Chain-Pain [3.5]

[ojayaba]

So my partner in crime was pointing out a really rude spiked chain concept and I wanted some thoughts on it.
- improved trip
- combat reflexes
- exotic weapon spiked chain
so at 2nd level as a fighter you can start this nasty little pile of crap. use your reach with the spiked chain to trip people as an AoO with combat reflexes, when they try to get up again, just keep tripping them. sounds simple enough... as you get higher in level you can make this worse with various other things of bad news bears.

I wanna see how badly broken this can get when optimized.
friend of mine said he could get it too nasty levels of brokeness with karmic strike(Cwar) and robilar's gambit (phb2) i wanna see what you the people of the boards can do.


Edit:
banned books:
Bot9S
Psionics in general
Dragon magazine(the DM doesn't believe they are legit from WoTC)
Splatbooks
or any other 3rd party books

rules from DM:
Must take at least 2 levels in any given class that is to be used.
Must be able to point out book with page for reference sake or banned from using.


PS: wizards in my mind are useless for my play style. I do not want to have to deal with why I should play a wizard because it's more powerful etc...
I play tanks and archers because that's what i like. i will pick up other classes here and there but ultimately, I will pick a tank over a wizard any day of the week.

[Soranar]

It gets nasty with increased reach.

Willing deformity increases your reach by 5 (takes 2 feats)
aberrant reach can also increase your reach by 5 (another 2 feats)

playing a large race also increases your reach

expansion, enlarge person, righteous might all increase your size too

any combination of the above can give you a 40 ft reach (20 that was doubled by the chain)

You can now go into frenzied berserker to get a 5 foot step between cleaves (obviously you'll also want cleave + improved cleave)

Result: You become the perpetual motion machine, a sort of human blinder that massacres whole armies (during their round)

[Lateral]

Ah, couple of things.

• You do realize you only get so many attacks of opportunity, right?
• You do realize that you have to actually be able to trip the other guy, right?
• You do realize that this just means that your melee character doesn't entirely suck, right?
• Horizon Tripper is this.

And yes, I can easily make a powerful tripping build. Your party Wizard will still be way stronger, if he has any idea what he's doing.

expansion, enlarge person, righteous might all increase your size too

They don't stack.

Result: You become the perpetual motion machine, a sort of human blinder that massacres whole armies (during their round)

No, you don't. Combat Reflexes is DEX modifier attacks of opportunity per round, and your DEX will be abysmal from the size penalties.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

friend of mine said he could get it too nasty levels of brokeness with karmic strike(Cwar) and robilar's gambit (phb2) i wanna see what you the people of the boards can do.

And he didn't even consider Thicket of Blades, Stand Still, Stormguard Warrior, Evasive Reflexes, Knock-Down and Expansion.

[Glimbur]

Trying to stand up provokes an attack of opportunity. They are not yet standing up, so you can't trip them with this attack. It's still a good trick, but not "zomg broken". One mundane counter is archers. Another is wave after wave of kobolds/orcs/whatever.

[Soranar]

Seriously guys, enough with the ''play a wizard it's stronger'' argument, not everyone wants to play a tier 1 class

as for the spells increasing reach, of course they don't stack, thus my total reach was 40 for a build using any of the spells or power

5 (base) +5 (aberrant reach) +5 (deformity) + 5 (large size)= 20 x2 (reach weapon) = 40ft reach

Secondly, a single size increase removes 2 from your DEX. You can still have a positive DEX score while enlarged.

The following build for example

Barbarian 1 (pounce, take the ferocity form of rage that increases DEX and STR)
Any full BAB
Frenzied Berserker 10

with rage+ frenzy you get plenty of STR (which affects the tripping roll) and even normal AoO do plenty of damage

[Dusk Eclipse]

Frankly chain-tripping is the best option for a core-only fighter if he wants to still be somewhat effective at higher levels, true adding splatbooks open a lot more synergestic content; but generally it is better to have some other shtick because as other people have said there are a lot of counters for this particular strategy.

Frenzied berseker is useful for melee build; but I don't think that it would be that good in a trip-focused builds. And if you are dipping barb in such builds, why the hell are you not taking the second level to get Improved trip as a bonus feat without pre-requisites? (wolf totem trades uncany dodge I think for Improved trip and it is compatible with Spirit Lion totem)

[Lateral]

Seriously guys, enough with the ''play a wizard it's stronger'' argument, not everyone wants to play a tier 1 class

...The hell? First of all, what I said was that Wizards are stronger. That's true. I wasn't recommending that you play a wizard- far from it. It's just that thinking chain trippers are broken is ridiculous.

Secondly, a single size increase removes 2 from your DEX. You can still have a positive DEX score while enlarged.

Yes. However, this:

You become the perpetual motion machine, a sort of human blinder that massacres whole armies (during their round)

does not happen with opportunity attacks. You have maybe four a round, at most, after factoring in the size decrease. And if you're fighting anything bigger and stronger than you are, and you've put all your resources into reach, how exactly are you tripping him in the first place? Sure, it's a nice battlefield control trick, but it's not that strong.

