Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

[TheSummoner]

Oh, don't worry, I'm not about to devote my time and energy into chasing a relationship that has no chance of happening. I'm undecided on whether or no I'm going to try to stay in contact (as friends of course), but in either case, it's unlikely I'd see her in person with the possible exception of future conventions.

Going forward, one thing I've thought about after this is just being completely upfront about it if I find someone attractive, but I'm concerned that doing that would carry the wrong sort of connotation. I worry something like that might imply that I'm only interested in sex. It would be a lie to say I'm not interested, but it isn't my focus or priority.

[Jallorn]

wrt convention girl, I would certainly consider it likely that she was a little flirty, but likely had no further intentions. Sucks a bit that you clicked so well and she's not single, but at least you can take away a little confidence boost that she was at least intrigued by you.

And I wouldn't consider flirting while in a relationship a red flag. Maybe a yellow one, something to watch and see if it's a sign of something worse, but by itself it's really no harm.

[Aedilred]

And I wouldn't consider flirting while in a relationship a red flag. Maybe a yellow one, something to watch and see if it's a sign of something worse, but by itself it's really no harm.

Flirting in itself, no. But if she is interested in actually pursuing a relationship with someone else while already in one, and would vocalise that and keep the other person around... I wouldn't take that as a good sign. But then I have a very low tolerance threshold for that sort of thing.

[Jallorn]

Flirting in itself, no. But if she is interested in actually pursuing a relationship with someone else while already in one, and would vocalise that and keep the other person around... I wouldn't take that as a good sign. But then I have a very low tolerance threshold for that sort of thing.

Oh yeah, but that's not what's going on. Also there's poly, which isn't for everyone, but is also not, imo, morally wrong.

[Coidzor]

Oh yeah, but that's not what's going on. Also there's poly, which isn't for everyone, but is also not, imo, morally wrong.

Indeed, it's not morally wrong, but it is something that generally one would know about a hypothetical person or group of people well before it became pertinent due to the care that they have to take, at least in most of the parts of Western Society I'm familiar with.

[Hallavast]

I haven't posted anything on here for years, I think. I mostly just pop in once a week to see if there's a new comic up.

I feel a need to tell my story, but I can't tell it to any of my friends or family, so you guys get to be the audience. I don't know if any advice would help or not, but feel free to give it.

I was engaged to a wonderful woman for about a year until I went on a trip for work out of state last week. While I was there, I missed her dearly, and messaged and called her daily. She told me she had been diagnosed with pre-cancerous cells and needed minor surgery. I was worried about her and told her everything would be okay, and I would come home immediately if she needed me. She said she was fine. Her surgery was not serious and would take place after I returned anyway.

After that, her responses to me calling her began growing more and more cryptic and I sensed something else was wrong. At one point, I casually asked, "do you miss me?". She said "I don't know". The next day I asked what was wrong. She said we would discuss it when I returned. I asked her, incredulously, if she was leaving me. She changed the subject. I said "that means yes, doesn't it". She said we would discuss it when I got home.

I was from then on an absolute nervous wreck. I drove home when the job was over with my mind grasping wildly for answers. I thought it was a nightmare. It was only the beginning.

When I got home she said she wasn't happy and didn't want to marry me anymore. I asked why, but the only answer I received was "you stress me out, and we aren't right for each other, and I don't want to face this (her medical problems) and try to work things out with you at the same time".I was hurt, and told her that she made me the happiest I'd ever been. She said she was sorry, but she was leaving and never coming back after her operation.

At first I told myself it was just her being scared about the cancer. Then I noticed little things that were going on between our roommate and her. They would do everything together, grocery shop, cook, walk the dog... Whenever she talked to him, her face would light up, and she would forget her melancholy and my distress.

I love my roommate like a brother, and I've trusted him completely with my life. I still love him like a brother.

But when I asked her, quietly, if she was in love with him, she said, eventually, "yes". I then learned that they loved each other. They hadn't betrayed me, they both swore, and I believe them. She told me she still loves me, but she can't be with me; that she loves him more.

