afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread! (You ask, I'll answer)

[Answerer]

Cania probably clocks in at twice that (-180 Celsius, -292 Fahrenheit). It might even be worse (-250 C, -420 F).

Those "worse" numbers for reference, are somewhere on the far side of liquid nitrogen and are gettingquite close to absolute zero (-273 C, IIRC).

[Xervous]

so would it be possible to observe liquid air elementals there?

[Jon_Dahl]

Stygia's miserably cold. It doesn't obey regular laws of temperature, either; it takes a while to cling to you (about an hour) and then the suffering begins (even before that, if you come in unprotected, you're gonna have a bad time). An hour after entering Stygia, you'll start feeling the effects of severe cold, which is in the vicinity of -18 to -20 degrees Celsius (around 0 degrees Fahrenheit).

It can get colder in places, and there are regions of comparable warmth (Tantlin, the major city, isn't quite so bad, and Set's realm is a hot desert). Still, in general, Stygia's nastiness comes from the presence of the Styx, not from the cold (which ultimately you can deal with with relative ease).

Now, Cania... Cania is cold. Cania's cold hates you quite personally and wants you to know that. It's off the charts. The coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth clocked in at -89.2 degrees Celsius. Cania probably clocks in at twice that (-180 Celsius, -292 Fahrenheit). It might even be worse (-250 C, -420 F). Cania's cold is literally ten times worse than Stygia's; no degree of nonmagical protection will save you except the nonmagical protection of being somewhere else.

Thank you so much for the answer Afroakuma, especially since I had already decided that Stygia is -20 degrees, but I just wanted an answer from someone who knows it better than me

[Jigokuro]

Recent topic reminded me of a question from far far back in the tread that I don't think got solidly answered.* It was basically, "can you take water from the Styx and have it still be a potent amnesiac elsewhere?"
I have definite answer: Yes, if frozen.
Frostburn p81 detains Stygian Ice as a material for weapons and in general including that contact with it causes wisdom damage from memory loss (and raises a wraith if it is deadly). However, there is no mention that the liquid it melts into (slowly, if kept over 40F) is at all harmful.

*IIRC, there was just the note about the bar on sigil with a drink claiming to use it.

[Eldan]

Invasions (both successful and failed) of the Prime Material Plane by exemplars and other planar races are well-documented in D&D. However, what I want to know is if there's ever been a significant invasion of a plane (or layer of a plane) by Material forces. Was it successful, if so? What would it take to establish significant control over a planar layer by Prime Material forces?

There was the War of Iron. When the Harmonium had pacified it's home planet of Ortho, they decided the next step to bring Harmony to the planes was to invade the Abyss.

They failed rather miserably.

But then, the planes were never a main focus for Ortho.

[Clistenes]

There was the War of Iron. When the Harmonium had pacified it's home planet of Ortho, they decided the next step to bring Harmony to the planes was to invade the Abyss.

They failed rather miserably.

But then, the planes were never a main focus for Ortho.

I think they were just trying to take war back to the demons who had invaded Ortho. They didn't understand what that "Abyss" really was, otherwise they wouldn't have tried something like that.

[Proud Tortoise]

Now, Cania... Cania is cold. Cania's cold hates you quite personally and wants you to know that. It's off the charts. The coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth clocked in at -89.2 degrees Celsius. Cania probably clocks in at twice that (-180 Celsius, -292 Fahrenheit). It might even be worse (-250 C, -420 F). Cania's cold is literally ten times worse than Stygia's; no degree of nonmagical protection will save you except the nonmagical protection of being somewhere else.

Think Cania ever gets to, say, -273.1 degrees Celsius?

[afroakuma]

Those "worse" numbers for reference, are somewhere on the far side of liquid nitrogen and are gettingquite close to absolute zero (-273 C, IIRC).

