Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Ancalagon]

Actually, I doubt the goal to remove the disputed tag will succeed as people (like myself) think it is good that it is there.

Unless we get confirmed facts for this or that position from the comic, the reasonings for both ends of the scale are understandable. This has nothing to do with my point of view on this (I'd rather put it in 27+ and do not mind where he picked the 6ish levels between SoD and "now").

I am in one camp, but can understand the reasons for the other and it is not that I consider it to be 100% vs. 0% but like 80% vs. 20% and as such strongly vote for the disputed tag in this matter.
Even if everyone stopped promoting the 21-idea right now, we should still mark it as "really not proven" or "speculative" (which is called "disputed" at the moment).

So: as long as the proof-situation as it is, the tag should stay there and I'm not seeing the use of a campaign to remove it. "If in doubt, dispute it".
This stance has made me as annoyed as I was over the Qarr-issue when some people iron-wallish rejected to make it disputed.

[Once&FutureKing]

Actually, I doubt the goal to remove the disputed tag will succeed as people (like myself) think it is good that it is there.

Unless we get confirmed facts for this or that position from the comic, the reasonings for both ends of the scale are understandable. This has nothing to do with my point of view on this (I'd rather put it in 27+ and do not mind where he picked the 6ish levels between SoD and "now").

I am in one camp, but can understand the reasons for the other and it is not that I consider it to be 100% vs. 0% but like 80% vs. 20% and as such strongly vote for the disputed tag in this matter.
Even if everyone stopped promoting the 21-idea right now, we should still mark it as "really not proven" or "speculative" (which is called "disputed" at the moment).

So: as long as the proof-situation as it is, the tag should stay there and I'm not seeing the use of a campaign to remove it. "If in doubt, dispute it".
This stance has made me as annoyed as I was over the Qarr-issue when some people iron-wallish rejected to make it disputed.

You can dispute everything with this logic. Seriously Anglacon... why not dispute V being level 15 then? I speculate that his Stun spell was homebrewed.

It's the exact type of argument being advocated against Xykon being level 27...

[St Fan]

Ditto what Kish said. That Still (the feat which lets you cast spells while being grappled) doesn't let Sorcerers cast spells while being grappled is obscure (and IMHO, absurd. It just begs for a overruling house rule.)

I don't think we can use it as evidence as anything other than Xykon casting a 10th level spell.

There's a much simpler way for allowing Xykon to do that: the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature from PHB2. It comes in replacement for a familiar, and Xykon was never seen having a familiar, from the beginning in Start of Darkness till now. It would fit very well.

And there's also the Rapid Metamagic feat, also mentionned in the link.

[Ancalagon]

You can dispute everything with this logic. Seriously Anglacon... why not dispute V being level 15 then? I speculate that his Stun spell was homebrewed.

The magic word is "within reason". And I count the "Xykon cannot be level 27, he must be lower to be consistent with what we saw before the Darth Vaarsuvius Indicent" to be within reason.

Yes, your opinion might differ. But taking a statement from a discussion and exaggerate it to make it ridiculous is not something I'd consider a valid argument for or against something.

Provide an argument "within reason" that Vaarsuvius is level 15 and make this option at least probably on a significant level >5% or >10% and also able to survive a casual application of Occam's Razor and we (I cannot speak for others) can start talking.

There's a much simpler way for allowing Xykon to do that: the [...]

Note: Your link is/was broken. Also, I'm not sure if that is a legal source (so I did not fix it).

[Once&FutureKing]

he must be lower to be consistent with what we saw before the Darth Vaarsuvius Indicent

You mean what we didn't see, since the only evidence that actively negates it is Durkon's dispelling, which dispelled a spell we didn't even see Xykon cast, and are not even sure he has. That's not evidence, it's speculation.

The rest of "what we saw" is a narrative ("Xykon doesn't feel that strong") with no evidence one way or the other.

I speculate V has a homebrewed version of Stun that is a level 6 spell. Disprove it.

[Flame of Anor]

The ACF is called "Metamagic Specialist" and it would indeed fit. Shame it's noncore (though since the X v. V fight took place late in DStP that might not be as big a stumbling block).

