Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[lord_khaine]

I could see that happening, because hands up, who here believe Harry will get a traditional happy ending?

[Aidan305]

I could see that happening, because hands up, who here believe Harry will get a traditional happy ending?

Despite everything that happens to the guy, I can see him getting a non-traditional happy ending.

A Traditional happy ending though? Nah.

[Silver Swift]

I could see that happening, because hands up, who here believe Harry will get a traditional happy ending?

*Raises hand*
*Looks around*

What? It could happen.

One of the things I like best about Robin Hobbs books is that at the end of every series the main characters get their happy endings. She makes them go through hell and back for it (often due to gratuitous use of idiot balls, but still), but as a reader you know that, at the end of the story, there is a happy ending waiting for them. It's what gets me through her books despite the aforementioned idiot balls.

I could totally see Harry, after cancelling the apocalypse, settling down with Murphy or Molly to become Chicago's local wizard. Maybe reopening his private detective shop and protecting the city from supernatural threats.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't know about traditional per say but happy ending... yeah I'm good for that.

And underlying theme of the series is that sure lots of bad crap does happen, but it just happens. You do get over it, maybe not tomorrow but you do.

I'm pushing for a knight and lady ending personally.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

To be honest, I think I can most foresee a "Carry On My Wayward Son" ending. (Before you ask--no, I don't watch Supernatural; I'm just pegging the song because of the feel it emotes.) Harry's pattern is getting entangled in all this crap--he's gonna come to a point where he saves the world and is finally able to put it all to rest and get some blasted peace for a while.

I can't quite peg it, though, because the Changes-Ghost Story-Cold Days trilogy is the literal midpoint of the series. So I can't quite predict it from this point.

[Mauve Shirt]

My sister suggests that Jim hasn't been truthful when he says that Harry will pick up all offered powers before the apocalyptic trilogy.
Has Jim ever broken a WoJ before?

[123456789blaaa]

My sister suggests that Jim hasn't been truthful when he says that Harry will pick up all offered powers before the apocalyptic trilogy.
Has Jim ever broken a WoJ before?

Can I get a source for that WoJ?

[BRC]

Can I get a source for that WoJ?

How do you define "Offered Power", because Grevane offered to train Harry, and that seems to be pretty much off the table.

Lets see what "Power" has been offered.

Marcone extended offers of employment a few times, that's a form of power, or at least it was at the time.

Taking up The Coin.

Using the Darkhallow.

Offers of teaching in exchange for servitude from any number of baddies.

[123456789blaaa]

How do you define "Offered Power", because Grevane offered to train Harry, and that seems to be pretty much off the table.

Lets see what "Power" has been offered.

Marcone extended offers of employment a few times, that's a form of power, or at least it was at the time.

Taking up The Coin.

Using the Darkhallow.

Offers of teaching in exchange for servitude from any number of baddies.

I know that he's been offered a ton of power lots of times. What I'm asking for is a source for a WoJ that says he'll take up all those offers before the BAT.

[datalaughing]

One of the things I like best about Robin Hobbs books is that at the end of every series the main characters get their happy endings.

Say what?! At the end of the Farseer Trilogy

Spoiler

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Fitz is miserable and alone, having lost everything and everyone he cared about except his wolf.

Not much of a happy ending.

[Eldan]

Say what?! At the end of the Farseer Trilogy

Spoiler

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Fitz is miserable and alone, having lost everything and everyone he cared about except his wolf.

Not much of a happy ending.

Yeah. The Farseer Trilogy really did not end on a happy note for anyone. Half the cast dead and the rest heartbroken. Fitz really needed a second trilogy for his happy ending.

But then, he's just about one of the most broken characters in fiction period. The universe loves to trample him.

[Silver Swift]

Say what?! At the end of the Farseer Trilogy

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Fitz is miserable and alone, having lost everything and everyone he cared about except his wolf.

Not much of a happy ending.

I knew I should have been more specific.

