Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[Chen]

Now, this might be a little off topic, but I figure, this is the Dresden Files thread...

In Changes, I must say I was pretty disappointed by the performance of the Lords of Outer Night. They're implied to thirteen monstrously powerful beings, on par with Odin and the Winter and Summer Ladies. So each one is punching substantially above Harry's weight class. They clearly outrank Ariana Ortega, who is almost on-par with Harry as a Winter Knight. That's thirteen characters that each have the power to be a primary antagonist for a novel.

And yet they go down like chumps, and don't really do anything, except using their power in a way that forces Harry's hand and makes him have to use the curse. It's my biggest problem with the series as a whole; it feels like he could have used fewer of them, and made them have more presence Three or six would have been quite grand, for example. Three is the "Magic Number", and six is the next best number to thirteen for ominous implications. As it was, it seems like they were barely speed bumps.

I mean, at least, if you're going to have Odin, Harry, Leanansidhe, and a senior council member mixing it up with these demigod opponents, let us see a FIGHT.

(otherwise, the series is pretty dang brilliant, though.)

There weren't that many left to directly fight Harry at the top of the pyramid though. Bob was protecting Harry's mind to an extent and the Fidelacchius broke their spell. Ebenezer took out a good chunk of them when he blew up the pyramid they were standing on. I think there were 4 at the end, and they had Harry completely locked down. He shoved his will at the weakest one and at the same time Lea outright destroyed two of them (presumably wounding the others) which gave Harry enough time to incapacitate the Red King. While they have power, most of the big bads (that aren't outsiders) are still not that resilient in the Dresden Files. Hell Harry says he almost killed the Red King from down on the stadium floor with a blast of fire.

[Avilan the Grey]

There weren't that many left to directly fight Harry at the top of the pyramid though. Bob was protecting Harry's mind to an extent and the Fidelacchius broke their spell. Ebenezer took out a good chunk of them when he blew up the pyramid they were standing on. I think there were 4 at the end, and they had Harry completely locked down. He shoved his will at the weakest one and at the same time Lea outright destroyed two of them (presumably wounding the others) which gave Harry enough time to incapacitate the Red King. While they have power, most of the big bads (that aren't outsiders) are still not that resilient in the Dresden Files. Hell Harry says he almost killed the Red King from down on the stadium floor with a blast of fire.

I have a feeling the Lords Of Outer night, as powerful as they were, were posers. It is stated in the book that they worried that the REAL gods they pretended to be would come back.

[hamlet]

Well, it's been a little while since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure that Odin never said that each individual lord was on the same level as he was, just that all thirteen put together could pull a serious mental whammy that Harry wasn't able to do anything about and demonstrated just what a truly powerful being was capable of doing to him.

And do keep in mind that there was a lot of interference in that fight on all sides. No way in any sane world would Harry have been able to pull off what he did without some major players on the sidelines sticking their toes over the lines when and where they could unobtrusively. We only learn about a couple of them directly. I'm pretty sure there are more that we haven't learned about yet.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well, it's been a little while since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure that Odin never said that each individual lord was on the same level as he was, just that all thirteen put together could pull a serious mental whammy that Harry wasn't able to do anything about and demonstrated just what a truly powerful being was capable of doing to him.

Exactly. The LOONs were not as powerful as gods. They pretended to be gods, so those around them would THINK they are as strong as Odin...

[Aidan305]

And do keep in mind that there was a lot of interference in that fight on all sides. No way in any sane world would Harry have been able to pull off what he did without some major players on the sidelines sticking their toes over the lines when and where they could unobtrusively. We only learn about a couple of them directly. I'm pretty sure there are more that we haven't learned about yet.

Interference is putting it mildly. If not the Archangel Michael himself, then at the very least one of his underlings was guiding the Knights in that battle.

[Rakaydos]

So, how many "Nexus of events" has there been so far?

It is implied that WW2 was a nexus of events revolving around Kemmeler, his disciples, the Wardens, Justine DuMore, the Word of Kemmeler and of course, the RL fate of nations. (Given her philosophy, Maggie LeFey was probably sticking her hands in as well)

Bianca's Party (Grave Peril) is mentioned to be a nexus, but we still dont know what everything that went down there means. (The war with the Red court, of cource, Morgana's Athame for Amoractus, sure, but we dont know Cowl's role beyond actually handing the Nemisis-tainted dagger, the Eldest Dragon's glowing treasure (Arc of the Covenent? or just gold) and whatever it paid for, Mavra's presence, ect)

The Darkhallow (Dead Beat) and Aurora's Treason (Summer Knight) are borderline cases- as they failed to fundamentally change the power balance they way they intended. Morgan's Trial (Small Favor) might be considered the Good Guy version, in that despite catching Wizard Peabody, there is still a traitor on the council.

