahem* doesn't stand for sex of one sort or another, then Marilion has some explaining to do. So I'm not seeing how something along the lines of uttering 'Of course I'd have sex with you, I like you,' is a physicality-based explanation without some serious misinterpretation.

[John Cribati]

Where did you get that from what I said? I was contending that if she actually views him as a friend, it makes a lot more sense for her to not to view him in such a negative, manhating light, which would mean that there should have been some synapses firing other than the ones that correspond to "oh, another lie," when he went with feelings rather than physicality.

Ah. I misunderstood; I thought you were talking about "why would she have be friends with him if he wanted to have sex with her."

In any case, many people don't see the belief as "man-hating." Nobody really condemns men for allegedly wanting to bone every woman walking or says it's a bad thing, they just figure that it's something men do, sort of like dogs sniffing each other.

If *ahem* doesn't stand for sex of one sort or another, then Marilion has some explaining to do.

Which sort she was talking about is the dependent variable I was referring to. "Which of my friends would you make love to?" is a different question from "which one of my friends would you f***?"

[Glass Mouse]

The stereotype about guys being horndogs has a little truth to it. Because, in our cultural perception, the male has a much higher chance of "enjoying" any given sexual encounter, casual sex has a much higher reward/risk function. If girls had the same high reward chance, then they'd be just as bad (check studies done with girls who like girls: they pretty much come right back to level with guys). So, basically, the lesson here is that we're ALL horndogs. And once we can accept that we're all horndogs, we can get past it and continue to live exactly as comfortably as we do now. Because if every other animal in the world can deal with it, I bet we can too.

Interesting. I actually thought guys were genetically programmed to be more sex-friendly (but maybe that programming comes out in the social structures surrounding reward/risk... or it's just BS science).

I wonder, what determines the reward/risk factor? Is it a simple matter of orgasms, or do social stigma, potential pregnancy, etc. factor in?

Also, links to those studies would be appreciated if you have them

1: I never claimed to be an expert on human socialization, much less whatever goes on in the mind of a woman (because women think differently enough from men to cause some sort of rift, however slight it is), so I can't answer as to why she would ask, but why would him wanting to sex her up warrant them no longer applicable for friendship?
2: Well, based on what the *ahem* stood for in Marillion's post, that could very well be the case.

*twitch*

People think differently.

People who have similar background (social, cultural, economical, biological, etc.) tend to think more alike than people with another background.

This means women tend to share some thoughts patterns in regards to questions relevant to the shared background - in this instance, how romantic endavours are understood and handled.

This does not mean that all women share a secret code, or all women think differently from all men. I wish we did (it would've saved me many troubles in my life), but alas.
There are some overarching factors that tend to have affected all women - weaker physique, more group-oriented approach, etc. - but they're general tendencies, useful to remember, and dangerous to apply as hard rules.

You're much safer off assuming that this particular women differs from your thought patterns as much as any individual, unless you know her extremely well and have a great understanding of a wide variety of factors and how they affect worldview and priorities (and really... are any of us that smart?).

Sorry if I come across strong, but statements like this just rub me the wrong way. I hate it when guys assume there's some strange rift between us, just because I've got girl bits.

Well, I aimed, fired off a question, and got smashed in. C'est la vie.

At least you guys won't light me on fire though, so that's good.

Good job on doing it! Sorry it didn't work out. Did you only ask C?

[rogueboy]

Well, I aimed, fired off a question, and got smashed in. C'est la vie.

At least you guys won't light me on fire though, so that's good.

At least I don't have to come up with any punishments for you! Yet?

Similar to Mouse's question: did you ask both, or do you now have until Tuesday afternoon (I'll be nice) before I need to come up with a punishment for you?

[Coidzor]

In any case, many people don't see the belief as "man-hating." Nobody really condemns men for allegedly wanting to bone every woman walking or says it's a bad thing, they just figure that it's something men do, sort of like dogs sniffing each other.

So what? There's plenty of misogynists who don't see themselves as such despite clearly believing misogynistic things.

