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2012-10-12, 07:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-12, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
If a law was drafted and passed within the lifespan of a chicken (or cow or pig), then any animals who were born after the start of the process but before the law was passed would become dead weight and would be killed if no-one was willing to take care of them until they died.
If the planet gradually turned away from the use of animals, then the chicken population would be reduced not by culling, but by not allowing the chickens currently alive to breed.
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2012-10-12, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
A law of that nature would probably have a "date of effect" separate from the date of passing (as most laws do) to take account of the lifespan of contemporary domestic animals. Or a clause along the lines of "animals born after date x shall be <sterilised/whatever>". It would still take a while to work through - some domestic animals have very long lifespans. Even cats can live ~20 years.
(In fact, there's an interesting question-mark over the validity of wills/trusts for the well-being of some animals - particularly birds and tortoises - given their long lifespans. But this isn't the place for a legal debate.)
Originally Posted by thubby
I fear, though, that they're not.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2012-10-12, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I am under no delusion. We're animals, after all. We've merely stepped out of the plains of our lowly origin unto a larger stage but still bare the markings of it, as Darwin said best.
A lot of humans are also parasite ridden, cold and half starved. Alcohol just makes it all a little bit more bearable. Debatable as it is, beer was one of our greatest inventions and one of our worst.
Sadly, the Law and a lot more of what I'd like to say to this goes way to close to forum rules. So I'll merely say...murder is murder and the targeted and marked extinction of over 17.8 billion living things is a travesty when they're merely being killed off because of "dead weight".Last edited by Tebryn; 2012-10-12 at 02:46 PM.
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2012-10-12, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2012-10-12, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
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2012-10-12, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Hadn't heard of him before your post, but after a bit of cursory research I dismiss him.
His ideas of natural human rights are predicated on the man-made construct that is civilized society. If there is no society, you have no rights, in other words. Locke himself acknowledges that in nature there is only the defense of self.
Rights are a concept, not something inherent to nature.
At least until and unless you blur or erase the line for where society and nature become seperate. If you consider a structured society part of the nature of man, then it gets a bit more grey, but in that case dominating other species is still an inherent right of man as a result of his nature, and the result of evolution.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-10-12, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
You know, I could give up steak, but I could not give up pets.
I love my Dogs too much.
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2012-10-12, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
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2012-10-12, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Peta did something stupid and obnoxious? I never could have imagined... oh wait, this kind of thing happens all the time. PETA is a joke and regardless of their actual beliefs, this kind of thing makes them a joke.
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2012-10-12, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Cursory research is better than no research.
I'm reading his work now, but I don't really expect I'll have a sudden change of heart.
Edit: A more thorough examination of his works only reinforces my initial impression. His entire thesis is based on the construct that is civilization, which he himself calls a departure from the natural state which is governed by its own law of survival of the fittest.
Btw, I'm not saying rights are a bad thing or superfluous in any way. Having rights is definitely better than not having rights and I'd fight to maintain/regain any rights I think I deserve if someone tried to take them. I'm just saying that considering rights as something that comes from, or is inherent to, nature is a fundamentally flawed idea if you consider nature and civilization to be seperate things.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-12 at 07:13 PM.
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-10-12, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
If you keep reading Locke you'll learn that natural rights and the state of nature, while related, are not the same thing.
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2012-10-12, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I get that already. That's actually kinda my point.
The "natural" of natural rights is a misnomer, since they don't come from nature. Natural rights are the rights that a particular society sees as the most basic, fundamental, and somehow intrinsic rights that should never be violated. That doesn't make them any less a part of the culture that grants them or actually inherent to being a living creature. Alot of Locke's arguments also come from his views on morality, another social construct that has nothing to do with nature.
Don't get me wrong. They're fine works that should be given their due respect, IMO, but they don't even try to deny that rights are something that's a part of human civilization rather the part of nature.
After reading Locke's works, I think he'd probably be baffled by the notion of trying to apply the idea of natural rights to animals, much less the idea of extending any more rights than that to them.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-12 at 10:57 PM.