They had planned to drive up together to her parents' house out of state after her surgery. They expected me to stay here and move on, and for my roommate to move away. We would all go our separate ways miserably.

She couldn't stay with me, because she loves him, and she couldn't be with him, because she didn't want to hurt me. But she wanted him and not me. I was destroyed.

I decided to kill myself. I told her a lie. I told her that if she chose him, she should be with him and to ignore what I wanted. I told her I would go away to my Uncle's out of state, and they didn't have to give each other up for my sake. She then told him the same thing. They were both speechless. I told them that all I wanted was to make her happy. She couldn't be happy with me, but she could lead a happy life with him, and I would be content knowing I had given her a chance for happiness. I told him he could give her the life I wanted to share with her. This discussion happened on the 4th of July.

I had planned to either kill myself in traffic, or go to my mother's house to put a bullet in my brain. On the way I realized something. If I did that, she wouldn't be happy. He might have killed himself in guilt. He was coming out of his own failed engagement and was depressed. I couldn't do that to him. And I couldn't throw everything I'd tried to give her away. I called my Uncle and made arrangements to move in with him far away from our little apartment with the memories of my former life.

Now I believe the lie.

I will go on. I will build a new life somewhere thousands of miles away. I have no idea how to start. All I know is that I must first unravel the rest of my life here before I can start over.

I don't know if I will ever trust or truly love another woman, but I know that I don't want to be alone. I hate my roommate but still love him dearly. I still love my ex. She is still the only thing that matters to me. But I can not be close to either of them anymore. My only salvation is keeping the promise I made to her and to myself to always put her first and try to give her the best life I know how. Even if I can no longer share that life. I have to believe they will be happy, and that I can make something else worthwhile in this world.

I leave for my Uncle's house next week to start my new life. Now my watch begins.

[rs2excelsior]

...wow. Okay.

So I think most of the folks here will agree with me--look into professional help. If you've had suicidal thoughts, much less started making a plan to do it, seeing a therapist would probably be best.

Other than that... congratulations. You got put in a horrible situation, worse than I can imagine, and yet you're going off and starting fresh--that takes courage. I can't tell you how to do that, but I will wish you the best of luck. Just pick a direction and go for it, and don't ever give up.

I'll leave it off to someone who might have better advice than me, but... we'll be here for you.

[Douglas]

Yeah, definitely seek professional therapy, if you find a good therapist you should have a much easier time getting to a point where you are functional and happy again. And even if you don't care about that right now for yourself, keep in mind that it's likely what both of them would want for you.

On the plus side, it's good that you realized suicide leaves giant gaping holes in other people's lives, not merely ending your own.

[TheSummoner]

It's nearly 5am and I can't sleep. I keep thinking about things and it's depressing me. It isn't about the girl I mentioned before, but more my situation in general. I mentioned before that I considered being upfront about things when a girl catches my interest. What I didn't mention was that after what happened with the girl in the story, I did try this and met with no success. Now I'm dwelling on that and wondering if I went about it in a bad way or maybe if the idea in general is just a bad one.

I just worry that such a direct approach, or at least the way I did things might send the wrong message about my intent. What would be a good way to say "I find you attractive and interesting and would like to spend time with you with the possibility of building towards a relationship if everything clicks" that wouldn't be mistaken for "I would like you in my bed tonight"?

I can't help but think that making things obvious would save trouble all around. If someone isn't interested, she only has to say so and I know not to push the issue. At the same time though, what reason would anyone have to be interested enough in me to want to spend time together after as little as a single conversation? It's not like "You're cute. hang out with me" would be the first thing I said to someone, but it's still not a lot of time...

Spoiler: Depressed, possibly incoherent ranting that I'll probably regret later

Show

I also keep going back to some advice I was given over the weekend as well. It seems like good advice, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that I'm not sure how to follow it. That's the problem really, too much thinking. The advice was to follow my heart instead of my brain. Not to do anything stupid, but not to let my brain dictate everything. At this point though, I'm not even sure if I want what I think I want anymore. Maybe I do... Or maybe I just cling to those standards because compromising them would be in some way, an admission that the time I've spent alone up to this point would've been a waste... Or maybe thinking that is just desperation wanting me to give in on the grounds that anything would be better than nothing. I don't know if I can tell the difference anymore.

