Warhammer 40K Tabletop XV: "More People Should Be Punched In The Head."

[Shovah]

Don't have the GK codex with me right now, but I'm pretty sure you would need ten termies for the second hammer and psycannon.

No need for 10 for the second hammer, but yes for the psycannon.


Wraith, is there a reason you don't have more halberds in your terminator squad? As far as I can see, they're allowed to hold both a psycannon and a halberd (unlike strike squads), or are your psycannon models also equipped with halberds and just not listed as such?

(or am I wrong about psycannon-terminators being allowed a special melee weapon?)

[Renegade Paladin]

Well i was thinking about starting an Imperial guard army.
I was thinking what would be good to buy of as a start (i was looking through the archives to see if it said anything about this but i couldn't find it.
So what would be nice for a start? Money isn't that big a problem but i don't have infinite.

The Guard battleforce is a good bet, unlike with some other armies. For starters, it actually has an HQ. Get at least two, though. The problem with Guard is that the models are cheap in points, but no cheaper in currency, so you spend more money to get an army of a given points level than pretty much any other faction in the game. Two battleforce boxes give you an HQ, a sizable platoon to play with, and a veteran squad (or two, depending on how big you want the platoon) along with two Sentinels.

After that, what you get depends on the style you want to play. If you want infantry spam, load up on battleforces; they're a better deal by far than buying two infantry squads, a heavy weapon squad, and a command squad separately, and you get a Sentinel thrown in on the bargain. If you want tanks, buy tanks. Sadly, some of the best vehicles don't have models, but there's nothing wrong with the good old Russ battle tank. Basilisks are controversial because of the long minimum barrage range, but they don't have the "can't fire directly" clause that the siege mortars have, and models are actually made for them.

If you like rapid assault, Chimeras and Hellhounds (especially Hellhounds and their variants) are your friends. A Hellhound or Devil Dog is capable of tremendous damage in a short amount of time (a lesson my club has learned at cost, and now mine rarely survive past the second turn). Veterans with meltaguns in Chimeras are good for a lot of things, including objective rushing. An all-infantry Guard army tends to be fairly static, so you'll want something capable of moving around and scoring, and meltavets fit the bill.

[Wraith]

No need for 10 for the second hammer, but yes for the psycannon.

I do have my Codex to hand, and I can say: Correct

Wraith, is there a reason you don't have more halberds in your terminator squad? As far as I can see, they're allowed to hold both a psycannon and a halberd (unlike strike squads), or are your psycannon models also equipped with halberds and just not listed as such?

Three reasons.

One is the points limit. The list is currently at something like 2010pts, and my opponent very graciously allowed me to use it, rather than force me to comb through it to recount everything and delay us further. I also thought it polite to drop some obviously cheap upgrades from a powerful unit that could probably survive without them, since I expected the Strike Squads to have greater need of them.

The second is that I am trying to be very stringent about WYSIWYG for my Grey Knights, and I simply didn't have enough spare Terminators-with-Halberds to fill the gaps. I'm working on it, but I'm a pedant for the older metal models, and they're not easy to come by (especially since I keep breaking the ones I already have! )

And thirdly, I very rarely give 2 (or more) upgrades to a single non-HQ model in order to make life difficult for things like Vindicare Assassins, Gift of Chaos, Mind War and other uniquely targetting abilities that let my opponent choose who dies.
It might be false logic, but I long ago convinced myself not to have any one model be a more tempting target than another even though these things are rare (although having said that, the same opponent I played in this game has been heckling me with his Daemon list, which involves 5 MC's all with Gift of Chaos so as to get some use out of the 12 Chaos Spawn models that he has collected..... )

[Tychris1]

Angry telling of the fight between Grey Knights and a Lone Titan:

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So, yesterday for ****s and giggles me and another friend of mine at the local game store decided to do 1250 points worth of grey knights vs a heirophant bio titan. The amount of crap he was able to pump out never siezes to amaze me. Melta guns on melta guns, lascannon jokaero, inquisitorial henchmen with god knows what inside of chimeras, Comisariat (Or whatever) forcing me to reroll the sieze the initiative (Because why the hell not), and a stormraven with lascannons/meltas/perils of the warp missiles holding Draigo and 3 Daemonbane Paladins inside with Psykout Grenades. By turn 1 the Heirophant took 4 wounds, 2 from the PotW Missiles, 2 from chimeras/junk. Yet by turn two the beast laid dead upon going into close combat with Draigo and the Paladins. Psykout grenades meant they were going simal, daemonbane meant they were wounding on 3+'s and instant deathing (d3 wounds) and since Draigo was a independent character with eternal warrior it means I couldnt kill him with my heirophant either. One round of fighting ending with the titan having 7 wounds only to fail 1 invul save and taking 3 wounds from the opponet rolling a 5. You just KNOW an armies ridiculous when they can kill titans in 2 turns and pump out all that crap.