Though, I must admit, I've only ever seen anyone bring that kind of "men are animals" as either A. a condemnation by misandrists (or something that's ultimately derived from such and has been filtered down a bit) or B. a defense of rape culture and victim blaming by old men or something similarly filtered down through various people but ultimately derived from that.

Which sort she was talking about is the dependent variable I was referring to. "Which of my friends would you make love to?" is a different question from "which one of my friends would you f***?"

I'm still not seeing the logic in dismissing an explanation from feelings even if a vulgar word was used rather than a lovey-dovey intimate one. I can't really speak to the rest of you, but I've encountered that particular vulgar term for sex in a lot of different lights and ways of being used, but none of them would really invalidate the explanation that the reason for wanting to do so was derived from feelings.

Sure, there's a lot better ways it could have been phrased and a lot of far worse things that could have been said instead, but "because I like you" is still rather incongruous with the puerile and negative interpretations of such a question.

[Serpentine]

Interesting. I actually thought guys were genetically programmed to be more sex-friendly (but maybe that programming comes out in the social structures surrounding reward/risk... or it's just BS science).

I wonder, what determines the reward/risk factor? Is it a simple matter of orgasms, or do social stigma, potential pregnancy, etc. factor in?

There is almost certainly a biological factor. Gametes alone contribute to it: males have many cheap gametes, females have a few expensive ones; moreover, breeding is extremely risky for females - aside from the possible direct complications, health impacts and shortened life expectancy caused by pregnancy, there's the fact that it makes them big and heavy and unable to run away from enemies, and requires a lot of resources. Males... don't really have that (although the trade-off is that they can't be any more sure that offspring is theirs than they are sure their mate is faithful).
Thus, it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint that females will be pickier about their choice of mates than males, and males more likely to seek to do more of it.
Moreover (and I may be mistaken about this), I believe testosterone has been demonstrated to increase libido.

HOWEVER. I believe that, without all our social and philosophical baggage around sex* and sex^, the gap between male and female libido (as a whole) would be far narrower than perceived now. We take the observation "males tend to have higher libidos than females", and turn that into "males SHOULD have high libidos, and females SHOULD have low libidos, and there's something wrong with anyone who doesn't adhere to that", and so exaggerate the effect.
More education on helping women "enjoy" sex more couldn't hurt, either.

*intercourse
^bits

[Heliomance]

Bah. I'm feeling chronically single. Not because I can't get a girl - if I tried, I probably could - but because all the girls I can see myself being interested in pursuing romance with are already taken.

Every single time. I get to know a new girl, get on really well with her, some flirting starts up, when oops! I discover she already has a boyfriend. So irritating.

[John Cribati]

Bah. I'm feeling chronically single. Not because I can't get a girl - if I tried, I probably could - but because all the girls I can see myself being interested in pursuing romance with are already taken.

Every single time. I get to know a new girl, get on really well with her, some flirting starts up, when oops! I discover she already has a boyfriend. So irritating.

How many of said boyfriends do you think you can take in a fight?

[Coidzor]

Alternatively, shake things up in how you're meeting people.

[arguskos]

Good job on doing it! Sorry it didn't work out. Did you only ask C?

Only C. Haven't seen H in a few days (been busy, haven't had lunch with the gang yet).

At least I don't have to come up with any punishments for you! Yet?

No promises. Besides, I probably deserve something at some point here.

Similar to Mouse's question: did you ask both, or do you now have until Tuesday afternoon (I'll be nice) before I need to come up with a punishment for you?

Apparently, I have until Tuesday.

[Mindfreak]

So...

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A bit over two weeks ago, I told my best friend(who's been my friend since 8th grade and I'm currently in 10th) that I've had a crush on him since I've met him. And all he said was: okay. That's all he said was an emotionless "okay". And I left it at that. And then a couple day later one of the people who I consider to be my best female friend told someone about the advice I had asked her before(regarding if she thought a couple people were into me). The person she told then confronted me in the study hall we shared and she called me desperate and when I replied that I wasn't desperate she said everything that I had asked for advice for outloud an everyone in the study hall was staring and a couple of them laughed...
I left school early that day and haven't been back since because I stayed home for two days and then I've had this week of vacation.
Both girls have apologized, but I still feel scared of going back to school. I don't know if I can trust my best female friend anymore and I'm angry at my best friend for...blowing me off with his reply.
I have no idea what to do, and I don't know if this is the right place to ask advice for this situation...