The same people who offered that advice also said not to compromise on my standards. That said, I didn't tell them what they were, and I know that it isn't making it any easier for me to find someone. My friends (who are never in contact with me unless I contact them first and half the time don't respond even when I do that) have told me I need to let a few things go and that I'm sabotaging myself. I know I sabotage myself, and I'm trying to work on that by forcing myself to speak to people and be more social, but I don't know if I can agree that wanting what I want is the same as (at least previously) being too meek to initiate a conversation (not that it's ceased to be an issue entirely, but it's much less of one).

No clue if any of that makes sense or if I expressed what I wanted to, or even what I wanted to express in the first place. I would probably be drunk right now, but I don't drink. That would probably make it easier to turn my brain off, but it's another one of those stupid things that I haven't compromised on. So instead of ranting through a drunken haze, I'm doing it while losing a fight to insomnia and listening to Somebody to Love by Queen. There's more bothering me, but beyond this point (and even dealing with some of the stuff up to this point) it gets more personal and I'm not sure if the urge to get it out outweighs the aversion to saying more.

I don't know. That's the problem. I don't know and because I can't turn my brain off, not knowing does this sort of thing to me. It keeps me up until 5am and makes me a miserable wreck.

[Sholos]

So this morning I got a fun text from someone that I thought I was developing a friendship with and it essentially said that she'd never felt comfortable hanging out with me because I'm older and she feels we never should have met. Oh, and to add to the injury, she made sure to mention that she thought I was a good person and a nice guy. So basically she just thinks I'm pathetic. Too pathetic for her to hang out with.

[Amaril]

Hey guys, I need some advice again.

There's this girl I want to ask out, but there are a couple of possible problems. One, I don't know for sure whether she's single, although I'm reasonably certain she is; she herself said as much in conversation recently, and my only indication that she might not be is that some of my other friends have told me otherwise, but I see no reason to trust them over her when I can't imagine why she wouldn't have been honest in that situation. Two (and this is the only reason the first thing could actually be a problem), she's told me she's poly, and I'm not, but I haven't had occasion to make that explicitly clear to her. Now, if the only concern was whether she was single, I'd just ask her out anyway, and rely on her to tell me if she was already seeing someone else. However, given that she knows I know she's poly, but doesn't have any reason to think I'm not, I'm concerned she might say yes without mentioning to me that she already has another partner, and I'd go forward not knowing. Also, even if she is single, I'll need to make it clear to her that I'd only want to date her if it's an exclusive thing.

I assume the best thing to do is just to ask her out, and if she says yes, to add something like "I should explain that I'm not poly, so if you're seeing anybody else right now then we shouldn't do this, and if we're going to date, I'd need it to be just you and me, is that okay with you?". Is that an okay way to handle it, or would even addressing the possibility of going past a first date that early on be too forward?

And by the way, before anyone says anything, I understand that the possibility of a polyamorous person being willing to be in a monogamous relationship is somewhat remote. I'm going to try anyway, because I know there is a chance, however small, and I'm good at handling rejection, so I have basically nothing to lose. Anyway, that being known, all advice on how to handle this would be appreciated. Thanks

[Aedilred]

I assume the best thing to do is just to ask her out, and if she says yes, to add something like "I should explain that I'm not poly, so if you're seeing anybody else right now then we shouldn't do this, and if we're going to date, I'd need it to be just you and me, is that okay with you?". Is that an okay way to handle it, or would even addressing the possibility of going past a first date that early on be too forward?

This seems perfectly sensible to me. I shouldn't imagine she would assume you were poly; poly people are not excessively common. Although you never know. But it's definitely worth making mention of it at an early stage, yes. Whether it's too forward for a pre-first-date conversation... I don't think so, particularly. Better to clear it up to start with, otherwise if it turns out she's not ok with it it's just going to cause more problems (especially if the first date goes well otherwise) and apart from anything else it'd just be a waste of both your time.

