Naruto V: Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan

[leafman]

New thread in prep for a new chapter tomorrow.
"Eye See Your Sharingan and Raise You a Rinnegan" had 8 votes so it's the new title.
Link to the previous thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236385

Let the discussion begin!

[Ramza00]

For the people claiming that Madara let a lot of things to chance by implanting his eyes into Nagato and then let him grow organically for years before Obito showed up.

The whole story of how Jiraiya met Nagato makes far less sense from a rational point of view (it is a wonderful story from an emotional point of view but it doesn't follow logic.)

There is no way you can have your prized fighter a sannin sit out a war for 3 years. There is no way his team mates or his villiage would allow it.

There is no way that his village would not try to acquire Nagato and make him one of the Konoha ninja if he has a major bloodline limit let alone the ultimate bloodline limit of legend (for the sake of argument lets just state a powerful bloodline limit that allows all five element use and chakra sensing abilites.). This is a manga where acquiring power for war is everything. Furthermore this is a manga where it is quite easy to defend that power by things such as cursed seals (such as the caged bird seal of the hyuggi clan) or the cursed sealed of danzo's root which prevents people form acting in ways that are harmful to root.

There is no way they wouldn't turn Nagato into a Konoha weapon of war, or they would turn him into a breeding factory to try to recreate the rhinnegan in other people.

There is no way Jiraiya would give up 3 years of his life to let Nagato stay in the hidden valley of rain, train him, make him his student, and just walk away. Instead from a rational point of view Jiraiya may adopt Nagato, Konan, and Yahiko raise them as his children and incorporate them into the villiage, aka pretty much what happened with Kabuto Yakushi.

[Morph Bark]

New chapter

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We're done with the flashback, after 5 completely flashback chapters. Good time, too, and a nice transition. I'm especially loving Naruto's line of "You're already dead anyway!"

Doesn't it... remind you of anything?

Also, third thread title I made/modified getting picked, awww yeeeaaahhh.

[Socratov]

New chapter

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We're done with the flashback, after 5 completely flashback chapters. Good time, too, and a nice transition. I'm especially loving Naruto's line of "You're already dead anyway!"

Doesn't it... remind you of anything?

Also, third thread title I made/modified getting picked, awww yeeeaaahhh.

I thank you for the collaboration

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yeah, finally done with the backstory, now let's have at least 1 chapter of full on fighting and no american adaptation of DBZ shenanigans (as in 30 mins of talk and 2 mins of fighting)

[Kato]

Well, nothing too amazing happening this weak but it still a decent chapter. And yeah, the "You are already dead" line was pretty cool

[Socratov]

You know, the funny thing is, I used to think Naruto wasn't that good a manga and Bleach to be fairly good. Cue bizarroworld where Bleach absolutely jumps the shark so hard they end up leaving earth's orbit and naruto's peices falling together in a masterful way... I mean, Kubo started off great but started creating plotholes bigger and bigger (closing them with asspulls). While Kishi started off with quite a few plotholes, hwile they are now all being filled in ways that makes actual sense.

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm still confused about how Obito did not know much about Minato's Yellow Flash Technique, but Obito is supposed to be kind of a dumb kid anyway, so I guess it's ok. I mean, we wouldn't expect Naruto to know details about the inner workings of the Chidori if he fought Kakashi (at least, not before his training with Jiraiya) and Obito is Dark Naruto.
So... yeah. I'm satisfied by the resolutions, by the transition and such.

[DiscipleofBob]

You know, the funny thing is, I used to think Naruto wasn't that good a manga and Bleach to be fairly good. Cue bizarroworld where Bleach absolutely jumps the shark so hard they end up leaving earth's orbit and naruto's peices falling together in a masterful way... I mean, Kubo started off great but started creating plotholes bigger and bigger (closing them with asspulls). While Kishi started off with quite a few plotholes, hwile they are now all being filled in ways that makes actual sense.