I support putting this in the stat sheet.

[Chronos]

To put the debate about Xykon's level into perspective, we're currently listing Thog's Strength score as 14+. Now, I doubt that anyone here has the least suspicion that Thog's strength is actually as low as 14: For a power-attacking idiot half-orc barbarian to have a strength that low is just absurd. He's probably more like 22 or 24. But the only lower bound we actually have hard evidence for is 14, so that's what we list.

The same logic should apply to Xykon. Is he actually level 21? Probably not. But so long as there's a possible explanation for what we've seen that's consistent with level 21, we should list him as "21+".

And yes, we do know that Xykon knows Greater Invisibility. When a character in the comic says "Here is reliable intelligence on what Xykon's spell list is", and shows us the list, we pretty much have to accept that. We're not going to get much of anything that's more reliable than that.

[Psyren]

I support putting this in the stat sheet.

It's definitely a reasonable entry, but again, I have no evidence for it one way or the other. It just struck me as the kind of choice that would fit Xykon, while also explaining the grapple scene.


To the folks bickering over the disputed tag, isn't that the kind of thing that got this thread temp-banned in the first place?

[Wolfe]

I speculate V has a homebrewed version of Stun that is a level 6 spell. Disprove it.

{{scrubbed}}

I also am in the camp of "Xykon is 27+", but I support a "disputed" tag on in because, well, people dispute it (in good faith), so it should be reflected. Though the fact that it annoys you is a bonus. 8-P

Speaking of which: RMS & Kurald: We still would like objective, clear rules on what "disputed" means, otherwise it just won't work as flame retardant. What is currently in the FAQ is not enough ("two or three doesn't count" doesn't help unless you say what does count). Also, consensus was reached that the SRD (including epic feats) counts as core, please amend your "this is not core" line on Xykon's level summary in the FAQ to reflect said consensus, or tell us why not.

While on the not-core discussion, I also support adding the ACF thing for faster metamagic to Xykon's possible stat sheet, noting that this (unlike the SRD) is not considered core.

[ti'esar]

I'm not even trying to make a comeback against the rules right now. I'm not particularly invested in either side of this debate--in fact, as a matter of rules, I prefer the "Xykon is 27+" position.

But I'm frankly embarrassed to admit that because it puts me on the same side of the debate as you. Your behavior in this thread has actually driven me away from your position, for all I agree with the logic you espouse. Think about that for a moment before deciding on an attitude when you reply.

I believe I said this earlier, but I'd like to second it being said again. Once&FutureKing, you are doing yourself and your argument no favors here.

[Gilphon]

I would like to third the above position. I have no trouble believing that Xykon is 27+, but if, after over five pages of arguing, you refuse to even concede that it's arguable, then it shows an appalling lack of respect of others.

I'd also like to say that it's a truely terrible shame that Metamagic Specialist is non-core, since it seems to fit the bill quite nicely.

[Once&FutureKing]

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[Gilphon]

If you put it bluntly, yes.

The function of them is- or at least should be- to avoid flame wars, not to find absolute truth.

[Once&FutureKing]

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[Flame of Anor]

To the folks bickering over the disputed tag, isn't that the kind of thing that got this thread temp-banned in the first place?

Not exactly.

I'm cool with that then, as long as Oceanic just posts something in the FAQ to the following effect:
"in deciding whether to list something on a character's stat sheet, or whether to add a dispute tag, the key factor is how many people agree with you, not logical consistency, or argumentative merit".
That way people like me will know not to bother arguing about it, and will know how seriously to take the stat sheet.

Well, if it means you'll stop insulting people, it's a price I'd gladly pay.

[Math_Mage]

{{scrubbed}}

To put the debate about Xykon's level into perspective, we're currently listing Thog's Strength score as 14+. Now, I doubt that anyone here has the least suspicion that Thog's strength is actually as low as 14: For a power-attacking idiot half-orc barbarian to have a strength that low is just absurd. He's probably more like 22 or 24. But the only lower bound we actually have hard evidence for is 14, so that's what we list.