[Amaril]

This seems perfectly sensible to me. I shouldn't imagine she would assume you were poly; poly people are not excessively common. Although you never know. But it's definitely worth making mention of it at an early stage, yes. Whether it's too forward for a pre-first-date conversation... I don't think so, particularly. Better to clear it up to start with, otherwise if it turns out she's not ok with it it's just going to cause more problems (especially if the first date goes well otherwise) and apart from anything else it'd just be a waste of both your time.

My thoughts exactly. Given how important an issue it is, I don't think it'd be at all inappropriate to bring up right away. My only concern is that given how young we both are, and how intimidating relationship stuff can be for girls her age, she might be uncomfortable with addressing something serious like that, whether or not she should be. Of course, if she is, we shouldn't be dating regardless. So yeah, I guess I'll just do that, thanks.

[Glass Mouse]

I haven't posted anything on here for years, I think. I mostly just pop in once a week to see if there's a new comic up.

I feel a need to tell my story, but I can't tell it to any of my friends or family, so you guys get to be the audience. I don't know if any advice would help or not, but feel free to give it.

I don't have much advice, but I do have all the sympathy in the world. I'm sorry it happened and that you're hurting, and please find someone to talk to - a professional, a trusted friend, a family member, anyone. No one should grabble that alone.
And dude, it is OKAY to feel and to say "I am furious and hurting, but I do love you and wish you the best, so I'm gonna extricate myself from your lives because this hurts too much". It's okay to feel all those conflicting things, and most listeners will understand that. You don't have to simplify or edit your story when you tell the professional/trusted friend/whomever.

Good wind.

I just worry that such a direct approach, or at least the way I did things might send the wrong message about my intent. What would be a good way to say "I find you attractive and interesting and would like to spend time with you with the possibility of building towards a relationship if everything clicks" that wouldn't be mistaken for "I would like you in my bed tonight"?

Maybe this is just me and my culture being weird, but is there that much difference between "potential friend" and "potential squeezebuddy"? Especially since it sounds like you tend to go for "friendship which might or might not turn into something more".

So why not just go for the friendship? And then have a "three conversations, then evaluate" for yourself - meaning that if no boyfriend has been mentioned in three conversations, and everything clicks, try to go for something more.

Or is your problem that you're not sure how to do the "friendly without playah overtones" thing?

My thoughts exactly. Given how important an issue it is, I don't think it'd be at all inappropriate to bring up right away. My only concern is that given how young we both are, and how intimidating relationship stuff can be for girls her age, she might be uncomfortable with addressing something serious like that, whether or not she should be. Of course, if she is, we shouldn't be dating regardless. So yeah, I guess I'll just do that, thanks.

I'm thinking that a girl who identifies as poly has done enough relationship-thinking to be able to have an honest and open conversation about compability. But maybe that's my unshakable faith in humanity seeping through

[rs2excelsior]

Maybe this is just me and my culture being weird, but is there that much difference between "potential friend" and "potential squeezebuddy"? Especially since it sounds like you tend to go for "friendship which might or might not turn into something more".

It really depends on the people involved, but where I'm from (I don't know how applicable that is, given I don't know where Summoner is) there's generally a difference between potential "friends," "friends with benefits" (for lack of a better term), and "relationship" that generally gets defined fairly early on and is hard to change later. From my experience, at least, as someone who's gone into things hoping for "potential relationship" where she saw it as "potential friends," that generally winds up as "friends" with basically no chance of turning into a relationship. But that might just be me.

That being said:
TheSummoner: In terms of avoiding the "I want you in my bed tonight" vibe, I'd say asking her to go do [mutually interesting activity] at [definite time in the near future] would probably be your best bet. Better if its somewhere public, especially if you don't know her but so well yet ("let's go see a movie" rather than "come to my place and we'll watch a movie," for example). As far as differentiating between "potential relationship" and "potential friends," I can't really help you there. If you figure that one out, let me know, will you?