[Renegade Paladin]

They didn't kill a Titan in two turns. They killed an unsupported gargantuan creature. When they have force weapons. What did you think was going to happen?

[Tome]

Angry telling of the fight between Grey Knights and a Lone Titan:

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So, yesterday for ****s and giggles me and another friend of mine at the local game store decided to do 1250 points worth of grey knights vs a heirophant bio titan. The amount of crap he was able to pump out never siezes to amaze me. Melta guns on melta guns, lascannon jokaero, inquisitorial henchmen with god knows what inside of chimeras, Comisariat (Or whatever) forcing me to reroll the sieze the initiative (Because why the hell not), and a stormraven with lascannons/meltas/perils of the warp missiles holding Draigo and 3 Daemonbane Paladins inside with Psykout Grenades. By turn 1 the Heirophant took 4 wounds, 2 from the PotW Missiles, 2 from chimeras/junk. Yet by turn two the beast laid dead upon going into close combat with Draigo and the Paladins. Psykout grenades meant they were going simal, daemonbane meant they were wounding on 3+'s and instant deathing (d3 wounds) and since Draigo was a independent character with eternal warrior it means I couldnt kill him with my heirophant either. One round of fighting ending with the titan having 7 wounds only to fail 1 invul save and taking 3 wounds from the opponet rolling a 5. You just KNOW an armies ridiculous when they can kill titans in 2 turns and pump out all that crap.

It sounds to me like you just had a really bad matchup here, as well as some horrendously bad luck. GKs are really good at killing Psykers, which is the main reason for the bad matchup, so if you'd brought a Titan or other Superheavy they would have had a lot more trouble dealing with it.

Also, you did know that Daemonbane requires you to fail a Ld test, right? Because Hierophants are Ld 10 if I recall, and it can only ever inflict a single test per turn no matter how many wound you suffer.

[Squark]

So... equippingg my wolf scouts and grey hunters.

Grey Hunters x10 -200 pts
Mark of the Wulfen
Powerfist
2x Plasma guns

Grey Hunters x10 - 205 pts
Mark of the Wulfen
Powerfist
2x Meltaguns
Wolf Standard

Wolf Scouts x5 -115 pts
Close Combat weapon and Bolt pistols
Meltagun, Power weapon, mark of the wulfen
(I'm not sure about this setup. I'm spending an awful lot of points on only 5 models with a 4+ save)


(Codex is sitting in my mom's closet for another 9 days or so until we celebrate my birthday, so point costs of some things may be wrong, as I'm reconstructing them from memory)

So.. I need to dig up some meltaguns (Scout sprue doesn't have any either, does it. )

[Ricky S]

So... equippingg my wolf scouts and grey hunters.

Grey Hunters x10 -200 pts
Mark of the Wulfen
Powerfist
2x Plasma guns

Grey Hunters x10 - 205 pts
Mark of the Wulfen
Powerfist
2x Meltaguns
Wolf Standard

Wolf Scouts x5 -115 pts
Close Combat weapon and Bolt pistols
Meltagun, Power weapon, mark of the wulfen
(I'm not sure about this setup. I'm spending an awful lot of points on only 5 models with a 4+ save)


(Codex is sitting in my mom's closet for another 9 days or so until we celebrate my birthday, so point costs of some things may be wrong, as I'm reconstructing them from memory)

So.. I need to dig up some meltaguns (Scout sprue doesn't have any either, does it. )

115 points isnt really that much in the scheme of things. Also dont forget how useful being able to come in from the enemy board edge is. You want something which can threaten enemy armour so a meltagun is a great idea and mark of the wulfen and the power weapon will ensure you can kill units hiding in cover with ease.

