League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF! And Janna!

[Arbitrarity]

That item sounds... mediocre, actually. Looking at it, you're dropping 5 AD from the bases, so the 2.5% isn't necessarily huge (you need to be down 12.5% just to make it "even" with having a hexdrinker and a pickaxe). For 3300, you get, if you can sit at one HP, 95 AD, 36 MR, and a shield. It's not terrible, but the fact is very few people can sit at suck low HP, and since it's got no multiplicative effects, it only really works on tanky DPS types that want MR and pure damage. I guess it could work on Riven, Panth, and a few others, but it doesn't really do anything to draw in people who weren't already buying a hexdrinker, since it's essentially just a slightly stronger hexdrinker.

Nah, it's great. RENEKTON IS HAPPY.
It may not be superlatively cost effective. It may not give much for 925 gold (5 AD, 6 MR, 100 hp more shield, passive), but it basically fills the Hexdrinker role (which is a great midgame item, acts like Wit's for AD casters), but scales ok into lategame. (Hexdrinker was changed, notice it only uses one Longsword now)
It's not even so much that I'll be building it, specifically. But it lets me build Hexdrinker and know that I can scale it into lategame. So I could build, say... Renekton with Hexdrinker/Brutalizer, and actually scale up.

Also, I like how much Ezreal and Miss Fortune I'm seeing. Seems like all the AD now have their own little niches, though Twitch is still super rare.

[PersonMan]

I've tried dps Mundo, but nothing I do with him on that end seems to ever work.

Hmmm. Generally, I'd suggest going full tank early, as between Moon Doe's Cleavage and Communism Smack you can deal plenty of damage (I Hate The Fire Department is good, too, but I normally use it to farm). My usual build is: I can't remember what I normally build and have no Mundo games screenshot and saved.

Merc Treads (get early), HoG (get early), Spirit Visage (get mid/early), Phage(->Frozen Mallet later)

She looks so much fun. Very much a proactive support. New mission: farm the 2300k IP I'll need to get her ASAP.

I agree, but...2300k? If you mean 2300, that's one thing, but 2300k is 2.3 million IP.

[Stone Heart]

I have been playing as Shen since I bought the Frozen skin, and I am so happy that I have. He is so much fun, and is just a blast to play as. Its a shame that he gets banned most drafts I have played in though.

[Dogmantra]

With all this talk about the new AD caster item, I'm just wishing they'll finally roll Lifesteal into Physical Damage abilities and limit Spellvamp only into magical. It makes no sense that you have to build SPELLvamp on Pantheon/Riven/Garen/Whathaveyou anyways. That would improve AD caster itemization so much.

I was under the impression that spellvamp is harder to get because you need to build AD and probably some aspd and crit to get a lot of use out of your lifesteal whereas you only need spellvamp and your base damages. Wouldn't making lifesteal apply to skills be way OP on characters with good base damages, especially late game when they could ALWAYS be healing between their skills and their whacking? (I'm thinking Urgot here)

That Irelia nerf sounds like quite a bit...and I'm actually okay with it.

happygluttonface.jpg

actually this entire patch seems quite cool
I think Malevolent Mawchaosswordthing or whatever it's called may become one of my favourite items.

Also, I like how much Ezreal and Miss Fortune I'm seeing. Seems like all the AD now have their own little niches, though Twitch is still super rare.

I dislike how much Ezreal I'm seeing because I want to be a special snowflake.
HE IS MY AD CARRY YOU CAN'T HAVE HIM

[Delusion]

I'm wondering if that BigHexdrinker-maw-thingy is worth replacing the third BT on Riven. I hopse so, stacking BTs is a bit boring.

[PersonMan]

I'm wondering if that BigHexdrinker-maw-thingy is worth replacing the third BT on Riven. I hopse so, stacking BTs is a bit boring.

Although stacking BTs is much safer now, as you don't have the whole 'whelp, I died, now I suck until I can farm my BTs up again' issue.

