Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Cheesegear]

Creed, Tactical Genius;
During Deployment, choose a single infantry or vehicle unit...

Super-Heavy Vehicles;
Super-Heavy vehicles use all of the rules for vehicles...

Armoured Spearheads;
the vehicles in an Armoured Spearhead are treated as a Vehicle Squadron

'Steel Fury' Baneblade Company;
Armoured Spearhead, 3-5 Baneblades


Forget one Baneblade. Creed can Outflank five of them! Note this only works for Baneblades, as the formations of artillery and Leman Russes are Battle Formations, not ArmSpears, and thus deploy as separate units, together.

If you have WZ: Pandorax, you can also field Strike's Tank, Traitor's Bane, which is a Hellhammer with Stealth, and, against Fliers, you also have Shrouded. Because Catachans.

[Drasius]

Obligatory tactical genius picture.

[Renegade Paladin]

Creed, Tactical Genius;
During Deployment, choose a single infantry or vehicle unit...

Super-Heavy Vehicles;
Super-Heavy vehicles use all of the rules for vehicles...

Armoured Spearheads;
the vehicles in an Armoured Spearhead are treated as a Vehicle Squadron

'Steel Fury' Baneblade Company;
Armoured Spearhead, 3-5 Baneblades


Forget one Baneblade. Creed can Outflank five of them! Note this only works for Baneblades, as the formations of artillery and Leman Russes are Battle Formations, not ArmSpears, and thus deploy as separate units, together.

If you have WZ: Pandorax, you can also field Strike's Tank, Traitor's Bane, which is a Hellhammer with Stealth, and, against Fliers, you also have Shrouded. Because Catachans.

Screw that. Titan maniple.

[Tehnar]

As someone who never has had any interest in apocalypse, and thus didn't pick up any books, what will the new escalation expansion bring?

What do super heavies do anyway (rules wise)? How difficult is it to kill a Baneblade compared to a Landraider?

How will things be affected at a more modest point level, say 1500 points?

[Penguinizer]

Screw that. Titan maniple.

We had that happen in a rather silly apocalypse game between friends. A Reaver titan popped out from behind an outhouse. Strategic Genius at its finest.

[Hootman]

Aaaahhh, I love the smell of Tactical Genius in the evening...

How difficult is it to kill a Baneblade compared to a Landraider?

Honestly, not very, if you can get up close enough to use AP1 or close combat attacks on it. Monstrous Creatures are particularly well-equipped, as they come with Smash, giving them the ability to reroll vehicle damage to go for those "Explodes" (+1d3 HP of damage) results--or so I was told.


Moving in an entirely different direction for a moment, I'm looking into helping a friend develop a decent Eldar/Dark Eldar army, and having almost no experience with either of them, I could use a little advice. I know he owns more Eldar at the moment, so I guess they'd have to go Primary, but I don't know what to back them up with. I've had some vague ideas, though.

Spoiler

Show

PRIMARY
HQ
Farseer
Farseer

Elites
Striking Scorpions
Harlequins
Fire Dragons
+Wave Serpent

Troops
Guardians (EML)
Dire Avengers
+Wave Serpent
Jetbikes
Jetbikes

Heavy Support
Wraithlord
Wraithlord

ALLIES
HQ
Haemonculus

Troops
Wracks
+Speedboat

Fast Attack
The Flyer (Not-Sure-If-Boat)

Heavy Support
Ravager Laser-Boat

If my guess-timates are correct, this should end up around 2500 points or so, depending on level of equipment and whatnot obviously. I know he's not going to want to play games with that high of a point value for a while, but it's something to work with, I guess. If people could explain the really BIG holes in my plan until I can work on it more directly tomorrow when I can access the books and figure out point-cost (if nothing else), I'd appreciate it.

[Cheesegear]

Screw that. Titan maniple.

A Titan Maniple (at least, the one in Pandorax) is a Battle Formation, not a Spearhead, so...Illegal. You can have one, though.

As someone who never has had any interest in apocalypse, and thus didn't pick up any books, what will the new escalation expansion bring?

