Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread VIII: "Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER"

[Cheesegear]

Where do Titan Legions draw their future Princeps and Moderati from? The Lexicanum suggests that the Mechanicus is forced to draw from a very large applicant pool since the willpower required to pilot a Titan is immense. Does this mean that they recruit from outside the Mechanicus? Would it be feasible that a future Titan Princeps was born among the lowest-class citizens of a Hive?

The Collegia Titanica is a special branch of - and under the guise of - the Adeptus Mechanicus. Since the AdMech generally maintains a solid presence on Forge Worlds, this is where most of the recruits come from. Theoretically - like Space Marines - anyone who has potential to be one, can be snapped up by anyone who knows what they're looking for.

Do we know what sort of place these academies are like? Are the harsh and brutal, or are they much like a Schola Progenium

Schola Progeniums are also harsh and brutal. The Cain books have misled you. Also, technically, it can be said that the Schola that Cain keeps talking about, doesn't actually exist, and Cain is so traumatised by his childhood experiences that he has fabricated his entire childhood in his brain.

How long are Princeps and Moderati trained? At what age do they start getting plugged into Titans and sent off on executions?

They're trained for a long time.
Who knows? Pretty much unilaterally, all the Princeps that are shown in the Fluff are a century or two (or more!) old.

Would a Princeps who originates from the dregs of a hive city make sense?

Not usually. A representative of the Collegia would have to be on the planet for some reason, or, failing that, an AdMech who knows what they're looking for.

Would a 20 year old Princeps make sense? What about a 30 year old one? 40 years old?

No. No. Maybe as a Moderati in a Warhound, but definitely not a Princeps and definitely not in anything bigger than a Warhound.
How old are Aruken and Cassar meant to be in the Horus Heresy?


...Now I need to read Titanicus again. ...Damn?

[Zorg]

what are some reasonable answers to these questions? For example...

Would a Princeps who originates from the dregs of a hive city make sense?
Would a 20 year old Princeps make sense? What about a 30 year old one? 40 years old?

Cheese covered the basics of what the current background covers (not much, most of it vague or contradictory). My suppositions to your questions: Hive dreg Princeps? Not really, mostly because how would the Mechanicus / Legio find them?
Now, the Titan Legions are somewhat separate from the AdMech, as they are far more aligned with the Imperial Cult than straight Omnisiah worship (one of the Divios is the Divisio Mandati who primarily command Emperor class titans as mobile cathedrals/conversion centres). This would indicate a fair cross population with non-Forge World worlds. Also there are cases of Legio forces being based on non-Forge Worlds, such Legio Metallica on Armageddon.

20 year old Princeps? Unlike Cheese, I would be open to such a thing, but they'd likely not be in anything other than a Warhound or a Reaver. This is simply a matter of pilot life-span and personality. You need angry people to pilot Warhounds, and what better than someone just out of puberty? Also while some pilots live hundreds of years a Legio in an extended conflict (such as Legio Destructor during Armageddon III) may start losing pilots but have operable machines.
Outside of such circumstances it could be a bit odd though. Mind you in my background for my legio they clone the pilots, taking a mental imprint before each battle so the titan has the same crew forever.

Which is why I think training wouldn't as long as Cheese implies as it would be impractical from a military POV, and the dialogue from various characters in universe - the Dies Irae crew talk about getting promoted as if it can happen in the near future. I personally don't think training would be that long a process if a potential candidate had the right mental fortitude.
That said, actually getting a command would be hard as new Titans aren't built very often and good Princeps' don't die very often either and are effectively immortal due to AdMech tech.
On the other hand the different Legios are about as different as Marine Chapters with their own rites and ways of doing things - just because Abnett wrote some things doesn't make it the only way (especially given his own occasionally cavalier attitude to core canon) and even in the newer Titan lore there are still a lot of different ways things are done.

[Tehnar]

According to Lexicanuum they are recruited by Collegia Titanica from a wide pool of recruits as the mental willpower required is achievable by only a few.

So I could totally see a hive dreg get to pilot a titan, japanise mecha story style.

[hamishspence]

Schola Progeniums are also harsh and brutal. The Cain books have misled you.

Cain's Last Stand made it clear that, in some respects, it is kind of brutal. Commissar training involving executing condemned prisoners, for example.

[GolemsVoice]

Outside of such circumstances it could be a bit odd though. Mind you in my background for my legio they clone the pilots, taking a mental imprint before each battle so the titan has the same crew forever.

Cloning? Isn't that one of the big taboos of the Imperium, or am I mistaken?

[Grim Portent]

Cloning? Isn't that one of the big taboos of the Imperium, or am I mistaken?

It is considered taboo, though there are some exceptions. Mostly the tech that could be used to grow clones is used to grow natural/genetically altered human embryos to term. Most are used for servitor components, some are the Death Korps of Krieg, and the others get used for myriad stuff.

[Wraith]

It's a dark-grey area.

Cloning individual organs and limbs for the likes of transplants is fine - expensive, but otherwise just a part of medical technology available to those who can afford it. Inquisitor Eisenhorn gets a new hand this way after his is cut off and never mentions it again.