[Eldariel]

I was under the impression that spellvamp is harder to get because you need to build AD and probably some aspd and crit to get a lot of use out of your lifesteal whereas you only need spellvamp and your base damages. Wouldn't making lifesteal apply to skills be way OP on characters with good base damages, especially late game when they could ALWAYS be healing between their skills and their whacking? (I'm thinking Urgot here)

Eh, I don't know; don't traditional AD carries already do that? Like, good bases only really matter early game. It's possible that some champs could be overpowered but that could easily be tweaked on the individual skills. Right now tho, you basically have to get Spellvamp on champs with no AP scaling and that makes no sense; itemization exists to get Lifesteal on AD champs but Spellvamp on AD champs is just a silly requirement in the first place.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I agree, but...2300k? If you mean 2300, that's one thing, but 2300k is 2.3 million IP.

Uh...

>.>

<.<

Riot is creating a new pricing bracket for this champion, and it's going to take a lot of saving up? Or maybe I was half-asleep when I made that post.

[Dogmantra]

Eh, I don't know; don't traditional AD carries already do that? It's possible that some champs could be overpowered but that could easily be tweaked on the individual skills. Right now tho, you basically have to get Spellvamp on champs with no AP scaling and that makes no sense; itemization exists to get Lifesteal on AD champs but Spellvamp on AD champs is just a silly requirement in the first place.

I suppose that AD carries DO do that, but then AD carries are all about the lategame, right? I just really appreciate that lifesteal is something that you need to combine with other items whereas spellvamp is standalone. Maybe saying lategame rather than midgame was a mistake. Think of like, Riven, for example. She could dive in, heal from attacks then when she got low hit her ult and get all her health back from hitting everyone. I think rather than making lifesteal apply to physical damage skills, it'd be better if there was a decent AD spellvamp item. I mean, Gunblade used to fill that niche for a couple of characters (mostly I'm thinking Pantheon here), and it certainly wasn't terribly underpowered or anything, just a little less than viable on characters with AP ratios.

[Eldariel]

I suppose that AD carries DO do that, but then AD carries are all about the lategame, right? I just really appreciate that lifesteal is something that you need to combine with other items whereas spellvamp is standalone. Maybe saying lategame rather than midgame was a mistake. Think of like, Riven, for example. She could dive in, heal from attacks then when she got low hit her ult and get all her health back from hitting everyone. I think rather than making lifesteal apply to physical damage skills, it'd be better if there was a decent AD spellvamp item. I mean, Gunblade used to fill that niche for a couple of characters (mostly I'm thinking Pantheon here), and it certainly wasn't terribly underpowered or anything, just a little less than viable on characters with AP ratios.

I just hate the fact that practically all of the current AD itemization is useless for AD casters; there's a whole lot of solid items but you can use Brutalizer, Last Whisper and the Bloodthirster since those are the only mechanics properly transplanted over to AD casting from AD carrying.

Since AD casters already utilize the AD-tree itemization, I find it only logical to just take this to the logical conclusion, make the present itemization work for them and make them scale off the AD-tree abilities as opposed to making a weird hybrid-but-not-really-hybrid-but-mixed-ability-tree-items-because-we-could-not-be-arsed-to-take-the-logical-approach.

And the artificial boundary between Spear Throw and Spear Hit never made sense to me anyways. Why does throwing a spear proc Spellvamp while hitting with a spear procs Lifesteal? Even better, why does HSS-hitting with spear proc Spellvamp while normal hitting procs Lifesteal? And why does throwing a spear or shooting a gun cost mana? And why in the name of all that's sacred does Katarina do magic damage?

[Dogmantra]

I just hate the fact that practically all of the current AD itemization is useless for AD casters; there's a whole lot of solid items but you can use Brutalizer, Last Whisper and the Bloodthirster since those are the only mechanics properly transplanted over to AD casting from AD carrying.

I agree with you that AD caster itemisation is awful, 'specially since Gunblade nerfs and I do think it needs to be better. More skills that scale with crit might be nice (a la Garen's spin) for a couple of extra items that might be worthwhile.