Amaril: Not something I have any experience with, but if that kind of thing is left to sit and then becomes a problem later on, it seems like it'd just be worse. I'd say it's better to go ahead and clear anything on those lines up beforehand.

And an issue of my own. Not really looking for advice here, just want to get it off my chest. A while back, I said I had started chatting with someone on OKCupid. We chatted basically every evening for a couple of weeks even made tentative plans to meet up after school started again, up until a few days ago. I logged on and brought up the message page, and it said she'd deleted her account. The last time we'd talked she hadn't given me any indication anything was wrong, so I have no idea whether it was something I did or didn't do (or if she blocked me specifically, because I don't know what that looks like), or whether it had nothing at all to do with me, but regardless, I now have no way to contact her again. So there goes that

On the other hand, it does simplify matters a bit. There was someone at my school I was interested in, so I don't have to figure out which one to pursue, at least.

[TheSummoner]

@Amaril - The fact that she was comfortable enough with it to tell you that she's poly should also mean she'd be comfortable enough discussing the fact that you aren't. If she's willing to give it a try, go for it. If not, well, you know what you want and if she can't offer it, at least you know.

Maybe this is just me and my culture being weird, but is there that much difference between "potential friend" and "potential squeezebuddy"? Especially since it sounds like you tend to go for "friendship which might or might not turn into something more".

So why not just go for the friendship? And then have a "three conversations, then evaluate" for yourself - meaning that if no boyfriend has been mentioned in three conversations, and everything clicks, try to go for something more.

Or is your problem that you're not sure how to do the "friendly without playah overtones" thing?

No, not really... There's isn't much difference, at least initially. The distinction is that I feel like I need more than that. I'm certainly not opposed to making female friends, but it isn't what I'm after. If friend alone was enough, I wouldn't be in this situation. I've got friends and it doesn't help... Though at this point, I'm having trouble considering them very good friends. As I mentioned in my rant, if I have any contact with them at all, it's because I took the effort to get in contact. No one calls or sends text messages or whatever and half the time when I do, there's no answer or response. Maybe the problem is me.

That thought aside, I do sorta go for "friendship which might or might not turn into something more," but that's because it's unrealistic for me to expect more from someone I just met. What I want is more along the lines of "friendship and something more," but I fully realize something more doesn't happen right away. Maybe "friendship with the potential for something more" would be a better way to phrase it. I'm not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well or just repeating more or less the same thing at this point.

The appeal in getting things out in the open is that it saves a lot of frustration. If someone is taken or isn't interested, I don't build up false hope. I don't feel a connection only to realize it was purely platonic later and I don't have to deal with the disappointment of having my hopes shattered. Again and again. The concern is that doing so might be shooting myself in the foot in a sense. The possibility of miscommunication turning someone away (or attracting someone interested in something I'm not), or even someone just not caring for being so direct.

Looking back, the last few girls I've felt any sort of real connection with and had any big disappointment with, I felt the connection after just one conversation. It was a fairly long conversation each time, and the girl seemed as interested in what I had to say as I was in talking to her, but it was still just one conversation. I guess I'm just a sucker when a pretty girl whose into the same things I am actually finds me interesting and I tend to read too much into it. Not even sure where I was going with this anymore. It just helps to actually type it out.

[arguskos]

I am struggling. I know I've no right to post here any longer (not being an active member of the forum for... man, a year? More? It does that to you) but I need to speak and no one off-line is willing to listen. Listen, if you wish, or not. It matters little in the end.

Spoiler

Show

For the last 17 months I have been in a complex, ever-changing, tumultuous relationship with a girl (I use this word deliberately instead of woman). I do love her, more than perhaps I realized at first, but I struggle with her because she is young. In age, she's a mere 5 years my junior (25 to 20), not a big gap. In mind though, she is so childishly young it is insanely and maddeningly frustrating. I lack perspective with her, despite now being her oldest friend and among the people on this earth who know her best. I have been with her while she finished college. I have been with her while she realized that she wasn't into monogamy. I have been there for the worst moments of her life and for the best. (This entitles me to nothing, obviously. I say it merely so you understand my experience with her.)