Cloning whole bodies as vat-grown, mindless husks can be done, but it's like owning a set of lockpicks. Owning them in and of itself isn't illegal, but everything that you can *DO* with them, is. Again, Eisenhorn uses a mind-wiped clone SPOILER: as fodder for a Daemonhost, and not only can he get it only because he is an Inquisitor but he is ashamed that he has to do so and never, ever mentions it to any of his allies.

Using clones as a perfect copy of a person, with the same mind and memories of the original, is strictly the domain of guys like Fabius Bile. And even when he did it to Horus, he outraged the Black Legion who personally took it down and made sure it could never, ever happen again. Traitor Marines consider the process to be taboo!

[hamishspence]

Using clones as a perfect copy of a person, with the same mind and memories of the original, is strictly the domain of guys like Fabius Bile. And even when he did it to Horus, he outraged the Black Legion who personally tookit down and made sure it could never, ever happen again.

I think a point was made in the Black Legion supplement that the clones were a long way from being "perfect copies" in any case - with each clone being worse than the last.

[Cheesegear]

And even when he did it to Horus [...] Traitor Marines consider the process to be taboo!

No, it's just that Abaddon is the only clone allowed.

[Grim Portent]

While we're discussing clones and their ilk I want to propose something:

As I understand it vat grown and vitae womb born humans have a risk of deformity and mutations as a side effect of their chemical amniotics.

I can't help but wonder if it would be possible to use non-sterilized female servitors for a similar purpose with a lower risk of errors. A sufficiently unmodified servitor is functionally a human with no free will and barely any mind after all, so it should function much the same as a surrogate mother does today.

This would be very creepy, as it is basically using brain dead humans as walking wombs, but I can't help but think it might be a practical way for important figures to be cloned or have genhanced children grown for them.

[Lix Lorn]

...this sounds like Dwarf Fortress: Space Hulk edition.

[Cheesegear]

This would be very creepy, as it is basically using brain dead humans as walking wombs

Yup.
Game over.
That's the creepiest thing I've ever heard of.
You win.
Congratulations.
Grim Portent wins the GrimDark medal.

It's going in my next Dark Heresy adventure.

[hamishspence]

It sounds a lot like how the Tleilaxu do things in the Dune-verse.

[Wraith]

For the record, the Imperium does have ARTIFICIAL wombs of the not-so brain melting variety. Their mind-wiped full-body clones are grown in them.

Why they don't use servitors as well, is a question that I have never considered. Or wanted to consider. Thanks for that.

....Along similar lines.... Why not Servitor brothels? It's not like you have to pay them, or furnish their rooms, or anything... and you can pretty much augment them however you want for.... 'specific tastes'

[Grim Portent]

Yup.
Game over.
That's the creepiest thing I've ever heard of.
You win.
Congratulations.
Grim Portent wins the GrimDark medal.

It's going in my next Dark Heresy adventure.

Should I take a bow?

It sounds a lot like how the Tleilaxu do things in the Dune-verse.

I've heard a bit about the Dune-verse from my brother, didn't know they did any clone/vat grown human stuff in it, though I've been told it's quite a grim setting so I'm not too suprised.

For the record, the Imperium does have ARTIFICIAL wombs of the not-so brain melting variety. Their mind-wiped full-body clones are grown in them.

Vitae Wombs is the name I've seen used for them. I think they're meant to be the iconic glass tank with the human floating in them hooked up to cables.

EDIT: Just recalled that Siege of Castellax refers to embryo farms. Some kind of storage system/slave growth method.

Why they don't use servitors as well, is a question that I have never considered. Or wanted to consider. Thanks for that.

....Along similar lines.... Why not Servitor brothels? It's not like you have to pay them, or furnish their rooms, or anything... and you can pretty much augment them for.... 'specific tastes'

The idea for Pleasure Servitors did occur to me a few months ago when I was thinking about possible ways to raise crew morale in RT. I haven't decided if it would be easier to just pay some crew a slightly higher wage in exchange for serving as 'Tension Relievers'.

[bluntpencil]

This is asking for all sorts of burning and purging.

I love it, you creepy bastards.

[Wraith]

The idea for Pleasure Servitors did occur to me a few months ago when I was thinking about possible ways to raise crew morale in RT. I haven't decided if it would be easier to just pay some crew a slightly higher wage in exchange for serving as 'Tension Relievers'.

I'm not going to lie - I very nearly linked that last post to a video of FISTO the sexbot from Fallout: New Vegas. But, sadly(?), it contained swearing and thus was prohibited by forum rules.

Rules which, incidentally, don't necessarily forbid forcing SAN checks on each other. Always wondered about that oversight....

[Grim Portent]

I'm not going to lie - I very nearly linked that last post to a video of FISTO the sexbot from Fallout: New Vegas. But, sadly(?), it contained swearing and thus was prohibited by forum rules.

Already made the mental connection to that robot. Already made the connection. I may need brain bleech.

