Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[HalfTangible]

I love the new Chaos stuff. may make an interesting diversion to my greenskins...

I might get it later after i get my assault marine situation sorted out...

[Klose_the_Sith]

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum.../0/468490.page

Some images from the new starter set. As a Chaos player I am very very excited. Baroque, intricate armour, not just loyalist with spikes look. The sculpt level of detail looks like space hulk level.

My lurking generally consists of looking down my pointy nose at GW while being happy that some people are still having fun with 40k.

BUT THOSE CULTISTS

If they're in the Starter Set then I may need to start trying to eBay snipe some, because I've been wanting to try post-apoc skirmish with other systems and those are just such gorgeous footsoldiers for it.

[Drasius]

http://natfka.blogspot.com.au/2012/0...28Faeit+212%29

I'll just leave this here.

[LeSwordfish]

I've got three chimeras. Two carry henchmen squads about. One carries a purifier to the front line. Is the default load out good? Should I give the purifiers one a hull-mounted flamer?

[Eldan]

Once again, Chaos prove themselves to be the least boring 40k humans.

[BoSheck]

Played me some nids today.

We threw down for an 1850 game.
My list:

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205 - HQ - Sammael on Speeder
340 - Troops - RWAS #1, Apothecary 2x Plasmaguns, 1x fist 1x MM AB
190 - Troops - RWAS #2, 2x Meltaguns, MM AB.
140 - Troops - RWAS #3 2x Meltaguns
205 - Heavy Support - Metatron: Mortis Pattern Contemptor with 2x Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons, CML
180 - Heavy Support - Sandalphon: Mortis Pattern Contemptor with 2x Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons
75 - Fast Attack - Landspeeder Typhoon W/MM
75 - Fast Attack - Landspeeder Typhoon W/MM
75 - Fast Attack - Landspeeder Typhoon W/MM
250 - Elite - DWAS, 4x TH/SS, 1x Chainfist/AC
95 - Heavy Support - Dakka Pred

The nids:

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1x Flyrant
1x Hive Tyrant with Hive Guard, Bonesword and Lash Whip
2x Zoanthropes
10x Gargoyles
6x Warrior Brood
3x Hive Guard
15x Termagaunts
10x Termagaunts
10x Hormagaunts
2x Biovores
1x 'Fex with a big gun

Batrep

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There had been word of a Nid incursion in this sector of space recently. Communication had been sparse and unreliable concerning the nature of the brood, but such a threat was not to be ignored.

Wary of their enemy the Unforgiven, led by Sammael this day, chose a sparsely wooded valley to lure out the greedy infestation. The First Chapter was not disappointed. As advanced sensor arrays reported huge amounts of biomass creeping across the jungle toward the valley, bike engines roared to life, rocketing forward to meet the writhing menace.

A single Deathwing squad appeared before the most advanced bikes, well equipped to handle the monstrosities. Shortly thereafter frag missiles and bolter rounds began scything through the lesser creatures, destroying no less than 20 of them in the blink of an eye. Brother Sandalphon, encased within the sarcophagus of his dreadnought sang an ancient hymn of battle as the Kheres Assault cannons unleashed their full wrath into the largest, deadliest best. It fell, despite its incredible chitin and mass, to the Dreadnought's incredible firepower (re: 10 hits, 6 rends, no cover, no invuln.) Sammael flinches as the apothecary from his command squad suffers a catastrophic failure of his plasma gun, his battle brother falling over in a slump, his brothers pouring bolter rounds into unsuspecting Hive Guard. Undeterred, the Master of the Ravenwing pulls the trigger on the second hive guard, leaving the Tyrant standing alone. Several bikes rocket into assault, hammering the weaker tyranids with a speedy surprise assault.

The swam is not completely caught unawares, however. Gargoyles and Hormaguants swam forward, while Warriors and Hive guard attempt to position themselves for better shots. Several of the larger, forward most bikers suffer casualties, amplifying the loss of the command squad. The Tyrant and the Gargoyles skirt around the Deathwing, piling into assault where bikes and Termagaunts battle. The Zoanthropes and biovores attempt, futily, to down the terminators with a series of blasts.