Edit:
I played in a 70 000 points apocalypse game today for the worlds largest battle. I took 9 wolf lords on thunderwolves. It was pretty cool. They carved a path from my side of the board to the enemy's side in a very cinematic way. I only lost 2 in the entire game because for some reason people thought wolf lords werent worth shooting at. There were 6 super heavies including a tyranid bio titan. Over 1000 models.

There were two tables. One was a moon the other the planet. Those on the moon fought over control of a gun battery. The moon was over run by the forces of disorder on the second turn and they had almost completely destroyed the forces of order by the fourth turn with only about 10 marines left alive.

Planetside was pretty similar to the moon. The forces of disorder overan the defenders and by fourth turn the majority of the forces of order were destroyed.

[BoSheck]

So... equippingg my wolf scouts and grey hunters.

Grey Hunters x10 -200 pts
Mark of the Wulfen
Powerfist
2x Plasma guns

Grey Hunters x10 - 205 pts
Mark of the Wulfen
Powerfist
2x Meltaguns
Wolf Standard

Wolf Scouts x5 -115 pts
Close Combat weapon and Bolt pistols
Meltagun, Power weapon, mark of the wulfen
(I'm not sure about this setup. I'm spending an awful lot of points on only 5 models with a 4+ save)


(Codex is sitting in my mom's closet for another 9 days or so until we celebrate my birthday, so point costs of some things may be wrong, as I'm reconstructing them from memory)

So.. I need to dig up some meltaguns (Scout sprue doesn't have any either, does it. )

You're going to want more meltaguns.

Real quick: I find that 1x meltagun, 2x power weapons is fine for wolf scouts. MotW is acceptable, I'd say put it on your meltagun guy. I always put a combi-melta/pfist wolfguard with them. I find that with 2x melta shots, power weapons, and a fist they're able to eliminate rear-line gun batteries as well as easily take down tougher units in the backfield (crisis suits, devastator squads, riflemen and defilers). Sometimes they suck, though, so don't count on them every game.

For your grey hunters, consider losing the powerfist and giving it to a wolfguard who will then accompany them (1 more attack, better LD in the whole unit, possibilities of things like combiweapons or CMLs). Your grey hunter units are, otherwise, reasonable. If you play enough you'll eventually fall away from having things like power fists, wolf standards, and motw in them as you discover that they're amazing at beating face with only the barest of wargear.

[evisiron]

Well, this weekend was terribly disheartening. My doubles partner and I tested out these

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HQ

Wolf Lord
-Thunderwolf
-Storm Shield
-Power Fist
-Artificer Armour
-Saga of the Bear

Wolf Lord
-Thunder Wolf
-Wolf Claw
-Storm shield
-Artificer armour

Troops

5x Grey hunters

FA

3 Thunderwolves
-Powerfist
-Stormshield
[Given Move Through Cover by tournament chart]

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HQ

Shrike

Troops

10x Scouts
-Missile Launcher
-Melta bombs
[Given Stealth by tournament chart]

Fast Attack

2x Landspeeder Typhoon
-2x Heavy flamers

1x Lanspeeder Typhoon
-Multi melta

Heavy Support

Predator
-Sponson lascannons

...to make sure they ran as we expected for the doubles tournament next month.

Instead, they lost all three test games
Game 1 VS IG boosted with Blood Angels FnP went sort of well, the wolves dived in but got slowly whittled down. There are few sadder things than seeing a Thunderwolf Lord beaten to death with lasgun butts. Straken solo killed all three wounded thunderwolf cavalry in a moment of Epicness.

Game 2 VS Ork Biker list (2 warbosses, 2 units of Nob Bikers, Bikers given Stealth). The shooting bounced and the Thunder-wonder unit tore up a chunk but didn't break them, got counter charged by the other unit and died. The Marines pretty much got tabled.

Game 3 VS Grey Knights + Grey Knights saw the Knights getting the first turn and just walking backwards to prevent getting charged. The TW absorbed a lot of fire but couldn't track enough transports before being picked apart. Tabled again.

This has been extremely demoralising. We were considering trying a different route, but we have an Awesome Concept from a modelling perspective that we may never get the chance to do again, so we're sticking with it. Wish us luck, we'll need it.