For a while now, Bleach has been riding a hoverboard over an entire shark school. Possibly fishman island from One Piece.

Naruto stopped making sense when Shippuden started, but once you forgive the earlier plot holes the current plot isn't that bad. It's like milk that once went bad but then somehow became a pretty decent yogurt.

I guess it also makes sense that if any series would know how to avoid jumping sharks, it's One Piece.

[Socratov]

I'm still confused about how Obito did not know much about Minato's Yellow Flash Technique, but Obito is supposed to be kind of a dumb kid anyway, so I guess it's ok. I mean, we wouldn't expect Naruto to know details about the inner workings of the Chidori if he fought Kakashi (at least, not before his training with Jiraiya) and Obito is Dark Naruto.
So... yeah. I'm satisfied by the resolutions, by the transition and such.

well, to be sure, he's known as the yellow flash of konoha, but that doesn't mean he advertises his signature technique (that would mean others would be able to replicate it). Also, seeing how the technique was quite dangerous to use (needed lots of chakra) he might not have used it in front of the kids.

[Kato]

How was Obito unaware of Minato's technique? Yeah, he wasn't able to dodge that one attack but he's not perfect. Who can see through any possible plan of his opponent in the middle of a battle? Or did I miss something back then?

[Ramza00]

How was Obito unaware of Minato's technique? Yeah, he wasn't able to dodge that one attack but he's not perfect. Who can see through any possible plan of his opponent in the middle of a battle? Or did I miss something back then?

Obito also actually touched Minato on the Hokage statue and was starting to warp him with his MS technique, yet Minato was able to escape (even while being held) via using the Yellow Flash technique.

I don't think this is a big deal for if it happened to me I would be shocked too. We know from past experience that if Obito is touching you or you are in his immediate vicinity you are warped as well when he does that spiral motion with his MS.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm still confused about how Obito did not know much about Minato's Yellow Flash Technique, but Obito is supposed to be kind of a dumb kid anyway, so I guess it's ok. I mean, we wouldn't expect Naruto to know details about the inner workings of the Chidori if he fought Kakashi (at least, not before his training with Jiraiya) and Obito is Dark Naruto.
So... yeah. I'm satisfied by the resolutions, by the transition and such.

Umm how was he not aware, I recall this coming up before and checking to find that he Tobi seemed reasonably aware of the technique and how it worked.

Now that whole "how long I've waited" line was pure BS and we still IMHO don't really cover the power jump or the like all that well. He still got beat and stuff but that happens. Knowing about a technique does not imply perfect ability to counter it. Especially one as good as Minato's

For a while now, Bleach has been riding a hoverboard over an entire shark school. Possibly fishman island from One Piece.

Naruto stopped making sense when Shippuden started, but once you forgive the earlier plot holes the current plot isn't that bad. It's like milk that once went bad but then somehow became a pretty decent yogurt.

I guess it also makes sense that if any series would know how to avoid jumping sharks, it's One Piece.

Pretty much my thoughts. If you don't try too hard to fit the pieces together there's still good to be found.

And One Piece would jump a shark only for Luffy to punch it in the nose in mid air then it would be friends with the Straw Hats through the rest of the arc.

[Sliver]

So... Why Rin got killed by Kakashi? I'm still confused about that...

[Soras Teva Gee]

So... Why Rin got killed by Kakashi? I'm still confused about that...

Because the ninja world is a cruel and hopeless place so grimdark the Imperium stays clear.... what?

(Because its being saved for Kakashi to beat Obito with)

[Sliver]

Oh that makes sense. Obito loved her, so BAM, hate was born to destroy it. Thanks.

[Silverraptor]

Flashback over?

*Throws newspaper over shoulder*

Thank God! Now to get back to the action!

[Madara]

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Oh yeah, see this. This is the wooden dragon of the first that held my Kuruma. You gotta admit, Madara seems to have truly been the strongest Ninja since the SoSP. With his planning, resources, manipulation, Hax, and other fun toys, he is just crazy strong.