Carnage truly breaks loose as the Ravenwing strike force maneuvers to put terrain between themselves and the Warrior Brood. The roar of multiple assault cannons and several frag missile strikes turn the eager hormaguants into nothing more than a fine red mist. The Deathwing barrel into the Hive Tyrant and Gargyoles, while the Biovores are flanked by two separate attack bikes--the biovores are wounded by well placed bolter rounds and unable to escape the reckless charge of the attack bikes (hammer of wrath'ded). The Tyrant fails to fare much better, one can only stand against so many Thunder Hammers.

Hoping to salvage the battle and secure more biomass for the hive-fleet, a second Tyrant soars in above the battlefield, catching another member of the command squad in its talons as it fires desperately at the Contemptors--managing to strip a single hull point. The Zo's focus their fire on the Master of the Ravenwing, a lance blast penetrates the Shield of Night and Sammael is forced to abandon his speeder while the Gargoyles desperately try to fend off the Deathwing squad tearing through their ranks.

Metatron laughs as he activates his Helical Targeting Array and locks onto the swooping Tyrant-the sky cannot save you from the Fallen. Sandalphon does the same, a few missiles and 24 Assault Cannon shots later, there is nothing left of the Tyranids but a few Warriors--who are quickly dispatched by a rain of missiles within moments.

A crushing victory. I took both primary objectives, all three secondary objectives, and tabled my opponent. Felt kinda bad, but sort of blew him off the table. Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts with Kheres Cannons are still the cat's pajamas. Really straight up rending the 'Fex to death on the first turn was a miracle and I could see the game going completely differently without that kind of luck (I mentioned he might consider a Venomthrope if he wanted to try to run NidZilla, they're sort of Really Good in that list).

[Cheesegear]

A crushing victory. I took both primary objectives, all three secondary objectives, and tabled my opponent.

Yeah. As soon as I read the lists, I kind of felt I already knew the outcome. I could tell you to tell your friend to start investing in ForgeWorld stuff to combat your Kheres Dreads...But, it seems that FW even hate Tyranids and have nothing that can really combat against Dreads.

...Poor Tyranids. It's upsetting when a really fun, unique (even though the idea of the 'Nids were stolen from elsewhere...), visually cool army gets shafted so hard. Dark Eldar are in the same boat.

[Eldan]

Yeah. I've been thinking about starting a nid army as my secondary for a while, but every time I read the book, I change my opinion again. I'm not a very good player, I could never make it work.

[Timberwolf]

...Poor Tyranids. It's upsetting when a really fun, unique (even though the idea of the 'Nids were stolen from elsewhere...), visually cool army gets shafted so hard. Dark Eldar are in the same boat.

I dunno, I played a Dark Eldar player on Thursday. I won, but it was by no means the walkover it could, perhaps, have been.

The lists (As best as I can remember)

Wolfie

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Blood Angels

Librarian

Death Company x 5 - Power Weapon, Power fist, Lemartes

Scouts Camo Cloaks, Missile Launchers

Scouts Camo Cloaks, Missile Launchers

Stormraven - Assault Cannon, Multi Meltas, Sponsons

Stormraven - Assault Cannon, Multi Meltas, Sponsons

Codex Marines

Tyberos the Red Wake

Lightning Claw Assault Terminators (Troops under Tyberos' rules)

Land Raider Redeemer

Dark Eldar

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Archon - Husk Blade, Soul Trap, Blast Pistol, the 2+ invulnerable save thing, Webway portal

5x Incubi including fully tooled Klaivex

Scourges with Haywire Blaster

Scourges with Heatlances

5 x Warrior squads with blasters, all in Venoms.

2 x Razorwings with Disintegrator cannons

1 X Voidraven

Apparently this was my opponents first defeat with this list and it was really close, like about 2 VP's kind of close. It was good to see a proper, fluffy list come out of the blocks swinging and do really well. I made merry with all those Venoms after carefully blasting the Voidraven out of the sjy as it was the one thing that could hurt my beloved Storm Pigeons. However, if he had have remembered that flyers shoot down other flyers, it would have been verrrrrryyyy different as those Razorwings would have been packing Dark Lances and it would have been a race to shoot each other down first. I think I'd have still taken that as everything bar the Bloodstrike missiles is Twin Linked for me and I can split fire and have AV12, but it would have been interesting.