[Cheesegear]

So, yesterday was tournament day. My army was not going to be as good as it should have been, because they took their standard 6x4 terrain and just smushed it all to one side to make 4x4s, and making all the boards basically cityfight-style with terrain and LoS-blockers everywhere, which my army doesn't particularly deal with very well. I hadn't expected that, but, if you've got a truly good army, you should be able to come out with something.

vs. Blood Angels

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Librarian, x2 Tactical Squads

Dawn of War was excruciating, as he got to deploy first pushing back my bajillion units to the back of the board. And after that Fear the Darkness made the battle fairly elementary as the Librarian jumped out of the bushed and said "Boo!" to all my units as they then ran of the table.

Marbo killed the Librarian. Then it went alright, but at that point I didn't have enough units to stand up against Bolters at that point.

0-1. Minor Loss. From experience, taking a Loss in the first round puts you at the bottom tables with all the scrubs for Round 2. Generally those with bad lists and then also lost the first round.

vs. Eldar

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Farseer, Pathfinders, Dire Avengers in a Falcon, War Walker

This battle was s*. The Pathfinders plinked at units, Marbo blew up the Falcon (and himself, as he does), and my Mortars just made a mess of the Avengers that came out. The War Walker Outflanked and got into Assault with my Command Squad. I didn't have any Krak Grenades because why would you? And the Walker couldn't kill anything.

Went to Turn 7. There was just too many Infantry for the Pathfinders to do anything and no matter how much s* I threw at the Pathfinders, their 2+ save was still a 2+ save even when I made them re-roll it.

2-2. Draw. Sigh.

vs. Blood Angels (again)

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Librarian, Scouts with Rifles, Assault Squad in Razorback, Scout Bikes

So. Much. Terrain. I had one of my Vet units run up the board and try to go for a 1-1 Draw, but in the last turn, he parked his Razorback at the mouth of the bottleneck so I couldn't move through it because there was impassable terrain on both sides. Sigh.

Marbo rolled absolutely terribly in all cases. 5, Poison (2+) attacks is supposed to be amazing. And then you roll three 1s To Wound. And then he passes his armour saves, then dies. Which means his last Scout was able to nab the objective by Running in his last turn while my Veterans couldn't move past the tank because if they wanted to kill it, they'd have to stay still to shoot the Lascannon.

0-2. Major Loss. Lame. My opponent agreed that there was nothing I could do. I lost two turns of shooting because the terrain just allowed my opponent to go wherever he wanted without being seen.

vs. Tyranids

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Warrior Prime, Zoanthrope, Termagants, Tervigon, Genestealers

This one was easy. Just shoot everything and I win. Since it was Annihilation the Tervigon couldn't spew every turn, and due to the dire circumstances by Turn 3, he did it and rolled an 11, that is, 5, 5, 1. Double on the first go, and 11 is not a big number.

Marbo dropped a Demo Charge on the Prime taking it's last wound. Then in the next round proceeded to bring the Tervigon down 5 Wounds in Assault, then died, then a Lascannon did the rest. Marbo can destroy a Tervigon, but he can't kill Scouts? Ugh.

He had three Genestealers left at the end. So many Frag Grenades.

5-2. Major Victory.

vs. Blood Angels (again, again)

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Dante, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company

lol. I had heard this army was destroying everybody because nobody could deal with the Sanguinary Guard and at 500 Points most people only have 2, maybe 3 units on the board and that Dante and Sanguinary Guard would split after they landed and take care of 2 units without breaking a sweat.

Unfortunately, the turn after they landed (in the clump formation), Marbo appeared like the G*d damn Batman and dropped a Demo Charge and killed them all. Then Dante took a Lascannon to the face. I'm the only person at the tournament who has managed to kill Dante that day and get the bonus points for killing the enemy Commander of this guy.

The Death Company had died in the first turn.

Tabled. Maj...Minor Victory. The f*ing TO said that in the final round the only way to achieve a Major Victory was to hold all the objectives. Despite Tabling always being a Major Victory. In the first ten seconds of round start, I head somebody yell "F*" as they rolled for 5 objectives. Due to chance there was nobody at the tournament who could win on any table who rolled more than a '1' on their objective dice.

The TO said that "This will teach people to include more Scoring units." S*. It's 500 points. People are lucky when they can include even two and still win anything. I even heard in argument to the TO "Even the guy playing Infantry Guard only has 3 Scoring Units. Infantry Guard can't even win!" Obviously, that turned out to be true. F*.