[Coidzor]

Mindfreak:

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Well, there's a plausible out for the one girl, considering that the explanation given for it leaking to the other girl was that you decided to ask your questions during a study hall, a time when gossip-mongers and other assorted types are known to have their ears open for anything juicy.

So I'd give it a few days and then exert caution in where and when you have conversations that you don't want to get eavesdropped in on. I suppose at that point you might let slip a bit of a noticeable lie in order to see if it'll spread and come back to you, but I wouldn't recommend that strategy in general and have no idea how to formulate one that would be easily recognizable and serve the purpose.

For your own well-being though, I'd recommend giving her the benefit of at least some doubt.

As for your friend that you're crushing on, well, it sounds like he doesn't really reciprocate, though, really, there's a whole number of factors that could be at play here. The key to watch for here is how he treats you from this point forward. More thoughts and perspective on the matter and how to go about gauging where you stand and what if anything you can/should do could be rustled up here though, as they've experienced it all, pretty much.

[DeadManSleeping]

@Mindfreak: I know everything seems scary, and like nobody is on your side anymore, but honestly, you're fine. Your best friend can still be your friend, your female friend can apologize, and the other girl can get over it. Just treat everyone with respect, be proud of who you are and what you feel, and remember that any friend you lose from simply having a crush was never a friend at all.

[rogueboy]

Coid:

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I got the impression from Mindfreak hadn't chosen the study hall as a time to have that conversation; the other girl brought it up, and was probably inappropriate in her own approach of when, where, and how to bring it up.

Other than that minor quibble, I'd agree with both Coid and DMS: you'll be able to move on from that with both your best friend and your best female friend. Whether or not you want to bring up the feeling of betrayal (probably not using that word, of course) to your female friend is something you might consider, but that depends on a lot of things that I just don't know about how your friendship is. I know that for me, there are friends who I would have that conversation with (and have done so, on occasion), and others who I wouldn't bring that up with.

[Starwulf]

@Mindfreak: The question I'm wondering, is does your best friend have the same sexual orientation as you? I mean, I'd assume he does, since I can't imagine just randomly saying to someone(even if they are your best friend) that you have a crush on them, if they aren't interested in the sex that you are. If he's not though, there is a high probability, that even if he knew you were gay, that you just made him extremely uncomfortable by saying something like that to him, and he now just wants to avoid talking about it at all costs.

[Mindfreak]

Coidzor
I'm sorry I didn't say it before but I had been asking for the advice by texting her and when I flipped out that someone other than her knew she told me she told the girl without thinking...

And with my Best Friend...we haven't talked since that day. I've tried calling him a couple times and he never answers and he didn't come to D&D this week.

And I'm sure I'll be able to move on with the whole school thing guys. I guess I will just need to see how it goes on Monday...

EDIT: Star, I only told my friend because he told me the week before that he was 80% straight, 20% gay. So I decided that now was as good as time as any...

[Starwulf]

Coidzor
I'm sorry I didn't say it before but I had been asking for the advice by texting her and when I flipped out that someone other than her knew she told me she told the girl without thinking...

And with my Best Friend...we haven't talked since that day. I've tried calling him a couple times and he never answers and he didn't come to D&D this week.

And I'm sure I'll be able to move on with the whole school thing guys. I guess I will just need to see how it goes on Monday...

EDIT: Star, I only told my friend because he told me the week before that he was 80% straight, 20% gay. So I decided that now was as good as time as any...

Ouch. Yeah, I think you probably made him extremely uncomfortable by admitting that to him. The 80/20 remark was probably being a bit flippant, and most likely was more portraying his attitudes towards certain things that might be more perceived as feminine(and thus, I guess, gay), not his actual sexual orientation. My advice? Let the matter drop, and never, ever bring it up again, or you might end up damaging your friendship, as he will likely want to distance himself from you to prevent unwanted attention and/or flirtation.

[Grinner]

EDIT: Star, I only told my friend because he told me the week before that he was 80% straight, 20% gay. So I decided that now was as good as time as any...

