Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Anderlith]

Dangerous speculation? In my Dresden thread? It's more likely than you think!

Ooo, I wonder if any dragons are in Demonreach. I wonder if the Questing Beast is in Demonreach!

No but I bet Merlin is. Some versions of the tale match with being imprisoned in something akin to Demonreach

BTW Does anyone else notice some of the ways Dresden is similar to Merlin? & I don't mean the obvious stuff, more like how they both had young female apprentices that are a bit crazy?

I wouldn't put it past the plot for him to do some serious advising to Marcone & maybe even giving him a Sword. Not that I'm saying that this will happen, just that it would fit

[The Glyphstone]

...Marcone with a Sword? Now that's a scary thought.

Assuming he's royalty-descended and eligible, though, let's explore this crazy idea - would he wield Amoracchius (Love) or Fidelacchius (Faith)?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Bah Marcone with a sword would ruin the character. What a terrible crime to take the man that's going to own the world with nary a single bit of magic and make him into one of the most powerful magic users around. Terrible.

[Anderlith]

The guy may be corrupt & all, but he almost seems to make sense as a wielder of Amoracchius, he actually & feels responsible for the death of innocents. Plus if they didn't mind the Red Court corrupted Susan wielding it for a bit it shouldn't mind a mobster too much.

I'm just speculating here, I'm only noting the posibility. Personally I'd love to see him contend with every single big bad in the Dresdenverse sans-sorcery.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Hmm I think I have a succint way to sum my views on mere possiblity:

Isn't it possible?

Sure is possible, suuure is.

Not to rag too much but your speculation is less anything we have to go on and more taking two random threads of the story and tying them together in a big knot. This is actually most fandom "speculation" actually.

And fanfics too.

[Anderlith]

I strongly oppose fanfics of any sort

[GenericMook]

Marcone doesn't strike me as the sort of person that could actually wield Amoracchius. While the Swords don't seem to be particularly discriminatory (relatively speaking), Marcone doesn't strike me as anywhere close to Michael or Susan (during Changes). The character development required for him to even come close as a candidate for Amoracchius would ruin the character already established during the past 14 books.

Sure, we know that he places limits and stuff on his operations, but that's less from love and more along the lines of his own personal code. I really doubt that he'll be even coming close to holding any of the Swords.

After all, one of his big strengths is being a vanilla mortal that's pretty clued-in to the whole supernatural world. Giving him a Sword is only going to diminish that.

Still, I'm pretty curious as to who is going to end up wielding the Swords.

[Lamech]

Yeah, sending Ferrovax to demonreach seems like a low percentage move even if he was infected. Things go wrong, and demonreach eats Ferrovax for breakfast. Things go right, and Ferrovax gets obliterated by Banefire. If Nemesis has Mr. Ferro in its hand, it probably doesn't want to throw him away.

[Mauve Shirt]

So Soras, you don't like being a member of a fandom? I enjoy wild-ass guessing. It gives me DFRPG plot ideas.
Now that TWO main characters are Winter Court, infected Ferrovax vs. Winter seems like an incredibly plausible book plot to me. It's about Harry's usual villain power level, and it would teach him how to use Demonreach as a prison.

Marcone with a sword? The sword might accept him. His care for Persephone might be enough. Imagine the dramas if Marcone and Murphy had to work together as Knights! But I'd much prefer him to be badass normal for the remainder of the series.

No but I bet Merlin is. Some versions of the tale match with being imprisoned in something akin to Demonreach

BTW Does anyone else notice some of the ways Dresden is similar to Merlin? & I don't mean the obvious stuff, more like how they both had young female apprentices that are a bit crazy?

Merlin trapped in a prison of his own making? Perhaps that's what gave him the idea for Demonreach, but if he's so cool he wouldn't allow himself to be trapped by it. It's not like the Island itself would trap him anyway, he's the warden.
Also MERLIN IS COWL BECAUSE THEY BOTH HAVE CRAZY FEMALE APPRENTICES. And he wants to destroy the council he created because it's corrupt!

[Eldan]

Merlin is a time-travelling genderbent Molly! Maeve is her crazy female apprentice!

[Mauve Shirt]

Merlin is a time-travelling genderbent Molly! Maeve is her crazy female apprentice!

Oh come on, that second bit is just ridiculous.

[GenericMook]

Merlin is a time-travelling genderbent Molly! Maeve is her crazy female apprentice!

Don't forget!

Mister is his father!

[Soras Teva Gee]

Merlin is a time-travelling genderbent Molly!

Not Merlin:

Spoiler

Show

What.

They're both blond and made of win. Molly's already connected to Ex-CAIbur anyways.

Which also makes Harry as Merlin a lot more sensible.

[The Glyphstone]

Marcone doesn't strike me as the sort of person that could actually wield Amoracchius. While the Swords don't seem to be particularly discriminatory (relatively speaking), Marcone doesn't strike me as anywhere close to Michael or Susan (during Changes). The character development required for him to even come close as a candidate for Amoracchius would ruin the character already established during the past 14 books.