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Aside from the massive rage-fest that was finding out the Victory Conditions for the final round, I believe everyone had fun and Best Sports went to the person who I wanted it to go to (the Tyranid player).

1. Coteaz and Crusaders and Melta-Warriors in Chimeras. Not DCAs.
2. IG Chimera spam. By not taking any special weapons (like Meltas and Plasmas like you usually do), he was able to fit more Chimeras. He had four in 500 points. Wish I'd thought of that, but, I didn't know that the terrain was going to be like it was, that is, that it favoured anything that could move fast and abuse the LoS blockers.
3. Farsight Tau. Don't ask me. I didn't play against it. I don't know WTF happed. But Farsight Tau, there it is.

I wasn't in the Top 5, but I was in Top 10 (out of 22). Pretty sure it had something to do with my Sports Score and my Paint Score (below). I don't know more than that. As a joke, I was voted 2nd Best Painted (my entire army was undercoated, that's it), on the grounds that my 'camo pattern' of white, drybrushed white, highlighted white fit my bases perfectly (white dirt) and it was the best camo anybody had ever seen.

The 'Biggest Apocalypse Game' that all the Stores I know of were doing (see Ricky S' post, above) was largely overshadowed by the fact that everyone who played 40K at that store was in the tournament.

[Wraith]

Marbo appeared like the G*d damn Batman and dropped a Demo Charge and killed them all. Then Dante took a Lascannon to the face. I'm the only person at the tournament who has managed to kill Dante that day and get the bonus points for killing the enemy Commander of this guy.

If nothing else, I hope you managed to find a minute or two to squeeze in a Happy Dance over this. It would have been well deserved for such a beautifull well-timed situation.

And to think I ever doubted taking marbo in 500pts....

Otherwise.... The only thing more powerful than the Random Number Generator is a TO with an ego. Tough break, sir. Still, at least now you know the one thing that can stop the IG Juggernaut and can prepare accordingly next time.

[Squark]

You're going to want more meltaguns.

Real quick: I find that 1x meltagun, 2x power weapons is fine for wolf scouts. MotW is acceptable, I'd say put it on your meltagun guy. I always put a combi-melta/pfist wolfguard with them. I find that with 2x melta shots, power weapons, and a fist they're able to eliminate rear-line gun batteries as well as easily take down tougher units in the backfield (crisis suits, devastator squads, riflemen and defilers). Sometimes they suck, though, so don't count on them every game.

For your grey hunters, consider losing the powerfist and giving it to a wolfguard who will then accompany them (1 more attack, better LD in the whole unit, possibilities of things like combiweapons or CMLs). Your grey hunter units are, otherwise, reasonable. If you play enough you'll eventually fall away from having things like power fists, wolf standards, and motw in them as you discover that they're amazing at beating face with only the barest of wargear.

Thanks for the help. So, next on my list to acquire is probably some Wolf Guard and a pack of Long Fangs.

Couple of rules questions;
1) I can mix terminator armor, jump packs, and bikes together freely in a wolf guard squad, right? Mainly for putting them in other units, obviously.
2) Can I have some of the wolf guard from a squad leading other squads, and some in their own squad? (For instance, take 10 wolf guard and put 5 in grey hunter packs and scout packs, and keep the other 5 in their own unit)?
3) Would it be possible to turn a spare wolf guard into the sergeant of a long fangs pack?
4) Is there any coloration rule for Lone Wolves, and are they worth taking (and how much wargear should they have?)

[Ricky S]

Thanks for the help. So, next on my list to acquire is probably some Wolf Guard and a pack of Long Fangs.

Couple of rules questions;
1) I can mix terminator armor, jump packs, and bikes together freely in a wolf guard squad, right? Mainly for putting them in other units, obviously.
2) Can I have some of the wolf guard from a squad leading other squads, and some in their own squad? (For instance, take 10 wolf guard and put 5 in grey hunter packs and scout packs, and keep the other 5 in their own unit)?
3) Would it be possible to turn a spare wolf guard into the sergeant of a long fangs pack?
4) Is there any coloration rule for Lone Wolves, and are they worth taking (and how much wargear should they have?)

2. Rules as written suggest that yes you can.

3. Yes.

4. I dont consider them worth taking. They are fun and fluffy but you are spending a lot of points on a unit that just cant put out the same damage as a full squad of something else. The good thing though is because you dont give up kill points for losing them you can afford to just throw them at things. Your opponent will be forced to kill them.