[thereaper]

Combat squadding counts the two squads as one unit for FO requirements, right? I mean, the rule says that they count as a seperate unit for all game purposes, but that interpretation would lead to some weird stuff...

[Cheesegear]

Combat squadding counts the two squads as one unit for FO requirements, right?

Combat Squadding is done at Deployment, not List Creation. So yes.

I mean, the rule says that they count as a seperate unit for all game purposes, but that interpretation would lead to some weird stuff...

Not really. Read when the decision to Combat Squad needs to be made. Remember to read the Errata to Combat Squads that makes Rhinos far better than Razorbacks in 6th.

Space Wolves, who don't use Combat Squads, still use Razorbacks. Blood Angels can use either.

[Tehnar]

This is my first attempt at making a eldar list for a friendly game, tell me what you think. Lots of proxying is to be had, so if you think something else would work much better, tell me.

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HQ:

Farseer
singing spear
eldar jetbike
runes of warding
spirit stones
Fortune
Guide ---> Divination --->Primaris Power
======================173

w/Seer council
5 warlocks on jetbikes
embolden
enhance
3xdestructor
Singing Spears x5
============================320

Troops (180):
Rangers x6
Guardian Jetbikes x3

Heavy Support(147):
Dark Reapers 3x3, exarch , tempest launcher , crack shot

Elites(178)
Wraithguard x4, warlock, conceal, singing spear

Total: 998

[thereaper]

Combat Squadding is done at Deployment, not List Creation. So yes.



Not really. Read when the decision to Combat Squad needs to be made. Remember to read the Errata to Combat Squads that makes Rhinos far better than Razorbacks in 6th.

Space Wolves, who don't use Combat Squads, still use Razorbacks. Blood Angels can use either.

Oh, silly me. Being treated as another unit does not necessarily mean being treated as a separate FO slot. Silly, silly me.

[MeatShield#236]

This is my first attempt at making a eldar list for a friendly game, tell me what you think. Lots of proxying is to be had, so if you think something else would work much better, tell me.

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HQ:

Farseer
singing spear
eldar jetbike
runes of warding
spirit stones
Fortune
Guide ---> Divination --->Primaris Power
======================173

w/Seer council
5 warlocks on jetbikes
embolden
enhance
3xdestructor
Singing Spears x5
============================320

Troops (180):
Rangers x6
Guardian Jetbikes x3

Heavy Support(147):
Dark Reapers 3x3, exarch , tempest launcher , crack shot

Elites(178)
Wraithguard x4, warlock, conceal, singing spear

Total: 998

A few quick impressions: Even for an Eldar list, you don't have a lot of models. I'd drop the Seer council, 320 points is a lot for only 5 models; maybe add a unit of Guardians or Dire Avengers or some more jetbikes.

[Squark]

This is my first attempt at making a eldar list for a friendly game, tell me what you think. Lots of proxying is to be had, so if you think something else would work much better, tell me.

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HQ:

Farseer
singing spear
eldar jetbike
runes of warding
spirit stones
Fortune
Guide ---> Divination --->Primaris Power
======================173

w/Seer council
5 warlocks on jetbikes
embolden
enhance
3xdestructor
Singing Spears x5
============================320

Troops (180):
Rangers x6
Guardian Jetbikes x3

Heavy Support(147):
Dark Reapers 3x3, exarch , tempest launcher , crack shot

Elites(178)
Wraithguard x4, warlock, conceal, singing spear

Total: 998

Couple of things.

1) As meatshield said, you don't have a lot of models. Grey knights don't risk going that low without transports, and Eldar are not exactly grey knights. Also, you've skimped on troops, which is a big no-no when five out of six games you'll play will involve scoring units. I'd probably add some Dire Avengers or some more guardian jetbikes in there instead of that seer council. For that matter, at 1000 points, your farseer is getting pricy for something as fragile as he is. Also, each of your units is small, which means they can easily be picked off
2) Just to be clear, Codex powers are an all or nothing deal. You take powers from your codex, or you roll in the Big Black Book. You can't mix and match. If you're going to be swapping out both of your farseer's powers for BBB power, that's fine. But Fortune and Prescience doesn't work. Frankly, Fortune and Doom are solid enough to keep unless you need to worry about battle brothers (because you have Tau or Dark Eldar Allies)
3) This is just list writing stuff, but elites go right after the HQ (except in Necrons and Codex Marines, who go HQ, Troops, Elites...). Also, the farseer's wargear should probably be condensed to one line, maybe with a second line for the jetbike. The Psychic Powers should also only take one line.