Spoiler: Tawny Man Trilogy

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I consider the Tawny Man trilogy to be part of the same series as the Farseer Trilogy (because they are both about the same characters) and at the end of that Fitz basically gets a fairy tale ending.

Every main character gets their happy ending, eventually.

[Avilan the Grey]

Not sure if this has come up, but in Norse mythology, Odin leads the Wild Hunt.

Just saying.

[Rakaydos]

Not sure if this has come up, but in Norse mythology, Odin leads the Wild Hunt.

Just saying.

Apparently he still hangs out with them from time to time.

[Avilan the Grey]

Okay.. Going to start the series over, since I now have the ebooks for all of them.


Anyway... Haven't read all the posts here but have a few thoughts.

First of all... I feel truly sorry for Molly. However I am having enough faith in Jim to not scream "Ruined Forever!" despite Molly being my favorite character.

(FYI:
Molly
Mouse
Mab
Bob
Harry

...are my top 5 in that order.)

Anyway...

Fey:

The percived imbalance some of you see in the courts is nothing of the sort. It's just like IRL, not all checks and balances are equal. You might have great warriors, but no ability to have long supply lines. The enemy has no troops but tons of money and can hire mercenaries at a whim. Etc.
Basically Summer and Winter are in perfect (or SHOULD be in perfect) balance, not because every redcap has a wil o'whisp to counter him, but because, as the book says, the balances and checks are in place thanks to the war against Ie Ie Whatafrakk and the rest of the gang outside the gates.

It was great to dive into the mind of Mab. The two lines in the whole book that truly stood out to me was first Harry's order to Demonreach to imprison her if she shot him; it genuinely surprised her. The second was the fact that after her and Harry had their talk, where she points out that she, too, was human once, she takes Sarissa and Molly for some "gentle instructions". Her word to Harry, no doubt, and I wonder how the rest of her court would react if they found out she actually tutored the summer lady. And her own new "daughter" too, without torturing or trying to kill them every hour on the hour...

Speaking of that; the mantle switch has two effects that might be very good, one major, one minor:

Major: Sarissa is now, as of medieval law, basically a randsom paid to Mab's sister. A replacement of blood by blood. Worst case, Titania will aknowledge her as a full payment. Best scenario is that the sisters will start talking again.

Minor: Molly will be an even better guide to modern pop culture than Sarissa. Imagine Mab sitting through a Dr Who marathon?

Now, speaking about sisters: I wonder if history repeats itself?
If Mab and Titania, from the beginning, were twins? And the change of mantles then was caused by similar circumstances? It is an interesting thought. I cannot see two twin sisters choose to end up on opposite sides of the chess board without outside influence.

Also, did the mantles from the old queens pass to them at Hastings? Mab is, supposedly, almost 1000 years old... Were the Fey involved in the conquest of England?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Minor: Molly will be an even better guide to modern pop culture than Sarissa. Imagine Mab sitting through a Dr Who marathon?

Oh lord I hope not, Mab's bad enough let's not warp her further with nerd subculture.

[Avilan the Grey]

Oh lord I hope not, Mab's bad enough let's not warp her further with nerd subculture.

Oh, lets. Lets.

I would love to have her imput on Flemeth, for one...

[Socratov]

so, you are proposing we put an entity with blue and orange morality through a geek education session on pop culture on a series that features an abstract form of entity, who at best comes of as slightly odd and at worst completely cloud cuckoolander, using a kind of absolute power to change the course of: history, future, causality and other timey, wimey, wibbly, wobbly stuff?

yeah, fantastic idea. Let's make Mab even more genre savvy

Spoiler: disclaimer

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the links used in this post refer to TvTropes. This poster (i.e. Socratov) is not responsible for lost time, productivity or any other consequence of visiting TvTropes.com and related pages. If you have any negative effects due to clicking the links in this post it's on you, only you and nobody but you. I wonder if people read these spoilers...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I also feel the need to point out that, unlike wizards, the Fae are not bound by the Laws of Magic. So time travel is totally kosher for them, if they develop the ability to do so.