My struggle comes from this: I know her better than she knows herself. She has a deep-seated and fundamental hatred of herself, but will not accept or admit to it. I figured out that she was poly before she did, by almost a year. She has shown a continual desire to go nowhere and not advance at all. She doesn't *do* anything beyond try and ignore life's realities as hard as possible and make reckless choices (ex. she got a cat on a whim. She has no job, no income stream, her housemates are allergic, she is allergic, and it's a violation of their lease.). She struggles with mental illness, a real and present challenge in her life, but though she acknowledges her challenges she takes no actions to improve, instead trusting me to clean her up during her breakdowns (which are frequent and serious).

I care deeply for her and believe her when she says she cares the same for me. The trouble is that I am trying to better myself and my life, while she is not. I fight with clinical depression and cannot afford medicines or therapy, so I try and fight back any way I can. I do whatever I can. She struggles with depression as well, but does nothing. Instead, she asks her boyfriends (of which I am one) to shoulder the burden of her mood swings. I cannot do this forever, nor do I particularly believe I should have to.

Spoiler: Aside

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I actually have an issue with wanting things from my partner in relationships. This isn't really relevant, but it's on my mind so ****, let's talk about it. My issue stems from one of selfishness. It strikes me as terribly selfish to want things, anything. By asking for something, it puts me in a bizarre situation where I am acknowledging that I have desires, but desiring something that has yet to be earned makes one selfish. Selfishness is a sin (not in the religious sense, but the secular "bad thing" sense) and is not to be indulged in. Yet, to be human is to desire, is it not? A terrible catch-22 situation, one with no resolution and one I can't get out of.

I see no solution that avoids heartbreak. Perhaps the situation admits of no solution, but that seems like a "God moves in mysterious ways" argument (i.e. a cop-out). Perhaps I merely need a fresh set of eyes. Or, and this is most likely, none of this really matters in the end, for my actions are irrelevant. Only the other matters.

[Jay R]

So this morning I got a fun text from someone that I thought I was developing a friendship with and it essentially said that she'd never felt comfortable hanging out with me because I'm older and she feels we never should have met. Oh, and to add to the injury, she made sure to mention that she thought I was a good person and a nice guy. So basically she just thinks I'm pathetic. Too pathetic for her to hang out with.

No, she doesn't think you're pathetic; her words just don't justify that conclusion.

This isn't about you. She's looking for somebody her own age. That's all. The only judgment about you is your age doesn't match what she's looking for. Nothing else.

Shrug and move on.

[Killer Angel]

Given that the thread is about relationships, I would like to give a pause to the "woes" side.... so, I'm glad to share with you the fact that today is my tenth wedding anniversary.

[Kalmageddon]

Given that the thread is about relationships, I would like to give a pause to the "woes" side.... so, I'm glad to share with you the fact that today is my tenth wedding anniversary.

Congratulations! It's good to see a relationship that works, once in a while!

[Karoht]

Given that the thread is about relationships, I would like to give a pause to the "woes" side.... so, I'm glad to share with you the fact that today is my tenth wedding anniversary.

My fiancee and I are getting married on the 14th of september. Our 10 year anniversary is on the 8th of september.
We did it all completely backwards. 10 year anniversary and then the wedding.

[Hallavast]

arguskos: You are more than welcome here. You're here to give a story and seek advice. Others are here to seek a story and give advice. There is harmony in that exchange. You are by no means infringing on anyone here. This is all voluntary, and you should feel free to seek help in solving your dilemma. I will not talk about sins, but selfishness is not a bad thing. It is almost impossible to make other people happy when you're not happy with yourself. So altruism and selfishness go hand in glove, in my experience. You can't have one without the other. You deserve to be okay.

[Sholos]

No, she doesn't think you're pathetic; her words just don't justify that conclusion.

This isn't about you. She's looking for somebody her own age. That's all. The only judgment about you is your age doesn't match what she's looking for. Nothing else.

Shrug and move on.

