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2012-10-15, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Some say he's in Scotland
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I agree with this view. However, I'm equally inclined to go along to a vegetarian's house to have a meal that is vegetarian as long as they don't start lecturing about the virtues of vegetarianism and how it's morally wrong to eat meat and all the usual spiel. If they do, I'm very likely to start telling them how good meat tastes and it tends to get a bit awkward. And then I don't return for meals at their place again.
I accept that the vegetarians don't serve meat in their homes, since I use the same reasoning for not having any coffee available in my home. I don't drink coffee, so why should I keep coffee in my house if someone who do drink coffee should happen to stop by?
I still like this, though.
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2012-10-15, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Germany
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
@Golemvioce: I applaud your view, but then again, it's virtually the same as mine: I eat meat and as long as you don't bother me I don't care about what you eat. I don't mind making something vegetarian for you as long as you are willing to return the pleasure with meat when cooking for meSi non confectus, non reficiat.
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2012-10-15, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Bristol
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Yes, but...
In considering the question in issue, animal byproducts for e.g. pet food, leather manufacture, glue, and so forth, aren't all that relevant (a world that banned the eating of meat would almost certainly ban carnivorous pets). It's the portion of the animal that ends up directly contributing towards human energy requirements that's important. The stuff that's ground up and fed back to animals is relevant for consideration, but you lose another boatload of energy along the way. There is a lot of rubbish that goes into sausages and the like, it's true, but mass-market sausages are, to be honest, largely vegetable product anyway.Last edited by Aedilred; 2012-10-15 at 10:44 AM.
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2012-10-15, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Runite
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2012-10-15, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Germany
- Gender
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Oh, while we're here: what's the thing about bacon?
Si non confectus, non reficiat.
The beautiful girl is courtesy of Serpentine
My S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Call of Pripjat Let's Play! Please give it a read, more than one constant reader would be nice!
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2012-10-15, 10:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Far Realms
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
please note that incoherent posting is incoherent.
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Spoilerby OneCalledBlue; Genderbent Ithlikar
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2012-10-15, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I had a bacon sundae once. It was delicious.
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2012-10-15, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Far Realms
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
This one time at a local fair I went to, they had a stand that had caramel apples wrapped in bacon. I tried it for the lulz.
Best.
Thing.
EVAR.please note that incoherent posting is incoherent.
-Kymme gets all the credit for my current avatar. ALL OF IT.-
Sig-of-avatars is a GO!
Spoilerby OneCalledBlue; Genderbent Ithlikar
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2012-10-15, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Thin enough that its presence doesn't overpower sweet things like a big slab of meat would, a mix of fat and protein that is generally considered good-tasting, a variety of possible textures from chewy to crispy, used to be relatively cheap and plentiful, though I couldn't say for sure between its increased popularity meaning they can charge more for it and increased consumption(?) or at least use in an increased number of different consumer products as well as the impending pork shortage....
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2012-10-15, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- ATL
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2012-10-15, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Well, coffee actually basically keeps nigh-indefinitely and is a minor concession for the sake of keeping your cupboard/pantry/kitchen well-appointed if you're doing much in the way of entertaining that would necessitate coffee, but most people really don't do that sort of entertaining in this day and age near as I can figure anyway, unless it's one-on-one entertaining related to mating. Meat at least doesn't do so well after aeons in the freezer and won't keep otherwise unless you're going bulky and keeping an entire salt-cured and sealed ham somewhere on the premises.
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2012-10-15, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Germany
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Arr, matey, that be tha way of tha sea!
Si non confectus, non reficiat.
The beautiful girl is courtesy of Serpentine
My S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Call of Pripjat Let's Play! Please give it a read, more than one constant reader would be nice!
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2012-10-15, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
why? (genuine question..not being obtuse here, I just don't get it)
The stuff that's ground up and fed back to animals is relevant for consideration, but you lose another boatload of energy along the way. There is a lot of rubbish that goes into sausages and the like, it's true, but mass-market sausages are, to be honest, largely vegetable product anyway.
also..how do you go about banning carnivorous pets? do you kill them off? way to go to be green.. do you set them free? half of them will try to get back home and die on your doorstep rather than leave..the other half will turn feral.. do you know how many packs of dogs would start roaming the rubbish bins of the big towns and basically endanger the lives of anybody who happens to take a hike on his own somewhere in the countryside?.. dogs are only a couple of generations removed from feral wolflike creatures.
the practicalities of having to start hunting wild dogs would beat, at least for a few decades, the benefit of cutting down on meat consumption.
and that's without considering the economical backlash... there are entire comunities that survive on farming, hunting, fishing, food processing..entire areas of employement would have to learn new skills and re-deploy in some other field of business..provided that there is a field with enough employement opportunities for everybody to migrate towards. and that's just the surface..there are entire populations..minorities, whose entire lifestyle is based on hunting.. I'm thinking the amazonian tribes, the inuit, certain tribes in mongolia..half of the more remote populations in africa...