Man, Cheesegear that sucks. I dont understand TO sometimes. Most people are hard pressed to take 5 objectives in a 2000pts game let alone 500. Do you think you would take guard again knowing what you know now?

Its also probably not a bad thing that you missed the apoc game. Sure they are fun but they take a ridiculous amount of time. The game I played in was five and a half hours.

Edit: There is a kill team tournament/campaing/thing coming up and I was wondering what would be better. Before you say anything about the points I will have 250pts to spend. 25 extra because I am playing space wolves and 25 extra if I play 5 games before next sat (which I intend to do).

-5 thunder wolf cavalry
or
-2 units of 5 grey hunters with plasma guns in razorbacks?

[Cheesegear]

Do you think you would take guard again knowing what you know now?

Well, the other IG player came second. So. Probably.

CCS + Chimera = 105 Points
CCS + Chimera = 105 Points
Veterans + Chimera = 125 Points
Veterans + Chimera = 125 Points

Having 40 points left for upgrades when you already have 4 vehicles with Multi-Lasers and Heavy Flamers is messed up.

With the amount of terrain that was there, gunline armies were shafted. I don't normally play with that much terrain on a 4x4 board. I also wasn't particularly pleased by having to face three Blood Angel armies, but, that's the meta-game.

Problems I had;
Game 1 - Fear the Darkness. Solved by being in a vehicle.
Game 2 - Inability to deal with Cover Saves on the other side of the board. Solved by being in a vehicle with Heavy Flamer
Game 3 - Lack of mobility. Solved by being in a vehicle.
Game 4 - While there were no problems, per se. It would've gone better with Heavy Flamers.
Game 5 - Didn't really have any problems.

[BoSheck]

Thanks for the help. So, next on my list to acquire is probably some Wolf Guard and a pack of Long Fangs.

Couple of rules questions;
1) I can mix terminator armor, jump packs, and bikes together freely in a wolf guard squad, right? Mainly for putting them in other units, obviously.

Yep. I don't ever take jumpers or bikes in Space Wolves, but you can do this, just remember that the unit moves at its lowest common denominator.

2) Can I have some of the wolf guard from a squad leading other squads, and some in their own squad? (For instance, take 10 wolf guard and put 5 in grey hunter packs and scout packs, and keep the other 5 in their own unit)?

yep. It's how wolves get Sergeants in some of their units. Protip: Take as many wolfguard as you have squads, then you can reduce your KP number by 1 on KP games. Worst case scenario you have somebody taking bullets in a longfang squad.

3) Would it be possible to turn a spare wolf guard into the sergeant of a long fangs pack?

Paint his shoulderpad white. Tada.

4) Is there any coloration rule for Lone Wolves, and are they worth taking (and how much wargear should they have?)

No rules as far as squad markings, per se. I've had good success with Lone Wolves and I genuinely like them as units. I disagree that they're bad--they have always done something for me, but I also play foot wolves. I'd think they were considerabely less desireable in a meched up list. From taking down demon princes and opposing thunderlords, to tag-teaming Abaddon, to just being stupid, threatening bullet sponges.

I always kit mine out with: Terminator Armor, Chainfist (or Thammer) Stormshield, and 2x Fenrisian Wolves. That is also (basically) the cost of a Rune Priest, and you would NEVER take a Lone Wolf over a Rune Priest. Having said that, I don't always take them.

I could see arguments for the effectiveness of cheaper Lone Wolves, but at 50-60 points, I'd rather just take a handful of Fenrisian Wolves. In summation: They're fun, you should definately try them, and they don't belong in every list.

[Renegade Paladin]

4. I dont consider them worth taking. They are fun and fluffy but you are spending a lot of points on a unit that just cant put out the same damage as a full squad of something else. The good thing though is because you dont give up kill points for losing them you can afford to just throw them at things. Your opponent will be forced to kill them.

Nonsense. A Lone Wolf once tanked everything my Leman Russ Demolisher with multimeltas could throw at it and then opened it like a tin can, and that's not the most impressive performance I've seen out of them; just the one that's happened to me personally. The real problem with them is that they compete for Elites slots in the Space Wolves' truly formidable elites roster.

