Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*

[CarpeGuitarrem]

My wife mentioned how awesome Black Widow was in this movie. A skilled normal able to fight essentially a super-soldier and hold ground for a while. We both agree she was practically stealing the movie spotlight from Cap. several times (plus, nice to see her on a movie poster that didn't try to show her front and back at the same time).

Not just in an action way, either; she was definitely the co-star. It wasn't Captain America: Winter Soldier, it was Captain America: Steve and Natasha's Road Trip.

[DigoDragon]

Not just in an action way, either; she was definitely the co-star. It wasn't Captain America: Winter Soldier, it was Captain America: Steve and Natasha's Road Trip.

That sounds like the perfect sub-title for this film. Those two worked really well together.

[Sith_Happens]

If you're actually going to make it the subtitle it's missing a certain key word.

Captain America: Steve and Natasha's Super Road Trip

Much better.

[Psyren]

One of the best parts of the movie to me was the running gag of Widow trying to set Cap up with assorted SHIELD ladies. She even does this while they interrogate a Hydra agent.

[ryuplaneswalker]

If you're actually going to make it the subtitle it's missing a certain key word.

Captain America: Steve and Natasha's Super Road Trip

Much better.

Captain and Widow Go to white castle!

[The Glyphstone]

The next movie will be Captain America 3: Steve and Natasha'a European Vacation.

[kpenguin]

With Natasha premiering in IM2 and then co-starring in Cap 2, I kinda hope she ends up being a part of the third Thor movie's cast in the next phase.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

On a more serious note, I can't see them not launching a solo Widow movie after this, both because of the plot implications for Natasha and because Scarlett really got a chance to make the character shine.

[Olinser]

With Natasha premiering in IM2 and then co-starring in Cap 2, I kinda hope she ends up being a part of the third Thor movie's cast in the next phase.

I desperately hope the opposite.

To be blunt, Black Widow starting to appear in everything Marvel related is really starting to smack of, "OMG MUST INSERT SCARLET JOHANSSON SEX APPEAL".

That kind of thinking leads to poorly thought out story lines and appearances that serve no purpose other than to try and smash boobs into a script.

After her initial appearance on the boat mission, I didn't particularly like her role in Cap 2. Agent 13 could have substituted for her with very little difficulty (except, arguably, for her first appearance on the boat).

[Aotrs Commander]

I desperately hope the opposite.

To be blunt, Black Widow starting to appear in everything Marvel related is really starting to smack of, "OMG MUST INSERT SCARLET JOHANSSON SEX APPEAL".

That kind of thinking leads to poorly thought out story lines and appearances that serve no purpose other than to try and smash boobs into a script.

After her initial appearance on the boat mission, I didn't particularly like her role in Cap 2. Agent 13 could have substituted for her with very little difficulty (except, arguably, for her first appearance on the boat).

As the only current female member of the team, though, that's kind of a necessity for anyone other than noncombatant support character. (Would be nice if they had brought in Wasp or Miss Marvel (or whatever her current name is...) Wanda is clearly going to be in the next movie anyway - well maybe Cap 3 if not before (though after M-Day, I don't see her as anything other than a villain or an insane danger that needs to be dealt with, personally.) Don't know of many other female Avengers, though, but I am more an X-Man person.



Oh, I noticed they named dropped Steven Strange - I thought there was a half-plan to do a kovie nin one of the later phases at one point, but nothing's concrete now, apparently.





It is still a crying tragedy Jubilee does not have a movie. Much as I loathe it, they've even got the vampire issue as a selling point. No sense of Best character, these people.

And Shogo would add a nice dimension too... Still stupid they couldn't make her biological son.

[BRC]

I desperately hope the opposite.

To be blunt, Black Widow starting to appear in everything Marvel related is really starting to smack of, "OMG MUST INSERT SCARLET JOHANSSON SEX APPEAL".

That kind of thinking leads to poorly thought out story lines and appearances that serve no purpose other than to try and smash boobs into a script.