you start changing the "western world" towards a crusade against meat consumption..sooner or later that will become the standard towards all other cultures "must" strife.. which means effectively wiping out millennia of traditions, cultures and habits that on their own have very little impact on nature..all because WE couldn't keep the numbers to an acceptable level..
suddenly the moral highground on which the premise is build that it's for the betterment of everybody..starts to crumble while you look at it.
in fact the entire premise that such a decision should be based on a moral compunction is flawed.. we don't decide to become vegans or vegetarians for the betterment of the world. we do it to feel better about ourselves. the world will do pretty well whether we and other species survive on it or not. the world will be zoomin around the Sun for a long time after we've depleted every resource, died out and a new balance between the species has been struck... probably with cockroaches still scurrying around like they do today.
in fact..the faster we deplete the resources WE need..the faster we'll stop being a nuissance to the planet.
I see what you did there..
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2012-10-15, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Switzerland
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Never liked bacon. The taste doesn't do it for me, and I get sick from too much grease. In fact, I can't think of all that many people I know who like it. (And yes, that includes different varieties of bacon.)
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2012-10-15, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Don't large packs of feral dogs eat unattended children because they lack any fear of man and are hungry? Or was that just propaganda to keep from allowing large packs of feral dogs to be allowed to build up?
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2012-10-15, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
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- Where ever trouble brews
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I had a room mate from mainland China. No word of a lie, his favorite food in the entire world is cubes of pig blood.
Denny's had a "Maple Bacon Sundae" on their menu for a bit.
He claimed it was the most disgusting thing he's ever eaten. The only food that has ever made him want to gag.
Still finished it though.
I want to remind you that this is a fellow who grew up in the land of eating offal, chicken feet, and balut eggs. And he found that, of all things, to be disgusting.
Perspective people, perspective.~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
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2012-10-15, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
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2012-10-15, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I don't eat pork bacon. Religious stuff. I eat TURKEY BACON!
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2012-10-15, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Bristol
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Originally Posted by dehro
Moreover, the manufacture, processing and distribution of those waste byproducts into consumer articles is almost certainly going to be at least as consumptive of energy as synthesising the consumer product in the first place, or just finding another method of production (from vegetable byproduct, or whatever)
Originally Posted by dehro
Originally Posted by dehro
In the entirely hypothetical situation that pan-global legislation was passed banning the consumption of meat for environmental reasons it would be extremely difficult to justify the retention of companion animals, especially carnivorous ones, which serve less productive purpose than do meat animals. The actual method of disposing of both domestic pets and livestock is not really the point. In reality, what would likely occur is a phasing-out of said animals through compulsory sterilisation. Or we could just heap them up and burn them, a la Foot and Mouth. That's probably what PETA would do.
As for the damage it would do to cultures, livelihoods, etc., well, yes, those are valid points, and those are some of the main reasons it will almost certainly never happen. The interest groups opposing it are just too strong. However, the fact is that legislation to change just about anything will always run into this sort of issue, and forces a rather cold cost/benefit analysis. Or it's done for reasons only tangentially linked to the issues at stake and is more about punishment or weakening of those interest groups in order to pursue separate goals. I could give examples, but that'd be straying into real-world politics territory.
Depends where, I think... Where I was in China, emptying your plate was an indication you hadn't been given enough and wanted more. A good host is expected to provide more food than his guest will eat; a good guest doesn't request more than he's been given.Last edited by Aedilred; 2012-10-15 at 12:41 PM.
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2012-10-15, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I'd say there's a strong argument to be made that if that happens those "waste elements" cease to be waste..
Also, it's a fact that as we went along, we've found out things about these byproducts as we were re-inventing and re-using them that have now made them favourite over other materials.. there are medical uses for those waste/byproducts and uses in various industries that are just more effective or very difficult to reproduce with other raw materials/sources.
whether this is true in for a value of true high enough to still make people butcher pigs and cows for those "byproducts" and thereby making the meat/muscle the actual by-product or not, remains up for debate. I don't know enough about it.
one could argue that should those by-products become the main reason for keeping breeding farm animals, we'd soon find other uses for the muscle/flesh we wouldn't be eating.. uses related to other fields of industry we are now neglecting because we have the perfect use for those bits already (yummy steaks).
so that would bring us back to the reasons why such a global legislation would have been issued.
I can't see that it would be for economic reasons.. ecologic reasons.. mmh I'm not buying the conservation of energy as a sufficient reason for it.. since there are today plenty of benefits that counter the relative disadvantage of using up resources to feed cattle. (cows eat grass.. we can cut out the middle-man, but our stomachs aren't built to digest grass.. which means we'd only get more room for intensive farming and crop rotations..which bring a wealth of other issues to the soil and so on..ultimately, cows grazing the crap out of a piece of land are still healthier for said piece of land than growing 4-5 crops a year or building a greenhouse on it)
so, again, we're left with the moral/ethical reason, which falls flat on it's butt when we consider that we are but a loud disturbance in the cycle of life of our planet.. we may take most of said life with us before we go out with a bang, but we can't take it all with us.. flora and fauna will find new forms in which to envelop the planet long after we're gone.