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2012-10-12, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-13, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Coming to a different conclusion isn't reading it wrong.
The idea that rights are inalienable or otherwise intrinsic is just that; ideology. Further, it still stems from a morality concept which is just as much a social construct as the rights themselves. Your rights are A) not inalienable, as countless regimes across the world throughout history have done more than an ample job of proving; there always have been, and still are places where you have only the rights you can take at gun or knife point; and B) not intrinsic, because otherwise they'd be observed by nature in -some- form; overriding instinct to not violate the rights of others for example, or having those rights respected by creatures on the same level of the food-chain.
Locke even hangs part of his argument on the concept of ownership; specifically the notion that one of your natural rights is the right to defend your property, and that your body and being belong to a deity; which isn't any more natural than rights or morality. Hell, even the idea that they're insecure in nature hangs on the concept of security, another human idea based on the concept of ownership.
Like I said, I can definitely buy into the social contract. I think if you're going to have a government, it's purpose should be to protect and support the people from outside aggression and natural disaster with no mind toward its own profit, but ultimately that has nothing at all to do with nature and everything to do with culture.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2012-10-13, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Steam username is Triscuitable.
I got VAC banned in COD: Ghosts for using an FOV changer.
I try not to think of how sad that is.
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2012-10-13, 05:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-10-13, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
Originally Posted by Kelb Panthera
That's at the core of Locke's political philosophy. In providing collective defence of the fruits of its citizens' labours, the state guarantees a right that's present, but limited, in the state of nature.
Personally, I take a fairly Hobbesian view of the state of nature - there are no inalienable rights, with the arguable exception of the right to self-defence which isn't permanently alienable, and the purpose of the state is to limit liberty to provide security - but I don't think Locke is entirely wrong, either.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2012-10-13, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-13, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
The real question: would PETA support man-eating sheep?
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2012-10-13, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-13, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-13, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
...Black Sheep?
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2012-10-13, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
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2012-10-13, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
That is, indeed, the movie to which I referred.
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2012-10-13, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-13, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
That looks like an instant classic
Nah, the man-eating sheep aren't literal.
Thomas More used the phrase "man-eating sheep" to describe the process of enclosure in England. Essentially, landowners and powerful tenants would expel peasants from the commons in order to make more money selling wool. As the displaced peasants often died, the sheep were "man-eating."
Locke's writings were used, in part, by landowners to justify enclosure (right to own property and all that). In part, because it was a centuries-long process (More lived roughly 100 years before Locke). Hence the connection between man-eating sheep and Locke.
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2012-10-13, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
They hunger for Baaaaaaaharains.
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2012-10-13, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
They hunger for a country?
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2012-10-13, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: PETA releases statement opposing Pokemon
I'm defending my views. Locke's already made his clear.
I'm saying that while, IMO, Locke's ideas are a good framework to base a government on, he's made a disingenious statement about where rights come from. I also think he did so deliberately. Remember that all political theorists must, by definition, be well versed in politics.
By saying that those rights are inherent he implied that a government denying those rights was taking something away, and in doing so garnered support by engaging people's distaste for having what they view as theirs threatened.
Had he been straightfoward and said that they were the fundamental rights of the liberalist ideology, it would've implied he was making it up, which he was, and it likely wouldn't have been quite as well recieved.
"Natural" rights are a relatively new idea, and they are an idea, that only came into being a few hundred years ago. Before that the only people that had any rights were rulers and the aristocracy that supported them. The rest of the populace only had as much freedom and privelage as they were allowed under their ruling regime.
Ultimately all rights, natural or otherwise, are just political philosophy. They're not and never have been something inherent to nature.
Again, I think that having rights is better than not having them and fully support the social contract as a framework for government. I'm just being honest about the fact that it's a philosophy, not a natural law. If it were a natural law then humans wouldn't be the only ones that recognize it. If you look at any other group of social animals you'll see that they're led by the strongest, smartest, or otherwise most capable member of the group that's able to seize and maintain power.
Man's laws are many and complex. Nature's law is singular and simple; survival of the fittest.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-14 at 08:18 AM.
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