That said, I'm glad the flashback is over, but it doesn't feel like we got our answers. "I've given up on this world" seems like a poor excuse. You'd think he would have maybe shown himself as he killed his sensei or something. Its even more interesting to see how easily Nagato way swayed, which explains why the Atatuski didn't join Tobi until after the massacre/ Nagato attaching to the statue.

[Ramza00]

Couple things
1) We still don't know how Nagato became aware of the Gedo Mazo statue. We do know he summoned it and synced with it but did he just pull the statue out of nowhere by instinct or did someone show him how to summon it.
2) Obitio is doing all this murder and mayheam about idealism about creating a perfect world out of genjutsu. Yet while he fought the fourth he pretty much said (after losing) there are so many ways to rule the world and it will bow my will to the end (it varies depending on translation.) This just not seem to be an idealistic brat but instead more of an egosticial ******* such as madara. Thus it is possible we are not seeing the whole personality change of obitio.

[Morph Bark]

I have deciphered Obito's true nature, his real self, the guy hiding behind a second mask.

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[Kato]

1) We still don't know how Nagato became aware of the Gedo Mazo statue. We do know he summoned it and synced with it but did he just pull the statue out of nowhere by instinct or did someone show him how to summon it.

Do you really want flashbacks of Obito explaining every stupid detail to Nagato?

2) Obitio is doing all this murder and mayheam about idealism about creating a perfect world out of genjutsu. Yet while he fought the fourth he pretty much said (after losing) there are so many ways to rule the world and it will bow my will to the end (it varies depending on translation.) This just not seem to be an idealistic brat but instead more of an egosticial ******* such as madara. Thus it is possible we are not seeing the whole personality change of obitio.

I fail to find any discussion on the translation... But I'd argue that there's probably quite a bit of leeway on how to interpret this. Catching them in a genjutsu is also making them bow to their will. Yeah, they don't get to have a choice but still. Or Kishi didn't care enough to make it more ambiguous.

[AtlanteanTroll]

You know, the funny thing is, I used to think Naruto wasn't that good a manga and Bleach to be fairly good. Cue bizarroworld where Bleach absolutely jumps the shark so hard they end up leaving earth's orbit and naruto's peices falling together in a masterful way... I mean, Kubo started off great but started creating plotholes bigger and bigger (closing them with asspulls). While Kishi started off with quite a few plotholes, hwile they are now all being filled in ways that makes actual sense.

Kishi's still filling his plotholes with asspulls, same as Kubo. Rule of cool is reigning supreme. There is almost no forethought. Well thought out plot started and, dare I say, ended, with Zabuza.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Kishi's still filling his plotholes with asspulls, same as Kubo. Rule of cool is reigning supreme. There is almost no forethought. Well thought out plot started and, dare I say, ended, with Zabuza.

Maybe; but they are least more palatable than Kubo's ones. And I disagree, the Chunnin Exam arc up to Tsunade's retrieval was pretty cool and well thoughtout IMO, things started going down around Sasuke's deffection to the sound.

[Traab]

Maybe; but they are least more palatable than Kubo's ones. And I disagree, the Chunnin Exam arc up to Tsunade's retrieval was pretty cool and well thoughtout IMO, things started going down around Sasuke's deffection to the sound.

I liked sasukes defection arc, sort of. What I DIDNT like was how a bunch of frigging genin, most rookies, were able to take on orochimarus elite bodyguards. Kimmimaru I could understand considering he had to face garra while he was in the middle of dying of a horrific lung illness but the rest? Malarky. The naruto/sasuke fight was pretty cool though. I liked the escalation pace it had. You got to really see the battle swing back and forth as each went deeper and deeper into the well trying to defeat the other. It was honestly an awesome matchup that to me really symbolized why they were rivals.