[Avilan the Grey]

so, you are proposing we put an entity with blue and orange morality through a geek education session on pop culture on a series that features an abstract form of entity, who at best comes of as slightly odd and at worst completely cloud cuckoolander, using a kind of absolute power to change the course of: history, future, causality and other timey, wimey, wibbly, wobbly stuff?

Thing is, I think the blue and orange morality is starting to fade. It's less... weird, and more... how we treat other species. In combination with mortal flashbacks, it seems (among those who has mantles. Lesser fey seem to be basically elementals of "hate", "hunt", "blood" etc. And some of them are not much smarter than animals anyway).

Basically, I don't blame a tiger for trying to eat me, but I feel no moral qualms of killing it if it does.

[Lamech]

So here is a question: Going against the current of time is against the laws. But what about damming the current? Or diverting some? If instead of personally going against the current, but instead I engage in large scale tampering can that get me a pass on the 6th law?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So here is a question: Going against the current of time is against the laws. But what about damming the current? Or diverting some? If instead of personally going against the current, but instead I engage in large scale tampering can that get me a pass on the 6th law?

Do you remember Morgan the Warden?

[GloatingSwine]

So here is a question: Going against the current of time is against the laws. But what about damming the current? Or diverting some? If instead of personally going against the current, but instead I engage in large scale tampering can that get me a pass on the 6th law?

Enforcement of the laws of magic appears to run on the maxim that if it resembles an aquatic bird of any sort, it is a duck, no matter the five signed affadavits and testimony of it's dear mother that it is, in fact, a goose.

[Lvl45DM!]

Thing is, I think the blue and orange morality is starting to fade. It's less... weird, and more... how we treat other species. In combination with mortal flashbacks, it seems (among those who has mantles. Lesser fey seem to be basically elementals of "hate", "hunt", "blood" etc. And some of them are not much smarter than animals anyway).

Basically, I don't blame a tiger for trying to eat me, but I feel no moral qualms of killing it if it does.

Theres still some hints of cerulean and tangerine morality floating around. Redcap being more offended at his hat getting touched than his knee broken, the obligation of debt, Cat Sith not being evil just hyperviolent despite clearly intelligent. Hell I found Mother Winter and Titania trying to kill Harry despite it being against their interests, even though they KNEW that, a form of it since I got the feeling they couldn't choose anything different. You upset Summer, you wound Winter, they will destroy you. Same with the Hunt. Erl and Kringle didn't KNOW Harry could pull off the beat down. They were risking killing him cos he had to earn it. Sounds really friggin stupid and weird to me

[hamlet]

Enforcement of the laws of magic appears to run on the maxim that if it resembles an aquatic bird of any sort, it is a duck, no matter the five signed affadavits and testimony of it's dear mother that it is, in fact, a goose.

You can't quite blame them for it, though, considering they're actually more than a little right. Black magic is not something that one can just dip into without consequences.

[Avilan the Grey]

Theres still some hints of cerulean and tangerine morality floating around. Redcap being more offended at his hat getting touched than his knee broken, the obligation of debt, Cat Sith not being evil just hyperviolent despite clearly intelligent. Hell I found Mother Winter and Titania trying to kill Harry despite it being against their interests, even though they KNEW that, a form of it since I got the feeling they couldn't choose anything different. You upset Summer, you wound Winter, they will destroy you. Same with the Hunt. Erl and Kringle didn't KNOW Harry could pull off the beat down. They were risking killing him cos he had to earn it. Sounds really friggin stupid and weird to me

Cat Sith is a cat. He has the intellect of a man (or better) but still has all the impulses and instincts of a cat. Psycho killer? Yes!
...Actually I take that back to a point. He is LESS psycho than a cat, because he kills, quickly. A housecat only kills quickly if it is starved. Otherwise BleadingScreamingPanicPlaytime ensues. Including making the prey THINK it has gotten away before catching it again, carefully not wounding it enough, so it can run away again...