And the artificial boundary between Spear Throw and Spear Hit never made sense to me anyways. Why does throwing a spear proc Spellvamp while hitting with a spear procs Lifesteal? Even better, why does HSS-hitting with spear proc Spellvamp while normal hitting procs Lifesteal? And why does throwing a spear or shooting a gun cost mana? And why in the name of all that's sacred does Katarina do magic damage?

Well, I think this is where we go from "makes sense" to "would be horrendously OP otherwise". I mean, especially if we're talking about Pantheon who is probably the hardest to balance nonstealth character in the game (except maaaaybe Shen). So if you look at chucking a spear, range is stronger than melee. If it didn't have a mana cost it would be infinite harrass on a short cooldown which is completely undodgable; two ways to go from here, remove that skill from his kit and just give him a ranged autoattack, or leave him with a relatively boring very strong skill. If it applied lifesteal, I gotta say, Wriggle's Lantern solo top Pantheon just became the best laner in the game. In fact, I'd wager that Vamp Sceptre solo top Pantheon would be amazing, given that Spearshot has pretty good base damage.

And I think that Kat does magic damage for a couple of reasons. Firstly it's a bit of a holdover from the days when a physical damage ability that wasn't a steroid was WOAH and secondly that she's a burst caster (she'd need more damage to deal with armour as opposed to MR) who primarily scales off AP. Same reason that Ezreal's autoattacks deal physical damage. He's a carry so tradition takes precedence over the fact that he is explicitly said to be shooting people with magickal lasers.

I have gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I think yeah, it doesn't make any sense that chucking a spear would work completely different from running up to someone and hitting them with the same spear (besides the obvious), however I think at this point you have to just acknowledge that BLC did it better.
OH SNAP
Wait no, I mean that you have to acknowledge that game design comes before making an ounce of sense.

[Eldariel]

Well, I think this is where we go from "makes sense" to "would be horrendously OP otherwise". I mean, especially if we're talking about Pantheon who is probably the hardest to balance nonstealth character in the game (except maaaaybe Shen). So if you look at chucking a spear, range is stronger than melee. If it didn't have a mana cost it would be infinite harrass on a short cooldown which is completely undodgable; two ways to go from here, remove that skill from his kit and just give him a ranged autoattack, or leave him with a relatively boring very strong skill. If it applied lifesteal, I gotta say, Wriggle's Lantern solo top Pantheon just became the best laner in the game. In fact, I'd wager that Vamp Sceptre solo top Pantheon would be amazing, given that Spearshot has pretty good base damage.

Well yeah, I was more wondering why so many clearly manaless champs are mana champs in the first place. I guess it's just the default resource management system in the game so meh.

But Spear applying Lifesteal would be no more special than GP's Parrrley applying Lifesteal; which it already does. As such, the concept, I feel, is not inherently overpowered.

And I think that Kat does magic damage for a couple of reasons. Firstly it's a bit of a holdover from the days when a physical damage ability that wasn't a steroid was WOAH and secondly that she's a burst caster (she'd need more damage to deal with armour as opposed to MR) who primarily scales off AP. Same reason that Ezreal's autoattacks deal physical damage. He's a carry so tradition takes precedence over the fact that he is explicitly said to be shooting people with magickal lasers.

Kat's AD scaling is actually better than her AP scaling (outside Shunpo, but Death Lotus and Bouncing Blades have strong AD scaling); the only reason you build her AP instead of AD is the fact that you need Spellvamp, MPen and in general, stats you only get from AP items. So in fact, the same exact problem we're talking about in the first place, only in her case the solution is "make her do magic damage" apparently.

But yeah, I feel she's a holdover from the time when abilities dealt magic damage period, and should be changed to the more modern design philosophy. Autoattacks I have no real problem with though I would prefer magical autoattacks of course.

I have gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I think yeah, it doesn't make any sense that chucking a spear would work completely different from running up to someone and hitting them with the same spear (besides the obvious), however I think at this point you have to just acknowledge that BLC did it better.
OH SNAP
Wait no, I mean that you have to acknowledge that game design comes before making an ounce of sense.