[thereaper]

Had my first and second game of 40k today. Got slaughtered both times (in the first one I was even unlucky enough to not kill a single model ) and had a blast being blasted.

Best highlight from the first game was when my terminators arrived from reserves via deep strike. They were promptly destroyed by a mishap, sealing my fate (as they were my only good method of dealing with vehicles).

In the second game, the enemy HQ (an eldar farseer with a wytchblade) took down my Dreadnought with one blow. Meanwhile, half a board away, his elite troops couldn't hit my HQ to save their lives.

[Squark]

Had my first and second game of 40k today. Got slaughtered both times (in the first one I was even unlucky enough to not kill a single model ) and had a blast being blasted.

Best highlight from the first game was when my terminators arrived from reserves via deep strike. They were promptly destroyed by a mishap, sealing my fate (as they were my only good method of dealing with vehicles).

In the second game, the enemy HQ (an eldar farseer with a wytchblade) took down my Dreadnought with one blow. Meanwhile, half a board away, his elite troops couldn't hit my HQ to save their lives.

Heh. Don't worry about the losses; Pretty much everyone loses their first half dozen games or so simply to inexperience unless their opponent goes easy on them, is somewhat new themselves, or someone has drawn the favor or ire of Tzeentch with their dice rolling (My first win happened mainly because of a lucky roll annihilating a wave serpent with a power fist, back when hitting moving vehicles was a pain in the hind end). Good to see you're being such a good sport about it.

Oh, and a question that's been bugging me for a long time; For the purpose of killing off a unit of space wolves, does an attached wolf guard count as part of the unit when determining who gets first blood or a victory point for killing the unit? I've always played that the wolf guard is sort of nonexistant in terms of kill points (In other words, he doesn't need to die for my opponent to get credit for killing the squad he led), but I'd just like to be sure. Also on the topic of kill points (Well, victory points for killing stuff, but everyone I know still calls them kill points), how exactly do combat squads and kill points interact? Is each combat squad a kill point, or do you have to kill both squads to get one kill point?

[BoSheck]

Oh, and a question that's been bugging me for a long time; For the purpose of killing off a unit of space wolves, does an attached wolf guard count as part of the unit when determining who gets first blood or a victory point for killing the unit? I've always played that the wolf guard is sort of nonexistant in terms of kill points (In other words, he doesn't need to die for my opponent to get credit for killing the squad he led), but I'd just like to be sure. Also on the topic of kill points (Well, victory points for killing stuff, but everyone I know still calls them kill points), how exactly do combat squads and kill points interact? Is each combat squad a kill point, or do you have to kill both squads to get one kill point?

That wolfguard is now part of that unit for ALL purposes. He must die, in addition to ever member of that squad, in order for the KP to be granted. His point value also factors into his squad's for (whoever uses them) unit-cost based victory point calculations.

10 marines combat squaded into 2 5-man teams is 2 Kill Point, as they are two wholly seperate units.

[thereaper]

Heh. Don't worry about the losses; Pretty much everyone loses their first half dozen games or so simply to inexperience unless their opponent goes easy on them, is somewhat new themselves, or someone has drawn the favor or ire of Tzeentch with their dice rolling (My first win happened mainly because of a lucky roll annihilating a wave serpent with a power fist, back when hitting moving vehicles was a pain in the hind end). Good to see you're being such a good sport about it.

Oh, and a question that's been bugging me for a long time; For the purpose of killing off a unit of space wolves, does an attached wolf guard count as part of the unit when determining who gets first blood or a victory point for killing the unit? I've always played that the wolf guard is sort of nonexistant in terms of kill points (In other words, he doesn't need to die for my opponent to get credit for killing the squad he led), but I'd just like to be sure. Also on the topic of kill points (Well, victory points for killing stuff, but everyone I know still calls them kill points), how exactly do combat squads and kill points interact? Is each combat squad a kill point, or do you have to kill both squads to get one kill point?