[Ricky S]

Nonsense. A Lone Wolf once tanked everything my Leman Russ Demolisher with multimeltas could throw at it and then opened it like a tin can, and that's not the most impressive performance I've seen out of them; just the one that's happened to me personally. The real problem with them is that they compete for Elites slots in the Space Wolves' truly formidable elites roster.

Hey, if they work for you then great. I dont find they work for me though.

They do sound like they would be great in an infantry army. Something that you can run forward and block enemy monsters with.

[hamishspence]

They didn't kill a Titan in two turns. They killed an unsupported gargantuan creature. When they have force weapons. What did you think was going to happen?

Aren't gargantuan creatures immune to the Instant Death rule? Even when it's Force Weapons invoking it?

[Cheesegear]

Aren't gargantuan creatures immune to the Instant Death rule? Even when it's Force Weapons invoking it?

Gargantuan Models are immune to Instant Death, instead taking D3 Wounds. It still adds up. Easily.

[Penguinizer]

They're immune to instadeath but I recall them taking extra wounds from them.

[Timberwolf]

Nonsense. A Lone Wolf once tanked everything my Leman Russ Demolisher with multimeltas could throw at it and then opened it like a tin can, and that's not the most impressive performance I've seen out of them; just the one that's happened to me personally. The real problem with them is that they compete for Elites slots in the Space Wolves' truly formidable elites roster.

Of course, last week, I shot a terminator lone wolf with a heavy bolter. 3 "1"'s turned up for the armour save followed by 2 failed FnP's. I think that was a system aberration, I was only hoping to maybe knock a wound off as it closed on my landraider with a chainfist.

[hamishspence]

Two separate rules- from the time when Force Weapons didn't inflict Instant Death.

"All gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule.

In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a characteristic test, etc). Such attacks cause D3 wounds instead"

So, shouldn't the 5E Force Weapons simply have no extra effect- falling under "causes Instant Death" rather than "would normally kill a model automatically".?

For comparison, would the Tempest Blade wielded by Captain Sicarius cause D3 wounds instead of Instant Death, under your interpretation?

[Renegade Paladin]

Two separate rules- from the time when Force Weapons didn't inflict Instant Death.

"All gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule.

In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a characteristic test, etc). Such attacks cause D3 wounds instead"

So, shouldn't the 5E Force Weapons simply have no extra effect- falling under "causes Instant Death" rather than "would normally kill a model automatically".?

For comparison, would the Tempest Blade wielded by Captain Sicarius cause D3 wounds instead of Instant Death, under your interpretation?

How did force weapons used to work?

[Cheesegear]

How did force weapons used to work?

"Slain outright" and "Remove from the game", or something like that, but, point is, they specifically didn't cause Instant Death. Remember how Grey Knights worked against Daemons before the new Codex? Grey Knights had their own (old) version of Force Weapons, and Codex over-rules Rulebook and had Daemon players raeging because Eternal Warrior didn't stop Grey Knights.

Still, Nemesis weapons effectively do the same anyway.

[Renegade Paladin]

Hey, if they work for you then great. I dont find they work for me though.

They don't work for me. I don't play Space Wolves. They tear up armor like nobody's business when equipped properly, though, and I've had occasion to find that out since I basically field a mechanized company.

[Hootman]

Since the topic of mech-IG has just been raised, I have a question. How would I want to build a company (or whatever it's called) of Steel Legionnaires, following their fluff as much as is reasonable? I know the following:

1. Chimeras EVERYWHERE.
2. Grenade Launchers, Missile Launchers.
3. Commissars, LRBTs, and Basilisks seem to feature prominently.

Would it be smarter to field a fully Mech'd Veteran list with lots of heavy support, or would I want to play Infantry Platoons and try to mechanize them? Obviously it depends partially on points and money and boring things like that, but pretending those are not an issue (They ARE, but pretend they aren't), what should I be going for? Could anyone offer a few basic list ideas?

[Renegade Paladin]

Since the topic of mech-IG has just been raised, I have a question. How would I want to build a company (or whatever it's called) of Steel Legionnaires, following their fluff as much as is reasonable? I know the following:

1. Chimeras EVERYWHERE.
2. Grenade Launchers, Missile Launchers.
3. Commissars, LRBTs, and Basilisks seem to feature prominently.