After her initial appearance on the boat mission, I didn't particularly like her role in Cap 2. Agent 13 could have substituted for her with very little difficulty (except, arguably, for her first appearance on the boat).

Black Widow has appeared in exactly 3 things in the MCU.

1) Iron Man 2, where she was introduced.

2) The Avengers, where she was, An Avenger.

3) Captain America 2, where she was a major character, and the Avenger most at home in the Bourne-esque Spy thriller that was The Winter Soldier.

That's hardly "Must Insert Her into Everything".
By contrast, Pepper Potts has been in Four movies.

As for "They could have replaced her with Agent Carter", not really, no. While their skillsets are similar, there is a distinct difference between Superheroes and Non-Superheroes when you're talking about comic books. Black Widow is a Superhero, she's got name recognition, established relationships with other characters, a past, ect. Since she is a "Superhero" (Admittedly, a somewhat arbitrary distinction), the Audience is primed to expect greater feats of heroism and ability from her, they are also primed to trust her more. A good deal of the movie only works because Steve Rodgers knows Black Widow and trusts both her and her capabilities. Replacing her with Agent 13 could theoretically have worked, but it wouldn't have worked nearly as well, since they would need to build up both Cap and the Audience's respect for her and her abilities, rather than using the pre-existing foundation from The Avengers.

That would be like saying "You could have replaced The Falcon with a random helicopter pilot". Yes you could have, but it wouldn't have been the same movie.

They could have replaced The Winter Soldier with a random HYDRA Superassassin, they could have replaced Nick Fury with an especially charismatic talking cactus if they wanted to. That does not mean it would be the same movie.

[Benthesquid]

I desperately hope the opposite.

To be blunt, Black Widow starting to appear in everything Marvel related is really starting to smack of, "OMG MUST INSERT SCARLET JOHANSSON SEX APPEAL".

That kind of thinking leads to poorly thought out story lines and appearances that serve no purpose other than to try and smash boobs into a script.

After her initial appearance on the boat mission, I didn't particularly like her role in Cap 2. Agent 13 could have substituted for her with very little difficulty (except, arguably, for her first appearance on the boat).

I'm wondering if you watched the same film I did. Just offhand, having Black Widow in the film served three purposes other than sex appeal.

1- It continued the trend of making the Marvel films feel like part of a cohesive universe (the same reason Phil Coulson was in Thor- I notice nobody suggested he was only there for sex appeal).

2. Natasha, as a character previously established as having a dark past full of morally questionable or outright villainous black-ops, and questing for redemption, works well as a contrast to the corruption of SHIELD.

3. Natasha, previously established as an expert in manipulation and infiltration, makes a good counterpart to Steve Rogers and his Truth Punching powers.

Honestly, they put a female in a prominent supporting role and they didn't feel required to kill her to motivate the male hero, or shoe horn in a romance plot. I'd say they're doing pretty damn well.

[Aotrs Commander]

Honestly, they put a female in a prominent supporting role and they didn't feel required to kill her to motivate the male hero, or shoe horn in a romance plot. I'd say they're doing pretty damn well.

It's so sad that I didn't even realise that until you said it (sad in the sense that it is a thing that is noticable in it's absense) . I guess I'm so used to it from the other superhero media (the cartoons, SOME of the comics...), so I didn't notice it like I did in, say Pacific Rim, but yeah... Tragic though it is a thing that can be remarked on, they deserve some kudos for that in her appearances.

[theNater]

It is still a crying tragedy Jubilee does not have a movie.

There was a made for TV movie in 1996 called Generation X with Jubilee as a main character. It was pretty awful, though, so I'm not sure if it counts.

[Aotrs Commander]

There was a made for TV movie in 1996 called Generation X with Jubilee as a main character. It was pretty awful, though, so I'm not sure if it counts.

I know.

It doesn't... I think I liked it then, when I first saw it, as a desparate hope that we would get More Jubilee out of it. In the experience of latter years... No. Really, the only characters that were even close were Banshee and maybe Emma. Jubilee... was better than the rest, but still a pale shade.