Why would I worry about losses? I found the whole thing hilarious and completely expected (well, maybe not the "no kills whatsoever" part, but that was so hilarious I didn't care). Heck, when I went in, what I asked was "anyone wanna crush a newbie?".

What matters is that I had fun, and learned a lot. Winning is overrated.

Edit: An odd question occurred to me. Is it possible to throw krak grenades at fliers?

[Tehnar]

Couple of things.

1) As meatshield said, you don't have a lot of models. Grey knights don't risk going that low without transports, and Eldar are not exactly grey knights. Also, you've skimped on troops, which is a big no-no when five out of six games you'll play will involve scoring units. I'd probably add some Dire Avengers or some more guardian jetbikes in there instead of that seer council. For that matter, at 1000 points, your farseer is getting pricy for something as fragile as he is. Also, each of your units is small, which means they can easily be picked off
2) Just to be clear, Codex powers are an all or nothing deal. You take powers from your codex, or you roll in the Big Black Book. You can't mix and match. If you're going to be swapping out both of your farseer's powers for BBB power, that's fine. But Fortune and Prescience doesn't work. Frankly, Fortune and Doom are solid enough to keep unless you need to worry about battle brothers (because you have Tau or Dark Eldar Allies)
3) This is just list writing stuff, but elites go right after the HQ (except in Necrons and Codex Marines, who go HQ, Troops, Elites...). Also, the farseer's wargear should probably be condensed to one line, maybe with a second line for the jetbike. The Psychic Powers should also only take one line.

1) I really want to try the mobility of the Farseer and Lock unit, and I don't think they are fragile at all. At the very least they have a 4++ rerollable due to fortune, and I really think I can pick my fights with them (and I think they would do well against a non assault focused unit). They are also my biggest way to deal with any vehicles/walkers.

I know Im a bit short on troops, but except for the rangers they all seem woefully subpar. Well until I get to 10 wraithguard, which seem to be solid.

I did a mistake with calculating the Seer council points, they sit at 290 instead of 320. So that frees up 30 points.

2) Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Since I can't mix and match I would rather drop guide and spirit stones and rock out with just fortune. That would save me 40 points. Since most everything I have in the list wounds on a 2+ anyway, I don't think Doom is needed.

With the above savings, that leaves me with 70 points. Enough for 2 more wraithguard, or to have 2 units of 5 rangers for more troops.

Or perhaps to drop the wraithguard entirely (they are mostly here as something beefy, and to deal with terminators if they show up), and pick up a unit of shining spears instead with the leftover points going for troops.

[Squark]

1) I really want to try the mobility of the Farseer and Lock unit, and I don't think they are fragile at all. At the very least they have a 4++ rerollable due to fortune, and I really think I can pick my fights with them (and I think they would do well against a non assault focused unit). They are also my biggest way to deal with any vehicles/walkers.

I know Im a bit short on troops, but except for the rangers they all seem woefully subpar. Well until I get to 10 wraithguard, which seem to be solid.

I did a mistake with calculating the Seer council points, they sit at 290 instead of 320. So that frees up 30 points.

2) Thanks for pointing out my mistake. Since I can't mix and match I would rather drop guide and spirit stones and rock out with just fortune. That would save me 40 points. Since most everything I have in the list wounds on a 2+ anyway, I don't think Doom is needed.

With the above savings, that leaves me with 70 points. Enough for 2 more wraithguard, or to have 2 units of 5 rangers for more troops.

Or perhaps to drop the wraithguard entirely (they are mostly here as something beefy, and to deal with terminators if they show up), and pick up a unit of shining spears instead with the leftover points going for troops.

I wouldn't call Dire Avengers subpar, personally. But anyway, let's look at how you'd do in the standard missions.

Crusade: 6 Rangers will die the second someone points more than one flamer or a thunderfire cannon at them. Or if someone assaults them. As for the jetbikes... If your opponent can't kill 3 Space Marines equivilents, even if they move quickly... Your opponent's list has issues. And with no troops left, you're trying desperately to table your opponent, or you've lost.

Purge the Alien: I see a large number of small units, and only the seer council is especially durable (And that's subject to the whims of Murphy, especially against Space Wolves, who still have an effective psychic defense). I don't see this being winnable.