I didn't post the exact words she used, but there was definitely more than a hint of "I think you're kind of pathetic" going on. And who restricts their friends purely to people right around their own age? This wasn't even a romantic thing, which I would have understood more on the age thing. This was very much a "You're not where I think you should be in life and if you were we wouldn't have met so I don't want to associate with you anymore" thing. Which given that there was no prior hints to her feelings on this at all and indeed several larger signs to the opposite... Let's just say that the other people in my life who know more about the situation were just as surprised at her actions.

But yes, I've decided I don't have time to care about what she thinks if that's how she's going to treat me.

[arguskos]

arguskos: You are more than welcome here. You're here to give a story and seek advice. Others are here to seek a story and give advice. There is harmony in that exchange. You are by no means infringing on anyone here. This is all voluntary, and you should feel free to seek help in solving your dilemma. I will not talk about sins, but selfishness is not a bad thing. It is almost impossible to make other people happy when you're not happy with yourself. So altruism and selfishness go hand in glove, in my experience. You can't have one without the other. You deserve to be okay.

(Emphasis mine. Thank you for your response, Hallavast. It is appreciated.)

On the first point, that seems true enough. I will not argue with you here, beyond a quiet statement that happiness does not seem necessary, only contentedness. However, I suspect that's what you were getting at, so I think we're likely on a similar enough page on that point to move on with little challenge.

On the second point, I disagree almost entirely. Altruism and selfishness are opposed concepts. Concepts in opposition cannot, generally speaking, exist in harmony. Usually, these kinds of oppositions destroy each other. By being truly altruistic, you discard selfishness and become something greater than you were. This is why those who are highly altruistic are often called selfless: because they are beyond selfishness. It seems to me that they cannot exist together. If I am selfish, then I am not altruistic. This seems to be a bad thing to my mind.

To return to the original point, this is why I don't particularly believe that I should be able to ask for things in a relationship. By asking, I show a lack of altruistic motive. I wouldn't want to date a selfish person. Why should my partner allow or expect that behavior from me? But, the human truth is that I *do* want things, thus making me selfish. And so the cycle goes. I have no solution. :-/

And, on your very last point: that has yet to be determined. Deserve is a strong word and I am unsure I have earned that right yet. Until I accomplish something worthy of recognition, the right to happiness is not in my grasp, as I see things. Perhaps I am blinded by my own internal prejudices though. It is hard to see clearly.

[Grytorm]

Hello. I feel depressed and part of what I feel depressed about sometimes is that I have never dated anyone and have a pessimistic view of dating in the future. From recent threads on the forum I have started to worry that I would not go into a relationship with the motives of supporting someone else and focus to much on having someone willing to listen to me and be interested in me. I don't know what I really want to say here. Perhaps some advice on how to not be unhappy anymore is what I seek.

[Coidzor]

I am struggling. I know I've no right to post here any longer (not being an active member of the forum for... man, a year? More? It does that to you) but I need to speak and no one off-line is willing to listen. Listen, if you wish, or not. It matters little in the end.

Spoiler

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For the last 17 months I have been in a complex, ever-changing, tumultuous relationship with a girl (I use this word deliberately instead of woman). I do love her, more than perhaps I realized at first, but I struggle with her because she is young. In age, she's a mere 5 years my junior (25 to 20), not a big gap. In mind though, she is so childishly young it is insanely and maddeningly frustrating. I lack perspective with her, despite now being her oldest friend and among the people on this earth who know her best. I have been with her while she finished college. I have been with her while she realized that she wasn't into monogamy. I have been there for the worst moments of her life and for the best. (This entitles me to nothing, obviously. I say it merely so you understand my experience with her.)

My struggle comes from this: I know her better than she knows herself. She has a deep-seated and fundamental hatred of herself, but will not accept or admit to it. I figured out that she was poly before she did, by almost a year. She has shown a continual desire to go nowhere and not advance at all. She doesn't *do* anything beyond try and ignore life's realities as hard as possible and make reckless choices (ex. she got a cat on a whim. She has no job, no income stream, her housemates are allergic, she is allergic, and it's a violation of their lease.). She struggles with mental illness, a real and present challenge in her life, but though she acknowledges her challenges she takes no actions to improve, instead trusting me to clean her up during her breakdowns (which are frequent and serious).