Would it be smarter to field a fully Mech'd Veteran list with lots of heavy support, or would I want to play Infantry Platoons and try to mechanize them? Obviously it depends partially on points and money and boring things like that, but pretending those are not an issue (They ARE, but pretend they aren't), what should I be going for? Could anyone offer a few basic list ideas?

Every squad gets a Chimera, which undermines one of the great strengths of Guard; the ability to blob up and have five lascannons in one unit all taking only one order to boost. However, Chimeras are one of the other great strengths of the Guard, so it works out. If you're doing all mechanized, I'd say do all veterans if points allow; an infantry platoon doesn't do much for you that veterans don't except allow spamming of scoring units, but good luck getting them all into Chimeras, since a lot of the components of a platoon can't take them.

Basilisks and other ordnance battery vehicles should be closed-topped. Points-wise this is a gigantic waste, but it's how things are done on Armageddon, due to poison ash wastes and so forth. Model your infantry with gas masks if possible (if you're playing Cadians, the command squad box comes with some, though procuring enough to outfit everyone in the army will be difficult without resorting to buying the bits), but if not don't worry about it too much; the masks don't have any effect on gameplay.

Commissar Yarrick if you're really devoted to the theme. He really doesn't synergize well with Guard, though, since he wants to assault things and is incredibly expensive.

[Hootman]

[Summary: Take Veterans and Crew Compartments. Don't sweat the gasmasks unless you want to. Yarrick is meh.]

Ah, I didn't think of the Crew Compartments--good call. The rest, I knew or suspected. As for my models, I'm actually trying to get MOSTLY old Legionnaires from the metal range, sniping them on Ebay when I can. I have one Cadian Command box half-built, and I was very pleased when I found the respiratiors. A little Greenstuff, and they'll be swashing about in greatcoats with the rest of my boys.

So, a medium-sized list might look something like this?

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Company Command Squad, 205pts
-Medic, 3 Plasmaguns, Carapace Armor
-Commander: Meltabombs
+Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)

Lord Commissar, 95pts
-Powerfist, Camo Cloak

TROOPS
Veterans, 140pts
-3 Grenade Launchers
+Chimera (Hull Heavy Flamer)

Veterans, 140pts
-3 Grenade Launchers
+Chimera (Hull Heavy Bolter)

Veterans, 140pts
-3 Grenade Launchers
+Chimera (Hull Heavy Bolter)

Veterans, 140pts
-3 Grenade Launchers
+Chimera (Hull Heavy Bolter)

FAST ATTACK
Scout Sentinels 2, 90pts
-2 Missile Launchers

Scout Sentinels 2, 90pts
-2 Missile Launchers

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Battle Tank, 150pts

Medusa, 155pts
-Hull Heavy Flamer, Enclosed Crew Compartment, Bastion Breachers

Medusa, 155pts
-Hull Heavy Flamer, Enclosed Crew Compartment, Bastion Breachers

TOTAL: 1500 points

One of the best things about this list that I realized after making it is that with maybe one more Cadian Command Sprue and a little flexibility with WYSIWYG, I should have all of the infantry models I need to field this, with a few models left over. I don't have the 7 Chimera Chassis to mount weapons on (I have one Chimera, one Hellhound right now), but I do have the Russ. With a few hours and a pile of cardboard, I could easily put together an Ultra-Casual Chimera-Wall to test the list with. The Sentinels will probably be a bit harder, but aren't impossible by any stretch.

I'd love to see what people think of this list, since aside from a big bucket of old-school Grots in the mail that may need some love and a few models on my work-bench, I don't think I have a lot of things sitting around in my To-Do list right now.

((...Actually, I have those Deffguns to scratchbuild, but I'm still working on a design for that. Those are a lower priority than my JUGGERNAUT-RIDING WARBOSS that I'm going to mek up into a passable imitation of a Biker Warboss. Now I just need to create some rockets to slap on the sides...))

[Renegade Paladin]

An Armageddon-pattern Sentinel is actually armored with a lascannon, if you want to be ultra-fluffy. I suppose I should have mentioned that, but don't sweat it too hard; Armageddon is supplied from forge worlds too, so not all their stuff has to be Armageddon-pattern. Don't forget to give gas masks to the Sentinel pilots if you keep them open-topped!

But yeah, I like the list. I was about to say something about not having anything above S8 until I got to the bastion breacher Medusas, which should serve the purpose just fine.