Big Guns Never Tire: You now have 3 scoring units... but 3 Dark Reapers are unlikely to last more than a turn once your opponent starts shooting them. Feels like Crusade again.

The Scouring: With no fast attack units, you have only 2 scoring units trying to hold six objectives, and they're both fragile. Might be worse for you than crusade.

The Emperor's Will: Your rangers might actually be able to hold your objective here... unless Necron Wraiths, a Thunderfire cannon, or something in a drop pod shows up. Probably your strongest match.

The Relic: Ew. You have only one unit that stands a chance of getting to the relic (the jetbikes), and the second they have it, they die, because they're now just 3 Marines sitting in the open.

Rangers are nice, but you need troops that can actually move forward and claim objectives. For that, you're going to want Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent or enough Guardian Jetbikes to actually survive (Multiple units of 6+, in other words)

[Erloas]

Well I'll start with the fact that I didn't reply earlier because there are no suggestions I would make with this list that wouldn't change it almost completely.

1) I really want to try the mobility of the Farseer and Lock unit, and I don't think they are fragile at all. At the very least they have a 4++ rerollable due to fortune, and I really think I can pick my fights with them (and I think they would do well against a non assault focused unit). They are also my biggest way to deal with any vehicles/walkers.

They are pretty survivable, but everything dies with enough pointed at it which is your primary issue, not enough targets. With their AS they are better then terminators with the re-roll, dieing to 1 in 9 shots, however without it they die to 1 in 4 shots, so they are going to average out about the same as terminators.
And yes, the singing spears are great against vehicles but they are kind of crappy against everything else, sure they wound on a 2+, but everything str6 does as well (practically speaking) and str6+ is pretty easy to find, so its not all that great. Limited shots and no armor penetration means they aren't going to kill much. Also Destructor requires you to get close, and while it might wipe out a lot of easy to kill models its going to put you into a bad place most of the time. Anything they are good at killing are going to be units that are so much cheaper they'll have you outnumbered by 5 to 1.

While it is true you might be able to "pick your fights" that only really means something if you can pick a fight away from the rest of the enemy. If they don't spread out there is no way you can survive long when the rest of their army shoots you after you take out that one target. Also past a 500pt game I would never have 25% of my points in a single unit. The council might be a better option around 1500, probably closer to 2000; when you have a lot more points to work with and a lot of other potential threats on the table.

I know Im a bit short on troops, but except for the rangers they all seem woefully subpar. Well until I get to 10 wraithguard, which seem to be solid.

I found the rangers to be sub-par. In theory they are good but they end up being so expensive you never have enough to really cause most things to worry and if you're going to take rangers take the Pathfinder upgrade, they need the extra cover save and scout move to survive and they need the extra chance of hitting AP1/2. Against terminators or MCs they shine but not against much else, a unit of dire avengers will kill anything MEQ or less much faster then rangers. I love the jetbikes, and dire avengers and guardians, as much as they are maligned, have served me very well so far. The guardians have the advantage of being cheap, you could have 30 models on the table for the cost of your seer council, 30 models that can move and shoot their heavy weapon as well as hold objectives. They also have the advantage of often being overlooked by your opponent.

With the above savings, that leaves me with 70 points. Enough for 2 more wraithguard, or to have 2 units of 5 rangers for more troops.
Or perhaps to drop the wraithguard entirely (they are mostly here as something beefy, and to deal with terminators if they show up), and pick up a unit of shining spears instead with the leftover points going for troops.

Let me make sure I'm reading the last part of your list right... do you have 3 units of dark reapers at 3 models each? Because if so then you are probably about 300 points over already. I don't remember all the costs but just 3 models I think is 105 points before any upgrades. And lately I have been running mine without the exarch, he is good but he increases the cost of the unit too much too fast to the point where you are better off with more normal models most of the time. I might bring one if I have a full 5 model squad but probably not in every unit if I had 2-3 units.

It also doesn't look like your jetbikes have the shuriken cannon upgrade and you should always have that, its the only reason to take jetbikes really.

Wraithguard I've never used, too expensive for the models as well as too many points. I could see how they would be good, but I think its also a point where you need a larger army first. And on foot they are simply going to be too easy to avoid, at least with a small unit give them a wave serpent so they can get where they need to be to kill stuff. They might work too in a very elite army with wraithlords, multiple units of wraithguards and a good spread of warlocks with wraithsight. At this point I don't see how they are functioning any different then fire dragons and fire dragons are a lot cheaper.