Depends where, I think... Where I was in China, emptying your plate was an indication you hadn't been given enough and wanted more. A good host is expected to provide more food than his guest will eat; a good guest doesn't request more than he's been given.
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2012-10-15, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2009
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- I'm sure it's somewhere
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Because that chicken needs to eat so much grain in order to live, by removing the chicken from the equation we reduce the amount of crops we need to grow. Therefore there is less farmland being used, we need to transport less grain, and the whole thing is much more energy efficient. What you're missing is while transporting meat may be more calories per mile you also had to transport the vegetables to the meat so there is no gain only loss. On top of that, using less farmland is a worthy goal in and of itself because nitrogen run off is causing algi explosions in the ocean which suffocate all life for miles, and other unpleasant side effects.
Now I'm not saying in an ideal world no one ever eats meat again. All I'm saying is that by cutting down on our meat consumption over time we could reduce green house gasses, and quantity of farmlands. And this wouldn't result in mass genocide of chickens (which is laughable considering how many billions get slaughtered a year) but simply in less breeding.Last edited by Xondoure; 2012-10-15 at 03:40 PM.
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2012-10-15, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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- Xin-Shalast
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Intentionally making chickens go extinct is laughable because we eat them? Not because we're so ornery that it'd be basically impossible to get all humans to go along with it?
Also, we don't pasteurize land. Mostly we pasteurize liquids, such as milk. I'm not sure if pasturize works either for turning land into pasture land.
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2012-10-15, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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2012-10-15, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Last edited by Starwulf; 2012-10-15 at 04:14 PM.
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2012-10-15, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
PETA at this point may as well change their motto to Plasmaaaaaaaa!
Last edited by Chess435; 2012-10-15 at 09:08 PM.
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2012-10-15, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Unless you've actually done some absolutely staggering research; seriously, scientific achievment award level stuff; you can't know that.
Just off the top of my head, if the chicken has a higher energy density than the plants that feed her, then removing her from the equation means we have to produce more weight in grain for humans than we produced weight in chicken, which may or may not have the end result of actually needing to convert more land to crop producing farmland, and/or raise overall transportation cost for that food.
Nevermind that removing the chicken from the equation falls flat either morally, because it requires driving a species into extinction, or by logical fallacy. Chickens will go feral rather than extinct if left on their own, meaning that they continue to eat grain and produce their biological emissions and/or become a pest-animal that has to be regularly neutralized.
I can't logically concede to this argument without actual data that's at least in the ball-park. Unfortunately, I rather doubt that anyone's actually done all of the necessary research to collect that data. That, or if there is truth in your assertion, the data is being suppressed for economic reasons. As others have pointed out, converting large portions of industrialized nations to a low/no-meat diet will inevitably run into issues of economic and social turbulence as well as the tremendous reduction in several industries.
@ whoever tried to throw out byproduct use: It most certainly does count. There are many places where synthesis is either a woefully impractical option or an utter non-option. If byproducts are being put to use, they're not waste. Waste is the stuff that ends up in landfills and, ironically, most of it is synthetic. You can't just throw out part of the equation because it supports the other guy instead of you.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-15 at 07:49 PM.
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2012-10-15, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Personally, I'd say that this is more of a quick fix to overpopulating the earth than a solution in and of itself... The recent Paleo Diet fad has led me to a few bouts of nutrition research, and there's a lot of convincing argument for a low carb diet...
Besides, we've had animal husbandry for ages now, and not once if not when our population exploded has the idea of actually fully depleting resources on a planetary scale been close to truth. The Inuit also don't seem like they were an enviromental threat any time during their history, and they come close to eating nothing but meat.
And then, even carbs can only go so far... Once even veggies, legumes and fruits become too expensive, I wonder if algae farms will be next green.
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2012-10-15, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Algae, yeast, ideas like that have been thrown around for a long time. At present and likely near future, such would be best for long term space missions.
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2012-10-15, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- right behind you
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Im not worried about the planet. You know why? Because its foolishness to think that we can do much of anything that will effect it long term, on a geological time scale. We could launch every nuke in existence at the same time, and so long as the planet itself doesnt shatter and drift into space in a thousand pieces, the world will heal in time. The real issue isnt that we are killing the world, its that we are going to be killing ourselves. Once we die out due to whatever finally kills us, the world will start to self correct, and in another 30,000 years there wont be any sign we ever existed. The worst that will happen is we will make the planet unsuitable for life in some way, then we die, and the things we did that ruined the earth for us stop happening and life eventually starts over again. So i dont worry about the fate of earth.
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2012-10-15, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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