Legend Of Korra: Will It Bend!

[Zeful]

It is important to keep in mind that Aang is still responsible for all of the Fire Nation deaths that occur at the hand of Koizilla. He might not be in direct control, but he knowingly unleashed the Avatar; their blood is on his hands.

This doesn't translate directly to killing them, of course, but it's still something which should be noted.

And it is. Thrice. The next episode has the kid even has nightmares specifically empathizing with the warriors on the boats he destroyed.

[LordVader]

I disagree. Aang is but the current embodiment of the spirit of the Avatar. Blaming Aang for the Avatar's and Ocean Spirit's work is not ethically correct. You might as well blame Zhao, who caused the Ocean Spirit to get angry. Or Firelord Ozai, for allowing all those mooks to go to the North Pole. Aang was involved in the chain of events, but he was not the one making the decisions. Had he been in control, he'd have probably acted differently: ice-locking the ships, for example, rather than outright sinking them. He was far less aware of the consequences than Zhao was when he killed the Moon Spirit, and I don't see how anyone's blood can be placed on his hands in that scene.

Grey Wolf

Aang knowingly unleashed the Avatar State with the understanding that it was going to rain hell on the Fire Nation soldiers. Their deaths are absolutely his responsibility. It's not to say that he directly murdered them himself, or even that he directly willed the spirit to kill them, but it's still his responsibility.

It's akin to the conversation he had with Avatar Kyoshi about the death of Chin the Conquerer. Kyoshi didn't kill him directly; he died because he didn't step out of her way, but she still accepts responsibility for his death despite the fact that one could argue that Chin instigated the conflict in the first place and was thus responsible for anything that happened to him.

If the Avatar State had kicked in without Aang's volition, I'd agree with you, but he clearly "activates" it here.

And it is. Thrice. The next episode has the kid even has nightmares specifically empathizing with the warriors on the boats he destroyed.

I wasn't talking about noting it in the show, but rather in our discussion here.

[Dr.Epic]

Was randomly flipping channels and saw Korra was playing on Nick. I was happy!

[Silverraptor]

The Ocean Spirit had already released Aang before going after Zhao.

...Damn...

[zimmerwald1915]

Aang knowingly unleashed the Avatar State with the understanding that it was going to rain hell on the Fire Nation soldiers. Their deaths are absolutely his responsibility. It's not to say that he directly murdered them himself, or even that he directly willed the spirit to kill them, but it's still his responsibility...If the Avatar State had kicked in without Aang's volition, I'd agree with you, but he clearly "activates" it here.

As established in "The General", and expanded upon throughout Book 2, Aang cannot at that time activate the Avatar state of his own volition. He can wish it would activate, he can choose not to fight the pain and hurt that activate it, but he has no conscious control over when he enters it. The only time he demonstrates conscious control over the Avatar state is in the Book 3 finale, when he chooses to leave it after letting it beat down Firelord Ozai.

[dehro]

I do find it simultaneously hilarious and scary that Mai is that good that she can incapacitate people with throwing knives without actually killing them.

I can do that too.. I throw a knife at someone, miss him completely and look stoopid, if not actually selfharming by stabbing myself in the foot... and then my prey falls on the floor holding his sides and laughing at me. there you go, I incapacitated him.

It is important to keep in mind that Aang is still responsible for all of the Fire Nation deaths that occur at the hand of Koizilla. He might not be in direct control, but he knowingly unleashed the Avatar; their blood is on his hands.

I fail to see the issue here. If precedent with the Air Nomad counts for something, they were knowingly about to slaughter the entire North Pole population.
also.. I don't remember it being written in the Avatar Job description that they would bend stuff in such a manner as to never bring any casualties.. they stop wars. instantly.
sometimes when you do that, you get mooks who die. sometimes it's even someone important (Chin, to name one). that doesn't change the big picture, which is that an era of peace is ushered in whenever they actually pull out the big guns.
so.. he's offed a few mooks..sad, but...why rise the issue at all?
and yes, of course it happens offscreen. the intended target for this show is the under 14 demographic. why should we be surprised that they kept the gore and onscreen violence to the minimum necessary to advance the plot?

It really varies; for example, Zuko burns Toph's feet on contact with his fire, and Aang burns Katara.

all in all..rather minor events, if we consider the amount of firebending that occurs in each and every episode. IRL even a lit match can cause a fastidious burn.

[Kd7sov]

As established in "The General", and expanded upon throughout Book 2, Aang cannot at that time activate the Avatar state of his own volition. He can wish it would activate, he can choose not to fight the pain and hurt that activate it, but he has no conscious control over when he enters it. The only time he demonstrates conscious control over the Avatar state is in the Book 3 finale, when he chooses to leave it after letting it beat down Firelord Ozai.