Well, I feel there's no reason for game design and sense to be in opposition in this case. I feel it would be entirely possible to change all current AD-scaling abilities to utilize Lifesteal and Critical Strike and, with some adjustments, maintain perfectly good balance while suddenly enabling the current itemization to serve all the champion categories.

Some changes would have to be made, sure. But that's, I feel, not nearly as heavy-handed as the changes that would need to be made to make AD caster itemization work with the present system. I feel even the old Gunblade was a bandaid fix at best; even then you wasted the AP stats and mostly the Lifesteal stats most of the time and that made me feel it really silly whenever I built it on champs that don't have solid AP scaling.

[Nadevoc]

Well yeah, I was more wondering why so many clearly manaless champs are mana champs in the first place. I guess it's just the default resource management system in the game so meh.

But Spear applying Lifesteal would be no more special than GP's Parrrley applying Lifesteal; which it already does. As such, the concept, I feel, is not inherently overpowered.

GP's Parrrley holds a special place for me. I'm totally okay with it scaling off of AD-style items differently/more than any other ability, because it used to be the ONLY ability in the game which scaled off AD, and I preferred that design. A few champs that scaled off AD was neat; it made them unique. Now, though, all AD-related champs that come out scale off AD, and it's kind of meh to me. This is totally a personal preference thing, of course.

Kat's AD scaling is actually better than her AP scaling (outside Shunpo, but Death Lotus and Bouncing Blades have strong AD scaling); the only reason you build her AP instead of AD is the fact that you need Spellvamp, MPen and in general, stats you only get from AP items. So in fact, the same exact problem we're talking about in the first place, only in her case the solution is "make her do magic damage" apparently.

But yeah, I feel she's a holdover from the time when abilities dealt magic damage period, and should be changed to the more modern design philosophy. Autoattacks I have no real problem with though I would prefer magical autoattacks of course.

I think you also build AP because it's cheaper point for point. AP vs. AD Kat sometimes switch places based on nerfs or buffs, and she's one of the very few hybrid champs we've got (even if she's never built that way at the moment). I don't see why we should lose the potential to be hybrid just so she can be another character that just stacks AD without really thinking about it.

Well, I feel there's no reason for game design and sense to be in opposition in this case. I feel it would be entirely possible to change all current AD-scaling abilities to utilize Lifesteal and Critical Strike and, with some adjustments, maintain perfectly good balance while suddenly enabling the current itemization to serve all the champion categories.

Some changes would have to be made, sure. But that's, I feel, not nearly as heavy-handed as the changes that would need to be made to make AD caster itemization work with the present system. I feel even the old Gunblade was a bandaid fix at best; even then you wasted the AP stats and mostly the Lifesteal stats most of the time and that made me feel it really silly whenever I built it on champs that don't have solid AP scaling.

I think this would also be a massive buff to AD casters when they're already at around the right power level as a whole. I feel like all abilities should scale off Spell Vamp and auto attacks off Life Steal.

[Chumbaniya]

GP's Parrrley holds a special place for me. I'm totally okay with it scaling off of AD-style items differently/more than any other ability, because it used to be the ONLY ability in the game which scaled off AD, and I preferred that design. A few champs that scaled off AD was neat; it made them unique. Now, though, all AD-related champs that come out scale off AD, and it's kind of meh to me. This is totally a personal preference thing, of course.

I think I'm with you on preferring the old style design. GP's Parrrley feels like it's a way to use his auto-attack at range, which is quite a cool skill. I don't feel like it should be necessary for every physical damage based champion to scale with AD though - not every physical ability should need to be little more than an 'auto-attack plus'.

If you look at at an AD champion like Tristana, whose abilities don't scale with AD, she has a really interesting strength curve, having strong damage early on with her W and E, then a good burst at 6 with her ult, and then those abilities become more utility focused later on as she focuses on high auto-attack damage with her Q active. With someone like Graves, whose Q and R scale on AD, they stay about as strong relative to auto-attacks through the course of the game and they just deal damage, which is much less interesting. If you have physical damage champions with abilities that don't scale with AD, their abilities can be much more utility focused and can also have far stronger base damage, which makes levelling up those abilities a much more interesting choice early on.