I'll be honest, I still think we can reliably up it to 17+, with a [disputed] tag if necessary. I can't see any way to cut the Roy+Thog arena fight below 14 rounds, which gives Thog either an absurd CON and even more absurd STR, or the Extend Rage feat and a CON modifier of +3 or better. Since STR is his best ability score, that makes his STR 17+.

(Also he may have Improved Unarmed Strike since Roy's unarmed attacks seem to have provoked an AoO here, but that's even more subjective.)

[Dark Matter]

Have you considered looking at the reason people are so reluctant to peg Xykon as 27+? Walking a step (never mind a whole mile) in their shoes? At the heart of it, it's not a rules issue. It's a narrative issue. Level 27+ Xykon has no business being as weak as he is for most of the story...

Wait, what? When was he ever shown to be "weak"? When he showboated and got thrown into an epic gate by Roy?

Put yourself in Xykon's shoes for the first battle. The entire plan was to get the order to open the gate. Other than that... he's bored and has EVERY reason to make some grand show out of it. He's 15 levels above the Order and there's NO chance that he'll get any experience. He cast magic missile for a while to burn actions, and was always more concerned about his villain speech then the OOTS.

After that what do we have? His murder of Roy? He didn't take that fight very seriously either btw. Him curb stomping the entire Sapphire Guard? His loss to the seriously epic ghost of Soon? From SOD we know that the creation of a gate requires two epic spellcasters... both of whom he killed.

The Order of the Scribble hits the radar as seriously epic. Ditto Xykon. Him losing to them (or vise versa) doesn't give us a handle on either him nor them.

Xykon is the big bad and the PCs are so far below him there's no point in bothering to remember their names.

IMHO that's what bugs people. The PCs are basically insects to him, and we like Roy and the others. Xykon wasn't built to be a "fair" or even "win-able" encounter, not now and not when the PCs get a few more levels of experience.

Narratively fighting him is fighting a desperate, hopeless battle. The PCs are Frodo up against Sauron.

[SaintRidley]

I mean seriously Oceanic? This is the sort of argument we're being told we didn't "adequately refute"? The "narrative" of the story, and not the rules?

Allow me to point something out to you.

This comic? The narrative is the important thing. Not the rules. Rich plays hard and fast with the rules, letting them slide when they become an obstacle to the greater narrative.

This thread? This thread is not the point. The comic serves the narrative first, rules second. This thread is merely supposed to be a fun attempt to contextualize the comic within the ruleset which inspired it. I repeat. A fun attempt.

You're being the stop having fun guy.

As someone who also prefers Xykon is 27+ (I floated the Sudden Maximize idea because I was honestly curious), I too find your attitude off-putting and a source of embarrassment for the side at large.

Please consider the purpose of this thread.

[Chronos]

I'll be honest, I still think we can reliably up it to 17+, with a [disputed] tag if necessary. I can't see any way to cut the Roy+Thog arena fight below 14 rounds, which gives Thog either an absurd CON and even more absurd STR, or the Extend Rage feat and a CON modifier of +3 or better. Since STR is his best ability score, that makes his STR 17+.

Even if we accept that (I'm not actually disputing it; I just don't want to go over the fight with a fine-toothed comb to confirm the rounds count), it's still the case that, for years, the most we could say about him was "13+". We aren't tracking "probably" in this thread; we're tracking the evidence.

[Flame of Anor]

Wait, what? When was he ever shown to be "weak"? When he showboated and got thrown into an epic gate by Roy?

Put yourself in Xykon's shoes for the first battle. The entire plan was to get the order to open the gate. Other than that... he's bored and has EVERY reason to make some grand show out of it. He's 15 levels above the Order and there's NO chance that he'll get any experience. He cast magic missile for a while to burn actions, and was always more concerned about his villain speech then the OOTS.

After that what do we have? His murder of Roy? He didn't take that fight very seriously either btw. Him curb stomping the entire Sapphire Guard? His loss to the seriously epic ghost of Soon? From SOD we know that the creation of a gate requires two epic spellcasters... both of whom he killed.