[Ionbound]

Here's a question: Why are there no Chaos Eldar? I realize the Dark Eldar probably count, but there doesn't seem to be any who have been utterly corrupted and actually openly serve the Ruinous Powers.

[hamishspence]

Arhra, founder of the Striking Scorpions used to be portrayed that way: he who "burns with the dark light of Chaos".

[Kris Strife]

Here's a question: Why are there no Chaos Eldar? I realize the Dark Eldar probably count, but there doesn't seem to be any who have been utterly corrupted and actually openly serve the Ruinous Powers.

That's usually because if they try Slaneesh eats their souls.

[Grim Portent]

Arhra's true fate was revealed in Path of the Incubus, While the craftworlders claim he was corrupted by chaos and betrayed his brothers the Incubi say

Spoiler

Show

That he disagreed with the other phoenix lords about the role of the dark eldar. He felt they were just as important as the maiden-worlders and craftworlders and left to help them by teaching them. After some time training the Incubi orders he left and returned corrupted by chaos, he killed a lot of them because they could not bring themselves to fight him until he spoke to them from within the corrupt aura and told them to strike him down.

[Zorg]

This would be very creepy, as it is basically using brain dead humans as walking wombs, but I can't help but think it might be a practical way for important figures to be cloned or have genhanced children grown for them.

There used to be a lot of that sort of stuff in the Rogue Trader era books, actually. Marines kept slaves whose job was to be incubators for growing the organs that would then be cut out of them and implanted in prospective marines, the AdMech have their servitors, which most of the time are actually people (with no self control but potentially varying degrees of self-awareness) and so on.

But that sort of thing is a bit more downplayed as slavery and all the implications thereof (see above pleasure servitors - is it a mindless clone, or someone who got kidnapped and mindwiped? How to turn your RPG into a soul destroying, abuse flashback triggering experience in one easy step!) are pretty unsavoury and hard to handle well. And given how GW handles serious issues (ie it doesn't) that's for the best I think.


@ firedaemon33- Short answer: Slaanesh eats them. Long answer: There are archaic and obtuse references to full on chaos Eldar who would predate the fall, but most refer to them as on par with Daemon Princes in terms of power level and Demon Primarchs in rarity.
They're probably never brought up to reduce the effect of the "good vs evil" that having many races having a chaos counterpart would bring on.

[Wraith]

Already made the mental connection to that robot. Already made the connection. I may need brain bleech.

Spoiler

Show

Sleep tight.

[Grim Portent]

Spoiler

Show

Sleep tight.

That put a grin on my face.

[Kesnit]

I'm not going to lie - I very nearly linked that last post to a video of FISTO the sexbot from Fallout: New Vegas. But, sadly(?), it contained swearing and thus was prohibited by forum rules.

Already made the mental connection to that robot. Already made the connection. I may need brain bleech.

That was my first thought, too.

[13_CBS]

Schola Progeniums are also harsh and brutal. The Cain books have misled you. Also, technically, it can be said that the Schola that Cain keeps talking about, doesn't actually exist, and Cain is so traumatised by his childhood experiences that he has fabricated his entire childhood in his brain.

Fair enough, though the Schola that Cain helps run in Perlia (in Cain's Last Stand, in-universe chronologically one of the later books when he's retired) seems almost pleasant. Yeah, the rookie Commissars had to purge a mining asteroid of lesser Tyranids that one time, and 2 of them got fragged, but I imagined Schola Progeniums as being, like, a boot camp for kids, with scourging for punishment and most of the students being raised up as personality-less soldiers. Maybe Cain's Schola was just unusually relaxed?

[Cheesegear]

Spoiler

Show

Sleep tight.

...We can't be friends anymore.

with scourging for punishment and most of the students being raised up as personality-less soldiers. Maybe Cain's Schola was just unusually relaxed?

It's probably something to do with who or what the Schola generates people for. I imagine that a school for Officers and Commissars is going to constantly praise the kids and tell them how ultra-special they are. Scholas on Hive Worlds that generate Stormtroopers or Sororitas are going to punish and brutalise the children. There's also a massive difference between Scholas for Nobles, and Scholas for orphans. Forge World Scholas may as well the equivalent of Hell-on-Earth...And then after that, the kid gets Servitor'd.

In one of my Dark Heresy games, I set up a Hive World, and the only way for the children to ever get fed, was to do well at the Schola. If they didn't attend, and do well in exams and aptitude tests, they didn't get fed.

[GolemsVoice]

Wasn't there something about all schola progenium children being orphans? Or was that just for commissars? I really can't remember, but I think I read it in some Eisenhorn novel.

I bet commissars get brutalized, too, not only because this is basically the standard approach the Imperium takes to education, but also because they have to be HARD. Hard enough that charging forward against multiple hellish enemies can seem easier than retreating against one single person.

[Cheesegear]

Wasn't there something about all schola progenium children being orphans?

Some are, some aren't. One thing is for sure though, orphans are never in the same Schola as the cool kids who still have parents.

Hard enough that charging forward against multiple hellish enemies can seem easier than retreating against one single person.

Lose parents.
Get dumped in schola.
???
Become Batman.