Actually, he does intentionally enter the Avatar State at the end of Book 2. Considering Azula's subsequent actions that may not have been the wisest course of action, but he did manage it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Aang knowingly unleashed the Avatar State with the understanding that it was going to rain hell on the Fire Nation soldiers.

Zimmerwald makes an excellent point, so I'd ask you to substantiate that he knowingly unleashed the Koizilla. But beyond that, I also need you to support your assertion that he knew the Koizilla would engage in systematic killings. Previous occasions of the Avatar state have been careful to not kill, and thus I don't see how Aang, with his extremely limited knowledge of the spirit world, the Avatar state and the Ocean Spirit would in any way anticipate the bloodthirstiness of the Koizilla.

Their deaths are absolutely his responsibility. It's not to say that he directly murdered them himself, or even that he directly willed the spirit to kill them, but it's still his responsibility.

So you keep asserting, but don't explain why this would be the case. I continue to disagree with the feeling that because he was in the chain of events that makes him responsible. Whether it was the Avatar state or the Ocean Spirit that made the decision to sink boats, Aang was not involved, and responsibility ends there.

It's akin to the conversation he had with Avatar Kyoshi about the death of Chin the Conquerer. Kyoshi didn't kill him directly; he died because he didn't step out of her way, but she still accepts responsibility for his death despite the fact that one could argue that Chin instigated the conflict in the first place and was thus responsible for anything that happened to him.

No, it is not the same. Kyoshi had control over the Avatar state, and knew full well that breaking up a continent would be dangerous to anyone near the edge. She is the primary creator of the gouge. Aang could not know that the Avatar and the Ocean spirit would go on a rampage, and had no ability to control their actions. Since both Avatar and Ocean are presumably self-aware, they and no-one else, is responsible for the deaths. Even if Aang brought them forth of his own volition (and I agree with Zimmerwald that it is unlikely), he bears no more responsibility for their actions than, say, Kyoshi's mother, who also unleashed her of her own volition.

Grey Wolf

[golentan]

Tangent. Anyone else keep misremembering Korra's first line in the series ("I'm the avatar, you gotta deal with it!") as including the word "bitches?"

[dehro]

Tangent. Anyone else keep misremembering Korra's first line in the series ("I'm the avatar, you gotta deal with it!") as including the word "bitches?"

no..but it totally should

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I fail to see the issue here. If precedent with the Air Nomad counts for something, they were knowingly about to slaughter the entire North Pole population.

Sorry, I missed this earlier. The issue is not whether it was morally justified to kill them. I suppose some may think so, but I am not arguing that and neither is LordVader. No, the point we are discussing is if Aang was being a hypocrite when he refused to kill the Fire Lord when he had engaged in mook killing earlier.

Specifically, LordVader states that Aang was morally responsible for the deaths of the soldiers, and I (and others) am arguing he was not.

Grey Wolf

[MLai]

I don't think Aang was being a hypocrite because I think his specific hang-up is that he does not wish to kill someone in cold blood, meaning defeating the person and rendering him at your mercy, and then killing him. That's different from when mooks died when Aang was in the heat of battle.

So if while dogfighting with elemental missiles in the air, Ozai accidentally got himself crushed under a tumbling rockface, Aang wouldn't get too hung up over it (for too long).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think Aang was being a hypocrite because I think his specific hang-up is that he does not wish to kill someone in cold blood, meaning defeating the person and rendering him at your mercy, and then killing him. That's different from when mooks died when Aang was in the heat of battle.

So if while dogfighting with elemental missiles in the air, Ozai accidentally got himself crushed under a tumbling rockface, Aang wouldn't get too hung up over it (for too long).

No, that cannot be it, because he can't even bring himself to strike the Melon Lord in the mock invasion battle. He is clearly opposed to all forms of killing.

GW

[BRC]

No, that cannot be it, because he can't even bring himself to strike the Melon Lord in the mock invasion battle. He is clearly opposed to all forms of killing.

GW

I think the issue Aang is having is the idea of going into a fight with the intent of killing somebody. He's fought before, he's practiced, lets call it "Aggressive Self Defense", fighting to incapacitate people before they've killed or captured him. He's fought in pursuit of some goal, and if people try to stop him he has no qualms about taking them down.
But never has a death been his goal. The Fire Nation tanks attacking the northern air temple, their crews may have died, but Aang wasn't trying to kill them, he was trying to get them to stop fighting, it just so happened that the only reasonable way to do that would likely lead to their deaths.

With Ozai, the problem is that hes going in with the intent of killing. Nothing about "It was the only way" or "I just needed them to stop fighting" or "I just knocked them over and they didn't get up". He's being asked to make a conscious decision to end somebody's life.

[dehro]

Sorry, I missed this earlier. The issue is not whether it was morally justified to kill them. I suppose some may think so, but I am not arguing that and neither is LordVader. No, the point we are discussing is if Aang was being a hypocrite when he refused to kill the Fire Lord when he had engaged in mook killing earlier.