Actually, you're looking at nitrogen ice by that point. Which leads to the fascinating possibility that all of Cania is frozen nitrogen instead of water... *hears the sound of a dying catgirl*

[Clistenes]

I think I read somewhere that, in the Spelljammer setting, spelljamming cultures and races have come to the conclusion that all the gods of the different worlds are aspects of the same multiversal pantheon (the Destroyer, the Nurturer...etc.). Do you know any sourcebook were that is explained? Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

[Go!Go!Go!]

why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war. they constantly plot his downfall. they fight each other. they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.

also, i seem to recall that there was once a creature born of an angel and a devil. what is it? can such a thing exist in RAW? what templates would it have? are there other beings born of opposing planes? Modron/Slaad?

also, that witch is awesome. my only complaint uis that its class features stop after about lvl 10 or so. you should expand on that.

[herrhauptmann]

Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

Probably just a list of archetypes. Even then, there'd be variations.

ex: Chaos.
Chaos that you get on Black Friday in America. Or the Chaos that you get right after a nuclear detonation.

In game terms:
Kelemvor is death, and judge (of the dead). But Cyric (before losing the city of the dead) was death, judge (of the dead), evil, chaos.
Lathander is sun, dawn, renewal, youth, artist, etc. Amaunator was sun, noon, time, law.
Gee, these are starting to look like a list of portfolios, aren't they?

[Proud Tortoise]

I think I read somewhere again that, in the Spelljammer setting, spelljamming cultures and races have come to the conclusion that all the gods of the different worlds are aspects of the same multiversal pantheon (the Destroyer, the Nurturer...etc.). Do you know any sourcebook were that is explained? Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

Sounds like how in Eberron, worshipers of the Sovereign Host say that all other deities are incarnations of their own.

[Lapak]

Actually, you're looking at nitrogen ice by that point. Which leads to the fascinating possibility that all of Cania is frozen nitrogen instead of water... *hears the sound of a dying catgirl*

Well, if it's THAT cold and used real physics as opposed to magical-plane-physics, magical protection wouldn't do you much good against the cold unless you have an air supply to go with it; you can't breathe 'atmosphere' that's lying at your feet in solid chunks.

[Clistenes]

why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war. they constantly plot his downfall. they fight each other. they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.

also, i seem to recall that there was once a creature born of an angel and a devil. what is it? can such a thing exist in RAW? what templates would it have? are there other beings born of opposing planes? Modron/Slaad?

also, that witch is awesome. my only complaint uis that its class features stop after about lvl 10 or so. you should expand on that.

Corcondant Killer, Monster Manual IV, page 34.

[Proud Tortoise]

why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war. they constantly plot his downfall. they fight each other. they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.

Do you think Asmodeus could win in a battle against all the other archdukes? Because I seriously doubt it.

[Tzardok]

Wow, what an awesome thread! There are some really interesting questions asked here and the answers are very good.

So it shouldn't be surprising that I have a few questions for you, too:

1. At one point in thread you said that obyrith aren't exemplars because they are not created from mortal souls. But at another point you said that modrons are not created from souls, but were something like Primus' representations in Mechanus and birthed from some kind of pools. I also read a bit at planewalker and there it was stated that yugoloths are spawned at their towers. With slaads fertilizing each other at the spawning stone and eladrin and guardinals reproducing sexually it seems as if exemplars being created from souls is the exception rather than the norm (only archons, tana'ri and baatezu). Could you please clarify?

2. Could you please tell me everything you now about rilmani? I seem not to be able to find anything substantial about them. Do they even have some equivalent to demon lords and celestial paragons?

[Xenogears]

Do you think Asmodeus could win in a battle against all the other archdukes? Because I seriously doubt it.

Asmodeous soloing the other 8? Round 1 he turns them all into lemures because he can demote any devil at a whim...

[afroakuma]

I think I read somewhere that, in the Spelljammer setting, spelljamming cultures and races have come to the conclusion that all the gods of the different worlds are aspects of the same multiversal pantheon (the Destroyer, the Nurturer...etc.). Do you know any sourcebook were that is explained? Do you know the full list of that multiversal pantheon?.