Redcap? That's what I am saying about the "non-mantled" fey: They are more avatars or elementals of their nature, they don't take moral stances, they just follow their programming. Man has a choice, but the Redcap doesn't. He cannot help but do what he does, because it is purpose in the world. Lure innocent travellers and kill them. A human doing it would be a greater monster than a Redcap, because of the ability to choose NOT to.

[Lvl45DM!]

Cat Sith is a cat. He has the intellect of a man (or better) but still has all the impulses and instincts of a cat. Psycho killer? Yes!
...Actually I take that back to a point. He is LESS psycho than a cat, because he kills, quickly. A housecat only kills quickly if it is starved. Otherwise BleadingScreamingPanicPlaytime ensues. Including making the prey THINK it has gotten away before catching it again, carefully not wounding it enough, so it can run away again...

Redcap? That's what I am saying about the "non-mantled" fey: They are more avatars or elementals of their nature, they don't take moral stances, they just follow their programming. Man has a choice, but the Redcap doesn't. He cannot help but do what he does, because it is purpose in the world. Lure innocent travellers and kill them. A human doing it would be a greater monster than a Redcap, because of the ability to choose NOT to.

Call Cat Sith a cat to his face. I dare you. I double dog (heh) dare you. And you've made my point with Sith. He isn't a pure incarnation of hunting or hate or whatever. He's hateful and a hunter but he's intelligent and relatively free willed. He can't change his fundamental nature but he can still make choices. When Thomas insulted him Sith could've taken the slight as an attack, left, and taken it outta Tommys arse later. But Sith doesn't work precisely by our morals. Not antithetical just...skewed.

And Redcap might not be able to choose anything but be an evil **** but his priorities are skewed and weird and alien. Dude really cares about his hat. More than he cares about his leg. Thats weird especially since he can change hats. He has more than one. And he doesn't have to be such a tremendous bag of douche to Ace but he does, cos he just doesnt see family the way a human would. Not straightforward evil, just weird. Orange rather than black white or grey

[Avilan the Grey]

Call Cat Sith a cat to his face. I dare you. I double dog (heh) dare you. And you've made my point with Sith. He isn't a pure incarnation of hunting or hate or whatever. He's hateful and a hunter but he's intelligent and relatively free willed. He can't change his fundamental nature but he can still make choices. When Thomas insulted him Sith could've taken the slight as an attack, left, and taken it outta Tommys arse later. But Sith doesn't work precisely by our morals. Not antithetical just...skewed.

And Redcap might not be able to choose anything but be an evil **** but his priorities are skewed and weird and alien. Dude really cares about his hat. More than he cares about his leg. Thats weird especially since he can change hats. He has more than one. And he doesn't have to be such a tremendous bag of douche to Ace but he does, cos he just doesnt see family the way a human would. Not straightforward evil, just weird. Orange rather than black white or grey

Blue and Orange morality is hard to write. To me neither of these examples come off as "Blue or Orange", and more "LACK of morals". There is a difference.

As for Mr Sith: Actually, my point was that he is LESS Psycho than the normal, mortal housecat.

[Gryffon]

And Redcap might not be able to choose anything but be an evil **** but his priorities are skewed and weird and alien. Dude really cares about his hat. More than he cares about his leg. Thats weird especially since he can change hats. He has more than one. And he doesn't have to be such a tremendous bag of douche to Ace but he does, cos he just doesnt see family the way a human would. Not straightforward evil, just weird. Orange rather than black white or grey

I'd just like to point out that Redcap's name isn't Redleg. His hat isn't attire, it's his identity. Wounds can be healed, but if he's not wearing a red cap, then he's nobody.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'd just like to point out that Redcap's name isn't Redleg. His hat isn't attire, it's his identity. Wounds can be healed, but if he's not wearing a red cap, then he's nobody.

Yeah I think even for humans most people react more to humiliation then minor physical injury.