[Legato Endless]

I desperately hope the opposite.

To be blunt, Black Widow starting to appear in everything Marvel related is really starting to smack of, "OMG MUST INSERT SCARLET JOHANSSON SEX APPEAL".

That kind of thinking leads to poorly thought out story lines and appearances that serve no purpose other than to try and smash boobs into a script.

After her initial appearance on the boat mission, I didn't particularly like her role in Cap 2. Agent 13 could have substituted for her with very little difficulty (except, arguably, for her first appearance on the boat).

I'll join the chorus of naysayers to this. Frankly, Widow had a very obvious role to Cap. She's his foil. Agent 13 couldn't have substituted for this as effectively, because as Agent Carter's niece, she's far less a study in contrasts. She was executed well enough in that sense. It certainly worked better than the action girl status they foisted upon Pepper's character in the climax of Iron Man 3.

[DigoDragon]

Honestly, they put a female in a prominent supporting role and they didn't feel required to kill her to motivate the male hero, or shoe horn in a romance plot. I'd say they're doing pretty damn well.

Also, she was saving others about as often as she was getting saved, so yeah I think they wrote her pretty darn well so far. Heck, she saved herself near the end of the movie. Bonus points for that!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm wondering if you watched the same film I did. Just offhand, having Black Widow in the film served three purposes other than sex appeal.

And unless I'm remembering wrong, the catsuit only came out for what, the very beginning of the movie? As opposed to the prior two movies where it was her only wardrobe piece.

[MLai]

I have a question regarding the little bugzapper that Robert Redford made everyone on the council wear, when they entered the building...

At first, Redford used it to make Johanssen into a hostage. "Drop the gun Jackson or I'll zap Scarlett."
But then, Johanssen just said screw it, and zapped herself, right? So Jackson would be free to shoot Redford, right?

But it didn't hurt her at all. It just gave her a mild shock or something. So how come everyone else who wore the bugzapper seems to have died?

Or, if Scarlett knew she was wearing body armor or something so she wouldn't be killed by the bugzapper, why did she wait so long? That almost gave enough time for Hydra to succeed.

[BWR]

I have a question regarding the little bugzapper that Robert Redford made everyone on the council wear, when they entered the building...

At first, Redford used it to make Johanssen into a hostage. "Drop the gun Jackson or I'll zap Scarlett."
But then, Johanssen just said screw it, and zapped herself, right? So Jackson would be free to shoot Redford, right?

But it didn't hurt her at all. It just gave her a mild shock or something. So how come everyone else who wore the bugzapper seems to have died?

Or, if Scarlett knew she was wearing body armor or something so she wouldn't be killed by the bugzapper, why did she wait so long? That almost gave enough time for Hydra to succeed.

I think you're mixing up two zappers. BW used her own little electroshock doohicky on herself, the same kind she used to zap WS's arm earlier. This knocked her out and apparantly fried Redford's bugzapper.

[LaZodiac]

I have a question regarding the little bugzapper that Robert Redford made everyone on the council wear, when they entered the building...

At first, Redford used it to make Johanssen into a hostage. "Drop the gun Jackson or I'll zap Scarlett."
But then, Johanssen just said screw it, and zapped herself, right? So Jackson would be free to shoot Redford, right?

But it didn't hurt her at all. It just gave her a mild shock or something. So how come everyone else who wore the bugzapper seems to have died?

Or, if Scarlett knew she was wearing body armor or something so she wouldn't be killed by the bugzapper, why did she wait so long? That almost gave enough time for Hydra to succeed.

Well...

I think you're mixing up two zappers. BW used her own little electroshock doohicky on herself, the same kind she used to zap WS's arm earlier. This knocked her out and apparantly fried Redford's bugzapper.

Exactly this. Fun fact, the thing used on the World Council is implied to burn right down to the sternum. So like...ow. Thankfully, zappy grenades are less painful.