[Mattarias, King.]

Good on you, thereaper! Too many people I know play 40k and forget to have fun. I think I've maybe won twice this year, but it's still fun.

On that note, working on a new purist SoB list, gonna post it up here when I'm done.

6e is looking pretty decent for us Sisters players. Haven't played it yet though. Oughta be fun.

[HalfTangible]

It's really kind of amazing how hard it is to build a 500 point list >.> And how much I don't care that it sucks once it's done...

Blood Angels - 502 points

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Reclusiarch 155 (130 base)
-Jump Pack

Assault Marines 225 (100)
+5 Marines
Meltagun
Powerfist

Scouts 122 (75)
Sniper Rifles
+2 Scouts
Camo Cloaks

Basic battle plan: The assault marines will combat squad. The Reclusiarch will run with the meltagun-carrying half. The 7 scouts will park on an objective faaaar away from the enemy and apply far-ranged support.

[Renegade Paladin]

You shouldn't post wargear costs; GW will come down on this forum like the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

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Company command squad - 50

Veteran squad - 70

Veteran squad - 80
-2 grenade launchers

Leman Russ battle tank - 150

Leman Russ battle tank - 150

I'd tell you the plan, but it's rather blatantly obvious.

[HalfTangible]

You shouldn't post wargear costs; GW will come down on this forum like the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

I did it to avoid confusion over unit costs what are you talking about?

[Tome]

I did it to avoid confusion over unit costs what are you talking about?

If you post the costs for the individual upgrades and bits of wargear, GW starts sending out their laywers. They're generally okay so long as you don't do that or post large bits of rules text, but cross the line and some folks could get in some nasty legal trouble.

Just write the total cost for the unit and leave off the prices for the upgrades and wargear, 'kay? Take a look at how everyone else posts lists, they do it that way for a reason.

[HalfTangible]

If you post the costs for the individual upgrades and bits of wargear, GW starts sending out their laywers.

... WHY?!?!

[Tychris1]

... WHY?!?!

........

Because that means people don't need to buy their books and get the info for free. If people post alot of the rules in books, or points cost then people don't need to buy their books because the info is readily available on the internet for free. It makes complete sense really, as they are a business (Even if the reasons for people wishing to circumvent the need to buy Codex's are reasonable, because I'll be damned they aren't expensive).

[Cheesegear]

So, now that 40K isn't even trying to hide the fact that it's a shooty game, and a couple of months have passed that people are working out how many viable builds they can pull out of their Codecies, we're now looking at something like this;

T1; Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Space Wolves
T2; Blood Angels, Codex Marines, Dark Angels*, Necrons, Orks
T3; Black Templars, Chaos Marines*, Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Tau
T4; Chaos Daemons, Dark Eldar, Tyranids
* With their 4th Ed. Codecies

Remember, this list is now about how 'powerful' lists are (although you could certainly read it that way). This list is about how many lists you can make and still be at least a decent list. In very, very simple terms, you could read it as a ratio of how many bad units there are in a Codex which limits your choices. This also factors in points limit. There are a few units in the game that aren't good in low points, but are exceptional when you can afford them. And also there are cheap units that can be really powerful in 1000 point lists when your opponent doesn't have the tools to defeat them, but lose a lot of their power as soon as your opponent has points to spare to bring the counter.

T1. Unless you're trying really hard, you can't really make a bad list out of these guys. The good options in the Codex scream at you saying "I'm really good! PICK ME!" Foot? Mech? Hybrid? Doesn't matter. It's still going to be pretty good.
T2. You've still got at least two fairly competitive lists you can make. But, this time, a lot of the good units in the Codex are only useful if you take other things to pair with them and you may have at least one 'required' unit that you should probably include no matter what list you make.
T3. Several bad units in the Codex. And probably locked into a mono-build depending on who you ask. That doesn't mean that mono-builds are bad, it just means you have extremely limited options and you can't really deviate from the 'standard'.
T4. Locked into a mono-build. And even then, the mono-build is pretty bad. Some people (not this author, let's be clear, but I've heard and read it) believe these armies to be 'unplayable' in even a half-competitive environment.