The Order of the Scribble hits the radar as seriously epic. Ditto Xykon. Him losing to them (or vise versa) doesn't give us a handle on either him nor them.

Xykon is the big bad and the PCs are so far below him there's no point in bothering to remember their names.

IMHO that's what bugs people. The PCs are basically insects to him, and we like Roy and the others. Xykon wasn't built to be a "fair" or even "win-able" encounter, not now and not when the PCs get a few more levels of experience.

Narratively fighting him is fighting a desperate, hopeless battle. The PCs are Frodo up against Sauron.

Very good points. This is one reason I discredit the "he didn't act like it" argument for 21+, along with its being very subjective.

[Once&FutureKing]

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[Gilphon]

If I may address the thread in general for a moment, I feel like it is time to point out that sometimes, the 'don't feed the troll' principle applies equally well if the person in question is not actually a troll.

[ti'esar]

{{scrubbed}}

[Flame of Anor]

He isn't? News to me.

Seriously, if I knew how to report someone to the mods, I would have done it by now. Once&FutureKing, you are holding this thread hostage with your hostility towards everyone who disagrees with you and most of those who don't. This is supposed to be fun.

I'm not sure he's quite hostile enough to be actually violating the rules, but it's this button:

[Once&FutureKing]

{{scrubbed}}

[Flame of Anor]

just be clear about the criteria

...

What annoys me is being given extremely patronising and stalling generalities as answers, and then acting like I missed their nuanced argument.

This much I do rather agree with, though I wouldn't agree with "extremely patronising".

[EmperorSarda]

There's a much simpler way for allowing Xykon to do that: the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature from PHB2. It comes in replacement for a familiar, and Xykon was never seen having a familiar, from the beginning in Start of Darkness till now. It would fit very well.

While it would fit Xykon nicely, I am in favor of not adding anything non-core until The Giant spells it out. Given that he has said that Thog has the Dungeon Crasher variant, has pointed out in comic that Tsukikio's orb spells are no canon along with other little things, I would rather not add that in. Again, it fits nicely, but given no direct evidence I'd rather it not be put up.

As far as this whole thing discussion about Xykon's level and the arguments for and against, we all need to chill I think. This is just an internet discussion. It means nothing.

[Idhan]

BTW, I realize that you've already admitted that there isn't evidence for this, but looking at Redcloak's statistics, I noticed:

"Str ~8 (no evidence, racial; ).
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial)."

This is based, I assume, on the idea that goblins have a -2 racial strength penalty and a +2 racial dexterity bonus.

I'm not sure that's actually the case. "-2 strength, +2 dexterity" is, in many ways, the "standard" adjustment for being small. OotS goblins are medium. Basically, if you took a standard 3.5 D&D goblin, and cast enlarge person on him, you'd get something resembling an OotS goblin. Its -2 strength, +2 dexterity, would be cancelled by a +2 size bonus to strength and a -2 size bonus to dexterity.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm glad to see that most people in this thread are willing to "agree to disagree" on something; it's a mature and constructive approach. It's really not the end of the world if people have divergent opinions about characters in a comic strip.

Aside from that, I don't think it's possible to pin down an objective definition for "dispute", "consensus", or related terms, nor do I see a benefit in trying. We're certainly not going to run this thread by Robert's Rules Of Order. Although I'm tempted to put a big red sign at the top that says "Warning: this thread may contain people that disagree with you".

Idhan - that's a very good point about Redcloak. We know that Rich isn't using the goblins from the MM, because MM goblins are small and OOTS goblins are not. So we have no way of knowing whether OOTS goblins have the same racial ability adjustments as MM goblins, and indeed if they were larger they would have more strength and less dex (D&D is very consistent about that). So I support removing Redcloak's lines for Str and Dex.

Just to throw some other topics out there, this comic indicates Hinjo wears heavy armor; and OOPC states that Elan's listen modifier is better than Francois's, which given Elan's wisdom penalty may indicate him having ranks in the skill. Also, Rich has stated on Kickstarter that he'll post several more comics this week, so keep an eye out for trivia!

[Wolfe]

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