The Mayan Temple (Changes) was a definate nexus, with all kinds of major players taking a role.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It is implied that WW2 was a nexus of events revolving around Kemmeler, his disciples, the Wardens, Justine DuMore, the Word of Kemmeler and of course, the RL fate of nations. (Given her philosophy, Maggie LeFey was probably sticking her hands in as well)

Hmm I'm sorry but wasn't that WWI and not WWII?

And the White Council smack down was in the 60s wasn't it?

Also where did you get "nexus of events" from.

[Mauve Shirt]

I believe that's the term used to describe Harry's weird birth?

[Anderlith]

Hmm I'm sorry but wasn't that WWI and not WWII?

And the White Council smack down was in the 60s wasn't it?

Also where did you get "nexus of events" from.

Judging by Evil Bob's Nazi attire I would say WWII.

[Tavar]

Hmm I'm sorry but wasn't that WWI and not WWII?

And the White Council smack down was in the 60s wasn't it?

Also where did you get "nexus of events" from.

I'm pretty sure it's both. He kept coming back, after all.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm pretty sure it's both. He kept coming back, after all.

Yes. Harry, as a narrator, points out the S at the end of World WarS. As in Kemmler started both.

As for nexuses, I don't think WWI / WWII counts as such; to me it seems a nexus is an isolated event or battle. Not the whole thing. The assassination by Princip might have been a nexus. Harry's birth is one. The party at Bianca's.

[hamlet]

I'm not sure there are quite so many as you're implying.

I think, all told, it would be limited to the World Wars (being all about Kemler) and the arc between the Party at Bianca's, though the war with the Red Court, culminating with the Mayan Fracas it Chichen Itza.

Beyond that, it's kind of hard to judge. Those are the ones we really know about and those others that were mentioned were, I think, just part of those two larger events.

We're coming up on another one is my impression. A bigger one that Harry is getting dumped into the middle of involving Nemesis, outsiders, and whatever is behind the Fomor.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Judging by Evil Bob's Nazi attire I would say WWII.

I'm pretty sure it's both. He kept coming back, after all.

Yeah but WWI was the one he explicitly is said to have started doing all the set up behind the scenes.

WWII was he was just running around raising mass graves in Eastern Europe. You know typical evil ****wad business.

(Given everyone knows WWI is the primary cause of WWII)

[Sinfonian]

I've been doing a fair bit of driving recently, which means I've been relistening to quite a few of the audiobooks. During Small Favor, it is mentioned that the Ivy will not brook any insult toward her, and that she'll mete out punishment accordingly. Later, Nicodemus mentions having Tessa and her crew do most of the terrible stuff to Ivy, so that he'll be more likely to avoid retribution for that.

With that in mind: What, if anything, has Ivy done to punish the Denarians for what they did to her, given that she's had about 4 years to do something? Will we find out in Skin Game? Is Ivy playing a longer game? Did Jim decide it wasn't interesting enough to mention?

Just one of those strange things that sort of stuck out at me. I don't expect Jim to have gone out of his way to stick it in one of the previous books, I'm just curious what we'll see going forward.

[BRC]

I've been doing a fair bit of driving recently, which means I've been relistening to quite a few of the audiobooks. During Small Favor, it is mentioned that the Ivy will not brook any insult toward her, and that she'll mete out punishment accordingly. Later, Nicodemus mentions having Tessa and her crew do most of the terrible stuff to Ivy, so that he'll be more likely to avoid retribution for that.

With that in mind: What, if anything, has Ivy done to punish the Denarians for what they did to her, given that she's had about 4 years to do something? Will we find out in Skin Game? Is Ivy playing a longer game? Did Jim decide it wasn't interesting enough to mention?

Just one of those strange things that sort of stuck out at me. I don't expect Jim to have gone out of his way to stick it in one of the previous books, I'm just curious what we'll see going forward.

She has a massive knowledge base and vast intellect. I'm sure she's done a billion tiny things that will give Nicodemus a billion headaches, each done and precisely the right time to foil his plans.

It might even make him desperate enough to call in some rather serious markers in order to recover his power.

[Lamech]

With that in mind: What, if anything, has Ivy done to punish the Denarians for what they did to her, given that she's had about 4 years to do something? Will we find out in Skin Game? Is Ivy playing a longer game? Did Jim decide it wasn't interesting enough to mention?