I don't recall anything of the sort.

why does asmodeus even keep the other archdukes around? they don't wage the blood war.

Bel does.

they constantly plot his downfall.

Only two of them really do that and one is a Popsicle.

they fight each other.

Self-solving problems.

they can't even take him down if they combined forced, which they wouldn't. he's better off without them, i say.

Actually, there are indications that if Baalzebul and Mephistopheles could ever stop hating one another to pieces, they could be a palpable threat to the Lord Below.

Fact is, each Lord provides structure and order to Hell that would otherwise be lacking; this effect can be seen in the former Malbolge, where the stopgap hag Lord of the Sixth was inadequate to give the layer suitable form and character, leaving it constantly eroding. When Moloch was in power, the stones rarely shifted, and concealed deep, stable caverns for the planning of dark deeds. The Hag Countess's reign was marked by avalanches and collapse.

The Lords of the Nine are also key to promoting Hell's interests; their selfishness and ambition drives them to exert personal power to extend the reach of Hell on the Prime. Mephistopheles delivers a lot of souls and worship to Asmodeus, for instance.

Most crucially, the Lords provide the architecture of Baator's hierarchy. They facilitate, operate and promulgate the bureaucracy and the rank structure in ways that ultimately tighten the Lord Below's control over the plane. It's little-known but quite true that Asmodeus does not have absolute control over his underlings. The Lords of the Nine are delicately arranged to ensure Asmodeus a firm grip on his realm.

also, that witch is awesome. my only complaint uis that its class features stop after about lvl 10 or so. you should expand on that.

Yeah, I might.

Well, if it's THAT cold and used real physics as opposed to magical-plane-physics, magical protection wouldn't do you much good against the cold unless you have an air supply to go with it; you can't breathe 'atmosphere' that's lying at your feet in solid chunks.

It doesn't use real physics; the cold is a manifestation of the plane's evil, and safe passage can be granted by Mephistopheles and his dukes. That said, I really don't know what you would do to survive Cania even with magic; you would need cold immunity to manage it (Cania is colder than the Plane of Ice) as the damage is 10d6 per minute and that is going to hurt. Resist energy will drop that down to an average of 25 cold damage per minute, while protection from energy will cover you for a maximum of 120 points of damage (~3-4 minutes) per casting.

Wow, what an awesome thread! There are some really interesting questions asked here and the answers are very good.

Why thank you!

1. At one point in thread you said that obyrith aren't exemplars because they are not created from mortal souls. But at another point you said that modrons are not created from souls, but were something like Primus' representations in Mechanus and birthed from some kind of pools. I also read a bit at planewalker and there it was stated that yugoloths are spawned at their towers. With slaads fertilizing each other at the spawning stone and eladrin and guardinals reproducing sexually it seems as if exemplars being created from souls is the exception rather than the norm (only archons, tana'ri and baatezu). Could you please clarify?

Modrons are created from souls that exist in Primus's pool. Spare souls are incarnated as coggles and moignos, lesser beings of law and structure that aid the modrons in their own way. When a modron is destroyed, its energy returns to the pool for cleaning and a fresh soul is used to deploy a replacement. Primus occasionally expands or contracts the number of modrons "in the field" at a time.

Yugoloths "spawn" (form) at the two towers, but they still come from larva. Yugoloths are capable of sexual reproduction, but they feel it produces inferior 'loths and so prefer to use gathered souls.

The Spawning Stone is not the only birthing place of the slaad. While it is powered by soulstuff (and slaad can randomly spawn across the plane from powerful chaotic souls), there are mysterious and forbidden "hatcheries" where so-called "true slaad" form. Slaad are exceptional because they can propagate in myriad ways; however, a strong chaotic soul dropped in Limbo is going to form into a slaad.