It's Apocalypse, for people who can't afford Apocalypse. I expect it to be banned in any reasonable environment. So, I wont comment on it further until I know more.

How will things be affected at a more modest point level, say 1500 points?

It makes frequent references to 'Lords of War', which, is a mechanic used in the Heresy army lists and is only 1 per 2000 Points...So, not at all? Maybe. Depends if GW keeps it consistent or not.

[Cheesegear]

...I didn't buy Escalation. Here's what I read;

You get one 'Lord of War' slot per Primary Detachment. Where a LoW is a Super-Heavy or Gargantuan.
The Super-Heavy and Gargantuan rules are copy-pasted out of the Apocalypse book. Not even kidding. The page layouts are exactly the same with the tables even in the same place.

The Super-Heavies and Gargantuans are also copy-pasted from Apocalypse. So, if you have the main Apoc book, you'll be paying extra money to get those rules, again. Because of the stupidity involved, I skipped over most of them, and I don't recall if I saw the Shadowsword or not. But the Tau did get their Tiger Shark included.

You get one VP for every thee Hull Points or Wounds you take off of a Lord of War. This means Gargantuans are garbage. If you've rocked up with a Devastator or Centurion squad, you'll be stripping wounds immediately. Note, however, that this does not include Hull Points stripped after they've been repaired.
...So, a Baneblade, Battle Brothers with Iron Hands, has 9 HPs. You need to get it down to six before you get one VP. If the Iron Hands allies can keep repairing it (and why wouldn't they?), then they get a free unkillable, no-downside brick.

So...I don't know. Ever wanted to field a Super-Heavy, but can't afford the rest of the 5K points you need to play Apocalypse? Well, now you can. It reeks of 'Hey guys, it's Christmas, buy more models!' and I expect it to be banned immediately.
Of course, on the other hand, Super-Heavies with high AV shut down Tau and Eldar pretty fast. So maybe some meta-games with those sorts of problems will allow Lords of War.

Final verdict, if you've bought the Apocalypse main rulebook, you should be pissed off. Because the Escalation book is basically that, with all the Formations cut out, leaving you with Super-Heavies and Gargantuans only and two extra pages for extra Warlord Traits (ever wondered why the Imperial Guard tanks have 'may be an HQ model' on them? It's so they can be cut-and-pasted into Escalation with zero formatting required).
If I'm not mistaken, Imperial Guard can take two Super-Heavies, one, as a HQ/Warlord, and another in their Lord of War slot. But, again, I didn't really check because my eyes glazed over when I realised I was reading a copy-paste job.

[Grim Portent]

Does it include the Khorne superheavy in the rules? Because if it does I might actually go temporarily mad and buy one of the ugly brutes.

[Tychris1]

Can Tyranids field their Heirophant Bio Titan? If so i'll finally be able to dust the thing off and have a center piece for Hive Fleet Kaiju ("Lord, a new monster is coming in from the Bio Fleet!" "What Category?" "CATEGORY 5 MY LORD!" "May Khaine have mercy on our souls...."). Or are we stuck with Heirodules.

Also, Strength-D is unchanged?

[Issabella]

I gave in and bought it, and by the wording, it seems that only the Super Heavies provided in escalation are the only acceptable options? Which means first of all Sisters get nothing (but that is hardly a suprise.) Tyranids only have the big flying Haradin, and Chaos (deamon and other wise) can only produce a Khorne super heavy.

Strong holds does allow the vortex missle firing Aquilla strong hold non apoc now also.

[Cheesegear]

I gave in and bought it, and by the wording, it seems that only the Super Heavies provided in escalation are the only acceptable options?

Certainly seems that way. Since I did gloss over the entire book, how many things have Str-D? Because since Escalation is not Apoc, the only way you're going to beat a Super-Heavy with Str-D is with your own Str-D.

Y'know. Fliers to beat Fliers. Buy more kits to beat more kits.

While Escalation may not get banned due to it's ability to smash Eldar, Tau and Daemons in the face; I see no reason why anybody would allow Dataslate Formations.
Second, I don't care how cheap Dataslates are to buy. If you support Dataslates, you support 'Microtransaction 40K' and I will hate you forever.