If I may interject, I don't think he really meant it. How would he even gauge that objectively?

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Mindfreak]

I should have known it was something else, but with him saying he was fine with kissing other guys...I just had to take the chance.
I should have known it was more of my fault then his fault...

[dehro]

Only C. Haven't seen H in a few days (been busy, haven't had lunch with the gang yet).

ah..so you have a backup option.
well.. at least now you've got all your attention on one girl and can try and **** it up in entirely spectacular ways...
or, who knows..maybe H will turn out to be the right one

[Coidzor]

I should have known it was something else, but with him saying he was fine with kissing other guys...I just had to take the chance.
I should have known it was more of my fault then his fault...

Blame game? Not helping. Bad situations simply are from time to time.

[turkishproverb]

So...

Spoiler

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A bit over two weeks ago, I told my best friend(who's been my friend since 8th grade and I'm currently in 10th) that I've had a crush on him since I've met him. And all he said was: okay. That's all he said was an emotionless "okay". And I left it at that. And then a couple day later one of the people who I consider to be my best female friend told someone about the advice I had asked her before(regarding if she thought a couple people were into me). The person she told then confronted me in the study hall we shared and she called me desperate and when I replied that I wasn't desperate she said everything that I had asked for advice for outloud an everyone in the study hall was staring and a couple of them laughed...
I left school early that day and haven't been back since because I stayed home for two days and then I've had this week of vacation.
Both girls have apologized, but I still feel scared of going back to school. I don't know if I can trust my best female friend anymore and I'm angry at my best friend for...blowing me off with his reply.
I have no idea what to do, and I don't know if this is the right place to ask advice for this situation...

Your male friend might have been too surprised to say much of anything, or at least not known how to respond to that interest. The break might give him time to figure out how to respond.

Your female friend's were being jerks though. I'd probably spend Less time around them.

[Triscuitable]

So...

Spoiler

Show

A bit over two weeks ago, I told my best friend(who's been my friend since 8th grade and I'm currently in 10th) that I've had a crush on him since I've met him. And all he said was: okay. That's all he said was an emotionless "okay". And I left it at that. And then a couple day later one of the people who I consider to be my best female friend told someone about the advice I had asked her before(regarding if she thought a couple people were into me). The person she told then confronted me in the study hall we shared and she called me desperate and when I replied that I wasn't desperate she said everything that I had asked for advice for outloud an everyone in the study hall was staring and a couple of them laughed...
I left school early that day and haven't been back since because I stayed home for two days and then I've had this week of vacation.
Both girls have apologized, but I still feel scared of going back to school. I don't know if I can trust my best female friend anymore and I'm angry at my best friend for...blowing me off with his reply.
I have no idea what to do, and I don't know if this is the right place to ask advice for this situation...

Put yourself in your friend's shoes. He is your best friend. You are his best friend. You have no idea how awkward it is to be told by someone you're good friends with that you've secretly had a crush on them. He had two options: Fight, or flight. If he walked away, your feelings would have been hurt. If he combated it, he would lose a friend. If he thought about it, you'd lose faith in him as a trusted person. He gave his blank answer because he was either in shock, or he was seriously distressed by how to reply. Either way, you can't be hard on him for that.

[Mindfreak]

That'd make a little less sense if I had told you before that an emotionless: "Okay." has been his answer to everything since he started dating a girl who I really think isn't good for him at all. She's been turning little things into huge arguments because she wants out of the relationship. She gave him false hope that she might not be moving come summer and then the same day she talked all about how it's a sure thing that she'll be moving to my best female friend. And I can't help but get a sinking feeling that she's going to hurt him so much.
And I know I probably shouldn't have told him when he's still dating the girl but... :I
Geez...I'm a mess. I came here for advice on one thing an just keep adding and adding...

[turkishproverb]

So he's got his own concerns, plus the thing you hit him with. Just give him time. That's all that can really be done.

[Adumbration]

There is a chance that a few female friends of mine are going to set me up on a date with one of their friends. Or at least try to pair us off at a pseudo-roleplaying game night.

I'm not overly optimistic.