[ex cathedra]

I have been playing as Shen since I bought the Frozen skin, and I am so happy that I have. He is so much fun, and is just a blast to play as. Its a shame that he gets banned most drafts I have played in though.

He's banned because he's a skill-less champion who does everything well. He can't be 1v1'd by like 85% of the champion roster and if you do send two or three people to stop him from splitpushing he justs ults to his team in another lane and takes that tower instead. He was also made into a tier 1/1.5 laner and a very strong anti-carry so he has no real disadvantages.

I dislike how much Ezreal I'm seeing because I want to be a special snowflake.
HE IS MY AD CARRY YOU CAN'T HAVE HIM

I dislike how much Ezreal I'm seeing because he's a terrible champion.

GP's Parrrley holds a special place for me. I'm totally okay with it scaling off of AD-style items differently/more than any other ability, because it used to be the ONLY ability in the game which scaled off AD, and I preferred that design. A few champs that scaled off AD was neat; it made them unique. Now, though, all AD-related champs that come out scale off AD, and it's kind of meh to me. This is totally a personal preference thing, of course.

See, it makes more sense to me that a group of similar abilities would all have similar scaling, rather than Parrley being the only example. Maybe that did make GP a special snowflake, so to speak, but it doesn't make for good game design.

I think you also build AP because it's cheaper point for point. AP vs. AD Kat sometimes switch places based on nerfs or buffs, and she's one of the very few hybrid champs we've got (even if she's never built that way at the moment). I don't see why we should lose the potential to be hybrid just so she can be another character that just stacks AD without really thinking about it.

Doing physical damage is generally a significant disadvantage, and no one really has the opportunity to be a hybrid champion because hybrid itemization doesn't actually exist. I would be okay if Kat lost either side of her ratios because, though it might make her less unique, it would make her a better champion both in power and design.

If you look at at an AD champion like Tristana, whose abilities don't scale with AD, she has a really interesting strength curve, having strong damage early on with her W and E, then a good burst at 6 with her ult, and then those abilities become more utility focused later on as she focuses on high auto-attack damage with her Q active. With someone like Graves, whose Q and R scale on AD, they stay about as strong relative to auto-attacks through the course of the game and they just deal damage, which is much less interesting. If you have physical damage champions with abilities that don't scale with AD, their abilities can be much more utility focused and can also have far stronger base damage, which makes levelling up those abilities a much more interesting choice early on.

See, you use the world 'interesting' when I would use the word 'poor design.' Abilites should be intuitive, as should a champion's playstyle. You shouldn't have to look at a champion and puzzle out what that champion should build; it should be obvious. You look at Garen, and you think "I should build big swords and a bunch of armor/MR." You look at Riven, and you think that you should build a ton of AD. You see Veigar and you build a bunch of magic wands/hats/shrunken heads.

Champions like Tristana and Sion don't give you that. Tristana has strong AP ratios and she only actually has one ability that is strictly an AD steroid. Sion is completely ambiguous since at least one of his skills is pretty much worthless regardless of how you build him. New players see Sion's ult and assume that AD Sion is awesome, which strikes me as very misleading on the designer's part.

Unintuitive design = poor design.

[Chumbaniya]

And the artificial boundary between Spear Throw and Spear Hit never made sense to me anyways. Why does throwing a spear proc Spellvamp while hitting with a spear procs Lifesteal? Even better, why does HSS-hitting with spear proc Spellvamp while normal hitting procs Lifesteal? And why does throwing a spear or shooting a gun cost mana? And why in the name of all that's sacred does Katarina do magic damage?

I think when you start looking at design decisions at this low a level, it doesn't need to make sense at anything more than a balance level. If it works in the context of a champion's playstyle, it doesn't need to fit perfectly into game logic. Shooting a gun or throwing a spear costs mana because it would be ridiculously overpowered for them not to and that would ultimately mean the abilities would have to be much weaker and the champions wouldn't be as much fun to play. Sure, it doesn't make sense for them to cost mana, but by the same token it doesn't make sense for launching a fireball from your hands to cost mana because it doesn't make sense for anything to cost mana. Mana is just a weird number made up for gaming purposes that doesn't represent anything particularly tangible.