Eladrins aren't actually the feylike creatures they pose as; they're all some manner of incorporeal energy, typically a rainbow light, that can robe itself in a pleasing physical form and concentrate its energies (don't look at the eyes!) The forming of a new eladrin is actually a soul ascending to become one of these energy beings; the fleshly aspect is just a naturalization of the physical shell.

Guardinals are the tricky ones; their animal qualities are quite key to their nature. That being said, a new guardinal cannot be born without a potentiated soul becoming available; in the absence of good-aligned souls, guardinals would be stillborn.

The key to recognizing if something is soulmade or not is to examine whether or not it can take on an advanced (or reduced) form by becoming "more" of its alignment/essence/what have you. Natural-born yugoloths typically fail to show potential (which is why yugoloths don't like procuring more that way). All the beings described, though, have some ability to evolve into more powerful versions of their type with increasing personal power and purity of essence; exemplars.

2. Could you please tell me everything you now about rilmani? I seem not to be able to find anything substantial about them. Do they even have some equivalent to demon lords and celestial paragons?

Rilmani are quite obscure; I'd love to get an artist in to depict them without having been tainted by past illustrations, for creativity's sake.

We don't know if rilmani have lords per se, though one must assume that they have some kind of leader. They come in six known ranks: plumach, ferrumach, cuprilach, abiorach, argenach and aurumach. Roughly humanoid but with metallic skin, rilmani generally keep to themselves except when someone disturbs the Balance. Then they get mean.

Rilmani are actually quite powerful. And meeeean. They're cheerfully willing to go murder troublemakers, and as beings of True Neutrality, Good is on their hit list as much as Evil. They live near the Spire on the Outlands, making them the hardest planars to go and deal with at point-blank range.

You can find some adaptations in the Fiend Folio for 3E... but I wouldn't recommend it.

Asmodeous soloing the other 8? Round 1 he turns them all into lemures because he can demote any devil at a whim...

Thing is, though, that the act of demotion is a power expenditure for him, and there's no chance the others would let him do it without a struggle. Asmodeus would be in vast danger if he ever demoted more than one of them in a single go (note that he has never ever even demoted one of them outside of stripping title). The Hag Countess should not be taken as a good case study, given that she was not a true archdevil. Even still, that transformation taxed Asmodeus.

Asmodeus is not invincible; Baalzebul is gathering divine power to push back against the Lord Below and restore his own angelic form (defiance is possible). Dispater is old and cunning and has personally known Asmodeus, if rumor is true, since before the fall; he's wise to the extent of the Lord Below's power. As for Mephistopheles...

Asmodeus would win in a throwdown between himself and Mephistopheles, mano a mano. That's not a fight he wants to have, though; in addition to how much it would probably tax him (exposing him to Baalzebul and any other dangerous upstarts), Asmodeus would have to deal with Baalphegor.

Did I mention how Baalphegor is quite possibly the most terrifying known being in the Hells? If she's not a baatezu (and there's nothing saying she is; it's skated around quite thoroughly, in fact), then Asmodeus has no power to demote her, and if there's anyone in Hell with the knowledge of how to counter the Lord Below's authority, it's her.

From all practical angles, Asmodeus has the resources to win a war against one or more Lords; possibly even all eight. The personal peril it would put him in to expend that much power trying to directly crush the archdevils would be beyond the pale, though, and the chances of a pissed-off Mrs. Phistopheles aren't friendly.

[Proud Tortoise]

So if Asmodeus did go to battle with the other Archdukes, the demons, archons and possibly eladrin might be able to wipe him out?

Modrons are created from souls that exist in Primus's pool. Spare souls are incarnated as coggles and moignos, lesser beings of law and structure that aid the modrons in their own way.

Moignos are floating 2-D calculators, right? And what's a coggle?

Also, is it conceivable that the Blood War could ever be won by either side without outside intervention?