Sure, we know that he places limits and stuff on his operations, but that's less from love and more along the lines of his own personal code. I really doubt that he'll be even coming close to holding any of the Swords.

After all, one of his big strengths is being a vanilla mortal that's pretty clued-in to the whole supernatural world. Giving him a Sword is only going to diminish that.

Still, I'm pretty curious as to who is going to end up wielding the Swords.

Agreed. If there was a Sword of Honor, he'd be a shoo-in, but he doesn't exhibit Love, Hope, or Faith to any noticeable degree.

[SmartAlec]

Had picked up the idea from somewhere that Thomas might end up wielding Amoraccius. He's suffered in the name of love and doing the right thing, he's a good swordfighter and he's the son of a king (the White King, admittedly, but maybe he'd still count).

I might already have mentioned this, too, but I had a feeling that Mac was Merlin. After a lifetime of battling terrifying, nightmarish monsters, he'd finally constructed his great prison and then thought to himself 'that's enough; I can't take much more, I've given all I have to give' and retired in nearby Chicago to open a bar. Certainly explains why his bar is neutral territory; it'd be the least Mab could do, to ensure his retirement remained peaceful.

[datalaughing]

Agreed. If there was a Sword of Honor, he'd be a shoo-in, but he doesn't exhibit Love, Hope, or Faith to any noticeable degree.

Does faith in himself count?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Let's not confuse a few principles derived from a personal feeling of debt with anything actually resembling morality of Marcone's part. He's certainly not beyond redemption but wielding any sort of similar Sword of the Cross would require Marcone to repent his sins in some way... and just as importantly stop doing them.

More then that though the Knight's entire operating methodology/philosophy/theology is simply anathema to guys like Marcone, and most of the Dresdenverse. People like Marcone, Mab, the White Council, and Vadderung are all "Big Picture" in thinking. Varying degrees of d-baggery sure, but they all are in it for the long haul. They have a goal, prioritize who gets saved when and whom is an acceptable sacrifice to get there. That the variable [child] gets sorted highest in the lot does not change that.

Marcone when confronted with Dresden seeking to rescue a child provides and coldly asks about for what purpose the child was taken for. He coldly tolerates idea like children in sexual slavery. Sure if its right in front of him he'll do something but he's already given up on the idea that everyone even those he values highest can be all be saved.

Ask yourself if roles were different what would Michael do if he had Marcone's power? Michael would muster all his forces and influence and lead the charge. What's that he's taking a terrible risk with his own power base that could impact the ability of his organization to gradually eliminate the whole practice of exploiting children once they had power enough to? Marcone would regret that choice but make it, kids die everyday afterall. You already know what Michael would say: Doesn't matter, its the right thing to do.

That's why there is no sword for Marcone. Or most of the cast for that matter.

[Philistine]

Does faith in himself count?

While it could certainly still go either way - or even go different ways at different times - I see Fidelacchius as more "The Sword of Keeping Faith" than "The Sword of Having Faith." See: Murphy's reaffirmation of her oath to protect the people of Chicago, which, yes, kept her from taking up the sword when it was first offered to her, but also expressly confirmed that she was a suitable candidate to wield it.

[The Glyphstone]

And Marcone is nothing if not loyal to his people, at almost every level of his organization.

I still think it's a crackpot theory, but that'd be the most logical crack to follow.

[Anderlith]

Let's not confuse a few principles derived from a personal feeling of debt with anything actually resembling morality of Marcone's part. He's certainly not beyond redemption but wielding any sort of similar Sword of the Cross would require Marcone to repent his sins in some way... and just as importantly stop doing them.

More then that though the Knight's entire operating methodology/philosophy/theology is simply anathema to guys like Marcone, and most of the Dresdenverse. People like Marcone, Mab, the White Council, and Vadderung are all "Big Picture" in thinking. Varying degrees of d-baggery sure, but they all are in it for the long haul. They have a goal, prioritize who gets saved when and whom is an acceptable sacrifice to get there. That the variable [child] gets sorted highest in the lot does not change that.

Marcone when confronted with Dresden seeking to rescue a child provides and coldly asks about for what purpose the child was taken for. He coldly tolerates idea like children in sexual slavery. Sure if its right in front of him he'll do something but he's already given up on the idea that everyone even those he values highest can be all be saved.

Ask yourself if roles were different what would Michael do if he had Marcone's power? Michael would muster all his forces and influence and lead the charge. What's that he's taking a terrible risk with his own power base that could impact the ability of his organization to gradually eliminate the whole practice of exploiting children once they had power enough to? Marcone would regret that choice but make it, kids die everyday afterall. You already know what Michael would say: Doesn't matter, its the right thing to do.

That's why there is no sword for Marcone. Or most of the cast for that matter.

Most knights in medieval era had more in common with today's gangsters than they had with King Arthur. The Swords oppose the Denarians, they don't crusade against all evil. Marcone would be a very good warrior against the Denarians.