[Chumbaniya]

See, you use the world 'interesting' when I would use the word 'poor design.' Abilites should be intuitive, as should a champion's playstyle. You shouldn't have to look at a champion and puzzle out what that champion should build; it should be obvious. You look at Garen, and you think "I should build big swords and a bunch of armor/MR." You look at Riven, and you think that you should build a ton of AD. You see Veigar and you build a bunch of magic wands/hats/shrunken heads.

Champions like Tristana and Sion don't give you that. Tristana has strong AP ratios and she only actually has one ability that is strictly an AD steroid. Sion is completely ambiguous since at least one of his skills is pretty much worthless regardless of how you build him. New players see Sion's ult and assume that AD Sion is awesome, which strikes me as very misleading on the designer's part.

Unintuitive design = poor design.

I agree that I'd actually like to see Tristana's abilities without AP scaling either - I think it's perfectly acceptable for champions to have non-scaling abilities because it forces you to think about early vs. late game strength. I like the existence of scaling abilities, but I think that maybe Riot are too invested in them because that's one of the biggest differences between LoL and the traditional DotA model.

I think you're right that a game needs to be intuitive, but I think that remit only extends so far. Looking at it from another perspective, a game needs to involve intelligent decisions - especially if it's designed for competitive PvP - that allow a smart player to optimise their play and get one over on their opponents.

I think you're overestimating the role that the designers should play in determining how the game is played. The designers provide the raw materials in the form of mechanics, champions and items, but it's actually the players that determine how the game is played. Kennen has quite a clear focus on ability power in terms of his design, but I don't think some top teams using him as an AD carry means his design is inadequate - it means players are being inventive with what they've been given. Kog'maw is almost always played AD at a high level, but he's my favourite mid AP because I decided it works very well for my playstyle, and I wouldn't like that taken away because every champion needs to have exactly one obvious build type.

I don't think it's possible to make LoL easy for new players to understand, but then they don't actually need that understanding if they're playing against other new players. Sion looks like a good AD champion to new players because he's actually a pretty good AD champion for new players - In games of around level 15 or below, I saw AD Sion a bunch of times and it worked out pretty well, because as a new guy the only people you need to be on a par with are other new guys. People learn about champions and roles organically - I don't think design should be too restricted by the way a brand new player will interpret it.

[Eldariel]

I think you also build AP because it's cheaper point for point. AP vs. AD Kat sometimes switch places based on nerfs or buffs, and she's one of the very few hybrid champs we've got (even if she's never built that way at the moment). I don't see why we should lose the potential to be hybrid just so she can be another character that just stacks AD without really thinking about it.

She has more damage with purely AD than purely AP itemization tho since her ratios are that much better for AD. That said, obviously AP items have utility so they win out (NOTABLY SPELLVAMP).

I think this would also be a massive buff to AD casters when they're already at around the right power level as a whole. I feel like all abilities should scale off Spell Vamp and auto attacks off Life Steal.

Eh, champion balance is a concern for each individual champ and I find it shouldn't really be defining in large strokes like this; take removal of Dodge, it had nothing to do with the balance of Udyr/Jax/Sivir/Nidalee and everything to do with the system itself. Balance can be built around the system no matter the system itself; this is about fixing itemization.

AD carries scale off the stats the items they build offensively give. AP champs scale off the stats the items they build offensively give. AD casters scale off exactly two stats in the items they build offensively, and one stat that's not in the items they build offensively. This seems retarded to me. Everything around that is a bandaid fix; AD ratios of 2.0 happen because crit can't be used as a multiplier for the AD ratio instead. Lee Sin for instance has built-in spellvamp to make up for the failures of the itemization system, too.

Either they need to make an entirely new, nonsensical itemization path for AD casters, or they need to just get rid of the bandaid values and conform the AD casters, that somehow were born in all silence without much thought, to the current item system and I find the former vastly preferable.