They really were near equals, and I cant help but wonder how the fight would have ended if naruto hadnt pulled his last shot like that. A symbolic victory is nice and all. Really a good way to get into somebodies head, but I think it would have made a better impression if sasuke had been sent spiraling across the lake into the nearest stone wall in his level 2 curse form, even if he had managed to stagger off afterwards. Even better if he had been knocked out and woke up in orochimarus hospital with no real idea on how the fight ended, or if he lost, or what. Just the memory of taking that last hit at the hands of the dobe.

[INoKnowNames]

yeah, finally done with the backstory, now let's have at least 1 chapter of full on fighting and no american adaptation of DBZ Bleach shenanigans (as in 30 mins of talk and 2 mins of fighting)

Fixed. I saw this a few days ago, and couldn't let it go.

As for the newest edition of the manga:

Spoiler

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I've been wondering how on earth the first Hokage would have somehow survived his encounter with Madara & the Nine Tails and walked away enough that people thought he won. Wood Dragon vs Mind Controlled Fox... not that bad a match up. Though the first would have had to have been some weird combo of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris as trained by Ryu Hayabusa in order to take on Madara as he seems to be.

Naruto Clone + Nine Tails working together & Killer B + Eight Tails working together...

vs God Moding Madara...

How many ways could this possibly end?

I liked sasukes defection arc, sort of. What I DIDNT like was how a bunch of frigging genin, most rookies, were able to take on orochimarus elite bodyguards. Kimmimaru I could understand considering he had to face garra while he was in the middle of dying of a horrific lung illness but the rest? Malarky.

Go back to those fights.

Choji won his fight under performance enhancing drugs that easily raised his abilities far beyond genin status.

Neji's one of the non-rookies, part of Gai's team who had an extra year or so of training, and one of the more talented members of his clan, and he just barely won his fight.

Shikamaru had to be saved.

Akamaru and Kiba had to be saved.

Lee was one of the non-rookies, and he also had to be saved.

I'm pretty sure the Sand Siblings were a cut above genin status themselves.

[Traab]

Fixed. I saw this a few days ago, and couldn't let it go.

As for the newest edition of the manga:

Spoiler

Show

I've been wondering how on earth the first Hokage would have somehow survived his encounter with Madara & the Nine Tails and walked away enough that people thought he won. Wood Dragon vs Mind Controlled Fox... not that bad a match up. Though the first would have had to have been some weird combo of Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris as trained by Ryu Hayabusa in order to take on Madara as he seems to be.

Naruto Clone + Nine Tails working together & Killer B + Eight Tails working together...

vs God Moding Madara...

How many ways could this possibly end?

Go back to those fights.

Choji won his fight under performance enhancing drugs that easily raised his abilities far beyond genin status.

Neji's one of the non-rookies, part of Gai's team who had an extra year or so of training, and one of the more talented members of his clan, and he just barely won his fight.

Shikamaru had to be saved.

Akamaru and Kiba had to be saved.

Lee was one of the non-rookies, and he also had to be saved.

I'm pretty sure the Sand Siblings were a cut above genin status themselves.

Nah, I get the feeling the sand sibs were basically, Temari and kanukuro hang back and let garra squish things on missions. I mean, they werent weak by any means, but they were also genin. Garra is an exception clearly. But the thing is, they showed that with the curse seal they could 4 on 2 take down JOUNIN. These are genin to chunin ranked ninja, and these supposedly elite guards are being pushed to the limit by them. Big deal if a second genin shows up, it should have been like the bell test, only deadlier. The bodyguards got gimped hardcore. The genin should have been absolutely outclassed and instead they were all able to push the "elite" to their second stage, (not counting kimmimaru, he was a bit of a special case though) before they needed help.

[INoKnowNames]

Nah, I get the feeling the sand sibs were basically, Temari and kanukuro hang back and let garra squish things on missions.

Not every mission requires for everyone to be killed. And collateral damage would be worse than Fairy Tail. They would definitely have to help make sure he kills at least the right targets, if not constantly train to keep him under control when with them.