[Issabella]

Each of the lord of war options provided in Escalation come with a paragraph that it may only be taken with primary detatchment X, so no allied Lord of Wars, no Sisters/Inquisition Super heavies (suck it digital!)

To Answer Cheesegear, the strength D's provided

Imp Guard: Shadow Sword

Marines (all the colours of the Rainbow; ie every power armour imperial faction san sisters) Thunderhawk can take an upgrade for a strength D (and why wouldn't you?)

Chaos: Close combat weapon on the Lawnmower of Khorne

Orks: Close combat weapon on the Stompa

Necrons: upgraded power on the Tesserach vault or Transcendent C'tan.

Eldar/D.eldar: clear winner hands down with the Revant Titan with two Heavy 2, large blast D weapons.

As an aside the stronghold book makes the Aquilla strong point legal for 40k now, which can either have a D cannon, or a battery of D vortex missiles. And it's AV 15, massive fortification comming here to normal 40k.

[Cheesegear]

that it may only be taken with primary detatchment X

I think that's the biggest problem. The only players who really 'win' by having Escalation on the board is Imperial Guard. And that's a huge benefit monetary wise. 3 Leman Russes are roughly 500 Points and cost over $200AUD, where the same points can be a Baneblade or Shadowsword for about three quarters the price...And is a Super-Heavy.

Eldar/D.eldar: clear winner hands down with the Revant Titan with two Heavy 2, large blast D weapons.

Yeah. Eldar are the 'winners'. How much does a Revenant Titan cost these days?

[bluntpencil]

Is the Revenant Titan capable of hitting the Thunderhawks with their Strength D weapons? Since they're blast, they shouldn't hit Flyers, right?

[Volthawk]

Is the Revenant Titan capable of hitting the Thunderhawks with their Strength D weapons? Since they're blast, they shouldn't hit Flyers, right?

Yeah, all the Strength D in Escalation is either template (large blast or hellstorm) or melee, so the Thunderhawk is immune to all the other Escalation Strength D stuff.

[Voidhawk]

Yeah, all the Strength D in Escalation is either template (large blast or hellstorm) or melee, so the Thunderhawk is immune to all the other Escalation Strength D stuff.

Yes, but when was the last time you saw anyone with a Thunderhawk? Or even heard of one? One of my friends jokingly suggested scratchbuilding one out of cardboard boxes and sprues, but that's as close as I ever got.

[iyaerP]

Yes, but when was the last time you saw anyone with a Thunderhawk? Or even heard of one? One of my friends jokingly suggested scratchbuilding one out of cardboard boxes and sprues, but that's as close as I ever got.

One of the guys who I play firestorm armada with has a thunderhawk. But this is the same guy who has enough wargaming models that he could sell them and buy a new house.

[Timberwolf]

Yes, but when was the last time you saw anyone with a Thunderhawk? Or even heard of one? One of my friends jokingly suggested scratchbuilding one out of cardboard boxes and sprues, but that's as close as I ever got.

I know 2 guys who have one. However, I know 4 people with reaver titans which says a lot to me about popularity and where peoples money goes.

[Cheesegear]

Yes, but when was the last time you saw anyone with a Thunderhawk? Or even heard of one? One of my friends jokingly suggested scratchbuilding one out of cardboard boxes and sprues, but that's as close as I ever got.

I was planning to buy one. But then I realised I could buy three Stormravens for the same price for roughly the same points, transporting roughly the same amount of models (30), Damnos let me field them in Formation with access to Str-D, Concussive (yeah, like that ain't broke...An'Ggrath at I1 getting his face beat in by Lysander).

...Then Escalation came out and now I'm pissed.

[Issabella]

IA two 2nd edition has found its way into my Forge World loving hands. New Lords of War. Campaign honours. And goodies for all power armour wearing loyalists. I will try to answer any questions if anyone has any.

[Grim Portent]

A question to all my fellow chaos marine players: What would you like to see in future codex supplements for our faction?

Personally I'd like to see an Alpha Legion codex that a) gives the Alpha Legion a unique character and b) makes it possible to infiltrate stuff for a small points increase, even just cultists would be nice.