I care deeply for her and believe her when she says she cares the same for me. The trouble is that I am trying to better myself and my life, while she is not. I fight with clinical depression and cannot afford medicines or therapy, so I try and fight back any way I can. I do whatever I can. She struggles with depression as well, but does nothing. Instead, she asks her boyfriends (of which I am one) to shoulder the burden of her mood swings. I cannot do this forever, nor do I particularly believe I should have to.

Spoiler: Aside

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I actually have an issue with wanting things from my partner in relationships. This isn't really relevant, but it's on my mind so ****, let's talk about it. My issue stems from one of selfishness. It strikes me as terribly selfish to want things, anything. By asking for something, it puts me in a bizarre situation where I am acknowledging that I have desires, but desiring something that has yet to be earned makes one selfish. Selfishness is a sin (not in the religious sense, but the secular "bad thing" sense) and is not to be indulged in. Yet, to be human is to desire, is it not? A terrible catch-22 situation, one with no resolution and one I can't get out of.

I see no solution that avoids heartbreak. Perhaps the situation admits of no solution, but that seems like a "God moves in mysterious ways" argument (i.e. a cop-out). Perhaps I merely need a fresh set of eyes. Or, and this is most likely, none of this really matters in the end, for my actions are irrelevant. Only the other matters.

Sounds like you don't need her and in fact actively need to drop her. Also that you're not actually helping her anyway, so there's not even room for you to really have any kind of martyr complex. So... drop her like she's hot, move on, and get her toxicity out of your system.

What's this malarkey about earning something from partners in a relation**** though? That doesn't sound quite right.

[arguskos]

Sounds like you don't need her and in fact actively need to drop her. Also that you're not actually helping her anyway, so there's not even room for you to really have any kind of martyr complex. So... drop her like she's hot, move on, and get her toxicity out of your system.

Perhaps you are right. It is hard to see clearly.

What's this malarkey about earning something from partners in a relation**** though? That doesn't sound quite right.

I... do not know how to explain this beyond what I have already said. I feel that I am not entitled to anything from my partners. Instead, I must earn their time, affection, love, etc. How these things are earned depends on the partner in question, of course. It just seems clear to me that this is how things should work.

[Coidzor]

I... do not know how to explain this beyond what I have already said. I feel that I am not entitled to anything from my partners. Instead, I must earn their time, affection, love, etc. How these things are earned depends on the partner in question, of course. It just seems clear to me that this is how things should work.

Yeah, that's probably part of your problem, right there. Thinking you have to earn things rather than them being a natural part of caring about someone else... That just sounds like it'll lead to problems with all aspects of the relationship.

[arguskos]

Yeah, that's probably part of your problem, right there. Thinking you have to earn things rather than them being a natural part of caring about someone else... That just sounds like it'll lead to problems with all aspects of the relationship.

It doesn't make sense otherwise, though. To get money, one must work. To get fame, one must achieve. To get love, one must earn it as well, no? It makes sense.

Why does changing one's relationship status suddenly entitle one to being given things? It doesn't compute for me. Perhaps I'm just not able to understand, but I do not. Could you explain further?

[Coidzor]

It doesn't make sense otherwise, though. To get money, one must work. To get fame, one must achieve. To get love, one must earn it as well, no? It makes sense.

Why does changing one's relationship status suddenly entitle one to being given things? It doesn't compute for me. Perhaps I'm just not able to understand, but I do not. Could you explain further?

It's a very mercenary approach to relationships. Part of the idea of love is that it's freely given once it's there. And it doesn't get there by being *earned* and the idea of having to earn it is part of a bunch of problematic narratives that encourage sexual harassment.

I mean, if they don't reciprocate your feelings, the answer isn't to work harder for such a cruel taskmaster, it's to find someone who actually cares about you.