Frankly chain-tripping is the best option for a core-only fighter if he wants to still be somewhat effective at higher levels, true adding splatbooks open a lot more synergestic content; but generally it is better to have some other shtick because as other people have said there are a lot of counters for this particular strategy.

Yeah, in core it's between tripping and mounted charging- Spirited Charge and a lance is triple damage, you can still make some decent damage out of that.

[Soranar]

I just suggested a barb dip for pounce /ferocity and left it open as to how to optimize the rest of the progression but I totally agree that getting improved trip is worth another BARB level

This build also needs a lot of feats so you might want to use psywar or fighter. If you go the psywar route you don't really want to rage so it becomes a completely different build.

Fighter 2 (or 4)

Or else a Tome of battle class that grants thicket of blades.

Including mage slayer in the build could also be a decent idea but , again, that's a lot of feats so you have choices to make.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Don't forget to include 2 levels of Monk (passive way) for Combat Expertise without INT13 (also Imp Unarmed Strike qualifies you for Defensive Throw)

A good way to start this is
Monk2, Fighter2, Psywar2

This way you can afford basically every feat you need.

[Lateral]

Don't forget to include 2 levels of Monk (passive way) for Combat Expertise without INT13 (also Imp Unarmed Strike qualifies you for Defensive Throw)

A good way to start this is
Monk2, Fighter2, Psywar2

This way you can afford basically every feat you need.

Eh, I prefer Barbarian 2 over Monk 2. You'll never want to actually use Combat Expertise, none of the feats I know of that require Improved Trip also require Combat Expertise, and Barbarian (especially with the Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy ACFs) gets you way better toys along with it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

...

Yeah, in core it's between tripping and mounted charging- Spirited Charge and a lance is triple damage, you can still make some decent damage out of that.

I said Fighter and I meant the class, in core it is much more difficult to get a mount that won't be one-shot by most encounters unless you are a Ranger/druid or a Paladin so I don't think mounted combat is that good for fighters (I guess you could get Leadership; but that isn't a given)

Don't forget to include 2 levels of Monk (passive way) for Combat Expertise without INT13 (also Imp Unarmed Strike qualifies you for Defensive Throw)

A good way to start this is
Monk2, Fighter2, Psywar2

This way you can afford basically every feat you need.

If you are going for a tripper the full BAB and the Str (possibly Dex) strength you get through Barb 2 is far better than 2 levels of monk IMO (and you still get Combat-expertise-free Improved trip with Wolf totem)

Edit: Swordsage'd

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

You are right, Barbarian does it better at first, but Monk gives you more feats, (all of which are useful or help you qualify for useful feats) plus the chance of getting the Decisive Strike ACF or Tashalatora options with War Mind.
It depends on the build. Barbarian is definitely simpler and more straightforward, but monk can be very good too.

[Soranar]

The perpetual motion machine is what happens when a frenzied berserker encounters a large mob of monsters (necromancers often have a ton of minions, goblins, orcs, kobolds, you get the gist).

With that reach + improved cleave and the 5 foot between cleaves he can kill a lot of mooks very quickly.

or, in one particular case, a bar full of people after he'd failed his Will save...

did I mention frenzied berserker has drawbacks?

That particular character (I was the DM) had something like 26 DEX while raging (18 base, +6 from a magic item, +4 from ferocity, -2 from size modifier)

obviously he was high level (over 10, it's been a while) but I remember the 8 AoO very well

Obviously vs a single powerful opponent, that will not happen.

[Deophaun]

5 (base) +5 (aberrant reach) +5 (deformity) + 5 (large size)= 20 x2 (reach weapon) = 40ft reach

Bolded the horribly wrong part of your equation. It's +5 (reach weapon), not X2.

[Lateral]

Bolded the horribly wrong part of your equation. It's +5 (reach weapon), not X2.

Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach...

Really, now, those eyes have to be good for something.

...Well, not entirely. It probably doesn't include the deformity, unless you're going for very broad definitions of 'natural'. It explicitly includes size increases and inhuman reach, though.

[Zaq]

Bolded the horribly wrong part of your equation. It's +5 (reach weapon), not X2.

Not true.

Reach Weapons

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

It's definitely double.

[Deophaun]

Bah, I was thinking of the dumb rules for increasing the size of a reach weapon (where a large spiked chain wielded by a medium human is still the same reach as a medium spiked chain). Gomen.

[Din Riddek]

"Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach"

It sounds pretty debatable. Medium creatures have a natural reach of 5 feet, so a reach weapon would extend it to ten. It makes no sense as all that a medium creature with your aberrant reach and deformity (a total of 15 feet of reach) wielding a ten foot long pole weapon would strike enemies 30 feet away. 15+10 =/= 30.

This should also mean a large creature wielding an appropriate sized reach weapon with those bonuses should have 35-40 ft reach (10 natural, 5 aberrant, 5 deformity =20, +15 or 20 for reach weapon), So Soranar appears to be correct even if his math is off.

[Empedocles]

By most I think it's saying that if you have a reach of 5 ft, and you get a 5 ft. increase, it's now 10 ft. (doubled!). It's more of a broad statement, not an actual ruling.