Oh, and no-cost spear throw isn't necessarily overpowered; Shen has Vorpal Blade too and that's hardly a problem. Strong ability to be sure, but nothing more than that. Hell, ranged autoattacks do the same thing. Though that's just a matter of me thinking they overuse mana and underuse alternative systems. But Olaf isn't OP even tho Reckless Swing costs no mana.

[ex cathedra]

I agree that I'd actually like to see Tristana's abilities without AP scaling either - I think it's perfectly acceptable for champions to have non-scaling abilities because it forces you to think about early vs. late game strength. I like the existence of scaling abilities, but I think that maybe Riot are too invested in them because that's one of the biggest differences between LoL and the traditional DotA model.

I think you're right that a game needs to be intuitive, but I think that remit only extends so far. Looking at it from another perspective, a game needs to involve intelligent decisions - especially if it's designed for competitive PvP - that allow a smart player to optimise their play and get one over on their opponents.

Non-scaling abilities are fine, but all of Tristana's abilities have strong scaling. It's deceptive. Her scaling suggests that AP Tristana is viable when it clearly isn't.

I think you're overestimating the role that the designers should play in determining how the game is played. The designers provide the raw materials in the form of mechanics, champions and items, but it's actually the players that determine how the game is played. Kennen has quite a clear focus on ability power in terms of his design, but I don't think some top teams using him as an AD carry means his design is inadequate - it means players are being inventive with what they've been given. Kog'maw is almost always played AD at a high level, but he's my favourite mid AP because I decided it works very well for my playstyle, and I wouldn't like that taken away because every champion needs to have exactly one obvious build type.

The fact that AP Kog and AD Kennen are functional aren't necessarily flaws of their design (except for Kennen's base stats, which might be an oversight). I'm not opposed to champions filling multiple roles; however, if a champion is capable of filling a second role (or if their kits makes them appear as such) they should be able to without punishing the player for doing what seemed intuitive. AP Kog is okay because if you play AP Kog you can still do well. AP Trist is strictly inferior to both AD trist and nearly every other AP carry, yet it appears to be a choice left to the players by the designers to anyone who isn't intimately familiar with game mechanics.

[Ivellius]

You know, we need a good jungler who uses lasers. I was thinking about this when trying to figure out a good Team Beam Spam: IM FIRIN MAH LAZOR.

Carry: Lux/Ezreal
Support: Lulu/Lux
Solo Lanes: Xerath/Swain/Galio/Viktor

Wonder if I'm missing someone. Can anyone think of someone? Maybe Lulu can learn to jungle or something.

[Chumbaniya]

Non-scaling abilities are fine, but all of Tristana's abilities have strong scaling. It's deceptive. Her scaling suggests that AP Tristana is viable when it clearly isn't.

I totally agree. AP Trist isn't really an alternative or even a worse option that's not too bad unless you're trying to be competitive, it's just not a functional way to play. I don't think she should scale with AP - my point was only that I like the fact she doesn't scale with AD, because it gives her a much more interesting progression over the course of a game.

The fact that AP Kog and AD Kennen are functional aren't necessarily flaws of their design (except for Kennen's base stats, which might be an oversight). I'm not opposed to champions filling multiple roles; however, if a champion is capable of filling a second role (or if their kits makes them appear as such) they should be able to without punishing the player for doing what seemed intuitive. AP Kog is okay because if you play AP Kog you can still do well. AP Trist is strictly inferior to both AD trist and nearly every other AP carry, yet it appears to be a choice left to the players by the designers to anyone who isn't intimately familiar with game mechanics.

I'm not sure how this relates to your point about intuition and character builds. I agree that the AP scaling on Trist is superflous, but that doesn't go any way towards explaining why, in general, AD champions should have their abilities scale with AD. Champions with various viable builds are interesting - provided that the recommended build for a champion points you towards one of them, new players shouldn't struggle. Even with Trist, the recommended build is AD, so if a new player decides to experiment in a different direction they're aware they're being unconventional, they'll try it, and they'll learn that it doesn't work.