There are limits on her power and what she can do. To stop her from... abusing her power? Distributing knowledge to the masses? Anyway, if I had to guess she has been hunting them down and killing them slowly and painfully. Probably feeding them to kitties.

Side note: With the advent of the interwebz and things like twitter, and I wonder if she has gotten stronger? You might think facebook is inane, but what has more magical power? A babies first giggle (facebook), or a ancient manual of pseudo-science? Especially when you consider which has more power than Dresden.

[Rakaydos]

So I had a twisted thought.

Everyone's heard the theory that Cowl and Kumori are Harry and Molly who went back in time. With Cold days, that particular theory seems less likely. However, I have a variation.

In an alternate timeline, Harry didnt cut class that day. Justin DuMore got them both in psychic armlocks, and turned both Harry and Elane into his enforcers.

And gives them all new names. Elane's is Kumori. Evil Dresden calls Justin Cowl, and it sticks.

Much later, When the Empty Night was upon them all, Justin knew he was lost... but he threw his and his two enforcer's souls back through time, as spirits to posess new bodies, that fateful day. Minimum change in the timeline, minimum energy expended (for traveling decades in the past, at least)

But Evil Harry decided to not toe the party line. (he, after all, has a thing about authority figures) Setting up shop as Harrys "Dressed in black" subconscious, Evil Harry convinced Dresden to cut class. And the whole showdown with Justine Dumore went as described in Ghost Story.

[BRC]

So I had a twisted thought.

Everyone's heard the theory that Cowl and Kumori are Harry and Molly who went back in time. With Cold days, that particular theory seems less likely. However, I have a variation.

In an alternate timeline, Harry didnt cut class that day. Justin DuMore got them both in psychic armlocks, and turned both Harry and Elane into his enforcers.

And gives them all new names. Elane's is Kumori. Evil Dresden calls Justin Cowl, and it sticks.

Much later, When the Empty Night was upon them all, Justin knew he was lost... but he threw his and his two enforcer's souls back through time, as spirits to posess new bodies, that fateful day. Minimum change in the timeline, minimum energy expended (for traveling decades in the past, at least)

But Evil Harry decided to not toe the party line. (he, after all, has a thing about authority figures) Setting up shop as Harrys "Dressed in black" subconscious, Evil Harry convinced Dresden to cut class. And the whole showdown with Justine Dumore went as described in Ghost Story.

Or, in the alternate timeline Harry lost his duel with Dumore.

[Rakaydos]

Or, in the alternate timeline Harry lost his duel with Dumore.

Given how free will is being played up in this series, I prefer the tought that choosing to skip class was the straw that through the timelines apart.

[Mauve Shirt]

Unconfirmed, unofficial, un-everything, but Amazon lists Skin Game's release date as January 16th.
So far away.

[Aidan305]

Unconfirmed, unofficial, un-everything, but Amazon lists Skin Game's release date as January 16th.
So far away.

Odds are more likely March or April. Jim hasn't submitted the manuscript yet, and it takes about four months for printing/typesetting/etc. according to him.

[Avilan the Grey]

Odds are more likely March or April. Jim hasn't submitted the manuscript yet, and it takes about four months for printing/typesetting/etc. according to him.

I saw Jan 27th somewhere. Don't remember where, though.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That's good for me. This month is NaNoWriMo, and I plan on rereading the series in preparation for Skin Game.

[F.H. Zebedee]

I personally think that Cowl is just straight up DuMorne from the regular timeline. I remember a few points back before Elaine showed up, whenever Harry mentioned killing DuMorne and Elaine, Bob would express doubt. We're led to believe it's because just Elaine survived, but notice how Cowl's arms are covered in scars, just like, say, had he been burnt. And Cowl has connections to outsiders, much like DuMourne was tied to He Who Walks Behind.

Not sure who Kumori is, though... She doesn't feel like Elaine, and the other big option, Harry's mother, is just absurd, considering how clearly dead she is.

That said, in the RPG book, Harry draws the following diagram:
Lord Raith ->..............He Who Walks Behind
^........................... V
Maggie Le Fay ?> ...........Justin DuMourne

To explain the lines: Lord Raith had Thomas with his mother, and was tied to He Who Walks behind via ritual magic.

DuMourne also had a working relation with He Who Walks Behind.

Maggie had Thomas with Lord Raith.

He then draws a line with a question mark between his mother and He Who Walks behind, and his mother and Justin DuMorne. It really makes me wonder how all of that is supposed to fit together.