[Flickerdart]

By most I think it's saying that if you have a reach of 5 ft, and you get a 5 ft. increase, it's now 10 ft. (doubled!). It's more of a broad statement, not an actual ruling.

Except a Large creature with a reach weapon has 20ft reach so yes, it doubles.

To the people claiming this is broken: you realize that, having tripped someone, you've not done all that much to them? Sure they take a bit of penalty to AC in melee, but they can still attack and whatnot, and then they can also get the skill trick to stand up without provoking, and use Tumble to avoid your AoOs to begin with...

So, to recap, tripping is useless against:
Ranged attackers, that fill you full of arrows while you run at them with your silly chain.
Dexterity-based melee fighters, who can ignore your threatened zone.
Large, stable, strong or otherwise untrippable opponents.

What does that leave? Other mundane melee. So the only people you're actually defeating with this trick are small creatures without a lot of BAB, STR or DEX or skills that still feel the need to fight in melee. So, nobody who was a threat.

[Lateral]

Except a Large creature with a reach weapon has 20ft reach so yes, it doubles.

To the people claiming this is broken: you realize that, having tripped someone, you've not done all that much to them? Sure they take a bit of penalty to AC in melee, but they can still attack and whatnot, and then they can also get the skill trick to stand up without provoking, and use Tumble to avoid your AoOs to begin with...

So, to recap, tripping is useless against:
Ranged attackers, that fill you full of arrows while you run at them with your silly chain.
Dexterity-based melee fighters, who can ignore your threatened zone.
Large, stable, strong or otherwise untrippable opponents.

What does that leave? Other mundane melee. So the only people you're actually defeating with this trick are small creatures without a lot of BAB, STR or DEX or skills that still feel the need to fight in melee. So, nobody who was a threat.

Well, it's still useful against casters, assuming you can get to them and have Mage Slayer. Not all casters are going to be able to Abrupt Jaunt, so this can be a valid denial tactic.

[Flickerdart]

Not all of them will have Jaunt. All of them will have Anklets of Translocation or some other way of getting away. Unless they're stupid, I guess, which is possible if they let you just walk up to them in the first place.

[Lateral]

Not all of them will have Jaunt. All of them will have Anklets of Translocation or some other way of getting away. Unless they're stupid, I guess, which is possible if they let you just walk up to them in the first place.

Ah, that's... not usually true. You're assuming that DMs are going to play casters the way a player with a good amount of system knowledge would play a caster, which is fairly unlikely since the caster of a player with that system knowledge is really damn hard to kill. Simply from a gamist perspective, while wizards can negate most of the tactics used on them pretty easily, I don't think most DMs will do that unless your party is highly optimized enough that it's the best way to make an appropriate encounter.

[Flickerdart]

Hoping that your DM will take pity on you is not the best strategy when building a character.

[Crasical]

Trying to stand up provokes an attack of opportunity. They are not yet standing up, so you can't trip them with this attack. It's still a good trick, but not "zomg broken". One mundane counter is archers. Another is wave after wave of kobolds/orcs/whatever.

If the AoO is provoked when they are still prone and thus are not able to be tripped again yet, can the tripper simply use Stand Still and force the target to remain prone?

[Red_Dog]

Dexterity-based melee fighters, who can ignore your threatened zone.

I am not sure, but I think tumbling lets you dodge a regular trigger of AoOs, as in => moving out of the square. Was this ever errata'ed/explained officially because I have hard time believing that a DC15 tumble check lets you nullify lvl4 maneuver AND a feat[Hold the line].

I could be wrong, or I could have missed it but I didn't see a direct interpretation of tumbleDC15 letting you flat out ignore very high level things.

==========================================>

Also, thread didn't mention this. If you want battlefield control be a Warmind with 3 levels of Knight[PHBII] in the beginning somewhere.

lvl3 Knight makes ALL of the terrain that you threaten difficult. Warmind generously gives Expansion that give 2 size categories increase and just generally gives 15lvls of psychic warrior in powers AND useful class features AND fullBAB.

So yeah, one of the funnest controllers is probably Warmind. After you are done with warmind, you can throw few crusader levels on top. after lvl 15, your initiator level is 7 so you should get Thickest of blades quick-ish.

Best of luck!^^

P.S. And god, why wizard arguments again?O_0 *sigh*

P.S.2. & EDIT=>

If the AoO is provoked when they are still prone and thus are not able to be tripped again yet, can the tripper simply use Stand Still and force the target to remain prone?

Pretty sure you can use stand still for that. It stops movement. Unless opponent is under FoM effect or passed the save he/she should remain prone.

[Flickerdart]

lvl3 Knight makes ALL of the terrain that you threaten difficult.

No it doesn't. Emphasis mine:

Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain.

[Red_Dog]

No it doesn't. Emphasis mine:

Hmm fair enough. Still shouldn't be too difficult to get to the target. Mount up, and use fast dismount skill trick.

P.S. Actually if you are mounted and expanded, you'll probably still threaten quite a bit even if you didn't get to dismount[like when you are flying].

Can you take AoOs while mounted?

[Lateral]

Hoping that your DM will take pity on you is not the best strategy when building a character.

That isn't what I said.