[Nadevoc]

She has more damage with purely AD than purely AP itemization tho since her ratios are that much better for AD. That said, obviously AP items have utility so they win out (NOTABLY SPELLVAMP).

Alright. I haven't played or paid attention to Kat in awhile, so I wasn't sure what her ratios were.

Either they need to make an entirely new, nonsensical itemization path for AD casters, or they need to just get rid of the bandaid values and conform the AD casters, that somehow were born in all silence without much thought, to the current item system and I find the former vastly preferable.

I'm totally cool with them putting in some AD caster items. It's something I've thought was missing. I understand why they're cautious about putting new items in the game, but I find it odd that there's no sign they've even been looking at an AD caster item or two.

Oh, and no-cost spear throw isn't necessarily overpowered; Shen has Vorpal Blade too and that's hardly a problem. Strong ability to be sure, but nothing more than that. Hell, ranged autoattacks do the same thing. Though that's just a matter of me thinking they overuse mana and underuse alternative systems. But Olaf isn't OP even tho Reckless Swing costs no mana.

I like most champs using mana for both balance and itemization reason.

[Mutant Bunny]

You know, we need a good jungler who uses lasers. I was thinking about this when trying to figure out a good Team Beam Spam: IM FIRIN MAH LAZOR.

Carry: Lux/Ezreal
Support: Lulu/Lux
Solo Lanes: Xerath/Swain/Galio/Viktor

Wonder if I'm missing someone. Can anyone think of someone? Maybe Lulu can learn to jungle or something.

Fiddlesticks' drain.
Nocturne's fear, IIRC, creates a laser effect with the leash, and the DARKNESS makes for fun light shows.
Amumu's bandage. His ult is all light-based, if you don't think bandages are lasers (for whatever stupid reason).

If nothing else fits, Lee Sin the blind monk would be an amusing contrast to the rest of the team.

Others you may have missed:
Malzahar's ult is an eye laser, and I think his Q can be seen as lasers.
Morgana's ult fires beams.

[Daverin]

On Kat AD vs AP: Assuming a reasonable build where you don't just stack all hats or all BTs or somesuch, isn't the fact that her AD ratios are better than her AP ratios deceptive, reason being AP, as a single stat, is something you are likely to have more of than AD? Someone once suggested twice as much, thus balancing out the ratios, but that was from an older guide so I don't know what item changes could affect that. Also, Shunpo being AP only tilts it even further, for all that is worth.

[fred dref]

On Kat AD vs AP: Assuming a reasonable build where you don't just stack all hats or all BTs or somesuch, isn't the fact that her AD ratios are better than her AP ratios deceptive, reason being AP, as a single stat, is something you are likely to have more of than AD? Someone once suggested twice as much, thus balancing out the ratios, but that was from an older guide so I don't know what item changes could affect that. Also, Shunpo being AP only tilts it even further, for all that is worth.

Her single target damage is slightly higher for AP than AD, assuming maximum possible values of each. Her AoE damage is much higher for the AD, though.

[Qaera]

Since Lee Sin was my only jungler, I decided to learn how to play Udyr.

Bot game, but still, really fun.

~ ♅

[Maxymiuk]

I have pretty much given up on playing support to random people.

Thing is, I like taking that role, but whenever I lane with someone other than a couple of my friends, I end up with an AD carry that is either a timid bunny, or a suicidal lemming. He either expects me to do all the work (I once laned with Akali who just sat in a bush, didn't farm, and waited till I Q someone with Blitz), or towerdives at half health and then chews me out when I don't follow. Best case scenario is that we lose control of the lane and end up towerhugging for the better part of the laning phase.

And I'm usually the one to be blamed either way.

[lord_khaine]

Hey guys, could anyone give me some quick advice on how to jungle Fiora?

[Mirrinus]

Amumu's bandage. His ult is all light-based, if you don't think bandages are lasers (for whatever stupid reason).

There's always the Darth Amumu custom skin if you really want him to shoot lasers.

[Mutant Bunny]

There's always the Darth Amumu custom skin if you really want him to shoot lasers.

I was thinking of that, actually.