[Hopeless]

I think you're mixing up two zappers. BW used her own little electroshock doohicky on herself, the same kind she used to zap WS's arm earlier. This knocked her out and apparantly fried Redford's bugzapper.

I thought she used it as an emp thereby neutralising the name badge and Redford realised that when he saw his mobile declared it was rebooting itself as a result...

[dehro]

they could have replaced Nick Fury with an especially charismatic talking cactus if they wanted to. That does not mean it would be the same movie.

I dunno.. McPedro doesn't seem to carry the same weight

[DigoDragon]

I thought she used it as an emp thereby neutralising the name badge and Redford realised that when he saw his mobile declared it was rebooting itself as a result...

It was a bit of both the way I saw it. Sort of like the idea of "Shoot the Hostage": Black Widow zaps herself with her electrical device which knocks her out. Redford now would have to carry her since she's dead-weight, but because he was so close, the current also zapped his phone, forcing it to reboot.

[theNater]

I know.

It doesn't... I think I liked it then, when I first saw it, as a desparate hope that we would get More Jubilee out of it. In the experience of latter years... No. Really, the only characters that were even close were Banshee and maybe Emma. Jubilee... was better than the rest, but still a pale shade.

Fair enough. Thought it was worth mentioning, just in case.

[Psyren]

I desperately hope the opposite.

To be blunt, Black Widow starting to appear in everything Marvel related is really starting to smack of, "OMG MUST INSERT SCARLET JOHANSSON SEX APPEAL".

Thor has Natalie Portman so I think you have little to worry about on that front.

After her initial appearance on the boat mission, I didn't particularly like her role in Cap 2. Agent 13 could have substituted for her with very little difficulty (except, arguably, for her first appearance on the boat).

Disagree, she was phenomenal. Her status as badass normal meant she could play with the big boys, but there was still tension - e.g. when she had to face off against the WS alone, or when the missile was headed for the bunker. We know that Cap would easily survive both of those incidents, but BW being in danger too kept the audience invested/afraid, particularly after the stunt they pulled with Fury.

Furthermore, she wasn't just a pretty face - she had a worthwhile purpose to the plot. She was the real spy, and Cap was her bodyguard - having Cap do stuff like trace a thumbdrive-borne AI to its hiding place or disguise himself as a council member to get close to the head of Hydra just would not have worked. You need somebody underhanded and sneaky to pull that stuff off - a rogue, not a paladin.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Eh... the thing with Fury was kind of a toss up, I doubt anyone that has some non-movie knowledge about Fury really thought he was dead, I mean faking his death is kind of a recurring theme with him, though I still want my Life Model Decoy.

[Connington]

After her initial appearance on the boat mission, I didn't particularly like her role in Cap 2. Agent 13 could have substituted for her with very little difficulty (except, arguably, for her first appearance on the boat).

Aside from all the objections already raised, using Agent 13 would have meant a fairly standard romantic subplot. I really liked having a Marvel blockbuster that substituted a close, platonic friendship between a man and a woman for the usual damsel in distress relationship.

[MLai]

Hey, I totally thought Fury was dead. I was thinking, "Oh ****, Jackson doesn't want to do comics movies anymore!"

I mean hey, if they could kill Patrick Stewart as Professor X they could kill anybody.
(Who the **** thought that was a good idea??)

[Psyren]

Aside from all the objections already raised, using Agent 13 would have meant a fairly standard romantic subplot. I really liked having a Marvel blockbuster that substituted a close, platonic friendship between a man and a woman for the usual damsel in distress relationship.

This too, very much. What a refreshing change of pace having a male and female lead in a tense situation that didn't want to bump uglies every 5 seconds. And BW's teasing really gave her an older sister vibe.

I mean hey, if they could kill Patrick Stewart as Professor X they could kill anybody.
(Who the **** thought that was a good idea??)

I take it you didn't see the end-credits scene of X3, X:Origins Wolverine or the Days of Future Past trailers?