Second to that I'd like an Iron Warriors codex that gives a) unique character and b) more dakka. You always need more dakka.

[Jormengand]

Stronghold assault. New book of building stuff. Allows cheap building which allows you to torrent by making your flamers heavy. Allows vortex missile thing with 7 missiles for a little under 600 points. Allows buildings of invulns. Allows you to actually use the honoured imperium stuff. Allows you to take several buildings in one slot.

The torrent thing and battlesuits with flamer and tl flamer is hereby declared horrible due to your ability to kill almost any squad you like. Marching a squad of burna boyz into it and giving them the thing of invulns as part of the same slot (total of 90 points for the whole thing, then the burna boyz, but you can have 3 of each if you're willing to fill out your elites and pay a total of about 1000 points for the three squads and the fort - though, clever placement of shield things may reduce this cost). If you then make the rest of your army out of marines with a conversion beamer (At last! A use for the MotF!) and TF cannons to force the enemy to come to you, or something similar, before burning anyone so bold or so foolish as to come within 21" of your burna boyz, (the promethium relays and shield things can't even be destroyed, so you're safe from that) then you kill everything.

Guard SWSs also work with this.

Can't say I'm a fan of it. It basically encourages honestly silly lists, and I don't like silly.

[13_CBS]

A question to all my fellow chaos marine players: What would you like to see in future codex supplements for our faction?

Personally I'd like to see an Alpha Legion codex that a) gives the Alpha Legion a unique character and b) makes it possible to infiltrate stuff for a small points increase, even just cultists would be nice.

Second to that I'd like an Iron Warriors codex that gives a) unique character and b) more dakka. You always need more dakka.

Thousand Sons, but then I am eternally a Thousand Sons fanboy.

Though you have a point; making a Alpha Legion-style sneaky cultists army more viable would be really awesome to see.

[DaedalusMkV]

A question to all my fellow chaos marine players: What would you like to see in future codex supplements for our faction?

Night Lords. Raptors as Troops, terror tactics (Fear everywhere, infantry packing Dirge Caster equivalents, that sort of thing), lots of speed for the army. No Cult Troops, but maybe slightly better generic CSM and Raptors to make up for it.

No, I'm not just saying that because my own CSM fight like Night Lords all the time.

[Cheesegear]

IA two 2nd edition has found its way into my Forge World loving hands. New Lords of War. Campaign honours. And goodies for all power armour wearing loyalists. I will try to answer any questions if anyone has any.

I ordered it on the 2nd, which was apparently their last shipping day. I should also have it by the end of the week. Hopefully.

[Issabella]

It is the usual fluff'tastic FW production in history, lore, and details. It consolidated marine vehicles that are spead around different volumes into one neat book. Expanded lord of war options for escalation. Codex marines make out like bandits, but enough vehicles to give a reason for SW, BA, DA, GK and even sisters a reason to purchase.

By for the most interesting in the campaign legacies, essentialy 1 per 1kpt of the army, no repeats, the vehicle fought in a famouse campaign and can get some great bonuses.

[Cheesegear]

It is the usual fluff'tastic FW production in history, lore, and details.

Any cross-sections? I like cross-sections.

[deuterio12]

Night Lords. Raptors as Troops, terror tactics (Fear everywhere, infantry packing Dirge Caster equivalents, that sort of thing), lots of speed for the army. No Cult Troops, but maybe slightly better generic CSM and Raptors to make up for it.

No, I'm not just saying that because my own CSM fight like Night Lords all the time.

The Horus Heresy:Massacre book has rules for the Night Lords legion. Fear everywhere, have a chance to force Night Fighting, and an elite CSM squad with infiltrate that can be taken as troops (they also have super-raptors, but fast attack only). Best of all is that Fear actually does something in WH 30K, since ATSKNF doesn't exist (most power armor dudes just have "can regroup if below 50% starting size", with some stubborns here and there and then a few Fearless units).

[Issabella]

Any cross-sections? I like cross-sections.

One for pretty much evey vehicle, don't think Fell blade, but a good number of vehicles.