I mean, they werent weak by any means, but they were also genin. Garra is an exception clearly. But the thing is, they showed that with the curse seal they could 4 on 2 take down JOUNIN. These are genin to chunin ranked ninja, and these supposedly elite guards are being pushed to the limit by them. Big deal if a second genin shows up, it should have been like the bell test, only deadlier. The bodyguards got gimped hardcore. The genin should have been absolutely outclassed and instead they were all able to push the "elite" to their second stage, (not counting kimmimaru, he was a bit of a special case though) before they needed help.

A) None of those Jounin had names. Not to mention if multiple ninja are being sent, it shows they suck. This is basic tropology!

B) I know we had a conversation about ranks not always being appropriate to the ninja, ie S-Level Naruto -still- being a Genin on all Technicalities (though the ranks might not be in use within the Grand Shinobi Armi).

C) Choji (on performance enhancers that made him 100x stronger than normal, so that's reasonably justified), Shikamaru (chunin, managed to just barely get off a Shadow Possession, which I'm surprised wasn't more of an issue in the middle of a freaking forest), Gaara (no issue with justification there) and Naruto (that fight was too epic for words to complain about) made their targets -force- the Cursed Seal. Kiba and Neji's foes did it willingly to end the fight faster.

[Douglas]

Nah, I get the feeling the sand sibs were basically, Temari and kanukuro hang back and let garra squish things on missions. I mean, they werent weak by any means, but they were also genin. Garra is an exception clearly. But the thing is, they showed that with the curse seal they could 4 on 2 take down JOUNIN. These are genin to chunin ranked ninja, and these supposedly elite guards are being pushed to the limit by them. Big deal if a second genin shows up, it should have been like the bell test, only deadlier. The bodyguards got gimped hardcore. The genin should have been absolutely outclassed and instead they were all able to push the "elite" to their second stage, (not counting kimmimaru, he was a bit of a special case though) before they needed help.

As I recall, they stated at some point that taking out the jounin like that exhausted a lot of their power. When the genin showed up, it was a bunch of elite named genin with special powerups and everything at their peak versus a group of nameless bodyguards who were all worn out. If the nameless bodyguards had been fresh, well rested, with similar one-off powerups (though that might have only been Choji, I'm not sure), then yes it would have been a curb stomp.

[INoKnowNames]

As I recall, they stated at some point that taking out the jounin like that exhausted a lot of their power. When the genin showed up, it was a bunch of elite named genin with special powerups and everything at their peak versus a group of nameless bodyguards who were all worn out. If the nameless bodyguards had been fresh, well rested, with similar one-off powerups (though that might have only been Choji, I'm not sure), then yes it would have been a curb stomp.

Wait... which group is which? There's like 4 groups being mentioned here:

The Leaf Jounin Squad.

The Sound 4.

The Sasuke Retrieval Team + Rock Lee.

The Sand Siblings.

Care to edit your post with those groups in mind? Because I don't quite understand which group was supposed to be exhausted and which one wasn't, as well as which ones were the elite named with special power ups.... The Sound 4? Or the Jounins?

[Ramza00]

The Leaf Jonin that fought against the Sound Four are not unnamed characters they do have names (links are to narutopedia)

Genma Shiranui

Raidō Namiashi

Note both of these characters are not real jonin but instead special jonin or charcters that are only jonin level in one technique. In other words they are no stronger on average than Ebisu who is the special jonin who is Konohamaru's tutor.

Raidō Namiashi is seen standing next to the third hokage during the chunnin exams. In the manga we do not see him defeated (during the smoke cloud event when the attack starts) but it obvious he had to be defeated for the story to continue. In the anime we see him hit by three kunai, these kunai were either launched by the sound four or orochimaru himself (it couldn't have been the sand ninja that were near orochimaru for the anbu had already took them out.)