When I get home, I'll take a picture of the graph and put it up here.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I personally think that Cowl is just straight up DuMorne from the regular timeline. I remember a few points back before Elaine showed up, whenever Harry mentioned killing DuMorne and Elaine, Bob would express doubt. We're led to believe it's because just Elaine survived, but notice how Cowl's arms are covered in scars, just like, say, had he been burnt. And Cowl has connections to outsiders, much like DuMourne was tied to He Who Walks Behind.

Cowl knew about Bob. Or rather both Bob's significance and Harry's possession of it. There isn't a big list of people that could possibly know that... and the last owner of Bob is right on the top of that list.

I continue to feel there's simply just no other adequate candidate. Everything else is purest speculation. Given Cowl could be someone we haven't met yet. Or otherwise have the means to guess and there is no actual 'mystery' to solve except by blind luck. Butcher hasn't played fair before we know from who shot Harry so that's more then possible

Also why haven't we seen Justin and Harry's final fight? That has to be being saved for a reason at this point.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Also why haven't we seen Justin and Harry's final fight? That has to be being saved for a reason at this point.

Yeah, that's been the big thing pushing me towards this theory as well.

Of course, also of note, is that Harry actively hides Bob from almost every other wizard; he didn't let Molly know about him for years. I think Luccio knew OF Bob, but had no idea Harry owned him. I think he hasn't even told Ebenezar yet.
Besides that, the list of people who are familiar with Bob is a pretty short list;
Kemmler (dead)
Thomas (not a mage)
Murphy (not a mage)
Butters (not a mage, and has been seen at the same time as Cowl)
Elaine (not male)
Justin DuMourne (Male, mage, familiar with Bob... but possibly dead.)

So yeah, elimination yields either DuMourne, alternate Harry, alternate DuMourne, or an unknown entity.

Alternate Harry/DuMourne's biggest support is that we tend to get each book exploring one aspect of the world of the Dresden Files.
Stormfront: The first law (thou shalt not kill)
Fool Moon: Lycanthropes (possibly the second law)
Grave Peril: The Red Court and Ghosts
Summer Knight: The Fey Courts
Death Masks: The Denarians/Knights of the Cross
Blood Rites: The White and Black Courts
Dead Beat: Undead, the Fifth Law (Thou shalt not reach beyond the Borders of Life)
Proven Guilty: The third law (Thou shalt not invade the mind of another)
White Night: Ghouls, more of the White Court
Small Favor: More about the knights and Denarians, the Archive
Turn Coat: The Wardens
Changes: The Red Court
Ghost Story: The afterlife/ghosts
Cold Days: The seventh law (Thou shalt not seek beyond the Outer Gates)

So, the only really heavily discussed aspects of the setting yet to see much emphasis for a book are the following:
-The actual Afterlife, as opposed to ghosts (which should be the focus of Skin Game)
-Dragons
-The Jade Court
-MAYBE the second law: Thou shalt not transform others.
-The fourth law: Thou shalt not enthrall another.
-The sixth law: Thou shalt not swim against the Currents of Time.

Most everything else has seen a considerable degree of attention and focus. So that implies quite heavily we're going to see a book involving the dragons at some point, and a book involving time travel at some point.

[Rakaydos]

I actually wanted Cowl to be Alternate Harry... just so there could be an entire book, who's first chapter has Harry and Alternate-harry soulgaze, and the rest of the book is Cowl's life story.

[123456789blaaa]

Yeah, that's been the big thing pushing me towards this theory as well.

Of course, also of note, is that Harry actively hides Bob from almost every other wizard; he didn't let Molly know about him for years. I think Luccio knew OF Bob, but had no idea Harry owned him. I think he hasn't even told Ebenezar yet.
Besides that, the list of people who are familiar with Bob is a pretty short list;
Kemmler (dead)
Thomas (not a mage)
Murphy (not a mage)
Butters (not a mage, and has been seen at the same time as Cowl)
Elaine (not male)
Justin DuMourne (Male, mage, familiar with Bob... but possibly dead.)
<snip>

Simon Petrovich.

I don't fully endorse the Simon=Cowl theory anymore because I think it's more likely that he's someone we haven't seen yet. However, I still really like the theory and think that if Cowl is a character we know of, he'll be Simon.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm still in the Simon=Cowl camp mainly because the second-most-likely candidate is Justin as mentioned, and I really don't see Justin willing to work with Harry (or even let him walk away alive) a second time after what happened in their first relationship.

Though it would be just like Jim to troll us by revealing Cowl as a completely new character, right before he gets killed off.

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't really care who Cowl is, but there are other interesting things about Justin. On top of that list is that he was trying to build an army of Starborn to fight outsiders. He probably knew about "The Adversary"...