[The Glyphstone]

Most knights in medieval era had more in common with today's gangsters than they had with King Arthur. The Swords oppose the Denarians, they don't crusade against all evil. Marcone would be a very good warrior against the Denarians.

Most knights, yes. Presumably not the ones that wielded the Swords. Between Shiro, Sanya, and Michael, it seems that Knights of the Cross embody the legends of chivalry rather than the reality. You don't have to be a relentless crusader against all evil, but you have to be a seriously good person, and that level of 'good' tends to have 'crusader against evil' as a common secondary trait. Marcone is not a good person, so even if he's a devoted enemy of the Denarians, he's not a Sword candidate.

[SmartAlec]

Given that Michael and Sanya seem to spend a lot of time doing other things than hunting the Denarians, I wonder if opposing the Denarians also includes fighting Nicodemus's claim that 'apocalypse is a state of mind' by actively promoting the ideals of love, hope and faith whenever possible.

[BRC]

Marcone would be a very effective warrior against Evil. He's intelligent, charismatic, driven, and skilled.

However, if all it took was effectiveness, then all the Swords would be wielded by Wizards.

No. In the end, Marcone is a selfish person. He's much better at it than most people, he realizes that stability is better than chaos, even if it means giving up short-term gain. He is territorial, and there are things far worse than him seeking to move in on his territory. He's got a sense of morality and a personal code, however he does NOT have the good of all mankind at heart.


The Knights, above all else, are Selfless, good people driven by a desire to protect those who cannot protect themselves. That is NOT Marcone

[Soras Teva Gee]

Most knights, yes. Presumably not the ones that wielded the Swords. Between Shiro, Sanya, and Michael, it seems that Knights of the Cross embody the legends of chivalry rather than the reality. You don't have to be a relentless crusader against all evil, but you have to be a seriously good person, and that level of 'good' tends to have 'crusader against evil' as a common secondary trait. Marcone is not a good person, so even if he's a devoted enemy of the Denarians, he's not a Sword candidate.

Pretty much my thoughts, the Nickelheads are "knights" too formally under the Accords IIRC.

Given that Michael and Sanya seem to spend a lot of time doing other things than hunting the Denarians, I wonder if opposing the Denarians also includes fighting Nicodemus's claim that 'apocalypse is a state of mind' by actively promoting the ideals of love, hope and faith whenever possible.

I suspect that its exactly now that you say it.

Interesting question I kinda wonder who came first the Swords or the Coins. I mean both gained significance on the same day but when did those relics get set in opposition. Maybe the Denarians were created in response to and going forth and doing good was the original mission. Nothing to say but the the creation of both is sorta there to be answered.

I be surprised if it is when Nick shows up next book though. I just hope Sanya makes it.

[Anderlith]

Interesting question I kinda wonder who came first the Swords or the Coins. I mean both gained significance on the same day but when did those relics get set in opposition. Maybe the Denarians were created in response to and going forth and doing good was the original mission. Nothing to say but the the creation of both is sorta there to be answered.

I be surprised if it is when Nick shows up next book though. I just hope Sanya makes it.

A fallen angel tipped the scales, (creating the Denarians) & then the Archangels were allowed to balance it.

[Lord Seth]

Random thought: I've decided to re-read the series from the beginning, and thought it might be interesting to post my thoughts on the books as I go. Should I start a new topic for that or just do it in this one?

[Sinfonian]

Random thought: I've decided to re-read the series from the beginning, and thought it might be interesting to post my thoughts on the books as I go. Should I start a new topic for that or just do it in this one?

That strikes me as something that should be in a separate topic. Just in case there's more discussion to be had here (which is possible). Also, you're likely to bring in people who haven't had a chance to read this book yet/might not have read any of the books at all. A "Let's Read" type topic from the beginning (not what I think you're doing, but close enough) will garner more attention than a topic about the 14th book in the series.

[Gryffon]

Actually, that's exactly how the last Dresden thread started. In general, the mods prefer a single thread per topic.

[Soras Teva Gee]

A fallen angel tipped the scales, (creating the Denarians) & then the Archangels were allowed to balance it.

That would be the most typical relationship. I kinda wonder about that though. We can make an inferred guess that our last bit of demonic interference was from Anduriel, since it matches his nominally known manifestation and he is known to have agency on Earth.

Most the Fallen are said to not be able to exert power on Earth. So how did they create the coins if they can't act? Well maybe they can and the restriction has always been more balance of power like then that they actually can't.

I think the reality may be a bit more complex. Then again citing Kusanagi says to me Jim didn't nessecarily quite think out this bit of the mythos. Being both a katana and I'm pretty sure too young. Not for Yamato Takeru but Susanoo and Orochi should I think be BC. Though wouldn't be the first time the series has played fast and loose with things, Excalibur is distinct (most of the time) from the Sword in the Stone in legends.

[The Glyphstone]

Or just flexible with chronology. Kusanagi was also reforged at least once, so there's no guarantee it was always a katana, and/or maybe it was created after the other two.