Now both Genma and Raido were both the fourth and fifth hokage bodyguards. Them and a third person (who is scene but never given a name) know the Flying Thundergod Technique but they need 3 people to perform it.

So pretty much 4 Orochimaru bodyguards are barely superior than 2 Fourth Hokage bodyguards.

[Traab]

Wait... which group is which? There's like 4 groups being mentioned here:

The Leaf Jounin Squad.

The Sound 4.

The Sasuke Retrieval Team + Rock Lee.

The Sand Siblings.

Care to edit your post with those groups in mind? Because I don't quite understand which group was supposed to be exhausted and which one wasn't, as well as which ones were the elite named with special power ups.... The Sound 4? Or the Jounins?

The sound squad were tired, though clearly not that tired, they didnt have the standard signs of anime exhaustion, ie dirt smudges and deep breathing.

The elite named were the retrieval squad lead by shikamaru. Meaning main caste characters, who by virtue of BEING main caste are more powerful than average.


Anyways, while there is always that bit of function, they didnt stay random mooks for long. We got names, full whacky power lists, and a host of freaky abilities. But even beyond genre conventions, think about this realistically. These guys are supposed to be bodyguards for orochimaru. He counted on them being good enough to hold off any anbu squads that would try to break up his fight with the sandaime. These guys are supposed to be GOOD. By all rights, trump cards or not, those genin should have gotten a mud hole stomped in their butts.

Lets look at each fight. Choji - This one I could sort of accept. As stated its a near suicide technique that is similar to opening up all your gates. So I can see how two physical bruisers, one suddenly jumps up 100 levels of raw power, the other ends up losing. I can let this one slide, those it is still kinda stupid.

Kiba - God this one was dumb. Kiba is what, a couple months removed from being beaten up by a chakra disrupted naruto? He got taken down by a &^%$^% FART! Suddenly he has improved to the point where he can push this elite siamese twin guard to the limit? Yeah he would have been killed in the end, but still, he pushed this guy and his brother to their highest limits of power and skill. And this is a genin that got his ass kicked in the second round of the chunin exams.

Neji- He is fighting a guy that by all rights outranks him, and is fighting in nejis weakest area. Ranged combat. What part of curb stomp does he not get here? Neji had only one real ace here. His jyuken could disrupt those webs. Woopty do. They did a damn poor job of disrupting those giant honking arrows. Neji should have been crushed.

Shika - Him I can give a pass to, sort of. His whole thing is being so god awful brilliant that he can come up with 200 step plans in a moment and carry them out. This makes up for the fact that he is slow, weak, and not highly motivated. So in chess terms, he is so damn good, that even though he starts off with no queen, down a rook, and three pawns light, he is still good enough to win. But even so, there should be limits.

Now, the kimmimaru thing I liked. First off, because naruto was worthless against him. Just throwing away chakra. Then lee shows up and after having a decent showing, is clearly totally over matched. Then GARRA shows up and even then its all they can do to survive. Garra is using his ultimate attacks, everything short of going full shukakku on kimmimaru, and the most he is doing is causing some minor to moderate injuries. The only reason garra or lee walked away from that fight alive was kimmimarus own body giving out on him. THAT was the showing of one of orochimarus elites. And all that from a man dying on his feet, literally only able to stand through sheer force of will

You may say, "Thats not fair! Kimmimaru was also so damn strong the sound 4 were terrified of him!" And thats true, he also was fighting a way harder opponent, and inf act first had to waste time with naruto, and lee was no slouch, though relatively ineffective. I wouldnt expect the sound 4 to be able to stomp jinchuriki, but they should at least be able to handle 1-2 GENIN!

(it couldn't have been the sand ninja that were near orochimaru for the anbu had already took them out.)

Iirc, those were the sound 4 in disguise. It was like one of those cheesy kids shows where the two kids sneak out with one on the shoulders of the other in a long trench coat. When the sand guys got "cut in half" you see blurs shoot out of the halves and turn into the sound 4 in the anime.