[Answerer]

Would a cessation of the considerable current outside interventions keeping it going count as outside intervention?

[JaronK]

Alright, I'd like to jump into this thread based on some personal plans.

If I wanted to count as a demon, what are some ways to go about doing that, assuming my prior form isn't demonic (say, a human)? I had thought about using the Savage Species rules to grant myself the Tenar'ri Subtype, but I wasn't quite sure. The idea here is to count as a demon for purposes of spells and effects, specifically the Extract Gift spell. Would that work? And what other methods might there be that don't involve screwing the character over in the long run?

JaronK

[Proud Tortoise]

Would a cessation of the considerable current outside interventions keeping it going count as outside intervention?

Why would it need outside intervention to keep it going?

[tyckspoon]

Why would it need outside intervention to keep it going?

In order to prevent either side from actually winning it or even just gaining too great an advantage, naturally. The Blood War draws off some of the energy and power of two really nasty places and pits it against each other, and a significant number of parties on the other Planes think that is preferable to having that energy devoted to messing with their own Planes instead. So they intervene to make sure the Blood War stays in its eternal stalemate.

[afroakuma]

So if Asmodeus did go to battle with the other Archdukes, the demons, archons and possibly eladrin might be able to wipe him out?

Not to mention one of the other Archdukes (probably not a Duke).

Moignos are floating 2-D calculators, right? And what's a coggle?

Coggles are awesome. Also known as gear spirits, they're cheerful gear-shaped beings who jump into the workings of Mechanus to help out where needed. As living gears. And they're not at all little; the smallest are a few hundred feet across, while the largest exceed a mile in diameter and are often used as flying transports for modron battalions.

Also, is it conceivable that the Blood War could ever be won by either side without outside intervention?

Depends how you define outside intervention; it's quite possible that some form of shakeup could take place, but in the grand scheme of things the two forces as they are remain quite balanced.

Come to think of it... *wanders off*

Alright, I'd like to jump into this thread based on some personal plans.

If I wanted to count as a demon, what are some ways to go about doing that, assuming my prior form isn't demonic (say, a human)?

Go chaotic evil, then die.

The idea here is to count as a demon for purposes of spells and effects, specifically the Extract Gift spell. Would that work? And what other methods might there be that don't involve screwing the character over in the long run?

Nope. "Demon" isn't a rules construct; nothing can make you qualify except playing something defined as such already; that or your DM's approval.

Why would it need outside intervention to keep it going?

It's the fear of many celestials that the Blood War will eventually wind to a close; thus, they stir the pot discreetly. Similarly, the yugoloths have it in mind to end the War on their terms, and keep unbalancing things to prevent any sort of ending that they didn't plan.

[Proud Tortoise]

Coggles are awesome. Also known as gear spirits, they're cheerful gear-shaped beings who jump into the workings of Mechanus to help out where needed.

I thought gear spirits were different, that they lived in the gears and defended them, like druids do with trees?

[TuggyNE]

They come in six known ranks: plumach, ferrumach, cuprilach, abiorach, argenach and aurumach.

So, the metals those stand for are ??, iron, copper, ??, silver, and gold?

[JaronK]

Lead is the first one (in latin it's plumbum), and that other missing one is probably mercury.

JaronK

[MeiLeTeng]

Lead is the first one (in latin it's plumbum), and that other missing one is probably mercury.

JaronK

That's what I'd guess: Mercury, they're described as having a "liquid, silver shine"

[Flickerdart]

Mercury is hydragyrum, so it doesn't seem a likely candidate for "abio".

[afroakuma]

Mercury is hydragyrum, so it doesn't seem a likely candidate for "abio".

It is actually mercury; popular thinking goes that it would have crossed into silver's territory had they used the full name, or sounded like some water elemental (hydrach?) had they shortened it, so instead they settled on "abio" to reflect the toxicity of mercury. Tin is the missing link in the order.