Specifically, LordVader states that Aang was morally responsible for the deaths of the soldiers, and I (and others) am arguing he was not.

Grey Wolf

gotcha.
mook killing occurred in a vaste scale battle between troops and armed forces. the avatar state was definitely not something Aang had a firm grip on by any means, irrespective as to whether he triggered it voluntarily or not (also, let's discuss motivation and circumstances here, not just morality..he was a 12 year old kid getting desperately out of options, and being pulled by all sides by 2 god-like spirits, friends, allies and such..). he opened the gate to the avatar state, yes..but the ocean spirit took the ball and ran with it. if Aang had any semblance of control over his actions in avatar state, the Ocean spirit took that away from him.
in fact one could even say that the occurrence strenghtened his resolve not to revert to killing...if he ever needed a reminder.

also, I would like to point out that the fire nation uniform includes a redshirt. really..what were they thinking?

[John Cribati]

So... The Interactive Game updated. Important, spoilery info below:

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• Mako and Bolin have pseudo-adopted a street urchin called Skoochy. People are already shipping him with Jinora
• Zuko's still alive. He stepped down from the throne and his daughter is ruling the Fire Nation. Dante Basco said on twitter a while back that he was doing voices for Korra, and an episode entitled Skeletons in the Closet so that one's answered
• Aang's face is on the money
• The guy who invented cars probably started out working for the Cabbage Merchant. No, seriously.

[dehro]

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I'm surprised the mechanist didn't play a role in building republic city.
I do hope Zuko doesn't turn out to be Amon,... I mean..yet another firelord going bat**** crazy evil? boring.

[ChaoticBroth]

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I doubt it. Zuko was the oldest member of Aang's group (I think he was sixteen?) and is probably not going to be leading a revolution sixty/seventy years later. Plus, all things considered, Amon's voice is that of a middle-aged man, not a 70-year-old noble.

[dehro]

true... also.. Amon is obviously Tay Lee and Sokka's secret lovechild... (what can I say...the guy gets around and she did have the hots for him )
of course when Suki hears about it she forces Sokka to chose between them and he drops out of his son's life, who then turns into an evil bastard.


(yeah..I don't really believe this..but it would be fun to watch)

[Morty]

My favoured theory is that Amon is the descendant of the Cabbage Merchant.

[pffh]

My favoured theory is that Amon is the descendant of the Cabbage Merchant.

Lets see:

Ancestor that had his life ruined by benders multiple times. Check
Possible connection to someone rich for funds (Satomobiles). Check
Traveled around the world so he could possibly pick up enough information to effectively fight the benders (the cabbage guy traveled a lot and quite fast). Check

Yeah I'm with you Morty the evidence is quite clear. Amon the Cabbage bender.

[t209]

Lets see:

Ancestor that had his life ruined by benders multiple times. Check
Possible connection to someone rich for funds (Satomobiles). Check
Traveled around the world so he could possibly pick up enough information to effectively fight the benders (the cabbage guy traveled a lot and quite fast). Check

Yeah I'm with you Morty the evidence is quite clear. Amon the Cabbage bender.

http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Cabbage_Corp
Here's the possible corporation owned by Cabbage Merchant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So... The Interactive Game updated. Important, spoilery info below:

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Yeah, I'm calling it now: the Northern Water Tribe Council Member is the mask guy. The guy has the looks.

Grey Wolf

[thubby]

so apparently republic city is powered by lightning benders. also, mako can apparently bend lightning, at least in peaceful conditions.

raises pro bending questions now.

[Zevox]

so apparently republic city is powered by lightning benders. also, mako can apparently bend lightning, at least in peaceful conditions.

Not sure I like that. In the original series lightning was a very rare technique only the best firebenders could perform. We only ever saw the Fire Nation royals do it, and even then Zuko never managed it. For a bunch of random firebenders to be doing it to fuel power plant seems... quite the step down from that.

Zevox

[Dr.Epic]

**** just got real! Awesome episode! Though the revelation was pretty predictable if you saw the series final to the last series.

[Seerow]

**** just got real! Awesome episode! Though the revelation was pretty predictable if you saw the series final to the last series.

You really think so? I would have been surprised had I not been reading this thread and seen people make the connection based on a 1 second panel with Amon holding the guy's head in the same way. I mean I never would have made the assumption that was going to be what happened simply because we were given word of god (or close to it) at the end of last season that the chi bending required the power of a fully realized avatar. Apparently they backtracked on that and are making "How did someone who's not the Avatar do this?" a new mystery.

[Lord Raziere]

What!? when!? where!?

Did I miss it?

[pffh]

Yeah what? Is the the third episode out already?

[Seerow]

Yeah what? Is the the third episode out already?

Yeah it aired at 11:00, it just ended 15 minutes ago.